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Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 03:16 PM

This thread has been labeled as triggering by the original poster or by a Moderator. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

Article:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/pm-muslim-...035538019.html

Fucking finally.

My only criticism is similar to some of those in the article... that it is not enough. That larger populations should be targeted, not just "Muslim women" (I don't even know why they'd just target women). But it's a start.

I'd like to see this targeting pretty anyone who choses to migrate to the UK. Give them 2 or 3 years to adapt, if they fail... then ask the question why. Do they have a disability? Are there some good reasons? And if there aren't any good reasons... then go back.

I seriously mean it.

I'm not one of those pricks on the busses who gets pissed off when he hears "foreigners" speaking "foreign". I don't give a toss about it. What I do care... is them not speaking almost any English whatsoever, and only living in their reclusive closed communities.

I just hope this is being done for the right reasons, and not just for publicity. I hope there will be a genuine effort behind this, and not just done for appearances.


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 03:49 PM

Hopefully they'l start making people from Yorkshire speak English as well >.>

But yeah, about time but they do need to introduce it to ALL non-native speakers.
And hopefully give them lessons on how to not shout when they're on public transport/whilst shopping >.>
   
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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 03:55 PM

Why would one assume a Muslim person doesn't already know English? Many people learn English nowadays. 2-3 years is not reasonable at all. It takes years to learn a new language. Also, my concern isn't Englih but rather all the languages that will soon be endangered, and the cultures that come with it. English has become overly dominant, there's no doubt people who find it useful will learn it, with all the free resources.but personally I'm concerned that the US is way too monolingual, with all its English only laws. Furthermore, you can thrive just fine in NYC if you live within an ethnic enclave and happen to not know English "fluently" so why should we force people to learn English. And for cities not as diverse as NYC, I'm sure there's a compromise like kids learning it in school and growing up to speak English just fine. . what about the older population, it is harder to learn a language at age 50 or something. Are we really going to humiliate them because we happen to not living in a disastrous warzobe like the places they're fleeing from? What about AAVE? Is that English enough? Are we really going to tell African Americans and such to speak "proper" English? I think US and folks really need to take a step back and chill. Let's just focus on what matters.
   
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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Lonely-Goatherd View Post
Why would one assume a Muslim person doesn't already know English? Many people learn English nowadays. 2-3 years is not reasonable at all. It takes years to learn a new language. Also, my concern isn't Englih but rather all the languages that will soon be endangered, and the cultures that come with it. English has become overly dominant, there's no doubt people who find it useful will learn it, with all the free resources.but personally I'm concerned that the US is way too monolingual, with all its English only laws. Furthermore, you can thrive just fine in NYC if you live within an ethnic enclave and happen to not know English "fluently" so why should we force people to learn English. And for cities not as diverse as NYC, I'm sure there's a compromise like kids learning it in school and growing up to speak English just fine. . what about the older population, it is harder to learn a language at age 50 or something. Are we really going to humiliate them because we happen to not living in a disastrous warzobe like the places they're fleeing from? What about AAVE? Is that English enough? Are we really going to tell African Americans and such to speak "proper" English? I think US and folks really need to take a step back and chill. Let's just focus on what matters.
First, this is in the UK.
Secondly, this isn't targeting refugees, it's targeting the high Muslim migrant population who don't integrate themselves into society. There are whole (backwards) Muslim communities where women are expected to stay at home and do fuck all except be a housewife aren't allowed to go out. Forcing them to learn English is also forcing them to go out and integrate with English society.
I know I'm saying integrate a lot, but that's because there are essential Muslim colonies spotted around the UK where they even set up Sharia courts. These are also the areas that radicalisation occur.
Thirdly, why the fuck shouldn't you learn the language of the country you're moving to? Everything is in English. Food is in English, laws are in English, signs are in English and it's not that the UK wants to wipe out other languages because there are still areas of Wales where everything is in Welsh! It's ridiculous to think not learning English is fine.
   
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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 04:18 PM

Maybe this is because I'm from the U.S. and have a different perspective...

but why do they need to be "integrated" at all? Why can people not live in a new place while retaining their culture? Why can't we have information and documents (e.g., government stuff, even literature) in multiple languages?

If people want to live in their "reclusive closed communities", isn't that their choice? I feel like we should respect that...


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 04:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Loving Linux Penguin View Post
Maybe this is because I'm from the U.S. and have a different perspective...

but why do they need to be "integrated" at all? Why can people not live in a new place while retaining their culture? Why can't we have information and documents (e.g., government stuff, even literature) in multiple languages?

If people want to live in their "reclusive closed communities", isn't that their choice? I feel like we should respect that...
Because their culture is awful. Extremely sexist, Sharia courts, things like FGM can still happen (illegally) I believe. There have also been rape gangs and it's where radicalistion occurs.
   
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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 04:52 PM

I'm just talking in general, not about Muslims.

I'm all for people retaining their different cultures, but I am not for people pushing their beliefs on other people. For instance, celebrating Halloween was something I grew up doing in school. My schools had parties and we would wear our costumes during the day, and that is something I'll always remember. When my younger sibling got old enough for school, though, they cancelled Halloween and other related things because it offended people who recently moved to the US from another country. I don't think we should have to drop everything to accommodate other people. People should know, before moving to another country, that things work differently and they can't expect us to drop everything to make them feel more comfortable. If I moved to another country I wouldn't expect people to change their way of living for me. If they want to keep to themselves, that's fine, but we shouldn't have to completely change things we do for them. Do I think people should retain their culture? Most definitely, because we can learn different things but I do think they should at least try to adapt to other cultures, even if they do it in small ways. We need more open mindedness.


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 05:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post


Because their culture is awful. Extremely sexist, Sharia courts, things like FGM can still happen (illegally) I believe. There have also been rape gangs and it's where radicalistion occurs.
Muslim culture is not awful. Radical Islam, just like extremist Christianity with members who shoot up women's health clinics, is damaging. Sexism is around in every religion (including Christianity using marriage as a tactic to sell women), Sharia court being one of many examples of extremism being turned into law, FGM isn't even a Muslim practice (it's practiced by some Muslims in a few African communities but isn't a trait of Islam itself), gang rapes unfortunately happen everywhere and cannot be solely tied to one faith...etc. The list goes on and on.

I've tried to write about more personally about how offended I am by this comment but I can't. I just can't believe people in my generation still think this way. Islam isn't the problem, hatred is the problem, and I think you need to take a look at your own belief system and how this us vs. them thinking continues the cycle into violence.


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post


Because their culture is awful. Extremely sexist, Sharia courts, things like FGM can still happen (illegally) I believe. There have also been rape gangs and it's where radicalistion occurs.
Sources? Isn't there rape culture in Western society too? Isn't there sexism here too? Isn't there radicalism here too?

But either way, we were talking about the language itself right? I'm guessing Arabic and other languages that muslim populations tend to speak?
I know the Arabic language and I can vouch that there's nothing wrong with it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassado View Post
I'm just talking in general, not about Muslims.

I'm all for people retaining their different cultures, but I am not for people pushing their beliefs on other people. For instance, celebrating Halloween was something I grew up doing in school. My schools had parties and we would wear our costumes during the day, and that is something I'll always remember. When my younger sibling got old enough for school, though, they cancelled Halloween and other related things because it offended people who recently moved to the US from another country. I don't think we should have to drop everything to accommodate other people. People should know, before moving to another country, that things work differently and they can't expect us to drop everything to make them feel more comfortable. If I moved to another country I wouldn't expect people to change their way of living for me. If they want to keep to themselves, that's fine, but we shouldn't have to completely change things we do for them. Do I think people should retain their culture? Most definitely, because we can learn different things but I do think they should at least try to adapt to other cultures, even if they do it in small ways. We need more open mindedness.
I do see your point. Taking out Halloween is silly. Considering it's a public school system. Not to mention it's a fun holiday :P
In my old building we had a Christmas tree but because a lot of the tenants were Jewish there was an electric Hanukkah menorah as well and would be lit one for each night. I thought that was a good idea. Celebrating diversity and such, or having some kind of lesson plan in social studies class where you learn about world religions. But it's not about removing cultures entirely, as Halloween is part of a culture too, and happen to be widely celebrated in the USA. It deserves respect. Not to mention Halloween is totally secular these days


edit: On second thought, now that I recall a class discussion about Halloween..we talked about possible offensive costumes. I wonder if that's something that had to do with the banning Halloween, not the holiday itself. But either way, that's controversial and could have been just been dealt with on the costume by costume basis no reason for a school to ban an entire activity. That doesn't ease the tension, at all.
   
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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 05:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post


Muslim culture is not awful. Radical Islam, just like extremist Christianity with members who shoot up women's health clinics, is damaging. Sexism is around in every religion (including Christianity using marriage as a tactic to sell women), Sharia court being one of many examples of extremism being turned into law, FGM isn't even a Muslim practice (it's practiced by some Muslims in a few African communities but isn't a trait of Islam itself), gang rapes unfortunately happen everywhere and cannot be solely tied to one faith...etc. The list goes on and on.

I've tried to write about more personally about how offended I am by this comment but I can't. I just can't believe people in my generation still think this way. Islam isn't the problem, hatred is the problem, and I think you need to take a look at your own belief system and how this us vs. them thinking continues the cycle into violence.
I don't think he was saying that Muslim culture itself is wrong. I think he was directing the awful culture thing to the people who practice sharia law in the UK. He was saying that them being reclusive and not educated on what is going outside of their tiny world is a breeding ground for extremism. And that's why he thinks they should learn English. If you immigrate to a foreign country you should be proud of your roots but you must also realize that this country is different and you must adapt.
   
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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 05:38 PM

If you look at other Muslim countries, its important to note that Indonesia, the Muslim country with the most people, is pretty egalitarian based on the fact that they've had a woman as president (1 out of 7 compared to USA's 0 out of 44). It might not sound like much, but it takes a lot for a society to actually get to that point. The US still hasn't gotten there (yet). Countries like Saudi Arabia and the like have always been misogynistic, even before Islam appeared.
The line, "they must speak English" is a line that the American Tea Party has been saying for awhile to target Mexicans. Since they're wrong and pretty radical on basically every issue (seriously, look up those fuckers), I'm skeptical of this idea.


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 05:49 PM

Well with the woman president thing, should the U.S. elect someone solely beaches they are a woman? I don't think most of Americans care whether or not the candidate is a woman but more so on what they believe. I don't want Sarah Palin as president. Do you? Most Islamic nations do though have an extreme sexism problem. The west has gotten past this a long time ago and although many people may feel they are "oppressed" they have no idea compared to some of the women in Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia ect... Not all people in those countries live like that but many do. I think if you are immigrating to a country you should do your best to acclimate to that culture and to learn the language of that nation. You don't have to be perfect but please learn the language. If I'm going to live in Paris for a while I should try my best to learn a little French. It's just common sense. Learning a little of the language native to the country you are in makes it easier for everyone.
   
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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 06:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post


Muslim culture is not awful. Radical Islam, just like extremist Christianity with members who shoot up women's health clinics, is damaging. Sexism is around in every religion (including Christianity using marriage as a tactic to sell women), Sharia court being one of many examples of extremism being turned into law, FGM isn't even a Muslim practice (it's practiced by some Muslims in a few African communities but isn't a trait of Islam itself), gang rapes unfortunately happen everywhere and cannot be solely tied to one faith...etc. The list goes on and on.

I've tried to write about more personally about how offended I am by this comment but I can't. I just can't believe people in my generation still think this way. Islam isn't the problem, hatred is the problem, and I think you need to take a look at your own belief system and how this us vs. them thinking continues the cycle into violence.
Muslim rape gangs:
Rotherham
'At least 1,400 children were subjected to appalling sexual exploitation in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013, a report has found.'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-28939089

Birmingham
'Police have today been forced to publish a damning child sexual exploitation problem profile document after a Birmingham Mail campaign - and admitted 'significant similarities' to the Rotherham abuse scandal.'
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...arebar_twitter

For other rape/sexual assault just look up the rape statistics in Sweden in relation to immigration and the New Year's attacks in Germany.

FGM
'Over 1,700 victims of FGM were referred to specialist clinics in the last two years' Although it doesn't mention Islam it's not the natives doing this.
https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-...ts-statistics/

Sexism
While sexism may be around in other religions it isn't around in western culture. It does still exist in Muslim culture. There have also been cases of 'honour' killings/crime.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33424644



I am NOT generalising, these things are happening and it is a problem. It's people like you, who just yell racism, that enable this shit to go on. Just look at the rape gangs for proof of that.

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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 06:11 PM

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Originally Posted by A-Lonely-Goatherd View Post
[font=Book Antiqua][color=darkorchid][size=3]

Sources? Isn't there rape culture in Western society too? Isn't there sexism here too? Isn't there radicalism here too?

There is no Western 'rape culture' but apparently there is a Muslim rape culture. There may be sexism here, but it's no where close to the sexism in Muslim communities.
What do you mean by 'Isn't there radicalism here too?', do you mean white people? Because yeah, they may be 'radicalised' but I've yet to hear about a white terrorist attack in the UK that wasn't caused by the IRA. This is still bad though and they get punished harder because it's a hate crime.

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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 07:14 PM

I get the point, but forcing people to improve their English language skills isn't going to stop some of their practices, or lower the threat of terrorism (both of which, I hope would be the minority extremist groups, and not generalising all Muslims). And why only women? I'm wondering if the article is just one of those propaganda things to keep the public happy that the government is trying to tackle the issues of immigration and the risk of terrorism.


Quote:
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Thirdly, why the fuck shouldn't you learn the language of the country you're moving to? Everything is in English. Food is in English, laws are in English, signs are in English and it's not that the UK wants to wipe out other languages because there are still areas of Wales where everything is in Welsh! It's ridiculous to think not learning English is fine.
When the English migrated to Wales as part of the Industrial Revolution, they banned Welsh in some schools- it was seen as inferior and most English people never learned Welsh though they moved to Wales. You would get beaten in school if you were found speaking Welsh. They forced English. That's why most people in Wales speak English today. There are lots of signs in both Welsh and English, but only a small minority speak Welsh- mainly in the West or the North. It's tragically considered a dying language, so I would be concerned about forcing anyone to learn English or face a penalty if their level isn't good enough.

On a slightly humorous side note, I'm wondering what would happen if the government decided to introduce penalties for those who fail to obtain a decent grade in GCSE English...pretty sure there would be out roar


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 07:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Lonely-Goatherd View Post

I do see your point. Taking out Halloween is silly. Considering it's a public school system. Not to mention it's a fun holiday :P
In my old building we had a Christmas tree but because a lot of the tenants were Jewish there was an electric Hanukkah menorah as well and would be lit one for each night. I thought that was a good idea. Celebrating diversity and such, or having some kind of lesson plan in social studies class where you learn about world religions. But it's not about removing cultures entirely, as Halloween is part of a culture too, and happen to be widely celebrated in the USA. It deserves respect. Not to mention Halloween is totally secular these days


edit: On second thought, now that I recall a class discussion about Halloween..we talked about possible offensive costumes. I wonder if that's something that had to do with the banning Halloween, not the holiday itself. But either way, that's controversial and could have been just been dealt with on the costume by costume basis no reason for a school to ban an entire activity. That doesn't ease the tension, at all.
Yeah, I thought it was silly too. I totally understand that some Halloween costumes are offensive to different religions, or even different countries as a whole (people once wore costumes of the fallen twin towers) and I can understand looking at individual costumes. I am pretty sure they cancelled it because the holiday as a whole was found offensive. Since the celebration for those schools was for kids of around age five to eleven, I don't think anything would be particularly offensive but you never know.

I think it's cool how your old school had a Christmas tree and a menorah too. I like things like that. Having so many different cultures around you gives you the opportunity to learn about different traditions and practices. The celebrating of diversity is a great thing. I used to live in a big area and at the grocery store, I could hear ten or more different languages used throughout the store and in check out lines.


Quote:
I get the point, but forcing people to improve their English language skills isn't going to stop some of their practices, or lower the threat of terrorism (both of which, I hope would be the minority extremist groups, and not generalising all Muslims). And why only women? I'm wondering if the article is just one of those propaganda things to keep the public happy that the government is trying to tackle the issues of immigration and the risk of terrorism.

I agree with this. Learning English can help people communicate, and it can make it easier in that regard but it isn't going to stop people from their own practices or decrease terrorism. If anything, forcing people to learn English could make them angrier and maybe increase the threat.

I do think people should consider learning the language, but I don't think it should be mandatory. I don't think we should penalize people for not knowing English either.


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 18th 2016, 09:25 PM

I did not expect this thread to gain so much traction. Lots of replies, too little time to read it all in detail. A few extra points to add to what I said earlier, and maybe correct what I said because of my brevity:

  • Reclusive, isolated communities aren't a problem, if they don't cause problems. Muslim isolated communities are causing problems.
  • Many Muslims do not know English. Many Muslims do know English. You don't force Muslims who already know English, to learn it again. Of course that's stupid. You test their proficiency, and make it mandatory for them to reach a basic level within a certain timeframe.
  • No... the intention is not to re-educate all minorities to speak perfect English. The intentions are to enable them to communicate effectively with the general public, without needing their husband with them all the time, or a paid interpreter, and to generally increase their interraction with the general public. I don't think the expectations are for them to pass GCSE English with a C grade or higher. It should be encouraged, but not forced to that extent. I have a feeling it won't be GCSE though, but some more internationally recognised qualification instead.
  • Forcing them to learn English... won't decrease terrorism, at least directly. But it should help integrate Muslims and Brits better, and break down the barriers of hostility that are forming between them. If that decreases the numbers of far-right supporters, which in turn decreases the amount of hostility Muslims face, then maybe, it will decrease terrorism, or at least, home-grown terrorism.
  • Economic gain. Communication is vital for the functioning of any organisation or country. Having whole areas, boroughs, etc that speak very little English is divisive, and unproductive. These people's potentials are being wasted. What kind of jobs exactly can they do, if they don't speak the language? At best, only in their own communities. The competitiveness is reduced, and again... it isolates them. Pretty much every point circles back to the same issue.
  • Many people find it much harder to empathise with someone on a regular basis, if they cannot even communicate properly with them. Not only their burka (which I've made peace with, although I think they are harming themselves wearing it) obfuscates all of their body language, which is supposed to represent 80% of our communication, but if they can't even speak English with a cashier... it just puts a nail in the coffin. It's like you're literally interracting with a ghost dressed in black. Like I said... it makes it hard for people to empathise with them. It harms them, by creating misunderstandings, divisiveness, etc.
  • Forcing or encouraging people to learn English when they move to a English speaking country... doesn't mean forcing them to not speak their native language. I mean common. That's fkking logical.
  • What exactly is "rape culture"? Is it not relative? Sure if you look hard enough you will find arseholes everywhere, but there is no hiding the rise in rape stats since migrants were let in. This isn't even something worth debating anymore. Facts have been established. But it is the men who are responsible for this. Targeting Muslim women with English courses... I really have no clue how the two are connected.
  • That the "Tea Party" in the USA uses the same moto, doesn't by itself mean much. To what end do they say this? What are their motives? Is their intention simply to be demeaning? Or is it to help integrate Mexicans? I know very little about whatever problems America has with Mexico though.
  • I presume women are being targeted, because men are assumed to already know English to satisfactory standards.


Lastly (I think other people covered this), if you move to a foreign country, you should certainly not expect that country to adapt to you. It is unnatural, and unhealthy. When I go abroad for holiday, I don't expect them to speak English. I don't expect to be given an interpreter. I don't expect to have Mosques taken down because they "offend me" (I'm not saying they do). I may be pulling this out of context a lot, but it is an extremely egocentric thing to expect your environment to adapt to you, instead of the other way round. Pathological egocentricity is correlated strongly with certain personality disorders, which arise from genetics and the enviornment. This should not be encouraged in any way. Welcome them? Yes. Spoil them with excessive tolerance? No. If you keep bending over to people, they will exploit you. It's not something unique to Muslims. In fact, not unique to people even.


.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 19th 2016, 04:33 PM

Hey,

Personally I believe anyone going to live in another country should do their best to embrace the language and try their best to fit into society. For me this applies to people of all cultures, not just Muslim women. If I was going to live somewhere and English was not the first language then the first thing I would do would be to try and learn as much as possible, that might mean learning as you go too but making a conscious effort to communicate with people in my new home. My family don't originate from the UK, but they still learnt how to speak English if they didn't know already, and although their English may not be fluent they are still able to communicate with others and be understood. I don't expect people to be fluent, but at least know enough of the language to be able to ask for something. It takes time to learn a language, some people will take years before they grasp a new language but I think as long as people want to learn a language and do their best to learn to communicate in their new home then I see no problem.

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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 19th 2016, 10:21 PM

It would be great if every migrant to the UK knew basic English, at least. But what are you supposed to do if they don't, kick them out?


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 20th 2016, 12:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
It would be great if every migrant to the UK knew basic English, at least. But what are you supposed to do if they don't, kick them out?
If they don't, ask why first. Disabilities? Family trauma? Maybe the are simply mute. But, if there is no good reason... then yes. Sayonara.

There needs to be cause and consequence. If some individuals can't bring themselves to respect the country they migrated to and even make the slightest effort to learn the language and know how to ask for directions, then they shouldn't be living there permanently.


.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 20th 2016, 02:42 AM

I think that this is a really complicated topic and there's not really one right answer.

On the one hand, I believe it's important for people to retain their culture as much as they can, and forcing everyone to learn English takes away from their language, which is a large part of a culture. People who don't speak English probably have a lot of things to figure out as they come to a new country – getting a job, a place to live, supporting family, etc., and requiring that they learn an entire new language on top of that is going to be very difficult for people. Of course, learning English might be helpful in the long run, but the requirement may make it harder for people to settle into their lives. It takes away time and, if they have to pay for their own classes, money.

I see why it's important for people to learn English, though. It's really a necessary skill to speak the language of the place you're in, and it'll make lives so much easier in the long run. I think the best way to pull this off is to require them to learn English, but keep letting them practice their cultures and not forcing or encouraging them to adopt typical English traditions. Like others already addressed, differences in culture isn't necessarily an issue, and I believe diversity should be celebrated whenever possible. Also, if possible, I think the government should be providing the English classes if they're required.

This is an interesting article, though I was also wondering why it was aimed specifically at Muslim women.



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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 20th 2016, 05:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
If they don't, ask why first. Disabilities? Family trauma? Maybe the are simple mute. But, if there is no good reason... then yes. Sayonara.

There needs to be cause and consequence. If some individuals can't bring themselves to respect the country they migrated to and even make the slightest effort to learn the language and know how to ask for directions, then they shouldn't be living there permanently.


.
I would put the people over the country any day. If they are to be compared, I would ask the question of, "Who is affected worse, the person or the country?" The bad effects of a non-English-speaking immigrant on the country in 99 cases out of 100 would be pretty minuscule. It would annoy some people, and I imagine it would maybe slow things like transit or transactions down. Possibly they'll be on welfare because they can't find work. On the other hand, the immigrants, especially Middle-Eastern immigrants, probably left for a first-world country because their quality of life was worse. Especially if they came from a hostile country, deporting them back to their native country would toss them back in the fire, possibly destroying their life. I don't think the pros outweigh the cons, not even close.


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 20th 2016, 10:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
I would put the people over the country any day. If they are to be compared, I would ask the question of, "Who is affected worse, the person or the country?" The bad effects of a non-English-speaking immigrant on the country in 99 cases out of 100 would be pretty minuscule. It would annoy some people, and I imagine it would maybe slow things like transit or transactions down. Possibly they'll be on welfare because they can't find work. On the other hand, the immigrants, especially Middle-Eastern immigrants, probably left for a first-world country because their quality of life was worse. Especially if they came from a hostile country, deporting them back to their native country would toss them back in the fire, possibly destroying their life. I don't think the pros outweigh the cons, not even close.
I haven't thought about the difference between refugees fleeing war, and economic migrants.

Many are economic migrants. All my above comments were regarding them.

My attitude towards refugees would probably be to give them more time to adjust... after which, deporting them would be impossible, but certain priviledges such as various welfare or support packages would be partially withdrawn.

But I think that there is also a problem with a lot of people not differenciating at all between economic migrants and refugees.

The thing about placing "country" before "people"... is a slightly circular argument. By looking after the country, you are looking after the people. The current state of things is escalating, because migrants (mostly Islamic) have failed in integrate successfuly in huge numbers. I fancy having a far-right wing government about as much as anyone else on this forum, but at the same time think it is almost inevitable considering the way things have worked out. I prefer mild right-wing policies now, aimed at adressing these problems, than waiting longer and longer... whilst other right-wing leadership overtakes me and pushes even more extreme crap of theirs... which will probably also gain significant support.

I typed this in a rush. Gotta go.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; January 21st 2016 at 01:33 PM.
   
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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 20th 2016, 08:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post


First, this is in the UK.
Secondly, this isn't targeting refugees, it's targeting the high Muslim migrant population who don't integrate themselves into society. There are whole (backwards) Muslim communities where women are expected to stay at home and do fuck all except be a housewife aren't allowed to go out. Forcing them to learn English is also forcing them to go out and integrate with English society.
I know I'm saying integrate a lot, but that's because there are essential Muslim colonies spotted around the UK where they even set up Sharia courts. These are also the areas that radicalisation occur.
Thirdly, why the fuck shouldn't you learn the language of the country you're moving to? Everything is in English. Food is in English, laws are in English, signs are in English and it's not that the UK wants to wipe out other languages because there are still areas of Wales where everything is in Welsh! It's ridiculous to think not learning English is fine.

I don't usually get into these debates because its pretty pointless arguing with people who have made up judgements without looking at the whole story or even reading around such topics. This isn't intended personally to you by the way, just wanted to put across a point so maybe people would think before talking:

It's funny how people have assumed and targeted 'muslim women' to not know English. That's like saying all jewish/hindu/Sikh etc women must be made to learn English - who's to say they don't know it? And why is it based on a religion? i can understand if they said any foreign people from any country coming into the uk must be made to learn English but why just muslim women? What about all the recent migrants from Poland for example? Or do the people from Poland not need to know English to live in the uk?

What you're describing in regards to women being made to stay at home and do nothing, comes from a culture not a religion. In fact if you read up about Islam, women are held in upmost regard and are encouraged to educate work and live their lives. A famous quote from Islam origins - "Educate a man and you educate an individual, educate a woman and you educate a community"

For the record, I am a young Muslim woman, living independently, in my final year of study training to be a nurse. My religion encourages me to do that, My family's culture doesn't. Pull the two apart and you'd see the difference

Good day


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 21st 2016, 01:08 PM

Learning English will open doors for people, especially if they plan to live in the UK permanently, as it's needed for work etc. However, I don't believe it should be mandatory, and also we need to massively improve our adult education system if we ever want to help people learn English well.


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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 21st 2016, 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by x_sepi_x View Post



I don't usually get into these debates because its pretty pointless arguing with people who have made up judgements without looking at the whole story or even reading around such topics. This isn't intended personally to you by the way, just wanted to put across a point so maybe people would think before talking:

It's funny how people have assumed and targeted 'muslim women' to not know English. That's like saying all jewish/hindu/Sikh etc women must be made to learn English - who's to say they don't know it? And why is it based on a religion? i can understand if they said any foreign people from any country coming into the uk must be made to learn English but why just muslim women? What about all the recent migrants from Poland for example? Or do the people from Poland not need to know English to live in the uk?

What you're describing in regards to women being made to stay at home and do nothing, comes from a culture not a religion. In fact if you read up about Islam, women are held in upmost regard and are encouraged to educate work and live their lives. A famous quote from Islam origins - "Educate a man and you educate an individual, educate a woman and you educate a community"

For the record, I am a young Muslim woman, living independently, in my final year of study training to be a nurse. My religion encourages me to do that, My family's culture doesn't. Pull the two apart and you'd see the difference

Good day
I liked your post, but have one criticism. Culture and religion are often very closely inter-related, and occasionally even indistinguishible altogether and only differing in their dictionary definitions. "Culture" ought to be something broader, of which religion would be a part of.

It depends on just how secular a country (or community) is in general, and just how much influence religion has on politics, and other such things.

I agree with everything else though. I was initially puzzled by why they are targeting just Muslim women, but I've thought about it now for a few days... and have a few ideas. Firstly, there is a widespread view that Muslim women often get mistreated and oppressed by their culture. I'm inclined to agree. Of course some don't get mistreated, and maybe you didn't ... but I've made an effort to draw upon a variety of sources and reach my own conclusions (if you have anything of interest to contribute there that might change my mind, I welcome it by the way). I like to think that I'm not entrenched in my beliefs, but to change my mind I need to see evidence, and a rational progression of arguments, and not hysteria or circular arguments (which I find extremely annoying). This comment isn't targeted at you... but it's something I often encounter regarding "sensitive" social problems like that. It drives me nuts.

You sound very progressive, so I'd be surprised if Islam (or culture) had that kind of effect on you. I've known Muslims with similar attitudes, so I know it isn't something impossible, but certainly I don't think it's a prevalent feature amongst Muslims... even if only because Muslims in Europe (similar to blacks in America) are more often confined to poorer communities, which causes an assortment of related social problems.

Secondly (overlapping with what I said above), I think they're targeting Muslims because it is also widely regarded that it is Muslim communities who are facing the greatest difficulties in Europe. Polish (and I am half Polish), generally don't face the same problems, and many are taught English as a compulsory subject throughout secondary school. However, some missed out on the opportunity (as it happens, for whatever reasons). I hold similar disrespect towards Polish who live in the UK for 5 years and literally know no English whatsoever. That annoys me, but it doesn't seem to contribute to any significant problems (in contrast to Islamic communities). It's a low priority, is what I'm saying, if it even is a priority at all. I've asked people like that why they won't learn the language, and the most frequent answers I've gotten were "what for?". I mean... ffs. Laziness. Simple laziness. Being a citizen of both countries, I've also known English who relocate to Poland (not many though). Strangely enough, they more often make an effort to learn basic things like how to ask for milk, and I don't have to take on the role of "translator" around them. I attribute it to the more multicultural attitude of Brits, who more often appreciate the importance of succesfully integrating themselves into new environments, instead of isolating themselves.

I generally make an effort to toss whatever kinds of "patriotic" sentiments I have when I'm trying to reach objective judgements and/or conclusions about countries I've lived in, or people I've encountered. Ditching "patriotism" comes to me quite easily (side effect of mild Asperger's syndrome). What I'm trying to say, is I am often just as critical of certain UK customs. Compulsive binge drinking is one of them. I'm not going on about it here though, because it's out of context and kind of irrelevant. If someone has valid criticism about English people, I don't compain. Similarly towards Polish people. To address a problem, you need to recognise the problem, and not ignore it because it's "uncomfortable" to think about it, or "triggering". I'm not suggesting that's the case for you, but it is for a lot of people. Not just Muslims, or blacks. In fact... mostly whites from my experience. I can't stand it.


.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Muslim women must learn English - January 23rd 2016, 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
I liked your post, but have one criticism. Culture and religion are often very closely inter-related, and occasionally even indistinguishible altogether and only differing in their dictionary definitions. "Culture" ought to be something broader, of which religion would be a part of.

It depends on just how secular a country (or community) is in general, and just how much influence religion has on politics, and other such things.

I agree with everything else though. I was initially puzzled by why they are targeting just Muslim women, but I've thought about it now for a few days... and have a few ideas. Firstly, there is a widespread view that Muslim women often get mistreated and oppressed by their culture. I'm inclined to agree. Of course some don't get mistreated, and maybe you didn't ... but I've made an effort to draw upon a variety of sources and reach my own conclusions (if you have anything of interest to contribute there that might change my mind, I welcome it by the way). I like to think that I'm not entrenched in my beliefs, but to change my mind I need to see evidence, and a rational progression of arguments, and not hysteria or circular arguments (which I find extremely annoying). This comment isn't targeted at you... but it's something I often encounter regarding "sensitive" social problems like that. It drives me nuts.

You sound very progressive, so I'd be surprised if Islam (or culture) had that kind of effect on you. I've known Muslims with similar attitudes, so I know it isn't something impossible, but certainly I don't think it's a prevalent feature amongst Muslims... even if only because Muslims in Europe (similar to blacks in America) are more often confined to poorer communities, which causes an assortment of related social problems.

Secondly (overlapping with what I said above), I think they're targeting Muslims because it is also widely regarded that it is Muslim communities who are facing the greatest difficulties in Europe. Polish (and I am half Polish), generally don't face the same problems, and many are taught English as a compulsory subject throughout secondary school. However, some missed out on the opportunity (as it happens, for whatever reasons). I hold similar disrespect towards Polish who live in the UK for 5 years and literally know no English whatsoever. That annoys me, but it doesn't seem to contribute to any significant problems (in contrast to Islamic communities). It's a low priority, is what I'm saying, if it even is a priority at all. I've asked people like that why they won't learn the language, and the most frequent answers I've gotten were "what for?". I mean... ffs. Laziness. Simple laziness. Being a citizen of both countries, I've also known English who relocate to Poland (not many though). Strangely enough, they more often make an effort to learn basic things like how to ask for milk, and I don't have to take on the role of "translator" around them. I attribute it to the more multicultural attitude of Brits, who more often appreciate the importance of succesfully integrating themselves into new environments, instead of isolating themselves.

I generally make an effort to toss whatever kinds of "patriotic" sentiments I have when I'm trying to reach objective judgements and/or conclusions about countries I've lived in, or people I've encountered. Ditching "patriotism" comes to me quite easily (side effect of mild Asperger's syndrome). What I'm trying to say, is I am often just as critical of certain UK customs. Compulsive binge drinking is one of them. I'm not going on about it here though, because it's out of context and kind of irrelevant. If someone has valid criticism about English people, I don't compain. Similarly towards Polish people. To address a problem, you need to recognise the problem, and not ignore it because it's "uncomfortable" to think about it, or "triggering". I'm not suggesting that's the case for you, but it is for a lot of people. Not just Muslims, or blacks. In fact... mostly whites from my experience. I can't stand it.


.

This again brings me back to my point that culture and religion are two entirely separate things. It doesn't matter what religion or culture people are from if a person is going to hurt somebody else and mistreat them they'll do it. On that I was very mistreated, my religion does not allow that to happen at all, but culture does. They are two separate things. It frustrates me how religion and culture are just linked without no reason for it.
Example, A muslim family from France would follow a French culture, a muslim family from Pakistan follow a Pakistani culture, etc etc. The religion may well be the same but the cultures are entirely different. im gonna mention only the pakistani culture because thats where my family are from. The Pakistani culture is very backwards I believe, they prefer women to stay at home and play the typical "house-wife" role but Islam doesn't do that. The Islamic religion is totally different in that regard, yes women have a maternal duty to support their family's but not in the way culture portrays it. In Islam women are the backbone of the family, and are encouraged to work and be educated.. Again distinguishing the two, my family wouldn't allow me to study, hell they didn't even allow me to go to a mixed state school, I went to an Islamic girls school, they didn't want me to move away because they thought a girl should be at home living at home or married and living with her husband etc, but I chose to argue and fight all of that because they claim to follow a religion which disagrees with their culture. Being made to go to the Islamic school was a huge blessing in disguise, that's where I learnt the difference between culture and religion, its where I was encouraged to study and educate myself and achieve my goals. My family didn't do that, they didn't even know what I was getting taught lol it was only after wards towards the latter years of high school that they realised they were getting proved wrong - their culture was being argues with - but by then it was too late. I'd already learnt the true meaning of Islam and it is nothing like the oppression they made it out to be. On reading about it, it is such a beautiful peaceful religion. It's just people and their cultures that turn it into something it's not.. Anyway I have totally just rambled on there, but I guess you can see that from a muslim girls point of view it does get pretty frustrating that so many people are oblivious to religion and culture.

More to the point I still feel it's ridiculous to target "muslim women". Why one group? If they're that intent on people speaking English in England then they should be targeting anyone and everyone who doesn't speak English, religion culture gender or age aside.


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