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Current Events and Debates For discussions and friendly debates about politics and current events, check out this forum.

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Interesting Perspective - August 21st 2016, 01:08 PM

Another perspective on things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Bt6b8PPP0

This is related to my other thread recently in this forum, where I mentioned left-wing extremism acting up in Europe. And I'll repeat what I said. I don't care what these "protestors" think they're fighting for. This sort of behavior is inexcusable, and deserves no leniency.

This behavior reminds me of something I remember from history classes ages ago. I do not remember the context whatsoever though. It was about thugs being positioned outside and around voting booths/centers in the country, to intimidate supporters of opposing political parties. I think this might have been the 1930's in soon-to-be NAZI Germany, but I don't remember.

Something to think about.

"Fuck fascism"? Then stop fucking acting like fascists.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; August 21st 2016 at 01:33 PM.
   
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Re: Interesting Perspective - August 22nd 2016, 01:51 AM

I always respected the right to protest, even if it isn't so peaceful. But you do have to think about who's talking. A cop has every reason to complain about BLM; BLM, among other things, wants them to stop the drug war, but there's money and employment behind that for police. They also want them to demilitarize to a certain extent (cops are armed like occupying armies in America), which might make them feel threatened. Conservatives have actually done this before, where they made a Twitter for a black Trump supporter, named something like "African-American Conservative" who would disavow BLM and promote other Trump policies. As it turns out, it was a fake profile, and they literally took the first picture under the google term "black man stock photo" to use as a profile picture. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump paid the guy to do this, he paid people $50 each to attend his announcement.
The media can say what they want, but the fact that Trump is a horrible human being is extremely well-documented. I met someone myself who actually took a job for him in New York (doing plumbing) and never got paid after he finished. He's a billionaire.
There's a reason why protests are usually angry. Angry people protest. You don't see shy people or nice people at protests, you see enraged people. Of course they shouldn't be violent, but think about it. Trump has promised to:
A. Do massive deportations, kicking people out of their homes (I'd be pissed).
B. Discriminate against a religion (I'd be pissed)
C. Continue a systematic system of police oppression (I am pissed)
So if you line up angry people against excited people, who do you think will act unruly and angry? The unruly and angry people.
And the ideas of Black Lives Matter aren't that right-wing anyway. They're common sense. Our cops are armed to the teeth with ridiculous army equipment, they are trained to discriminate, and we have a drug war that, since the late 60s, was purposefully created by Richard Nixon to go after black people and hippies (liberals). "We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be black or liberal, so we made it illegal to smoke marijuana instead." -Nixon aid- And black people are arrested for weed at disproportionately high rates, despite the same consumption rate as whites, so there you go.
To say Black Lives Matter is fascist doesn't make sense. They aren't looking to rule or have a fascist dictator, they just want things fixed. I can sympathize with their anger. And all things considered, America is so conservative that anything left of a Democrat is considered socialist by a massive number of people.
Good for the attendees for not being violent for the most part. But honestly, I would assume the cop was paid to do this instead of believing that what he said was the norm. Wouldn't be the first time.


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Last edited by MWF; August 22nd 2016 at 02:51 AM.
   
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Re: Interesting Perspective - August 22nd 2016, 09:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
I always respected the right to protest, even if it isn't so peaceful. But you do have to think about who's talking. A cop has every reason to complain about BLM; BLM, among other things, wants them to stop the drug war, but there's money and employment behind that for police. They also want them to demilitarize to a certain extent (cops are armed like occupying armies in America), which might make them feel threatened.
America spins too much of it's own economy off the back of wars. I get it. Domestic wars against drugs. Or wars against other countries. Everyone knows this. If I remember right, America's military budget is as much as the rest of the world combined, or slightly less. Like, 2% less.

Now, American police are very heavily armed. I think, more heavily armed than those in any other developed nation which calls itself a democracy. But this also because of America's firearm rights, with most average citizens allowed to own them. American police clearly have a more risky job than in other countries. Demilitarizing is never easy. Who takes the first step? The police? Or the public? The public are unlikely to do it out of their own free will. This is much less about firearms I think, and more about building trust between the public and police. Trust, is not simple either.

You say that police are "trained to discriminate". I haven't gone through police training, but I doubt they teach cops to target specifically minority groups. The reality is however, that underprivileged minority groups tend to commit more crime. So, they get arrested more, suspected more, stopped and searched more. Be it weed, or something else, it's still a crime. This will always lead to some "false alerts", but this doesn't evidence deliberate systematic discrimination. I think individual redneck cases of cops nowadays are generally as isolated as some "Black Panther" supporter calling white people "crackers" on on a high street somewhere.

Of course, that is irrelevant when considering the issue of "trust". Statistics are one thing, but "building trust" is about getting along with people. There's no easy way to do this, without it getting in the way of police's jobs. There's a compromise to be made somewhere. If police are to for example, reduce the number of "stop & searches", despite there being reasonable grounds to carry them out in a certain neighborhood rife with crime... it could actually lead to even more crime.

But the problem/blame doesn't lie entirely with the police. When you have hip-hop icons constantly brainwashing black youths with "fuck the police" kind of stuff, it doesn't help. How could it possibly help? Something like that requires a culture change, and that's very difficult to implement. Nobody is going to propose laws banning hate speech against law enforcement, and rightly so. It'd be a can of worms. The responsibility here lies with celebrity role models.

But celebrities, once they make their millions, are generally more about business/money than whatever else they happen to be doing. They create a "product" which there is a "demand" for among certain public. This "product" might be hate speech against police in their lyrics. So then the responsibility falls on the public itself, and why they crave this sort of stuff. This just goes round and round. Everyone's to blame, and yet everyone is trying to blame anyone except themselves.
______________________________________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Conservatives have actually done this before, where they made a Twitter for a black Trump supporter, named something like "African-American Conservative" who would disavow BLM and promote other Trump policies. As it turns out, it was a fake profile, and they literally took the first picture under the google term "black man stock photo" to use as a profile picture. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump paid the guy to do this, he paid people $50 each to attend his announcement.
That's hilarious. I didn't know about that, but it doesn't surprise me. Trump has done stupid things like that before already. He employs some incompetent people in his ranks. I doubt he does these things personally, but pays people to figure out various "strategies" on how to pad his public image in such ways. Still, do you have some source of this? I searched google and didn't find anything.

As for paying people to attend... I don't think this is a new strategy. And there are many others. Trump isn't pioneering this.
______________________________________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
There's a reason why protests are usually angry. Angry people protest. You don't see shy people or nice people at protests, you see enraged people. Of course they shouldn't be violent, but think about it. Trump has promised to:
A. Do massive deportations, kicking people out of their homes (I'd be pissed).
B. Discriminate against a religion (I'd be pissed)
C. Continue a systematic system of police oppression (I am pissed)
So if you line up angry people against excited people, who do you think will act unruly and angry? The unruly and angry people.
Many things I've seen about Trump, have been pulled out of context. I honestly don't have the time to watch hours of his speeches to see for myself what he talks about in detail, so I'm at a disadvantage here. As far as I know, Trump has advocated deporting undocumented/illegal migrants. This is not the same as "deport all Muslims". Anyway, following point by point:

A. Undocumented/illegal migrants are a surprisingly big problem anywhere they exist. They live "outside" the system, and fail to integrate because of it. They earn absolutely crap wages, if any at all. Live below the poverty line, often resort to crimes to keep up with life, and because they're "undocumented" and "off the grid" (so to speak), it's much harder to control them and hold them accountable for their crimes. All of this costs lots of money to "manage", and gives an excuse to increasing police presence and powers. Those who find jobs work for very little, and easily displace native citizens who need the same jobs. Native citizens with voting rights, and political leverage, who use it to fight back by electing someone they think will help them: Trump.

Even if a country does enable some "integration" of such illegal migrants by issuing them citizenships, it takes years, in some cases even generations (depending how much these people isolate themselves from the general public), for these people to integrate into society and achieve about the same socioeconomic status. Until then, they are a liability. After that point, they start paying back.

B. I assume by "discriminating against a religion", you mean Islam? Does it not make sense however, in light of the terrorist problems, to control the flow of ideas and people associated with this? I understand that not all Muslims support extremism, but many more do than followers of most other ideologies, and this is a big problem.

My point is, not all discrimination is irrational. If there is a social group which is correlated with a disproportionate number of crimes of whatever variety, things need to be done about it. Various things, like imposing stricter controls on migration of such a social group. Other things as well, but we're talking specifically about migration here. I can't support banning all Muslims however. If we were at war with those countries, perhaps this would make sense as a component of some sort of "containment strategy" (I don't know), but this is not the case.

C. I've talked about that enough already at the beginning. Most contemporary stats which I have seen don't show convincing evidence that American police disproportionately shoot black people or arrest them, when taking into consideration crime rates. Maybe there is such evidence, but these things take time to find, and I've not seen it yet. As far as I know, American police shoot everybody. I'm not saying that the following is a reliable source, but it sums up what I think:



Finally, many Trump supporters are also angry.
Anger in an emotion. Many people support Trump as a form of protest in fact. Somehow... they're not running around like hooligans in the streets. I've not seen any videos of that, I have looked. Again, maybe there are some, but I've missed them, and I can't believe in something I haven't seen. Most that I've been able to find is the odd scuffle between 2 people during one of his speaking events... which isn't exactly out of the ordinary.

When people allow anger to dominate/decide their responses reactions to problems, they usually don't solve those problems but make them worse instead. Riots outside of Trump speech events aren't gaining BLM more followers or helping their cause... and it is certainly not going to stop Trump either. He can afford the security he needs.
__________________________________________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
To say Black Lives Matter is fascist doesn't make sense. They aren't looking to rule or have a fascist dictator, they just want things fixed. I can sympathize with their anger.
I didn't actually say they are fascists, but that they are acting like fascists when they intimidate Trump supporters. They are far from fascist as a whole, I know that.

Do you have a reliable source for what BLM demands? There is too much crap out there in the internet and I've gotten lost in it. You sound better acquainted with this, it's why I'm asking you. Some people have been saying that BLM wants police to pull out of "black neighborhoods" altogether. I don't know how true this is or what the context was.
__________________________________________________ _

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
And all things considered, America is so conservative that anything left of a Democrat is considered socialist by a massive number of people.
Good for the attendees for not being violent for the most part. But honestly, I would assume the cop was paid to do this instead of believing that what he said was the norm. Wouldn't be the first time.
"Very conservative", despite Obama getting voted in? Left wingers usually think their country is "very conservative". Right wingers usually think it is "very liberal". It's all relative.
  • Cities tend to be more liberal. Outbacks more conservative.
  • Younger people are more liberal. Older, more conservative.
  • Minority groups are more liberal. Majority, more conservative.
I happen to have lived in cities for most of my life, I'm still relatively young, and I'm sort of on the borderline of being a minority group, having relocated between countries often and having a dual nationality. My niche, has generally been very liberal, and I've passed my judgements on it a few times when it has gone too far. For some time, I also lived in the outskirts of a small town in Poland, which is extremely conservative in contrast. It lends perspective. People over there often annoy me far more tbh, but no one cares about Poland so I won't talk about it much. I don't usually argue with them anymore. With some people, there's a certain threshold of ignorance that is a point of no return, like the event horizon of a black hole. By mingling with such people you just become more stupid as a result. Polish mainstream news is usually reasonable though.

It certainly is possible that the cop was paid to do this video. Theoretically, it's even possible that Trump is paying the rioters to intimidate his own supporters, although I doubt it's the case. Trump certainly is benefiting from it. I couldn't trace the source of the video, which makes it dubious. I posted it anyway, because it's well phrased and easy to follow/understand his arguments, and gives another angle on current events. There are however various youtube personalities which have been around for years (unlike this guy who just shows up out of nowhere suddenly), whom I trust more, and who recount similar experiences.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; August 22nd 2016 at 09:34 PM.
   
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