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Black vs white racism - December 13th 2015, 06:29 PM

Proud to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMA_qmtqzIA

A lot of people in the comment are saying though, that if it were America, most people wouldn't say anything about the hairdresser scene. Of course, I wouldn't have much 1st hand knowledge about that.


.


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Re: Black vs white racism - December 13th 2015, 10:56 PM

Quick vernacular lesson. Both of these are examples of discrimination, but racism is only the systematic oppression of people who are not in power. In American and British culture, White people are the "people in power" and therefore, you cannot be racist towards whites. You can discriminate against them, but it's technically not called "racism." That's where a lot of people may shatter these arguments.

I mean, I'm not sure what the question is. In both cases, the people were discriminated against and denied services. Discrimination happens. What's your point here?


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Re: Black vs white racism - December 14th 2015, 12:16 AM

This isn't exactly "modern" racism. Modern racism is usually a set of stereotypes that are almost "imbedded", shall I say, into people's brains. It usually isn't the big things, like nobody will ever get kicked out of anywhere (hopefully) because of their skin color, but its almost like subconscious preferences. Like, if a white woman started clutching her purse while walking past black people as opposed to white people. Thats obviously small, but then there are the actual trials and cases where justice isn't blind, like in a case where a white defendant would've either got off or gotten community service, the black defendant got like 8 years for a comparable offense. I've seen that meme on Facebook actually, a black woman got x years in prison because she left her kids in the car so she could get a couple groceries, but a white woman in the same area got community service for driving around on crack with her baby on top of the car. I mean, come on, seriously?
There was a quiz that CNN had up for a little while, a "racial preference quiz". By no means is it definitive, but I got a "moderate preference for black people". I'm white. I figure thats better than a moderate preference for white people. I've tried typing the reason why in a way that made sense, but I can't find the right words for it.
Kind of a sidenote... I liked the video, but comparing a barbershop to a bar isn't exactly the same thing. (This isn't really about racism) For barbershops, the reasoning is fairly simple, white people and black people generally have different types of hair. In general, black people tend to have shorter, curlier hair, while white people tend to have straighter, longer hair, although it isn't always true. I can speak from experience though... when I was in 4th grade, I went to a generally black barbershop in my city when I had long hair and the guy looked at me like, "shit, what do I do?" and gave me a bowl cut, like he hadn't seen a white hairstyle since the 90's. It was a terrible week.
I hate to say though, I could barely understand a word anyone in that video said because of their accents... should I feel unsophisticated?


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Re: Black vs white racism - December 14th 2015, 01:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
Quick vernacular lesson. Both of these are examples of discrimination, but racism is only the systematic oppression of people who are not in power. In American and British culture, White people are the "people in power" and therefore, you cannot be racist towards whites. You can discriminate against them, but it's technically not called "racism." That's where a lot of people may shatter these arguments.

I mean, I'm not sure what the question is. In both cases, the people were discriminated against and denied services. Discrimination happens. What's your point here?
No, that's not true. Racism is discrimination against someone based on their race. Power/being the majority/ruling race has nothing to do with it.
'Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior' - Oxford Dictionary
Just because Tumblr makes up definitions for words doesn't mean they're right.
   
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Re: Black vs white racism - December 14th 2015, 02:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post


No, that's not true. Racism is discrimination against someone based on their race. Power/being the majority/ruling race has nothing to do with it.
'Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior' - Oxford Dictionary
Just because Tumblr makes up definitions for words doesn't mean they're right.
I didn't learn this from Tumblr, I learned this in multiple classes in gender and sexuality along with sociology. I think I heard it the first time in a class in high school. Racism stems from power and privilege. Somebody can discriminate against me because I'm white (although I can't think of a time I've ever been discriminated against for being white...treated differently maybe), but I hold ridiculous amounts of power in most spaces due to being white. I pointed that out mostly so that the user can understand why people may side against talking about "white racism" because, well, to many to academia and possibly the users of social justice Tumblr or whatever, that doesn't exist. I also still don't understand his question. Yes, people are discriminated against and there's social experiments depicting it. Is there a question at hand about it?


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Re: Black vs white racism - December 14th 2015, 07:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post


No, that's not true. Racism is discrimination against someone based on their race. Power/being the majority/ruling race has nothing to do with it.
'Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior' - Oxford Dictionary
Just because Tumblr makes up definitions for words doesn't mean they're right.
Traci is right actually. I took a Race and Ethnicity class and racism has to do with oppression as well as discrimination. Thus, you cannot be racist against whites in a country with a white majority. One of my textbooks also said that reverse racism does not exist. Here's a nice article about it on the Huffington Post. You can do a quick Google search for "reverse racism" and you'll see lots of sources that explain why it does not exist. Racism extends much further than a one sentence dictionary definition. It's a complex system.


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Re: Black vs white racism - December 14th 2015, 07:49 AM

Looks like two people are watching that racist Franchesca Ramsey or whatever her name is.

Anyways, if you are discriminated because you are white, it's racism, just like Indians/blacks/Middle-Easterns/Asians are being discriminated against, that's called racism. Maybe I'm thinking too simple or black-and-white here, but to me, from an equal standpoint, discriminating against whites (just) because of the color of their skin, is just as racist as discriminating against other races for the same reasons. I don't care about the past, it isn't our fault, racism is racism.


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Re: Black vs white racism - December 14th 2015, 09:47 AM

What is the question being asked here?
I am with Traci and Nicole on this one.
I had a nice discussion with some people last week about this. They were all white (I am tan and disabled) which I believe puts me in an interesting spot...
Racism does not just cross boundaries of color however it affects other minorities as well (Ie. when I apply for a job as a person that is blind I experience racism).
The dictionary is great but no definition can encompass all facets of this topic.
   
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Re: Black vs white racism - December 14th 2015, 10:47 PM

I think so many people have fucked up the definition of "racism" that it is meaningless actually. I should have given the thread a different title. I should have known this would take off on a tangent.

I don't even usually take the word "racist" seriously anymore to be honest. I take the piss out of it. When I miss the bus I say to my friends that the driver must be racist. When I don't like what's on TV I call the producers racist. When I get served food that's undercooked I say it's racist.

You know... whatever. I still remember an idiotic case (maybe it was a joke) of someone making a racial issue out of bin bags being black. So the tagline was "political correctness gone mad". Now people are saying that saying "political correctness gone mad" is a form of racism too, as some kind of counter-anti-reverse-defence... fuck. I'm done with this bullshit. I've had it. You're also apparently "racist" if you quote dictionary definitions of racism as counter-arguments in debates.

Fine. It's discrimination. Just about everybody has pissed and shitted on the original definitions left and right. It doesn't really matter much who says what the definition really is, no matter how many PhDs, letters and titles they have behind and in front of their name, if 90% of the population have different ideas, and I've lost my patience with trying to rationalise it. It's like currency inflation to me. Once it crosses a certain line, scrap the old currency and replace it with a new one. Scrap the word racism, and replace it with something new. If I could do that... I would.

All this is besides the original point I was trying to make/ask. Is black vs white racism, ahem, discrimination, worse in America, or not? And vice versa? Why is either of them tolerated more? Why is any of it acceptable and even slightly excusable? I'm sure it has a lot to do with the region, poverty, demographics, etc. I'd like this rationalised using logic, not hysterics and sob stories of how someone getting beaten up in childhood somehow excuses them reciprocating the same on other people 20 years later. I want to reconcile it in my own head, like unifying relativity and string theory. If I can figure this twisted mess out, I'll be really proud of myself, at least for a day or two.
__________________________

P.S. it just occured to me actually, that if there is any single definition of "racism" which I'm prepared to respect... it would be a legal definition, because of it's supposed impartiality. So I just looked one up right now as I'm typing. Here the closest I found after a quick search and read (don't have the time to go into more depth):

Quote:
The definition is:
"A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."
Source: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/r...ous_crime/#a01
LOL

So like I said/implied earlier, racism is anything and everything people want it to be. Madness. That made my day. What a joke. It's been a month since my last facepalm. I don't know what to think of this. That certainly is not what I expected. I feel tricked. I really thought legal documents would come up with something better. Certainly though, it is "impartial". Looks like even lawmakers have stopped giving a fuck.


.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



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Re: Black vs white racism - December 15th 2015, 01:49 AM

In all fairness, you didn't specifically ask about America.
In America, its probably a lot worse than many western nations, but it usually depends on the area. The KKK was born here. The deep south region is famous for making blatantly racist laws, it used to be actual segregation, now its mostly in the form of biased (all white) juries that convict black people at extremely high rates. They also make "voter registration laws" which make you pay a small fee to register to vote, affecting mostly poor minorities.
I don't know what you expected. This is Teenhelp, where its kind of assumed that every person could be a powder keg that could potentially explode if they read an opinion that could be considered even remotely offensive. For that reason, political correctness is totally necessary on this website. We're all supposed to be anti-trolls per the guidelines, so if you were looking for political incorrectness, you went to the wrong place.


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Re: Black vs white racism - December 15th 2015, 11:30 AM

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Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
In all fairness, you didn't specifically ask about America.
In America, its probably a lot worse than many western nations, but it usually depends on the area. The KKK was born here. The deep south region is famous for making blatantly racist laws, it used to be actual segregation, now its mostly in the form of biased (all white) juries that convict black people at extremely high rates. They also make "voter registration laws" which make you pay a small fee to register to vote, affecting mostly poor minorities.
If that stuff you say about the biased juries and voting fees is true, then it's sick. I'm not surprised much by the juries... but the voting fee, yes. I've for a long time tried to argue that black people face the problems they do mainly because of their higher poverty rates. Voting fees... dafuk. Camouflaged "racism" that only the deliberately stupid would overlook. I find that outstandingly offensive because it is an extremely blatant "fuck you" to democracy. Even prisoners in most developed countries get full voting rights. As far as I know anyway (I've never been a prisoner lol).

I'm going to read up on that stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
I don't know what you expected. This is Teenhelp, where its kind of assumed that every person could be a powder keg that could potentially explode if they read an opinion that could be considered even remotely offensive. For that reason, political correctness is totally necessary on this website. We're all supposed to be anti-trolls per the guidelines, so if you were looking for political incorrectness, you went to the wrong place.
Political correctness certainly has it's contexts. Like you don't go to a someone's funeral and start talking shit about the person. If that's the case, don't go. This website is, a therapy site? Is that right? (I'm not sure how to label "TeenHelp" really). It's a similar enough context which warrants extra caution regarding choice of words.

My problem with political correctness is it's widespread influence no matter what context. Just walking the damn street, at a bar, or restaurant, at a bustop, taxi, or what have you.

And I'm not "looking" for political incorrectness. Just to be clear, I don't find most racist comments and jokes ("racist") funny or necessary. Many such "jokes" even just go over my head entirely because I simply don't think in those kinds of categories. But I think police tracking football supporters for making monkey gestures at black players is a fucking idiotic waste of public resources. I use that example over and over everywhere because it is iconic to me. The guy happened to get caught on camera from across the stadium, and a witch hunt was launched. 300 years ago he'd have been probably burned alive. Just google "monkey gesture Chelsea fan" and you can read all about it.

What I'm looking for... is just openness. No bullshit. No veils. No backtalk. If black people commit more crimes on average, I'll fucking say it in the relevant context (not walking the highstreet and trumpeting it like an imbecile looking for fights). If they don't commit more crimes, I won't. But like I said above, I justify their crime rates with their poverty. I find it hard to even grasp what the boundaries of "political correctness" are, similar to "racism". I just haven't got the patience any more to figure it out. It's not that I don't care, I fucking do, a lot, and I've wasted so much time and energy because of it in the past that I've had it. I'm chosing to ignore it.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Black vs white racism - December 15th 2015, 12:03 PM

Christ... going after a fan for making those gestures after the game is kind of ridiculous, you'll never find him. In America, many of the "less enlightened" areas had bad habits of dumping bales of cotton on black or mixed football teams that came out of the tunnel, in a reference to black slavery in the US. Thats a thing of the past though, likely because basically every team in America has black football players (American college football teams can have 100 people in uniform during a game).
To me though, if overly sensitive political correctness was the biggest flaw of society, it would mean to me that our society reached a utopian status.


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Re: Black vs white racism - December 16th 2015, 09:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Christ... going after a fan for making those gestures after the game is kind of ridiculous, you'll never find him.
That's the fucking problem. They found him. They dropped the charges eventually apparently, but they found him. Searching for a needle in a haystack... and finding it, takes a lot of time and resources. This was before the recent facial recognition gimmicks were widespread in social media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
To me though, if overly sensitive political correctness was the biggest flaw of society, it would mean to me that our society reached a utopian status.
Utopia for who? Every person is different, and for me, that would be a nightmare. Besides, it wouldn't be sustainable. I've never thought of it this way, but if political correctness were the biggest problem to that kind of extent... I imagine no person would be saying anything to anyone in public for fear of offending someone, and instead would just cast stupid shy smiles at other people like halfwits. Or maybe not even that, in fear of being acused of being a "creep and a stalker".

I'm not making any kind of point with that, just thinking out loud. It'd make an interesting movie. Anything taken to banal extremes is unsustainable, counterproductive and often simply idiotic. That's not something unique to political correctness.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Black vs white racism - December 16th 2015, 10:17 PM

P.S. Mods: don't merge posts pls. Two very different issues here addressed to two different people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
Racism is only the systematic oppression of people who are not in power. In American and British culture, White people are the "people in power" and therefore, you cannot be racist towards whites. You can discriminate against them, but it's technically not called "racism." That's where a lot of people may shatter these arguments.
I want to take you up on that anyway, despite my earlier "rant". My posts are often long, but I hope you're patient enough and I didn't put you off earlier. Ask yourself what "power" really is (in this context). It is far more complex than just "money", or "governmental position".

Power is influence. If you look at the bigger picture, yes, white people have more "power". But to take that and assume that "all white people have more power" is an extremely general approach to take, and is comparable to saying that "all black people are poor", and other less appropriate generalisations.

My point? The definition (in so far as you've quoted it), doesn't appear to differentiate contexts. Contexts such as whether we're talking about an entire country, or just a small community, or even just a group of 2 or 3 people.

Power is influence. If one person, or even a group, has influence over another, he has "power". This could be a store manager, a policeman, a teacher. Or a political party. Anyone. If you're the only white resident in a predominantely black community, who has "power" and "influence" when it comes to a neighbour dispute, and finding witnesses to stand up in court? Certainly not the white guy, although I'm not exploring in depth here whatever bias might exist in court itself (that's a whole other dimension, and there are hundreds of other dimensions).

I hope you see my point.

Anyone can have power, and it can come and go in a matter of seconds. You have power if everyone in the room is listening to you, but then the school bell rings and no one cares anymore. You have power if you point a gun at someones face. Power can be physical, or intellectual, and probably many other things which I'm too tired to think of right now.

Anyone can have power, anyone can be racist. The argument you presented, can only be taken as far as saying that white people have in total more power than black people, and therefore can be, or are, in total more racist than black people. And I could agree with that, although it is only a theory, albeit based on logic (and corresponds to my observations). If you could statistically "quantify" degrees of racism, and add it all up across the population, obviously the racial majority will have a larger total. But that still doesn't make racism exclusively one-sided, and doesn't consider that someone who has "power", may not necessarily be "racist". It's what they chose to do with that power. But seeing that I believe that deep down blacks whites and everybody else is no different, I'm prepared to assume that whites and blacks have equal capacity for racism as a function of power, which cancels out the effect of "choice" because both groups are capable of being equaly evil or good. I hope that's not over your head (no offence, I'm not sure I get it myself. It's very difficult to word it when bringing together philosophy, ethics, and cold logic/maths together. If you get the idea of it, that's good enough). My bottom line is that on a macro-scale (not individually), racism is a function of population numbers and institutional power, and not choices which people make. But it's a function of those things, and a
variable quantity... not that one is racist and the other isn't.

Still, like I said about the definitions earlier... racism... eugh. My brain shortcircuits at the thought of trying establish boundaries for the meaning of the word.
I'm not even joking, you could feel my forehead getting hot.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Black vs white racism - December 17th 2015, 03:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
That's the fucking problem. They found him. They dropped the charges eventually apparently, but they found him. Searching for a needle in a haystack... and finding it, takes a lot of time and resources. This was before the recent facial recognition gimmicks were widespread in social media.


Utopia for who? Every person is different, and for me, that would be a nightmare. Besides, it wouldn't be sustainable. I've never thought of it this way, but if political correctness were the biggest problem to that kind of extent... I imagine no person would be saying anything to anyone in public for fear of offending someone, and instead would just cast stupid shy smiles at other people like halfwits. Or maybe not even that, in fear of being acused of being a "creep and a stalker".

I'm not making any kind of point with that, just thinking out loud. It'd make an interesting movie. Anything taken to banal extremes is unsustainable, counterproductive and often simply idiotic. That's not something unique to political correctness.
A society where the outspoken lose their influence and are evened out along with the naturally quiet? No more loud, obnoxious music? No more annoying, outward expressions of love by couples? Now that IS my utopia. Me, an extremely shy, good-looking person with no current influence would suddenly be at the top of society without having to say a word, because I know how to do live that way...
Don't get me wrong. I'd enjoy that for like an hour and a half. It sounds genuinely horrible after the enjoyment for ONLY myself would disappear. But thats the thing about utopia and other concepts like heaven. Occasional suffering must be had by all in order to know true enjoyment. (Lets not get sidetracked, but my heaven would involve lots of up and downs and adventure)
Thinking that over though, if thats my utopia, I have a warped mind...


Wish I lived in Canada. UPDATE, NOV. 9th, 2016: This statement has become even more appropriate.
I vow that I will attack this endeavor with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. Jim Harbaugh

"Being an adult sucks. The only positives are weed, sex, and cars, and I have none of those right now." -Me

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hatred cannot drive out hatred; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King Jr.
   
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