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Why I'm not a feminist - July 22nd 2016, 10:46 PM

I am all for equality and preventing women from being harassed - but mostly feminism just seems to be a bunch of women complaining about non-issues- or flat out encouraging women to be bitches. Here is an example that I recently read:

"Advice for girls: be loud and gross and take up space. Stop saying "sorry" and start saying "don't interrupt me". Stop saying "Because I have a boyfriend" and start saying "because I said so". Say "no" and say say "none of your business". Take selfies and don't laugh at jokes that aren't funny. Be snide and sarcastic and wear your hair the way you like it. Help out other girls and be vocal about what makes you mad. Be masculine and feminine and both and neither and be unapologetic. Don't set aside your comfort for boys' egos."

This is encouraging rudeness. If I work up the courage to ask a girl out, or make an effort to talk to her- I fully expect her to be courteous. I would be courteous if I were in that situation- it is just common human decency. Some guy they don't like asked them out or tried talking to them? Unless he is being harassing- boo hoo , cry me a river. They should get over themselves. Encouraging people to do whatever they want regardless of another person's feelings is NOT empowerment, it is selfish. I wouldn't want to live in a society where women are taught that they should be rude. It is bad for people of all genders to be rude- not just women. We live in a society with other people, we shouldn't just act the way we want because it is our right.

It is not just women that should be courteous either. I am a guy and:
-I go out of my way to not be loud or gross
-I try not to take up space and go out of my way to be accommodating
-if someone approaches me and I don't want to talk- I will say "sorry , I am busy doing something - blah blah blah". I wouldn't say " dont interrupt me".
- if a guy or girl asked me out and I didn't want to go out with them - I would say "thanks but ...im sorry and.." - NOT "no- because I said so"
-I am not sarcastic if it is rude sarcasm.


Basically, I try to be nice- not rudely sarcastic or flippant. That makes me better than a feminist.


Oh and apparently guys have "egos" while girls have "feelings"--you need to be decent to women to avoid hurting their "feelings"- but you need to encourage women to rude because, after all they don't need to be looking out for some guy's "ego". That's pretty sexist. Maybe if the majority of feminist articles and statements that I have read didn't have such a strong sexist undertone- I would identify with feminism- because after all, I believe in equal rights and that everyone should be treated fairly and without harassment- which is what feminists claim to be about.

Last edited by Proud90sKid; July 23rd 2016 at 12:25 AM.
   
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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 23rd 2016, 01:38 AM

3rd wave feminist is different. It's okay to feminist in general.
   
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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 23rd 2016, 04:11 AM

Somebody please explain to me your thoughts on "third wave feminist." I'm curious what those not miles deep in the movement think about me.

These issues might be small, but they contribute to a culture where men's feelings matter more than women's feelings, or her safety. I know people who have politely declined men in bars and have been harassed for the rest of the night, called names, had drinks spilled on them, etc. My "no" does not mean "try harder." You're stating you're a nice guy, but you're invalidating an experience you don't have. Feminists aren't saying take up all the space, they're saying take up the full bus seat and don't feel like you need to accommodate a guy sticking his knee into your thigh the entire time. (My recent Greyhound experience ) And nobody should have to give an excuse to decline somebody. If you're not interested, that's fine. Say that. I can politely decline somebody without the reason being "I'm owned by another man, sorry." No. The reason is that I came here to watch the Cardinals game and I'm not interested in making new friends. So...a grownup can respect that.


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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 23rd 2016, 06:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
Somebody please explain to me your thoughts on "third wave feminist." I'm curious what those not miles deep in the movement think about me.

These issues might be small, but they contribute to a culture where men's feelings matter more than women's feelings, or her safety. I know people who have politely declined men in bars and have been harassed for the rest of the night, called names, had drinks spilled on them, etc. My "no" does not mean "try harder." You're stating you're a nice guy, but you're invalidating an experience you don't have. Feminists aren't saying take up all the space, they're saying take up the full bus seat and don't feel like you need to accommodate a guy sticking his knee into your thigh the entire time. (My recent Greyhound experience ) And nobody should have to give an excuse to decline somebody. If you're not interested, that's fine. Say that. I can politely decline somebody without the reason being "I'm owned by another man, sorry." No. The reason is that I came here to watch the Cardinals game and I'm not interested in making new friends. So...a grownup can respect that.

I think you might have misinterpreted parts of his post. He said on the very beginning he is against women being harassed. Also, when a guy goes after a girl not being a jerk about it but just an ordinary guy interested in someone, a girl, if she does not reciprocate the interest, can say "I'm not really interested in you but I hope you have a lovely day ect..." Something along the lines of that works. Not "I came here to do this not talk to you bye bye" How do they know you aren't interested if they don't even go up to talk to you? When a girl comes to me with her feelings and I don't feel the same way, I try and make it clear in the most courteous way possible that I don't have in interest in them that way. I would hope it goes both ways. Guys and girls should be respectful of one another. People should be respectful of one another. With the bus seat thing, I get its a specific example that serves as a basic part of a broader scale but, if you take up a seat designed for one person that's fine. No one should have a problem with that. When you take up a full seat designed for 2 people you are just being rude and disrespectful. Maybe I just don't understand general human courtesy though, I mean, I am a male lol. In all seriousness though you can't sit in a two seater and assume no one else will sit there. A male or female may sit next to you and you will have to suck it up. If they keep kneeing you then just ask them to stop. You don't have to put up with it. I'm all for women being treated equally. I am not however for the man bashing, man hating, all men are oppressive of women mentality that some "feminists" decide to spread out to people. If you believe all men are out to make you feel inferior then I'm very sorry but that's not the case. (I'm not saying you specifically just to let you know just addressing people like that.$
   
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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 23rd 2016, 08:28 AM

Modern feminism is toxic and is based on feelings rather than facts and statistics.
   
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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 23rd 2016, 09:04 AM

Modern feminism isn't feminism. It's gender-based elitism, being followed by fools who have no understanding on how world works.

Do men and women deserve equal rights in regards to... well, everything? Certainly.
Are they identical or one better than another? No, and nothing said or done will make it so.


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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 23rd 2016, 03:43 PM

DISCLAIMER: I am not someone who is especially informed about feminism, so if I say anything offensive or which you disagree with, PLEASE LET ME KNOW! I'd love to hear other people's opinions and become more knowledgeable about this subject.


Okay... so... I have a lot of thoughts about this, and it's kind of hard for me to explain them without a lot of elaboration, so please bear with me!


Basically, feminism today claims to fight for the equality of the genders/sexes and to eradicate sexism, but I think that when looking at the issues that feminism addresses, there are two main categories:
1- The type of sexism which oppresses only women and where men are put in a position of power and control, and
2- The type of sexism where both men AND women are oppressed.

The issues in category 1 were extremely relevant in the past, such as men being able to vote and women not having that right, but these major issues are sadly still present to this day, mostly in developing countries and in (what white cis westerners call) "minorities".
The issues in category 2 are relevant today mostly in the cis white western world where category 1 issues have already been eradicated, but are much more subtle (and in a way more complex) than the issues in category 1. They are issues which can be traced back to gender roles, which are created mainly by the media, advertising and the upbringing of children.
Sidenote: category 2 issues weren't really addressed in the past, because category 1 issues were much more urgent.

When you look up what feminism is, you'll mostly come across definitions such as: "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities". However, when feminism was first created, it was only addressing category 1 issues, where the structure of society oppressed ONLY WOMEN (to the benefit of men), so the true definition of the core of feminism is really "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of the equality of the sexes". Notice how in the real definition, feminism fights specifically for WOMEN'S RIGHTS to get gender/sex equality, whereas other common definitions claim that feminism was created to fight for gender/sex equality and there is no mention of women or rights specifically).

The problem with feminism in thecis white western world today is that the fight isn't so much for anyone's rights (because in legal terms men and women are equal) but for gender roles, which not only is more ambiguous and less understood but also applies to both men AND women. What I mean by this is that pretty much any sexist issue for cis white women ALSO has an equivalent issue for cis white men. For instance, some say that the fact women are expected to wear makeup is sexist, but SO IS the expectation that men can't wear makeup; some say that the fact women's opinions are often dismissed on account of them being too emotional and sensitive is sexist, but SO IS the fact that men are expected to not express any emotion or sensitivity, and as a result they need to bottle it up.

Now, getting nearer to the topic in this thread, the problem with feminism today is that many people (mostly women) are fighting against category 2 issues in the cis white western world in the name of feminism as if the only people affected by it are women, when in reality that isn't the case. What this does is it creates a problem for men because their issues are either not being acknowledged at all or they are deemed as less important than women's category 2 issues, but it is just as problematic for women because their category 2 issues cannot successfully be eradicated without men's category 2 issues also being acknowledged.


The kind of “feminists” who you have been talking about in this thread – women who support other women to act the opposite way to the gender role society has given them (saying they should act gross, be unapologetic, be rude) – I suspect are women who fight against women's category 2 issues without realizing that men's category 2 issues are just as valid and important, and that they have been exposed mainly to the (what I like to call) ignorant feminism which sadly is quite popular at the moment on social media. This “ignorant feminism” makes them believe that only they are the victims of society's gender roles, and as a result they often end up acting in radical ways and sometimes feel hate towards men, because they believe that they are the ones responsible for women's category 2 issues.


Anyways, all of this to say that I understand why you don't label yourself as a “feminist”, and that honestly the more I think about it the more I'm unsure about whether or not fighting against category 2 issues in the cis western world can be considered feminism at all, because to me it seems quite different. “Original feminism” was created to fight for RIGHTS, whereas “modern feminism”/ “third wave feminism”/ whatever you want to call it fights against GENDER ROLES.
All of that being said, I do believe that “original feminism” (as opposed to “ignorant feminism”) is still needed today to fight against category 1 issues, because many women belonging to minorities and developing countries still face the kind of oppression that today's cis white westerner women faced not that long ago.




If anyone is interested, here are some links to videos which talk about feminism. I don't necessarily agree with all that is said, but for the most part I think they're quite good sources and they helped me form the opinion I currently have on feminism:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLIkloMERFA …..... about why feminism is called feminism


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgK3NFvGp58 …...................... about intersectional feminism


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA6W...8_APULBqLgljy- …................................................. .. more on intersectional feminism


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9nT...8_APULBqLgljy- …................................................. .............. “feminism for dummies”


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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 23rd 2016, 07:01 PM

Honestly, no one has to explain why they don't want to go out with a person. The point is, women are always being told/forced to have to explain things. A simple, "I am not interested" is almost always met with some kind of third degree. If someone says they aren't interested it should be dropped but it isn't.

The point of the quote you posted is that women should not always have to accommodate other people which is something we are, generally, forced to do at all times. I don't agree with everything in the post and am going to bold the things I do agree with:

Quote:
"Advice for girls: be loud and gross and take up space. Stop saying "sorry" and start saying "don't interrupt me". Stop saying "Because I have a boyfriend" and start saying "because I said so". Say "no" and say say "none of your business". Take selfies and don't laugh at jokes that aren't funny. Be snide and sarcastic and wear your hair the way you like it. Help out other girls and be vocal about what makes you mad. Be masculine and feminine and both and neither and be unapologetic. Don't set aside your comfort for boys' egos."
So, in general I agree with most of it. Women are constantly forced to apologize for things and they are constantly made to set aside their comfort for boys egos. We say we don't feel like talking or don't act interested and most boys (not all) feel the need to continue talking or flirting. I've done experiments on this by sitting alone at a bar and numerous guys took it upon themselves to approach me. When I made it clear I was uncomfortable they continued bothering me. So, in general this post makes a lot of set.

And, don't get me started on other issues that exist today such as maternity leave and the pay scale for women and men.


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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 25th 2016, 12:33 PM

I just hate assholes. It doesn't matter if it's a guy "taking up all the space" at a bar, or some woman or girl doing similar horse shit. Doesn't have to be a bar. Could be public transport, and subtle things like someone taking up two seats instead of one even though there are other people standing. Honestly, it doesn't even matter if I feel like sitting. Just having someone like that in my proximity is enough to annoy me slightly.

I don't give a shit what people's insecurities are which apparently "make" them act that way, and I will not accommodate people like that, because it only encourages that sort of degenerate behavior. Oh, I understand why they might act like that (I've read about it). It doesn't mean I care. Because I do not relate to it at all. Because nothing or no one "makes" me act in any way. How I behave ultimately comes down to how I chose to behave, and I try to make the right choice. I don't have some sort of fucking inferiority complex at a bar which makes me push my elbow into the ribs of the guy standing next to me, or "prove my masculinity" (this actually makes me want to cry, it's so pathetic) to anyone. That doesn't mean that kind of behavior doesn't annoy me. I have mild Asperger's syndrome, which means I like my space. Hence I generally can't stand most bars. Most crowed places in fact.

I believe it is up to other people to make the "right" choices as well. Being provocative/passively aggressive/actively aggressive... is the wrong choice. Honestly, it has nothing to do with gender or politics for me. Like I said, I just hate assholes and do my best to avoid them. They are their own worst curse. Nobody genuinely likes people like that, besides themselves.

#1 P.S. I didn't talk much about how women/girls might act in similar ways. That's generally because it's less frequent for me. It think men tend to do this sort of shit to each other more often, and women tend to this to each other more often too. Across genders, not so much... but I am pretty sure men do it more to women than vice versa. Either how, those are all just facts (I think). Not excuses. I'd never passively advocate encouraging one gender to act more "arrogant & bitchy" just to "even the scales" with the other gender as if this were some "gender war" (stupid). At best, I might advocate discouraging and shaming behaviors of people who act like passive/active aggressive pricks. It just so happens that aggression more correlated with the male gender... so, that's just bad luck I suppose.

#2 P.S. I feel what I'm about to say is relevant. "Confidence", is feeling comfortable and secure in your own space. "Arrogance", is going outside of your own space and invading other people's space without their approval... and most people usually do not approve of it. Close friends might. Family might. Strangers in the street or public transport, very unlikely.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; July 25th 2016 at 01:35 PM.
   
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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 26th 2016, 06:58 PM

I am a feminist.

I understand everything you've said but I don't see why you can't identify as a feminist and disagree with rudeness from both genders. I have always believed feminism to be a matter of equality, not only for women but for men too. I know there are a few definitions of feminism, but for me, being a feminist means understanding that in developing countries, women still lack the right to vote, they are still married off to older men and forced to bare children they may not be ready to have. Feminism is, equally, seeing that in western countries, we do have the right to vote, but noticing that there still IS a pay gap and that it still isn't perfect. It's understanding that women may respond to attention by males in an undesired way because they might have been the subject of undesired attention previously. They may have a lack of trust because of the way they feel they have been oppressed by men in the past.

HOWEVER.

Feminism for me is knowing that males are also subject to inequalities. Male rape, for example, is often overlooked, and this is an issue for feminism. The fact that, historically, females have been given more lenient prisons sentances for the same crimes that males have committed in comparison, is an issue for feminism. Rights with regards to parenting, where women may be more likely to gain custody over a child simply because she is a woman is an issue for feminism.

In my personal opinion (and of course it is only my opinion, and anybody is free to disagree with me!), feminism is more than just giving women a voice, although there are millions of women who do need feminism in order to have that. It's about seeing that things have changed and also accepting that we have a long way to go in order for equality to truly exist, and it's about recognising that while women have been and are oppressed in ways men may never have experienced themselves, there are issues of equality for men as well. Feminism is about equality, it's not just about female empowerment, but we have to accept that it exists because that was something that in western societies, women have been missing, and that in other countries they still are.

As I say, this is my opinion and it's not the same as everyones, which is absolutely okay. But I do consider myself a feminist.


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Re: Why I'm not a feminist - July 26th 2016, 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irene Adler View Post
I am a feminist.

I understand everything you've said but I don't see why you can't identify as a feminist and disagree with rudeness from both genders. I have always believed feminism to be a matter of equality, not only for women but for men too. I know there are a few definitions of feminism, but for me, being a feminist means understanding that in developing countries, women still lack the right to vote, they are still married off to older men and forced to bare children they may not be ready to have. Feminism is, equally, seeing that in western countries, we do have the right to vote, but noticing that there still IS a pay gap and that it still isn't perfect. It's understanding that women may respond to attention by males in an undesired way because they might have been the subject of undesired attention previously. They may have a lack of trust because of the way they feel they have been oppressed by men in the past.

HOWEVER.

Feminism for me is knowing that males are also subject to inequalities. Male rape, for example, is often overlooked, and this is an issue for feminism. The fact that, historically, females have been given more lenient prisons sentances for the same crimes that males have committed in comparison, is an issue for feminism. Rights with regards to parenting, where women may be more likely to gain custody over a child simply because she is a woman is an issue for feminism.

In my personal opinion (and of course it is only my opinion, and anybody is free to disagree with me!), feminism is more than just giving women a voice, although there are millions of women who do need feminism in order to have that. It's about seeing that things have changed and also accepting that we have a long way to go in order for equality to truly exist, and it's about recognising that while women have been and are oppressed in ways men may never have experienced themselves, there are issues of equality for men as well. Feminism is about equality, it's not just about female empowerment, but we have to accept that it exists because that was something that in western societies, women have been missing, and that in other countries they still are.

As I say, this is my opinion and it's not the same as everyones, which is absolutely okay. But I do consider myself a feminist.
Perhaps my perception has been skewed then. The way I see it, modern 3rd wave feminism predominantly doesn't appear to concern itself much with inequality in developing countries. For whatever reasons, I could really digress a lot. Although maybe I'm wrong. Much of the "evidence" is based of what is in the media, which is very dubious.

The kinds of things I more often hear about is, well, the gender pay gap for example. It's worth some attention. These counter-arguments I'm about to list really have been floating around for a while now, so I doubt you've not heard of at least some of them already:
  • If women really earned 70 cents to the dollar compared to men, then people would just hire women and decrease their staff costs by 30%. Yet, it's not happening.
Really, that argument alone undermines the entire rationale of that "statistic" which is quoted over and over. But I'll continue:

  • The pay gap is quite simply the difference between average earnings of men and women working full time.
  • It doesn't account for what kinds of jobs they hold.
  • It doesn't account for what positions they hold.
  • It doesn't account for their qualifications (which recently are in fact on average better than male)
  • It doesn't even account for how many hours per week are spent on the job.
  • It doesn't account for the fact that women are from an evolutionary perspective, more emphatic than men, and favor jobs which allow them to use that to their advantage and make them feel more fulfilling/useful. Jobs which happen to pay less on average, perhaps because such jobs on average require less qualifications and are less technically demanding. This includes even things like whether they work the cashier at the supermarket, or work in storage instead. Most cashiers I see are female, presumably because they interact better with customers on average. Although in this case, I don't think storage or cashier pay is any different. It's why more human resources jobs are given to women.
  • From the previous point, women being more emphatic than men, also is why they favor spending more time with family, raising kids, at home, etc... explaining why on average they put in fewer hours per week.
  • Higher female empathy is also more/less why they tend to win custody of kids in court battles. None of this is "coincidence", or systemic "inequality".
  • Men being less emphatic is why they also tend to do "better" (for themselves) in cut-throat jobs such as high management positions
Counter-arguments to the above which I've heard, most typically are based off an assertion that women's choices are in fact not their choices at all, and are fundamentally corrupted somehow and flawed by some "invisible systemic force" (I don't know what to call this) which generates some peer pressure on them to take lesser pay, and lesser paying jobs.

Now. All the points I've listed, can be proven. I could start digging up articles, studies, and statistics right now. I'd rather not, since it takes quite a bit of time and I've got better things to do. The counter-argument I quoted (or maybe misquoted) however... not so much. Sure, it happens. But how often? When men on average hold more influential jobs than women (for the reasons I've listed), it will happen. That's the effect power has on people and societies. But today's society has come a long way since 200 years ago. Oppression of women has become so unpopular, that no serious employer would genuinely risk it, for fear of their share prices plunging.


On another note, if anyone told me or implied that my choices "aren't really mine", I'd kind of... I think I'd laugh in such a person's face. How patronizing. And a final note, I passionately despise the idea of embedding any political agenda whatsoever in educational standards. This is somewhat related actually. I've never been to "feminist theory class", but from what I hear, those are precisely the kinds of environments in which misleading statistics like the "gender pay gap" are generated.

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-30711726

http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgele.../#449db6011458

Targeting impressionable young individuals with political ideals is no different than feeding toddlers stories about Jesus. Sure, it appears harmless, maybe even good. Until the wrong people in some position of power, exploit it and turn it into a cult. Here is another example, not related to feminism specifically:

https://www.amazon.ca/Civics-Citizen.../dp/0199007691

Amazon allows people to view the first few pages (although the feature appears disabled now for some reason). The fact, that such a text book is targeted at impressionable youths, and asserts liberal principles as "facts" rather than "ideals", is precisely the kind of problem I am talking about. In my school there was a subject called "religious studies". It was good, because it mostly informed on every religion objectively, without any bias (although it did conveniently omit "sharia law" on the topic of Islam). This is very different to "bible bashing" and indoctrinating kids with just one point of view.

I've got no problem with liberal principles being detailed in school textbooks, provided that conservative principles are also given an equal platform. This is what encourages people to do their own thinking, and arrive at their own conclusions. Nobody is right about everything. Not liberals, or conservatives. Giving people just one set of ideals to chose from, isn't a choice at all. It's indoctrination.

This is all just a small part of a broader problem. It was hilarious how Boris Johnson (average UK politician, no prior extremism of any sort) was immediately "no platformed" by the NUS (National Union of Students), the instant he announced that he supported leaving the EU.

This is precisely the kind of shit I am talking about, and in a twisted way, a small part of the reason why some people even voted for the UK to leave the EU, although this borders on conspiracy theories as well.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; July 28th 2016 at 10:28 AM.
   
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