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Catharsis. Offline
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Edward Snowden: Patriot or Traitor? - June 14th 2013, 07:04 PM

I think a thread on this is due...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...r-surveillance

I can say I have a great amount of admiration for him. I agree 101% with what he did and his motives. Fair play to him, I say. It takes a lot of courage. He's done a great service for the people of his country.

What do you all think?
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Re: Edward Snowden: Patriot or Traitor? - June 14th 2013, 07:54 PM

I like him. Basically, yeah.


I don't believe the garbage that "Prism" and NSA only ever targeted "terrorists" and cyber-criminals. When people have that much power and not much legal framework to hold them back from doing whatever they want to... they tend to do, whatever they want to.

Terrorist - It also appears that sometimes this term can be thrown at anyone who "opposes the establishment". Great. lol.



Is he a patriot, or a traitor? I don't know. It doesn't look like he did what he did out of selfish ambitions, so I wouldn't call him a traitor. Patriot? More likely, although I get the impression he stands more in defence of democracy and openness than in defence of his country.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Edward Snowden: Patriot or Traitor? - June 14th 2013, 11:43 PM

Traitor means that he was aiding or abetting the enemy. So if he's a traitor, then one must ask, when he gave information to the people, who the enemy is?


Often I lie wide awake, thinking of things I could make.
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I am so scared of what will kill me in the end, for I am not prepared.
I hope I will get the chance to be someone, to be human.





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Re: Edward Snowden: Patriot or Traitor? - June 14th 2013, 11:52 PM

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Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
Traitor means that he was aiding or abetting the enemy. So if he's a traitor, then one must ask, when he gave information to the people, who the enemy is?
Well, that's going back to the assumption that the NSA were only watching out for terrorists and whatnot. And the people describing Snowden as a traitor believe he has now compromised a useful method of keeping an eye on dodgy people.

And that's rubbish. Like BDF stated above, there was nothing in place to prevent them from doing what they wanted to, so they went and did what they wanted to. And constant surveillance is not acceptable.

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Patriot? More likely, although I get the impression he stands more in defence of democracy and openness than in defence of his country.
This is true. I believe he essentially said that he didn't want to live in a world where government surveillance occured. Not that he didn't want 'Murica to be a surveillance state.
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Re: Edward Snowden: Patriot or Traitor? - June 15th 2013, 02:18 AM

There's a teacher from High School that once told me something that a Patriot isn't someone who always agrees with their Government, but someone who stands up for their country. There's a difference between someone standing up against tyranny in the Government and stealing Nukes to sell to the Enemy. Edward Snowden is a Patriot, standing up for the Constitution of the United States. He isn't trying to sell secrets to the Taliban. He is exposing what the US Government treats as the biggest enemy, the U.S. Citizens. One Hero from the Revolution I always recall is Nathan Hale who said before being killed by the British is "The only regret I have is only having one life to give to my country. Not Government, Country.


   
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Re: Edward Snowden: Patriot or Traitor? - June 15th 2013, 06:38 AM

"In June 2013 the Australian Government announced it would investigate the impact of the PRISM (surveillance program) and the use of the Pine Gap facility on the privacy of Australian citizens."

Well......
   
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Re: Edward Snowden: Patriot or Traitor? - June 15th 2013, 10:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Remorse_Angel View Post
There's a teacher from High School that once told me something that a Patriot isn't someone who always agrees with their Government, but someone who stands up for their country. There's a difference between someone standing up against tyranny in the Government and stealing Nukes to sell to the Enemy. Edward Snowden is a Patriot, standing up for the Constitution of the United States. He isn't trying to sell secrets to the Taliban. He is exposing what the US Government treats as the biggest enemy, the U.S. Citizens. One Hero from the Revolution I always recall is Nathan Hale who said before being killed by the British is "The only regret I have is only having one life to give to my country. Not Government, Country.
Very well put. I feel outright aversion towards people who just agree with everything others tell them. They're dangerous, and often nicknamed "sheeple" today. They're not explicitly dangerous, they don't go attacking others or blowing things up as such... but they will do and believe anything you tell them, and so are very easy to manipulate.

The patriotism thing... from my observations, most people interpret it as some sort of blind belief in the "establishment". At least it's those sorts of people who make themselves known and heard. Follow orders. Do as you're told, because if you don't, then you don't love your country, and could be screwed for treachery of some sort or other.

If that's not indoctrination in the same way that many fanatical religious sects are, then what is?


And I've heard and seen this several times in history books, especially regarding autocratic states... governments saying something along the lines of "if you oppose us, then you're opposing the state".


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; June 15th 2013 at 02:35 PM.
   
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Re: Edward Snowden: Patriot or Traitor? - June 15th 2013, 02:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
The patriotism thing... from my observations, most people interpret it as some sort of blind belief in the "establishment". Follow orders. Do as you're told, because if you don't, then you don't love your country, and could be screwed for treachery of some sort or other.
It does often seem like that is the way it's interpreted, and, in that case, it's pretty flawed. If patriotism is defined by following orders given to you by the "establishment", then almost any law-abiding citizen who pays their taxes and stays out of trouble is a patriot. Obviously there has to be something to separate patriots from regular people.

On a side note, Julian Assange has (inevitably) had something to say about this, and has said that Snowden has revealed something he's "been talking about for a long time", and that this leak has proven him correct (source). Anyone remember the interview where he referred to Facebook as a "spying machine"?
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Re: Edward Snowden: Patriot or Traitor? - June 16th 2013, 09:46 AM

I would lean towards neither. I think he did it on principle and ethics. I don't think he necessarily did it for patriotic reasons or did it to betray the country.
   
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