Triggering (Abuse): Game of Thrones Rape Scene

[Gingerbread Latte]

CONTAINS SPOILERS.

http://www.wired.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-rape/

So the other night a very controversial (even for GoT) scene was shown where Jaime rapes Cersei. In the books this doesn't happen and sex between them is consensual so I was more than a bit shocked when this happened.

It's also quite worrying that the directors say this about the scene :

the interaction “becomes consensual by the end, because anything for [Jaime and Cersei] ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle.”

Anyone who watched that scene can see that it DID NOT end up being consensual and Cersei was saying no all the way to the end of the scene when the cameras cut to a new scene.

A lot of people are shocked about this, myself included, and even Martin has said that the original scene was meant to be disturbing (I mean they are having sex in the tomb of their dead son) but that the actual TV show scene was disturbing for all the wrong reasons.

Discuss.

[Snufkin]

What in particular do you want to discuss?

You have me on Tumblr and FB so you probably know my opinion of this already.

Rape scenes exist in all forms of media, with which I have no real problem so long as the person writing them knows exactly what they're doing. Rape scenes exists in Game of Thrones, both in the books and on the TV shows, and while disturbing and horrific, they didn't cause the fuss this one caused.

But the reason this one caused a fuss was because book!Jamie would never treat Cersei this way. Even in S3 of the show, Jamie saves Brienne from being raped. Jamie shows no signs of being capable of rape until this episode. His character becomes a fan favourite as the books progress, and it's his change from being a douchebag to being a more moral figure that causes that. It will now be impossible in the TV show adaption because of this rape scene which has changed the dynamic of not only his character, but also his relationship with Cersei.

I'm not sure I equate this to a rape discussion over what the problems were with the episode, though what the actors/writers have said regarding the scene are exceptionally worrying. Rather, it's a problem with a monumental changing of character dynamics. Excluding characters from the show when adapting from the book is one thing, but the whole point of Jamie's character arc is he becomes more likeable, and this change changes that.

Though, not enough has been said about the rape scene in S1E1 between Dany and Drogo. There is no consent shown in the TV show, but the books show she does consent. She's not enthusiastic about it, but she grows to feel affectionate for Drogo faster and consents to sex, where as the show very much portrays Drogo to rape her.

I think D&D are good at telling stories and adapting a very complex book series, but they seem to throw rape scenes in which don't exist and change the way you see characters. Everyone has flaws in the show, but when you make someone a rapist, it's hard to see them as anything other than a downright villain, which both Drogo and Jamie are certainly not in the books.

[Amorphous.]

I think Game of Thrones has been around long enough to understand that the controversy and the violence it shows in it's content is going to cause some members of the fandom some distress, I mean they knew when they wrote this scene that this is a significant trigger or potentially trigger for some people and it is going to cause controversy.

And everyone in the fandom, all of it's viewers understands whenever they turn on something like Game of Thrones that they are going to be faced with potentially disturbing imagery.

But this is something that the producers need to be held accountable for. To come outm and completely change the original content and the gravity of it, it's very disgusting from the producers and I think they need to apologise to their fans for doing something like this to then, I mean no one expected it, considering the original and no one was impressed by it, they need to apologise.

So normally some thingsm the viewer and the producers take on a risk and acknowledgement but this is different and they need to apologise to their fans or risk losing many of them.

The bottom line is, they turned a loving act and embrace into a horrible act of violence and they did it deliberately.

[Jack Lowden]

The scene didn't bother me, there has been plenty worse in the show. What the directors said was the issue. It was definitely a rape scene, she didn't want sex.

[taylalatbh.]

It was slightly shocking. I was more distraught by them doing it on the dead body. As much as rape is definitely a bad thing, we know it's out there, especially in film and media. I guess the producers did it to make a point and shock you, and it worked.

On a side note, we saw three willies in that episode. Tehehehe.

[Gingerbread Latte]

I guess I'm more shocked at the director trying to say it's not a rape scene mostly. I mean it's not too shocking that the scene happened given that it's Game of Thrones but there's no way the guy can argue it's not rape.

Jaime was also starting to be one of my favourites, in the books and TV show, but this scene has set his character back so much and I'm not sure if he can be redeemed for this.

[gdheiwmow]

I don't watch this show, but I'll agree with the director. Literature is a form of art, and nobody knows better what's going on in a story than the story's creator. He intended this to be a dubcon scene, whether you feel that way or not. It seems to be the case here where you're reading it but not understanding it, or the author is not describing a scene well enough to give you the correct impression. Wherever the fault lies, the director still gave his intention with the scene, and that's therefore the correct way to view it.

[Gingerbread Latte]

Except Cersei is CLEARLY saying no throughout the scene so I'm not really sure there's any way I could be misunderstanding it...if someone is saying no then they aren't giving consent so it's rape. There's literally no other way this scene can be interpreted.

Besides all forms of literature are open to interpretation and even the author of the books this series is based on has come out and said the scene wasn't how he wanted it to be.

[taylalatbh.]

But there is a lot of rape in that TV series so I don't see the problem.

[PureStorm]

A lot of violence and controversial things happen in GoT, so it was no surprise to see a rape scene between torture, murder, robbery etc. scenes. However, what's disturbing is that an influential person sort of denied that what happened was an act of violence when it clearly was, for all to see.

[gdheiwmow]

Originally Posted by Khaleesi.

Except Cersei is CLEARLY saying no throughout the scene so I'm not really sure there's any way I could be misunderstanding it...if someone is saying no then they aren't giving consent so it's rape. There's literally no other way this scene can be interpreted.

Besides all forms of literature are open to interpretation and even the author of the books this series is based on has come out and said the scene wasn't how he wanted it to be.

That's practically the definition of dubcon- saying "No, stop" but actually enjoying and wanting it. You aren't supposed to be sure it's consensual or not, and you never have 100% proof of it being either unless the creators say so. The only ones with authority over this matter are the people who made the episode, which includes the director. If no one else on the production team for that episode steps forward and disputes that claim, I'll have to side with the director.

Originally Posted by PureStorm

A lot of violence and controversial things happen in GoT, so it was no surprise to see a rape scene between torture, murder, robbery etc. scenes. However, what's disturbing is that an influential person sort of denied that what happened was an act of violence when it clearly was, for all to see.

There's nothing wrong with consensual violence, and since the director said the character consented, there is no problem. I really don't understand the anti-rape culture we live in. Everyone gets so angry about anything even remotely dubious, and then the writer suffers because people hate their work for unjust reasons. Nobody can have rape fantasies anymore or else they're frowned upon and called out. While I don't disagree that rape is a bad thing, I think it's completely ridiculous that people make a huge deal about dubcon scenes that the creators said were consensual.

[dr2005]

I think the fact that the author of the books himself has questioned the way the book was adapted in relation to this scene says it all, really. I know Games of Thrones is sex-happy putting it mildly, and it's not the first time they've portrayed rape in the series, but doing so again in what's almost an indifferent manner to what this actually means is quite disturbing. Granted, the initial scene was controversial itself - there's a dead body, incest, the works - but that's not a justification for a dubious production decision. In some respects, it makes me quite glad that I've not followed the series too closely as I certainly wouldn't do so now.

[Gingerbread Latte]

Look, people can have rape fantasies all they want, that's not really the point of the thread nor would I say I'm especially "anti-rape culture" but this scene just rubbed me the wrong way especially as I'm such a fan of the books and Jaime's character and I feel this scene has ruined that character arc for me.

The point is that what was shown on our TV, regardless of the way the creator meant it and explained it away, was rape. No ifs or buts about it.

I'd hardly say it was dubcon seeing as the consent was very clearly NOT given and being as Game of Thrones is such a popular TV show it's kind of dangerous to give across the message "she's saying no but she really wants it".

[PureStorm]

Originally Posted by Khaleesi.

I'd hardly say it was dubcon seeing as the consent was very clearly NOT given and being as Game of Thrones is such a popular TV show it's kind of dangerous to give across the message "she's saying no but she really wants it".

The only point I can't agree with. The audience does not (or is not supposed to) consist of 8 year old children who could possibly be shaped by this. It gives across the message that rape is OK no more and no less than the message that murder is.
That doesn't justify what the author said, though, imo he insulted the female sex with it.
I find it disturbing, but for different reasons than you.

R.

[Heretic]

I don't know anyone under the age of sixteen who watches GoT, and I can't imagine that such a demographic would be very large beyond who I know. The viewers of the show know what it is. There's violence with blood and gore, sex with gratuitous nudity and sometimes unsettling themes, and other elements that make it inappropriate for people below a certain age level.

The scene is part of the story, even if it makes people uncomfortable. Indeed; making people uncomfortable is part of the idea behind the scene. I can't speak for the director, but the author of the series (George R.R. Martin) is the facilitator of the show and has final say on everything that is or is not in it.

[Gingerbread Latte]

This comment from Martin suggests he doesn't always have a final say on things :

The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently,” Martin went on. “But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.”

I want to make it clear I'm not angry that the scene was in the show (okay maybe I'm slightly angry because it was so different from the books and NOT part of the story). I'm angry at how they've basically rewritten Jaime's entire character arc because of this AND the fact the director still denies this is rape and says “It worked out really well. That’s one of my favorite scenes I’ve ever done.”

I didn't find the scene to be particularly controversial. This is Game of Thrones, and there are a lot of scenes that go from unsettling ("shadow baby") to downright disturbing (the cutting off of Theon's penis). To me, this kind of scene comes with the territory of Game of Thrones: nudity, gore, violence and upset can be expected. No one talked about how disturbing it was when Sansa very nearly was raped in season two, and she was a child. Nor is anyone talking about how some of the Wildlings are eating people. Technically the entire show is controversial; it's a brutal world filled with brutal things. Rape, even rape between main characters, falls under that.

[Grey Wind]

Even though I think rape isn't as black and white as everyone thinks, the point of it was Jaimie expressing his dominance over Cersei. He used to be the best swordsman in the 7 kingdoms, that's what largely attracted Cersei to him in the first place. After he got captured and lost his hand, she proceeded to call him out on how he was less of a man because of it. She even calls him less of a man than her. He proved she was wrong by fucking her. It's not 'right', but in such a horrible society, people solve issues by doing horrible things.

It ruins Jamie's character arc if you're the uptight type who moans about rape culture, but as everyone else said, this is a show where people do much more horrible things. But peoples biases cause non consensual sex to be more of an outrage than murder and war, unfortunately.

[Snufkin]

Originally Posted by Grey Wind

It ruins Jamie's character arc if you're the uptight type who moans about rape culture, but as everyone else said, this is a show where people do much more horrible things. But peoples biases cause non consensual sex to be more of an outrage than murder and war, unfortunately.

Imagine the nerve of someone "moaning" about rape culture. Gosh.

Also most people seem pissed because it's a big deviation from book!Jamie. At least, that's what I figured from people in the fandom. He was on a moral upswing since S3, but it's hard to ever forgive a rapist. Book!Jamie is much preferable.

[Lamia]

Like everyone else has said, there's plenty more in GOT that is horrible. Just the director's attitude on this one is what gets me. Both the actor and the directors did not feel like they were shooting a rape scene. I guess it worries me that they think they can make Jaime likeable now.


I, personally, will still like Jaime in the show, simply because I don't think it's the character's fault that the writers and directors screwed up with the writing and directing. In my head, it happened how it did in the books.

I'd really like to hear Lena's opinion on all this. Lena Headey is a really cool actress, and if anyone was going to call it out as a mistake, it'd be her. Then again, she may have to put aside her own feelings in loyalty to the show. I'm not sure.