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Rape and Abuse If you or someone you know is being abused in any way and you need support or advice, don't hesitate to reach out to us here.

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I think my friend is lying about it (long rant) - November 8th 2017, 08:04 AM

This thread has been labeled as triggering, particularly on the subject of rape or abuse, by the original poster or by a Moderator. The contents of this thread might therefore not be suitable for certain sensitive users. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

(I hope I'm a good enough storyteller to make this HORRENDOUSLY LONG POST somewhat interesting to read. But if not, the TL;DR is that one of my close friends has lied about many obvious, but huge, things in the past and I feel like I'm the only "sane" person who doesn't believe him. But now, I am suspicious that he's also lying about being raped, and I feel both horrible and completely pissed about it.)

First of all, I just want to make it clear that I feel so horrible about even having these suspicions in the first place. In almost all other cases, I would never feel like I even have the authority to determine the credibility of or criticize someone elses rape story. My goal here isn't necessarily to prove that my friend is or isn't a liar, I would just really like a few unbiased opinions on this. This has seriously been getting to me lately, and I feel like I need some type of closure or sound advice that I can hold on to in order to get past this and move on.

Let me start at the beginning. I was raped March 10th, 2016. By a "friend" who I had been fooling around with but made it clear I never wanted to go all the way with him and lose my virginity to him. My friend, Jay, was trying desperately to get in my pants at the time. He would say stuff like, "Leave that guy, he hits you and only uses you. I won't ever hurt you if you just have sex with me." (Obviously that's not word-for-word, but that seriously was the gist of it.) He was a great manipulator and he almost convinced me to do stuff with him, which still makes me want to vomit to this day. He even actually fucking kissed me. It's no wonder I'm so suicidal. All jokes aside, I was raped on a Thursday. Jay wanted to "hang out" after school on Friday, and for some reason I agreed. But after I was raped, I knew I couldn't even think of being around anybody. I still had to take time to accept what happened to me. I wasn't going to tell anyone.
But when I cancelled my plans with Jay, over text, he demanded to know why. I told him something bad happened with the guy I had left with and Jay's very next message was actually, "Wow, he raped you, didn't he?" When I confirmed that, the very first thing I heard from the very first person who knew about the rape was: "Dude, I told you so. You should've just listened to me and this never would've happened."
Now, obviously I know that for a rape victim, those thoughts of guilt and regretting every single decision that led up to the moment of the rape are already racing through our heads. "I told you so" was one of the worst things I could've heard at that moment and it crushed me. That very moment, when I received that message, that was the moment that I truly broke down and felt so alone in everything. At that point, I felt like I could already see the path ahead of me, of just nobody supporting me or being there for me during this time. I had this sense of "I have to do this on my own." And so, for 7 whole months after the rape, I dealt with it all alone. I did try telling more people about it, but I got the exact same type of comments. Some of my "FRIENDS" even thought it was appropriate to respond with rape jokes or by laughing at me.

Honestly, I still haven't forgiven Jay for that comment. I thought he was my friend, who I could trust and cry on his shoulder. And he pretty much just spat in my face and told me it was all my fault, and that I should've just gone and fucked him instead when I had the chance.
Now that it has been almost two years since the rape, I have made a lot of recovery and healing from that. I stopped cutting and have pretty much been able to leave that behind me. I really have no other choice but to leave it behind, because right now I need to focus on school and work. It still gets to me during the quiet times though, like when school is cancelled or it's a light work week. But by now, I obviously know the process of healing from rape, for me, at least. I know how deeply it affected my life, my sex life, my romantic life, everything. I'm actually more surprised by the little things about me that it affected and changed forever.
But most importantly, I know how to treat another rape victim.

Lets jump to last week, in class, when my friend asked Jay where he grew up. Jay said, "In a really bad area." My friend asked how bad, to which Jay replied, "I was raped."
This was fucking news to me. He said it so matter-of-factly that I didn't know if he was joking or not, because he has also told a great deal of rape jokes and I wouldn't put this past him.
A couple of days later, I was still thinking about that small exchange during class, and I texted Jay, asking if he actually was raped. This time, he just replied, "Twice." He didn't say anything about it being twice during class, which could very well just have been because he didn't want to share that. But it still seemed off.
I was pissed too, by the way. It was one thing for Jay to make those remarks of blaming me for the rape, because everyone else I told who hadn't experienced rape either made those same remarks. The only people who knew exactly what to say to me were the people who had been raped as well, because they understood what I was feeling. But now that Jay was saying he was a rape victim too, all of a sudden, now I just felt pissed. Because, in my eyes, if he was actually a rape victim too, he would have understood how I was feeling, and that "I TOLD YOU SO" is exactly what not to say to a rape victim.

Before he claimed to be a rape victim, he had tried to explain the "I told you so" comment a few times before. He said everything from just being too in shock to feeling like since he somehow "just knew" I would get raped eventually, it didn't really matter to him. But his final explanation of that comment was finally simply a fucking apology, which is all I really needed to be honest. Just to admit he was wrong and wishes he could've taken it back meant a lot to me, and that was settled.
But now, I felt like it had to be talked about again, since it just didn't make any sense anymore that he would say that to me. I also feel like it was weird, because a few weeks after I was raped I was talking to him and all of a sudden just broke down and cried next to him for probably half an hour. That kind of moment could've been the time for him to bring up his experience with rape, and say how he has healed from it and it will get better one day. But all he could keep saying were things that blamed me, while also just apologizing that it happened.
I texted him asking why he said, "I told you so" if he apparently knew how it felt to be a rape victim. He said that he said that because he thought it would happen again. Which makes no fucking sense whatsoever.
He added, "I wanted you to take better care of yourself, value your life more." and that "I didn't think anyone else would tell you to not get into situations like that." In a way, he's still fucking blaming me for "getting into that situation".

Today I texted and asked if he ever went through counseling for it. He said no and that he never told anyone. Obviously my experience doesn't represent every victim's experience, but I do think it has some value. Personally, I know that if I never told anyone of importance or authority, like the school counselor, my parents, and eventually my rape counselor, that I would've stayed in that fucked up place in my mind for a long, long time. I was considering drugs, anything to get that shit out of my brain because it was too much to bear. I was constantly trying to run away from it, and that makes you a really weak person. I just feel like, if that did happen to him, he wouldn't be the person he is. Able to make light of rape, joke about consent, etc. Edgy jokes are edgy jokes, but it still triggers me when people, especially close friends, make rape jokes right in front of me.
He then said, "I'm not very proud of it lol maybe I stopped giving a fuck... I don't know why. Maybe I saw how well you took it and was inspired."
First of fucking all, nobody's proud of being raped, that's kind of part of the whole deal. Second, I'm sorry, but can anyone just "stop giving a fuck" that they were raped? I STILL cry about it. I am STILL pissed as FUCK that someone did that to me. I still get flashbacks and nightmares and react weirdly to certain situations and it has me fucked up for the rest of my life.

He just... he doesn't show signs of any of it. And I know that it is ultimately not even relevant to me. I know very well that it's not my place to rule whether someone elses rape experience is legitimate or not, because I hate when people do the same to me. I also am aware that male rape victims often act out in different ways than females because of the strong stigma on male rape victims.
But it does bother me a lot. I think it's because, next to my rapist, the people I hate most are the people who make false rape accusations. They are disgusting, and quite possibly the scum of the earth. Not only are they putting an innocent person's reputation and life on the line, but they are also creating an incredibly bad image for the rest of us. It's little shits like them that are the reason people have such a hard time believing rape accusations. And so for one of my closest friends to seem like he fits into that group would infuriate me.

I asked the friend in our class if he believes that Jay was actually raped. He said no right away, without even having to think about it. He said that whenever rape or sexual violence comes up in conversation, I shut down and obviously give off uncomfortable vibes about it. But he said that Jay's vibes and attitude doesn't change at all on that topic. He said you can't fake those vibes, which is why he believes me and not Jay. He also mentioned how sporadic and inconsistent Jay's answers got when asked about the rape(s).

I think I should also mention that, when I met Jay like 2-3 years ago, within five minutes of knowing him he was bragging that he grew up in the "ghetto hood". I knew that was bullshit from the start, simply because nobody who ACTUALLY grew up poor, starving, on welfare, with a low quality of life and falling asleep to the sound of gunshots outside would ever fucking brag about that, like it's something "cool". I know many people who have grown up in places like that, where it's literally unsafe to go outside because of all the crackheads and gang members on the streets. Those people don't brag about growing up there, they look back on that shit and scoff at it, because of how disgusting the quality of life it was. What they DO brag about is how they got out of there, have a job, have a good place to live, etc. They want to get as far away from that place, mentally, as possible. Not relive and reminisce in it because of how many "swag" points they got from it.
Jay has also said that he currently lives in the ghetto, and that his family is abusive and doesn't give him anything, and how he's poor. The first time I went to his two-story house in the fucking beautiful suburbs, his mom greeted me at the door with a hug and a "welcome to our home, would you like anything to drink, etc". We followed him into his full-on gaming room, complete with a huge flat-screen tv and multiple consoles. I was with a few other friends too, and we all kind of chuckled because we all instantly knew he lied about it all. (Not that it makes much of a difference, but it sort of does. Jay is white and has always admired black culture. Like, obsessively. And when he found out I primarily dated and preferred black dudes, he started talking in ebonics which was super fucking cringey and tried using street slang. It was both offensive and disgusting to me that he immediately thought to get at me, he had to speak unintelligently, because i liked black guys and he wanted to talk "like a black guy". Do you even know how many levels of fucking wrong and borderline racist that is.)

Jay also tells a lot of stories from his "ghetto childhood". One story sticks out to me the most, though, just because of how completely ludicrous it is. He said he was about 7-8 years old, and these two guys kidnapped him. They brought him to this club, where there were, and I quote, "obese trap mommas trying to give him lap dances". The guys finally brought him to the back room, where they forced him, a 7-8 year old, to start putting together guns for them or they would kill him and his family. This little bitch fucking said, AND I QUOTE, "Luckily after all my years of experience playing Call of Duty, I knew exactly what guns to build and how many bullets they needed and what size bullets and everything. So they let me free."
...I'm sure you're intelligent enough to see the MANY things that are completely wrong with that story.

So that was an obvious lie, among many other stories he has told. I think that's really why I'm having such a hard time believing this, and it just makes it even worse that I feel like he's lying about rape, because now I'm hella pissed in addition to being in such blatant disbelief.
And it actually hurts me, believe it or not, because Jay has said that he thinks he needs therapy for all the shit he's been through in "the hood". I don't want to be a shitty friend and completely invalidate what could, I guess, potentially be completely legitimate experiences. However... come on.
It pisses me off even more because I feel like I can see through his lies so clearly, but his sheep follower of a girlfriend blindly believes every word that comes out of his mouth. This bitch even was stupid enough to believe him when he lied about how he tried to use me to cheat on her. He told her he was "just trying to save me". Bitch????

I'm so fucking heated right now jesus fucking christ. Usually posting helps me calm down but I'm so mad.
I don't know what I want to get out of this. Honestly, secretly what I'd really like is if someone could agree with me that this dude is a psycho compulsive liar. Because truth be told, part of me is scared that maybe I'm the crazy one for not believing any of this, and I'm the asshole for wanting to invalidate my friend's experiences. I really just want another sane person to tell me I'm right, if I'm being completely honest.
But I guess I would like to know how I can deal with this, possibly talk to the delusional dude about it, and move past it?


i don't know what i'm supposed to do
haunted by the ghost of you

Last edited by Jess~; November 9th 2017 at 06:13 PM.
   
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Re: I think my friend is lying about it (long rant) - November 8th 2017, 11:22 AM

Hey there,

I can really see how frustrating and conflicted you're feeling.

It is really hard to say. And as someone who be been through sexual assault, I wouldn't want people claiming that word if it didn't actually happen.

Maybe this is something I can share that might give perspective. Over the summer, I was working. We were all pretty much ghetto kids. Well rather "at risk youth"

The way these youth talk about their experience varies. Some of them make jokes, some are super serious, some are in between.

There was one girl who kept saying small things were "giving (her) ptsd"
It bothered me because I had just been diagnosed with ptsd the month prior. For her, the bus coming late apparently gave her ptsd. This that and the other, which may be stressful events but are still everyday life circumstances she would claim had all given her ptsd.
Another thing is that she opened up to me about how her mother hits her 2 year old brother and that he is such a bad kid that she hits him too.

She later told me growing up how she was hit as well.
But it was all jokes with her. She would burst out laughing over her 2 year old brother being hit with wooden spoons and how the family has to eat with their hands now because there's no more spoons for them to eat with.

Okay so there's also another girl who has a 2 year old son and she also hits her son. And the two girls were talking about techniques to yell at the kids and like sharing ideas like what if the child hits back, how loud should you tell etc

Now I've been hit as a child too and this conversation was deeply disturbing to me.

So i guess what I'm trying to say is that people experience trauma in different aays. Some people promise themselves they'd never hit a child and some people wind up hitting a child, saying he deserved it but then saying she got ptsd from like a pencil rolling off the table.

This was ALWAYS with a smirk on her face.

We ended up discussing ptsd briefly and it turns out that she takes meds for depression and anxiety. She also has awful stomach problems which can be a sign that she stores the stress in her body.

I told her if she feels she might have ptsd to talk to her dr. At that moment she said she doesn't.
And while I felt upset that she kept joking about ptsd.... i read it as her secretly feeling like her life had been traumatic but she diednt know how to say it becsuse she grew up in a dysfunctiobal home.
Sometimes someone would joke about like bipolar or adhd or autism and then justify it by saying "well I'm allowed to because I have that disorder"
Or simply because they're disabled in one way they feel it is okay to joke about other disabilities.

I don't think any of it is okay. It is okay to joke about personal things but there's that thin line between a comedian saying something about her own cereal palsy and how she shakes so much that it makes police think shw is drunk (I watched a video) and joking about people as a whole living with cereal palsy.
It is important to speak to your own experience and he did not do that by making rape jokes.
.even my sisters have joked about if and told me I gave her ptsd and it triggered me so badly. It was when u left a cat toy on the floor and for weeks I thought I was feeling bad for causing her trauma (that might more have to do with me taking people's words super seriously and at face value. Like my dad said I was causing him cancer and I believed it even though he doesn't have cancer)
Okay those weren't jokes, those were blamings out of anger and later justified as just a joke when I was so upset. But off topic. Sorry about that. I guess what I'm trying to say is that my family have suffered trauma and still use the word ptsd incorrectly. And that girl at work had suffered trauma but she still joked about ptsd and still hit her sibling even though she had it hard growing up. She sees life in a certain perspective, maybe cynical is the word I'm looking for? She acts on her cynicism. Like "life is tough and cruel and that's how it works, no exceptions, bro"
Kind of like that attitude. Like she said how she used to be a sensitive person and cared about animals and it is like she has grown cold to the world. And treats her brother badly due to her own pain.


But insensitive joking can actually be pointing to a cry for help.
In some instances. Meaning, it is based on a truth story and it is their way of talking about it without having to talk about IT.


Another quick example is that one of the person who sexual assaulted me had at first talked about how he was sexually abused. He went into great detail after I had told him I was assaulted. He started asking me questions like am I still a vigin, was it full penetration.

So that just shows that sexual abuse victims are not necessarily kind or understanding people. It is possible that a serial rapist had experienced rape too.

What awful questions to ask. Completely insensitive.
And yes, I do sometimes say things matter of factly like "my mother died"
I don't say passed away or deceased. I say died. Well nowadays I just say I don't live with my mother because I don't want to talk about it with everyone. I realized people can be insensitive pricks or maybe they are ignorant.

At the very same time I see your reasoning and it is hard to buy what he said. Considering he has a history of being manipulative and lying. Plus he knows you've been raped and you were in the room at the time so maybe if was all staged. My dad does things like that, where he says specific answers knowing the person would give a certain emotional response if they heard that. I mean that's possible. At the same time, some people rarely or never talk about traumatic events.....and make life in the ghetto sound really good as a way to cope.
Kind of like glorifying war. If you ever heard folks tell war stories, it is similar. They'd sometimes talk about it like it was an adventure and later on realize they're actually traumatized but didn't talk about the traumatic parts.
So honestly I can't tell you a definite answer.
Saying the worst thing possible to a rape victim doesn't automatically discredit omeone's story.
But I can see how it is fishy. I can see how suspicious it can feel.

You're not crazy for feeling like this. He has lied before. But at the same time we can't know.

I'm not sure how to cope with not knowing something but feeling that urge to know the truth.

You can try asking yourself let's say he was saying the truth? How would that affect me? And let's say he wasn't saying the truth, how would that affect me?
And then try to cope with either outcome.


I hope this helps even a little. Feel free to come back and reply to this. Sorry you're having such a rough moment. It sounds Like You've Came A Long Way The Last 2 years.

Last edited by ~Radio Flyer~; November 8th 2017 at 11:45 AM.
   
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Re: I think my friend is lying about it (long rant) - November 9th 2017, 04:31 PM

You're not crazy for not believing what Jay said happened to him.

The 'I told you so' comment is a bit suspicious (I've had other comments said to me that belong on the 'things not to say' list) and especially if you felt that he had been trying to get you to have sex with him before. But then again maybe he was projecting his past on to you and perhaps wished that someone had been there to 'protect' him from what happened (in the form of telling him not to do something or go somewhere etc).

Bragging about growing up poor or in a bad environment, while it seems unlikely, could also be a defence. Equally, if he admires black culture, he may be trying, even if inappropriately, to 'fit in'. But at the same time, you are right to have suspicions when you have visited his home and have seen the materialistic things that he has, which goes against the notion that he is poor and he doesn't get given things.

The only person that knows whether he is telling the truth or not is Jay himself. But you don't have to believe him, and this doesn't make you a bad friend. You are entitled to your thoughts and feelings, and understandably, accusations of rape, whether true or false, hits home for you.

Regardless of whether Jay is telling the truth or whether he is indeed lying, it sounds like Jay could benefit from some form of professional help. If he thinks he needs therapy to help him deal with things, you can encourage this. Though it doesn't help him, you could also let him know that you'd prefer not to hear stories of his childhood or his rapes since it's difficult for you to deal with. He doesn't have to know that you suspect him of lying, but that his stories are affecting you negatively, and that he could get counselling instead.


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Re: I think my friend is lying about it (long rant) - November 11th 2017, 07:10 PM

Thanks for the responses, I've taken a few days to think over the advice you guys have given me. I did text Jay and immediately end the conversation about his rape accusations, and instead just told him that he might benefit from counseling, and gave him information and the number to our college's mental health counseling.
It's weird. I don't want to toot my own horn, but I am usually quite empathetic when it comes to these things. But now, it is genuinely hard for me to find any bit of care and concern for Jay after this. I just feel like it's clear as day to me that he's lying, yet his ignorant girlfriend eagerly nods her head at every single word he says. She even believed the story where he was forced to make guns at age 7. She's so gullible it's sad.
See, this is just making me such a hateful person. I don't know why it's affecting me so much. Jay and his girlfriend have been my closest friends for about three years now. I do think I'm really starting to grow apart from them, and this whole thing is only speeding up that process.

I think what's really increasingly making me more and more pissed off is that with every day I have paid any attention to Jay's rape story, the more and more he milks it. Every day, there are new, random details to the story. It pissed me off so much, because the day after I texted him asking if he was really raped, he came to class and the subject of sexual assault came up in a group discussion. He went on this random ass tangent about how having a knife could help a rape victim. Then said, "I mean... I know a knife would've helped me."
Again, obviously my experience is not the same as everyone's. But during my rape, I shut down completely and dissociated. I froze. The brain doesn't work the same way when in the heat of a traumatic moment. It goes into survival mode. For some, sure, that could mean using a weapon to get out of it or running away. Fight or flight. But I swear I've seen statistics somewhere, I think in my developmental psychology class, where it discussed that third reaction: freeze, and how the majority of sexual assault victims go into that state of mind.
I really don't want to make any assumptions, but from what I have experienced with talking to other people, generally, the people who have experienced rape and trauma realize that there is no "planning ahead" about what you would do in that situation. Even if you say, "Oh, if I was about to be raped I would just kick that fucker in the balls haha!" that's probably not what you would actually do in the situation, because your brain switches into survival gear and you panic. The only people who have said things to me, about, "Oh if that happened to me I would've just pulled out my pepper spray!!" were people who have never experienced trauma like that.
It's just getting increasingly more suspicious, with how similar the things Jay say sound to the things people who are uneducated and inexperienced with trauma and rape have said to me.

But like it was said, not all rape victims act the same or are understanding of other rape victims after the fact. I do understand that, and thank you, Hum, for bringing that up. You are absolutely right and I have been keeping that in mind, these past couple days.
I also have been keeping in mind the idea that maybe he was just projecting his past of grooming and manipulating onto me. But I'll never know.
It's just hard, because I have known this guy for three years. I know him pretty well, to say the least. There's just this weird, gut feeling I have about this, and I think that's what is pissing me off so much. Because I know him, and I know how his wildly exaggerated story lies have sounded in the past. I want to talk to someone else who knows him, but the only person there would be to talk to is his girlfriend. I might just talk to her, but I don't know, that could ruin our entire friendship. Like I said, she's so gullible and diehard loyal to him that I doubt she even has it in her to doubt his obviously ludicrous stories. When he cheated on her by kissing me against my will, she chose him, a boyfriend of one week, over me, a friend of two years at the time. Like I said above, he told her he was just trying to "save" me, because he thought I was such a slut that I just needed to get some action, so he was trying to help me. Because that's all he does, he helps people. She believed that story over the screenshots of texts from him that I showed her.

Maybe the bigger issue here is there's so much unresolved shit relating to Jay's lies that one more lie - one more HUGE lie, mind you - is just enough to push me over the edge. I don't know.


i don't know what i'm supposed to do
haunted by the ghost of you
   
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