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#BoycottTarget - April 26th 2016, 06:32 PM

Recently Target released a statement saying they support customers and employees using the restroom that matches their gender identity. The American Family Association has called for a boycott of Target. The fear is that male sexual predators will use this excuse to come into the women's restroom and assault women and young girls. This is actually an issue much larger than just Target right now in America. So called "bathroom bills" are at the forefront of American politics. What is your opinion of #BoycottTarget and, if you care to share, of "bathroom bills" in general?


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 26th 2016, 07:28 PM

Gonna jump in early before this thread turns into the classic fictional debate about trans people's right to validation and life in general.

Am I disgusted by these atrocious bathroom bills and their proponents? Absolutely yes. Am I surprised this is happening? Not in the slightest. It's the latest product of the persecution complex among white middle-class Americans. "Everyone is out to get me, think of the children, Obama is a reptile, etc". We're just the latest minority to get thrown under the bus because the majority doesn't like that we're being given recognition and basic human rights now and moral panic ensues as a result.

All you have to do is look at the rhetoric coming from people proposing bathroom bills. It's all very selfish. Cis people feel threatened by a hypothetical scenario that has never happened. There is absolutely zero rationale for this idiotic fear. And it's absolutely laughable that people claim they're scared for the safety of their children. The same people who leave handguns in the reach of their children are scared because a trans person might use the same bathroom as their kids. Give me a break. You're not concerned, you're just bigoted.

But it's not at all surprising. It's the same thing again really. Conservative politician demonizes members of a minority group and plays upon people's ignorance and paranoia. It's all too easy for cis people to prey on us, especially cis white propertied people who support these kinds of bills. I invite you to walk in my shoes, knowing that at any moment your civil rights can be taken away.

You fucking callous numbskulls.
   
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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 26th 2016, 08:57 PM

This has only come into light within the past week when that girl told her parents or the store's/restaurant's (not sure where it was) manager there was a creepy man watching her in the loo. This has never been an issue before, though transgender people, biological gender, and public restrooms have been a part of debate for some time. But it didn't become quite so controversial until that girl made the claim.

Do I believe her? Honestly, I think girls between the ages of 9-12 are diabolical. Boys are not as bad, but they can be jerks... girls, though, are so much worse. Is this girl just being a snippy spoilt brat? I can't say, but I can't say this guy did watch her from the loo and he isn't pedo. Since security cameras (or any form of cameras) are banned in public restrooms, we have to take this girl's word for it and be plunged into yet another controversy.

So, Target... Should they only permit bathroom rights to biological gender rather than perceived gender (ie, transgender/MtF/FtM/nonbinary, etc) instead? Of course not!

However, and now listen up... Let's take the woman from OTINB, she is all woman despite being born a man. She dresses like a woman, though her words stress transgender rights. I am very curious to see what she thinks and has experienced with this sort of hostile discrimination. Anyways, back on topic... If one is non-binary/not cis, then I would say, yeah, they need to go to the bathroom according to the proper anatomy; lest, they decide to petition for a gender-neutral bathroom which I totally think they should! Why hasn't this ever been brought up? What do non-binary members of TH say to this? I'm not trying to create an OT topic, but it is something to consider.

As for transgender, it's tough. Because if you are a man/woman who is transistioning into the opposite gender, then you should start behaving and dressing that way... However, I think what is going to happen now is that trans people are going to be cori-checked or there will be someone standing guard outside the bathroom. This will bring up a fresh batch of controversy with the Trans+ community, because it means searches/etc without their consent when they just want to use the loo.

I don't know. I think that girl should have kept her mouth shut. I hope her parents/guardians help her understand the difference between Trans Women and pedophiles, and not all Trans Women will look thru that space in the loo cubby. :/

Honestly, I think all children should be educated. Especially with Target jumping on this controversial bandwagon.
   
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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 26th 2016, 10:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lights. View Post
Do I believe her? Honestly, I think girls between the ages of 9-12 are diabolical.
I wouldn't really assume she made it up because she's a girl in a particular age range. I think, if it was someone who was not truly trying to look at her, she probably perceived it as such. However, as you said we can't know for sure what happened. I do think public bathrooms should fix the giant gaps between the stall door and the other part, no one wants to feel as if someone can see through regardless of gender. If people are truly that concerned of someone trying to peek over or under the doors, then they should petition for the doors to be taller/reach the floor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lights. View Post
If one is non-binary/not cis, then I would say, yeah, they need to go to the bathroom according to the proper anatomy; lest, they decide to petition for a gender-neutral bathroom which I totally think they should!
There has actually been discussion that preventing a non-cis person from using the bathroom of their choice is harmful to their health and wellbeing. In Doe v. Regional School Unit, they ruled that preventing a transgender student (they referred to her as Susan Doe) from using the appropriate bathroom was discrimination and harmful to her wellbeing. I would also imagine a transgender person using the bathroom of the sex they were assigned at birth is more likely to result in an assault/injury than if they were to use the bathroom they are comfortable in, though I don't have facts to support this other than the general knowledge of hate crimes. Preventing them from using the bathroom of their choice may also cause some people to avoid using the bathroom at all which can be harmful to health. Gender-neutral bathrooms are also not a realistic possibility, it would cost a large amount of money for facilities to add another bathroom.

As stated, the only way to prove what bathroom someone was assigned at birth would be to see which genitals they have. How do they decide who needs to be "checked?" Just the people who have specific features ie. masculine features on a woman? They would have to profile to even know who is and isn't transgender. This practice would be a violation of basic human rights.


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I don't know. I think that girl should have kept her mouth shut.
I absolutely disagree with this. If a child feels as if someone is doing something inappropriate then they should always tell someone they trust. I do think if someone is so afraid of their child being the victim of a crime in a bathroom that they're willing to sacrifice the safety and wellbeing of transgender and non-binary individuals then they shouldn't be letting their children go into public bathrooms alone. As it is, I rarely see young girls alone in public bathrooms. I can't speak for young boys since I've never been in a men's room.

I personally respect Target for their decisions in recent years. They started getting rid of gender signs in aisles such as toys, have started having at least one Caroline's Cart available in each store, as well as letting people use the bathroom of the gender they identify with. I think at the end of the day, if someone uses bathrooms as a way to commit a crime then it was probably someone who was going to find a way regardless. There are already many cases of men installing cameras in women's restrooms and changing rooms. From what I could find, allowing trans and non-binary people to choose their bathroom has not caused any rise in crime.



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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 26th 2016, 10:22 PM

I think people should use the bathrooms that they feel they identify the most with. I identify as a female and have never questioned my gender identity much so I don't understand what trans people go through. I can only imagine the struggles they go through and I want to treat others the way I'd want to be treated.

I know children can be cruel. I've seen things like this happen before. Years ago, a few girls at my brother's school made what were later said to be false allegations about their male teacher. They said he assaulted them after (because) he got them into trouble for bullying another student. Children can be cruel, and manipulative, but not all children are like that. And if a child is that way, it isn't natural, in my opinion. I think it means that something else is going on to them to make them that way.

I do think this girl's feelings are valid and should be listened to. It is entirely possible for anyone to harm a child or make them uncomfortable, regardless of their gender identity. Anyone is capable of harming someone else. I don't think people using the bathrooms of the gender they identify with are the people to do this, though. If anything, people who are transitioning are probably a lot more self-aware than most people, and since abuse is as common as it is, they might even have had some experience with abuse themselves. I think anyone who is cis can easily go into the opposite restroom and make people of any age uncomfortable. It would be easy for someone to take advantage of the ability to use either bathroom. While I don't think this is something that happens often, I am saying that it is entirely possible.

More than likely, a young girl saw someone who was transitioning in the bathroom and was uneducated and genuinely did feel nervous because of her lack of education.

That being said, children under a certain age, in my opinion, should not be left alone in the bathroom or in any area of any store. Parents need to watch their children more closely. I have watched parents leave their children to run through stores and I've even seen children playing on escalators, and parents who don't watch their kids like that are the first to sue.

Children should be educated, but everyone should be educated. Things are changing for the better, and we need to educate children and people of all ages. It should be something that should be covered in depth in health classes or something that schools could get speakers for an assembly. But, no matter what we do, there will still be ignorant people in the world. There are ignorant adults who will raise ignorant children and that is going to continue. People are going to resist change because that's just the way it is. I do think, that maybe, the amount of ignorant people will slowly decrease as the years go by.

People are scared of this change and they're using their child's well-being to try to justify it. But, like someone said, that's bullshit. It is just an excuse to resist change.


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 26th 2016, 10:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlowerPunkPrincess View Post
Gonna jump in early before this thread turns into the classic fictional debate about trans people's right to validation and life in general.

Am I disgusted by these atrocious bathroom bills and their proponents? Absolutely yes. Am I surprised this is happening? Not in the slightest. It's the latest product of the persecution complex among white middle-class Americans. "Everyone is out to get me, think of the children, Obama is a reptile, etc". We're just the latest minority to get thrown under the bus because the majority doesn't like that we're being given recognition and basic human rights now and moral panic ensues as a result.

All you have to do is look at the rhetoric coming from people proposing bathroom bills. It's all very selfish. Cis people feel threatened by a hypothetical scenario that has never happened. There is absolutely zero rationale for this idiotic fear. And it's absolutely laughable that people claim they're scared for the safety of their children. The same people who leave handguns in the reach of their children are scared because a trans person might use the same bathroom as their kids. Give me a break. You're not concerned, you're just bigoted.

But it's not at all surprising. It's the same thing again really. Conservative politician demonizes members of a minority group and plays upon people's ignorance and paranoia. It's all too easy for cis people to prey on us, especially cis white propertied people who support these kinds of bills. I invite you to walk in my shoes, knowing that at any moment your civil rights can be taken away.

You fucking callous numbskulls.
I'm not sure you understand how the minds of sex predators work. I'm not sure I do either (it's not something I have spent much time learning about). All I have to say about it, is that you might be surprised what lengths some people are prepared to go to, so they can satisfy some fucked up fantasy of theirs. And such people will by all means use existing social mechanisms to their advantage. By that I mean, social mechanisms such as the controversy surrounding these "bathroom bills".

Try to think from the perspective of such a sexual predator/pervert. I know it is difficult, and revolting, but it's a useful perspective. Why wouldn't they abuse the right to use another gender's bathroom? Because "normal" people don't do this? Sure, normal people do not. Sexual predators are not "normal people". Do not assume that they think they same way you do, or the same way I do, and that they want the same things in life, and are motivated in similar ways. In some extreme cases, comparing how some of these people's minds work to how the minds of normal people work, you could say is like comparing our 10-digit number system to a number system which somehow uses bar codes instead.

Personally, I do not have a dog in this fight. I simply don't know enough to make my mind up. All I advocate is that people take both sides of the debate seriously. People usually like to wait until a catastrophe happens, before they mount a speed camera at an intersection. Scaremongering is one thing, and yes it happens a lot. Especially in politics, right and left. It sucks, but nothing can be done about it. However, if there is objective evidence/information, which could suggest that there is a measurable potential for something bad happening, it should not be thrown out of the window because it does not align with some minority's politics. Or majority's politics. I really don't care what ideals are behind it. Everyone has ideals. Nobody's are any more "special" than anyone else's, yet almost every person seems to think that theirs are.

To be honest, I doubt sexual predators would be a big problem in public toilets. For rational reasons. There are are better "hunting grounds" (so to speak) which are less risky for them. But for fuck's sake, don't dismiss the possibility as "zero rationale" or however it is you put it. It still could happen, and is not at all unlikely in a nation of several hundred million people, with however many tens of thousands public toilets. I'd fucking choke on my lunch if I ever stumbled across a news story in the future where some kid "opened his/her mouth" about another person who alarmed them in the toilets, was ignored because it wasn't "politically correct" to speak about it, and it turned out later to be a genuine threat. This reminds me of the Rotherham rape scandal in the UK: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-s...shire-28951612

That's the BBC. Not some "right wing bullshit".

It is a completely different scale of things, but it illustrates my point perfectly. These kinds of things are then seized on by right wing extremism, and fuels it. I'm not at all saying that this is case for you, but even if you wouldn't care about the rape victims, or potential child abuse, then at least don't give right wing extremism the fuel it craves. This goes for any extremism really. Left wing doesn't have that kind of reputation as much though, but it happens.

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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 27th 2016, 12:55 AM

Jenna, what case are you referring to? I haven't heard about this.


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 27th 2016, 01:21 AM

These bathroom bills are disgusting and are hardly politics.

Good on Target. Though their gendered bathrooms are thoroughly gross and disgusting and even as a non cis gendered I use their family single bathroom since it's cleaner.


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 27th 2016, 01:40 AM

Nothing sends a message of consistent imbecility quite like selective faux-outrage wrapped in hypocritical, ill-informed declarations. If these bigots masquerading as vigilant family-minded friendly citizens want to at least be consistent in their boycotting, then they need to stop using the internet, as virtually all major internet providers have similar policies for their own employees, as well as stop using products from Microsoft and Apple for the same reason. The problem, of course, is that they can't spread their virulently misinformed stupidity without these engines of social interaction and sharing. Quite a shame, since it would spare us (or at least me) of hearing about their claims of protecting little girls from the non-existent threat of inter-sex individuals of doing anything other than peeing when they visit a Target bathroom.


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 27th 2016, 01:53 AM

It's people with power misusing it to push their own beliefs and discriminate against something/ someone they don't like or understand, end of story. LGBT is the current civil rights movement. Most people see these discriminatory "bills" and laws for what they are.


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 27th 2016, 03:46 AM

I don't agree with these bills. I, personally, hate how people are automatically assuming that transgendered people are pedophiles. Their struggle has nothing to do with any of that.

I don't shop at target all that often but I have been tempted to shop there to show them support.


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 27th 2016, 08:24 AM

What I've learned from this issue is that American conservatives think going to the bathroom is an inherently sexual experience.
Nobody should listen to the AFA and FRC (Family Research Council, who is also involved). Those people are lunatics, and they actually hold spots as hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center. There is a reason for that. In their commercial, they claim Target is hypocritical because they work with countries that punish homosexuals. That is unfortunate, but you also have to think in a different context: groups like the AFA and FRC have literally advocated for kidnapping the children of gay parents, and other people of their ilk have praised Uganda's death penalty policy for LGBT. (look up the Kevin Swanson/Ted Cruz rally) That's hypocrisy.
This is just another example of LGBT/"other"-phobia. Conservatives think the LGBT, a demographic that they clearly don't understand, are largely made up of pedophiles. They will always think that, especially with trans people, because "the Bible says so". It doesn't, by the way.
Could a guy suddenly use this as an excuse to cross-dress, sneak into a girls bathroom and rape someone? I guess its possible, but the situation isn't actually changing. A sign isn't going to keep someone out of a bathroom. Also, bathrooms aren't usually predatorily hunting grounds because they are high-risk for predators. It's a bathroom. There will always be people coming in and out, so its not something that can be pulled off without witnesses. As it is now, the bathroom sign wouldn't keep predators out anyway if they REALLY wanted to rape someone.
America also used to (unfortunately still do) believe that black people are inherently violent, so they felt a need to segregate them for the sake of "safety". There were other reasons, of course, but that was one, and it still exists today: people say, "I can't walk through the ghetto, I'm white, I'll get shot," but I'm from the ghetto and I'm still standing. They probably thought black people would attack white people in the bathrooms before they integrated them. No, people go to the bathroom to shit and piss.
Let's not forget that these same people who think that a simple bathroom sign and a law will keep rapists out of bathrooms are the same people who say that gun laws will have no effect on keeping criminals from getting guns. And lets also keep in mind that Republican politicians have a worse recent track record of bathroom misconduct than trans people do (look it up). The hypocrisy of the United States right wing is ridiculous, and I can't ever take them seriously. They are motivated by fear, not logic and critical thinking.


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 27th 2016, 10:15 AM

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To be honest, I doubt sexual predators would be a big problem in public toilets. For rational reasons. There are are better "hunting grounds" (so to speak) which are less risky for them. But for fuck's sake, don't dismiss the possibility as "zero rationale" or however it is you put it. It still could happen, and is not at all unlikely in a nation of several hundred million people, with however many tens of thousands public toilets.
Okay, I'll accept your hypothesis that it may happen, but I can't help but wonder; why have public bathrooms only become subject to hysteria once the prospect of a man claiming to be transgender and entering a female bathroom has been brought up?

Considering the majority of child sex abusers are heterosexual-identified cis adult men and their victims are often young boys, why hasn't there been any hysteria from these people claiming to be concerned for their children about adult males using the same bathroom as their sons? Is it because people don't care as much about male victims of sexual abuse or what?
   
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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 30th 2016, 02:09 AM

I get why parents are upset a man alone in the bathroom with a child is a problem


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 30th 2016, 03:43 AM

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I get why parents are upset a man alone in the bathroom with a child is a problem
Except trans women are not men, they are women. Many conservatives seem to hold this belief that having a penis = being a man when in fact gender is a construct completely separate from biological sex (which in itself is a social construct but that's another issue entirely). One's gender is NOT defined by one's genitalia. The concern isn't truly that men will come into a bathroom and molest women and children. As others have pointed out even if a sexual predator used these policies to gain entry to a women's restroom to prey on women it's extremely unlikely as they'd be easily caught. No, these laws are about demonizing trans women specifically (notice no one is making an uproar about trans men using the men's restroom, although they too will certainly be impacted if these bills become laws). These bills are not about protecting children from would-be predators. It's about denying basic fundamental rights to a group of people, plain and simple. So let's stop dressing it up the way we are and start calling it for what it is.


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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 30th 2016, 11:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlowerPunkPrincess View Post


Okay, I'll accept your hypothesis that it may happen, but I can't help but wonder; why have public bathrooms only become subject to hysteria once the prospect of a man claiming to be transgender and entering a female bathroom has been brought up?

Considering the majority of child sex abusers are heterosexual-identified cis adult men and their victims are often young boys, why hasn't there been any hysteria from these people claiming to be concerned for their children about adult males using the same bathroom as their sons? Is it because people don't care as much about male victims of sexual abuse or what?
You could be right. I haven't had the time to reply sooner, and I don't have time recently to look into this more to make my mind up about it. I said earlier that I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I still don't.

The main point of my post was, listen to the other side's arguments a bit more. Don't just swear at them or throw fits like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y69tkCbeC5o

(P.S. of course there will be jokes made at the expense of people who behave that way. It wasn't easy for me to find a clip of it as modest at that one is)


My other main point was, don't ignore children when they say something creeps them out in public toilets because it is "politically incorrect" to do so. I'll prioritize a kid's safety any day, even if he/she is a "spoiled brat", over the hurt feelings of a "trans-anything".

Should kids be better educated? Yes. It doesn't change what I've said though. And others here have said the same under this thread, and worded it better than I have. So I won't repeat myself.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; April 30th 2016 at 11:28 AM.
   
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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 30th 2016, 03:01 PM

This pretty much sums up my opinion:

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Re: #BoycottTarget - April 30th 2016, 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
The main point of my post was, listen to the other side's arguments a bit more. Don't just swear at them or throw fits
Very easy for you to say. Not saying you're wrong (though I have repeatedly listened to the other side's arguments, I have little choice actually, do you think this thread is the first time I've debated bathrooms in three years of transitioning? I simply grow impatient with having to listen to the same dehumanizing arguments over and over again). All I'm saying is it's easy to listen to the other side's arguments when you're not the one who's being suddenly thrown into a situation that puts your life at risk, because of the other side's arguments.
   
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Re: #BoycottTarget - May 1st 2016, 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlowerPunkPrincess View Post
All I'm saying is it's easy to listen to the other side's arguments when you're not the one who's being suddenly thrown into a situation that puts your life at risk, because of the other side's arguments.
Can you elaborate? If it isn't too personal that is.

I hear of all kinds of sick incidents surrounding fucktard fanatical political supporters. I hear of Muslims getting targeted and beaten up. I hear of black people being threatened and intimidated, by other black people, on their way to some conservative speaking event. I have heard of such things regarding the Black Lives Matter movement.

It's one thing to demonize the individuals responsible for such behavior. It's another thing to generalize and demonize the entire movement or ideology which they claim to support and all other people they perceive to support that movement. When people start doing that, they start becoming fanatics.

I say this because I sometimes get painted with the same brush as far-right extremists. Sometimes (less often) I get painted with the same brush as "leftists". Presumably to those people, that means that I support beating up Muslims? Or that I support oppression of Trans-genders? Or that I support intimidating Trump supporters? Or that because I support mixing of ethnicities in schools, that I am somehow pro-terrorist? What the fuck? Personally, despite all my advocacy of democracy, I believe terrorists should be shot, forgotten about, and denied any unnecessary media coverage. There is a strategic reason for this, not hate. Media coverage is exactly what these terrorists want, and it's what furthers their cause. Kind of like "don't feed the trolls". B
ut that's another topic.

I'm sick of this happening. It's a fucking insult to have some idiot think that of me. I usually make the effort to create sensible arguments, and instead I am confronted with this kind of idiocy. Most of the time now I consider it a waste of my time.

I'm done ranting. Like I said, if you have some personal story of being intimidated or assaulted that way for the politics you support, I'd be interested in hearing/reading it.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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