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Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 1st 2016, 02:33 AM

http://www.learnliberty.org/blog/hal...appropriation/

Article is supposed to be ironic. Great article exposing the hypocrisy of those who cry cultural appropriation.
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 1st 2016, 03:23 AM

The article is a pretty good satire piece, but I think it's missing something. The author actually does acknowledge that some issues regarding appropriation are more offensive and legitimate than others ("for non-Irish person to participate in Halloween at all is equivalent to a white person donning a traditional Native American headdress or wearing blackface" – I assume he doesn't actually agree with this, as it's satirical, and he's implying that some issues are worse than others and valid concerns). Things like wearing blackface aren't ingrained in culture and have a history of being derogatory. I agree that it can go too far sometimes, and I don't know the details of exactly what happened at Yale, but cultural appropriation often really is disrespectful and I think simple requests to avoid certain behaviors shouldn't be that hard to follow. Obviously, this is just my opinion, and it's possibly for requests to get out of hand.



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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 1st 2016, 03:45 AM

Cultural appropriation is a real issue. It does a lot of economic damage to minority cultures. I mean, I can get into it but I will probably be labelled "SJW" or "tumblr snowflake". I'm not ready for the tough crowd who curses every other word, no thanks. So y'all can look it up yourself. Or not.
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 1st 2016, 04:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallingstargirl View Post
The article is a pretty good satire piece, but I think it's missing something. The author actually does acknowledge that some issues regarding appropriation are more offensive and legitimate than others ("for non-Irish person to participate in Halloween at all is equivalent to a white person donning a traditional Native American headdress or wearing blackface" – I assume he doesn't actually agree with this, as it's satirical, and he's implying that some issues are worse than others and valid concerns). Things like wearing blackface aren't ingrained in culture and have a history of being derogatory. I agree that it can go too far sometimes, and I don't know the details of exactly what happened at Yale, but cultural appropriation often really is disrespectful and I think simple requests to avoid certain behaviors shouldn't be that hard to follow. Obviously, this is just my opinion, and it's possibly for requests to get out of hand.
I don't think he's being ironic. It makes complete sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by In-the-way View Post
Cultural appropriation is a real issue. It does a lot of economic damage to minority cultures. I mean, I can get into it but I will probably be labelled "SJW" or "tumblr snowflake". I'm not ready for the tough crowd who curses every other word, no thanks. So y'all can look it up yourself. Or not.
So do you think Halloween is wrong then?

"Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture"

That's all it is. Period. ALL cultures are appropriations of other cultures. It's not about stealing ideas and claiming them as your own or mocking another culture. I'm not disagreeing with you about those being real issues, but that's not the definition of cultural appropriation.

Saying cultural appropriation itself is a problem is like saying a white person can't use a sacred Chinese practice like Tai Chi to prevent him/herself from being killed by a mugger.

To deny people the right to use other elements of other cultures is racist.

Here's a great video worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwQvnyIR9_0
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 1st 2016, 05:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by IH8U2 View Post
I don't think he's being ironic. It makes complete sense.


So do you think Halloween is wrong then?

"Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of a different culture"

That's all it is. Period. ALL cultures are appropriations of other cultures. It's not about stealing ideas and claiming them as your own or mocking another culture. I'm not disagreeing with you about those being real issues, but that's not the definition of cultural appropriation.

Saying cultural appropriation itself is a problem is like saying a white person can't use a sacred Chinese practice like Tai Chi to prevent him/herself from being killed by a mugger.

To deny people the right to use other elements of other cultures is racist.

Here's a great video worth watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwQvnyIR9_0
That definition sounds a lot like "cultural exchange"
That's different than cultural appropriation.
Like I said, there's economic damage at play.
I'm going to use my famous example that I use every single time.
So take quinoa right? Quinoa was a Peruvian grain that was affordable and something a working poor family can afford back in Peru.
When it comes to the USA , what happens? All the hype about it bring a health food. It becomes a rich person's luxurious item.
Now people in Peru lost their cultural dish because they can't even afford it anymore.
That's different than Halloween. In my opinion.
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 1st 2016, 12:53 PM

I was somewhat in agreement at first with issues of cultural appropriation, but as usual, some tossers inflated it's meaning to the point of being meaningless and worthless. Like has to a large degree been done to the word "racism", and actually comparing this to how currencies gain and lose their value is a pretty good analogy... because that's what inflation actually is.

Most people know the story of the "boy who cried wolf".

I've quite determinantly reached the conclusion that once something's value is so inflated, it should be scrapped altogether (like currency), and replaced with something else (a new currency) that provides a platform for a meaningful exchange of goods & services... or in this context, meaningful exchange of ideas & opinions. If definitions are so contorted that no one can agree anymore on what these things mean, then you can't have a productive discussion most of the time.

It's very rare that you can have a reasonable discussion on these things now, unless you're talking with people from a similar ideological perspective, who share similar definitions of these words. Conservatives vs. liberals on these topics generally turns into... well, I don't even know. Calamity. Like colliding matter and antimatter. Quite entertaining sometimes.

People have been saying shit like that you shouldn't wear sombreros, because it's cultural appropriation. And pay attention to who these kinds of accusations are coming from. They mostly do not come from Mexicans themselves.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...cist-sombreros

Give me a break.

Macklemore recently released a very "apologetic" album (I haven't listened to it though) rambling about things like how he's sorry (as a white person) for "stealing rap" from the black community.

-__-

He's not sorry. He's made millions, why would he be sorry? I think he's just trying to hold onto his fanbase by preemptively getting ahead of fanatics who might call him out for this so called "cultural appropriation"... although I think this is also paranoid. Plenty of other white rappers who haven't been pestered by left wing radicals, but then again, today's political climate has become so extremely hostile that I'm not surprised at people like Macklemore getting paranoid and covering their ass. One comment from a student union representative on twitter can lead to several thousand trolls hammering that person, until they get fired from work, or dropped by their label. And they will do things like this, just so they can add it to their "list of accomplishments". Think about it. Certain perverse-minded people get off on the idea of "taking out" someone high-standing like Macklemore. It builds some sort of "reputation". Not a good reputation, but reputation nonetheless.

I'm even guilty of this myself, although for very different reasons, in a very different context nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. That is to say: I understand that mentality pretty damn well, because I experienced it myself and I know I'm not the only one.

I'd like to see these radicals go after Eminem though. That would be theatrical. I don't think it'll happen unfortunately. Too scared, lol.

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Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 1st 2016, 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by In-the-way View Post
Quinoa was a Peruvian grain that was affordable and something a working poor family can afford back in Peru.
When it comes to the USA , what happens? All the hype about it bring a health food. It becomes a rich person's luxurious item.
Now people in Peru lost their cultural dish because they can't even afford it anymore.
That's different than Halloween. In my opinion.
If there are genuine economic consequences, objectively provable negative ramifications, then these things are worth looking at. But let's not also look to pin the blame all on one group of people. The way I see it, it is also the Peruvian government's responsibility to employ a certain degree of protectionism in it's economy, to protect it's goods and services from external/international market forces. If they are instead prepared to roll over to the highest bidder, and sell out their own country this way... who's to blame? I imagine it has a lot to do with corruption (as it often does) in such countries. Officials acting against the interest of their own country, presumably to line their own pockets with gold.

But if the only "genuine" consequence is some "individuals" getting hyper offended, then I'm really not interested. I imagine the real problem is some sort of anxiety disorder instead, and these people should go get therapy instead of expecting their environment to degrade itself to match their disorder.

And actually, I've started reaching the conclusion that sometimes (maybe even most times) it isn't even about "getting offended" anymore, and simply about starting flame wars/controversy, publicity, etc. Because controversy = publicity, and publicity often = money. People with genuine anxiety disorders don't go out of the way to worsen their own condition by exposing themselves to this sort of controversy, unless there are several other things also wrong with them (co-morbidity). I could name a few, but these cases are relatively rare and not very representative. There are arguments suggesting however that untreated anxiety disorders can lead to lowering a person's empathy (http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/arti...educes_empathy), so... anxiety disorders could be correlated with empathy disorders themselves. That's co-morbidity. But I think it would take years for someone with quite serious anxiety problems to turn into a sociopath, so like I said, I'm not sure this is very representative. It's worth thinking about though (I haven't before now).

This relationships between controversy and money has always existed, especially in liberal societies where there is little threat of getting beaten up or executed for "being controversial". It's how Eminem broke out of underground hip-hop into the mainstream. I think a lot of manipulative people are exploiting this mechanism to their advantage. The more outrageous you are, the more followers you get on social media. The more followers, the more adverts, the more money, the more sponsors, the more donations. Sky's the limit lol

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"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 1st 2016, 12:59 PM

Cultural appropriation is a made up issue, and it seems to only be a issue in a multicultural societies, it seems monocultural societies love to share their culture.

That being said, I haven't had chance to read the article yet.
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 2nd 2016, 12:19 AM

I'm confused about what it is?

Would cultural appropriation be when a white author portrays a black character? Or discusses racism? If so then I'm not sure how I feel about it.


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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 2nd 2016, 12:34 PM

btw, I probably shouldn't have referred to "anxiety disorders" as "insanity" like I did. I know better than that. I was typing faster than I was thinking.

I've corrected that now.

I didn't mean to be demeaning towards anyone with real issues. Most of us go through it to a greater or lesser degree at some point.

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"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 3rd 2016, 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Abibliophobe~ View Post
I'm confused about what it is?

Would cultural appropriation be when a white author portrays a black character? Or discusses racism? If so then I'm not sure how I feel about it.
White authors writing characters who aren't white isn't cultural appropriation. Appropriation is taking something that is important to a specific culture or invented by a culture/racial group and claiming that you made it.

Things like watching films from other cultures or cooking their food or learning their dance styles are all awesome and not appropriation, because you're acknowledging that you're learning about an aspect of another culture. The problem is things like white people wearing Native American headdresses on Halloween, because that's an important religious tradition that's being worn as a costume.



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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 3rd 2016, 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallingstargirl View Post


White authors writing characters who aren't white isn't cultural appropriation. Appropriation is taking something that is important to a specific culture or invented by a culture/racial group and claiming that you made it.

Things like watching films from other cultures or cooking their food or learning their dance styles are all awesome and not appropriation, because you're acknowledging that you're learning about an aspect of another culture. The problem is things like white people wearing Native American headdresses on Halloween, because that's an important religious tradition that's being worn as a costume.
Thanks for clarifying. I thought I knew what it was but wanted to be certain before commenting.

Personally, I think cultural appropriation is wrong. I think that it leads to misunderstanding of different cultures. We learned about the importance of headdresses in a class I took and when people wear them as costumes and stuff they are taking something that is important and making it a joke. Basically they are mocking the culture and I don't agree with that.


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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 3rd 2016, 11:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Abibliophobe~ View Post

Personally, I think cultural appropriation is wrong. I think that it leads to misunderstanding of different cultures. We learned about the importance of headdresses in a class I took and when people wear them as costumes and stuff they are taking something that is important and making it a joke. Basically they are mocking the culture and I don't agree with that.
I agree with you. I saw this t-shirt that said "if you're going to dress like one of us this Halloween, come join the struggle with standing rock"

Definitely paraphrased and I don't think it was literal but at least be aware that Native Americans are suffering right now and dressing up as them (or any culture) is abstracting their humanity into a costume like it is something we all can try on and take off at our pleasure meanwhile they're always going to be Native Americans and have to deal with the good and bad. Wearing cultures like a costume creates a serious disconnect and reduces what is already considered as an "other" into a stereotype and even more of an other.

It is like in the Giver when they got rid of all animals but they give the kids a stuffed animal and that's all they know about animals. It is a mythologized version.
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 4th 2016, 01:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallingstargirl View Post


White authors writing characters who aren't white isn't cultural appropriation. Appropriation is taking something that is important to a specific culture or invented by a culture/racial group and claiming that you made it.

Things like watching films from other cultures or cooking their food or learning their dance styles are all awesome and not appropriation, because you're acknowledging that you're learning about an aspect of another culture. The problem is things like white people wearing Native American headdresses on Halloween, because that's an important religious tradition that's being worn as a costume.
No, that's not what cultural appropriation generally means.

"Cultural appropriation is the adoption or use of elements of one culture by members of another culture."

There is no mention of stealing and taking credit for monetary gain or mocking of another culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Abibliophobe~ View Post
Thanks for clarifying. I thought I knew what it was but wanted to be certain before commenting.

Personally, I think cultural appropriation is wrong. I think that it leads to misunderstanding of different cultures. We learned about the importance of headdresses in a class I took and when people wear them as costumes and stuff they are taking something that is important and making it a joke. Basically they are mocking the culture and I don't agree with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by In-the-way View Post
I agree with you. I saw this t-shirt that said "if you're going to dress like one of us this Halloween, come join the struggle with standing rock"

Definitely paraphrased and I don't think it was literal but at least be aware that Native Americans are suffering right now and dressing up as them (or any culture) is abstracting their humanity into a costume like it is something we all can try on and take off at our pleasure meanwhile they're always going to be Native Americans and have to deal with the good and bad. Wearing cultures like a costume creates a serious disconnect and reduces what is already considered as an "other" into a stereotype and even more of an other.

It is like in the Giver when they got rid of all animals but they give the kids a stuffed animal and that's all they know about animals. It is a mythologized version.
So do you think Halloween is wrong? Because going by your definition, you're abstracting the humanity and holiday stolen from a group who has been brutalized:

"Samhain is a rich holiday with a noble and storied tradition. Itís a holiday that belongs to a formerly (and to some degree, currently) oppressed ethnic group. Yet most people in the US and Canada, and many in Europe, Mexico, South America, and elsewhere, feel free to appropriate this sacred festival for their own purposes. They mock it by wearing inauthentic costumes, drinking too much (itself a racist mockery of the drunken Irish stereotype), and exchanging inauthentic store-bought candies instead of the traditional treat. Again, for non-Irish person to participate in Halloween at all is equivalent to a white person donning a traditional Native American headdress or wearing blackface. The American Halloween tradition, which encourages everyone to mock and insult the sacred Irish festival of Samhain, is at least as insulting as Chief Wahoo, the ďRedskinsĒ name, or the Blackhawksí logo."

If you haven't watched this video already, I recommend it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwQvnyIR9_0

"Just because someone wore a piece of clothing from a certain culture to a music festival or a Halloween party doesn't make that individual a racist. It doesn't mean they're trying to erase that culture and it doesn't make the item they wore any less significant. You can wear a war bonnet to a music festival or put a Burger King crown on your head, but when a Native American chief wears his war bonnet and a king wears his crown, we understand a respect the difference."
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 4th 2016, 02:22 AM

I need to number things because I have a lot to say
1) that definition is cultural exchange. Can you provide where you got your definition from? There's a line between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange and they can blur in some instances but there IS a difference
2) I kind of agree and kind of don't.
I don't think people who culturally appropriate are inherently racist. They may engage in problematic behavior but I don't call them racist.
Secondly, it is more of a problem to me when businesses culturally appropriate and coupled with gentrification and neoliberalism, it is a disaster. It is part of a larger economic phenomenon. What individuals do is like a micro-aggression. It is harmful and annoying and can bother or offend in social situations. And what sucks is that often times, people outside of said culture won't even get what's the problem and point fingers at the people within that culture who is targeted and calling them overly sensitive.
Now, holidays are a bit different. There's a mainstream set of holidays in Western society. It is not like someone is taking a head dress out of contact and wearing it for fun when really it has significant cultural meaning. Like theres a museum here that has a Tibetan prayer wheel but the object has been stripped away of its purpose and cultural context.
There are ways to study, engage and participate in culture that I think are positive. Maybe people really do celebrate Halloween in a shallow way. My father was telling me how he celebrated Halloween in his home country and it is different than here in the U.S.
I do think it would be important and an interesting topic to say the least, to learn about the traditions of Halloween that were practiced by the original Irish ethnic group.
I think the important thing here is to be mindful and sensitive.
Drinking too much though has more to do with being irresponsible than mocking Irish though???
And I'm sure Saint Patrick's day here is not celebrated in a culturally sensitive way by many.
Yes, I think Halloween can use a cultural context.
I recently learned where the "knocking on wood" to ward away jinxes come from. And I confess that I knock on wood a lot on a daily basis. And I go to Chinatown and eat Chinese food. Am I racist for that? I don't think so. I don't think people who participate in Halloween are racist either. It would be nice if they understood Halloween in a deeper way rather than just gulping pounds of candy.
And it would be nice if people chose costumes that are both fun and respectful.
And if someone dressed up as an Irish person on Halloween then yes, that's a problem too.
And if someone dressed up as a witch, it would be nice if they did research on what a witch means in Irish culture/folklore. However, it is different than dressing up AS AN IRISH person

Now if you will excuse me, I will watch the video.

Edit: I refuse to continue this video because again, they are talking about cultural appreciation/exchange and that is not appropriation and I am a sociology major so yeah.
I am talking about the negative phenomenon.
I have a cousin who isn't Jewish and dressed up as a rabbi one time for Halloween. He was making fun of them. He in particular 100% was making fun. So yes such people exist. Not saying he is racist. I'm saying it is micro-aggressive

My other cousin was invited to an Indian wedding and wore Indian outfit (Indian as in from India not Native Americans) and that's completely different. She was respectful and she is half white. Whereas my cousin dressing up as a rabbi is 100% of a minority ethnic background. White people can be understanding so this isn't really a race issue. It is a cultural and economic and social issue.

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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 4th 2016, 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallingstargirl View Post
Appropriation is taking something that is important to a specific culture or invented by a culture/racial group and claiming that you made it.
Not all of this post is directed at you... so don't take it too strongly.

Even if we assume that to be the definition... who exactly is actually doing this??? Simply wearing a Sombrero, or some Native American outfit doesn't imply that someone is claiming that "they made it".

I have never come across something like that. Maybe I didn't look hard enough. But really, these are very subjective topics, so if anyone looks "hard enough" they probably will find something.
_____________________________________________

I remember seeing somewhere that 90% of these Native Americans don't even give a damn about things like the Redskins using their symbolism, or whatever the row was about (something again to do with cultural appropriation). So why are these people's opinions being hijacked and reshaped, for political purposes??? (EDIT: here's a link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...f9a_story.html)

I go onto Buzzfeed (v. liberal channel), and they very deliberately pick the "right people" for the videos to fit their narrative. Example (digressive slightly from the main topic, but I'm going somewhere with this), women vs. men in FBI tests:

Everyday Women Take the FBI Fitness Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CApYNrfsSE

Everyday Men Take the FBI Fitness Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtSs1Bob3aU

I like how they say "everyday" women. Those were mostly very athletic women, whereas the men they picked were quite the opposite. I know this pretty much for a fact to be completely non-representative (it's really quite simple). I thought I was reading into these things too much at first, but I've seen far too many examples of these kinds of media channels manipulating perceptions this way. When you consider how contemporary liberalism is connected with feminism... and the whole disfigured form which feminism itself has taken, this actually fits together. It fits that they'd create two videos, which when compared to one another, imply that women are actually "physically superior", by calling both sample groups "everyday people".

So, back on topic, Buzzfeed also has this video:

Mexican People Try "Mexican" Costumes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC02aBAVj08

Bearing in mind what I said about Buzzfeed's FBI fitness test a moment ago, why would any rational person trust what they say? Again, they just probably picked "everyday" Mexicans who just happened to align perfectly with their general political narrative.

Sorry, but that's called propaganda. It's not necessarily lies, but it is about publishing/showing non-representative data/evidence (usually anecdotal because it's more easily manipulated) to imply something that usually isn't actually true. It's about shaping opinions/perceptions... and if you do it enough, it might actually start becoming true. Fake it 'till you make it. Propaganda was a very large part of how Russia won the war, especially regarding the siege of Leningrad. So, it can be used for good things.

But simply "sowing discord" by making big issues out of things which are non-issues even to the people which you think you're representing... isn't any good at all. This actually worsens racial tensions. By pretending like there is a problem to begin with, you actually create a problem. I've known enough people from various social groups on an honest basis, to know from personal experience that they usually don't care. Not unless it is something consistently and deliberately offensive, like mocking someone's accent. But that would piss anyone off, that's normal.

And finally, I. I am half Polish half British, and relocate often between both countries. I don't even find it offensive when some of my peer group stereotype either nationality. I usually find it quite funny. It's different if it is meant to be demeaning, but if it isn't... what's the big problem? I get a bit annoyed if they get it completely wrong, and do something cretinous like confuse Poland with Russia, or confuse Britain with America... but even then, not really "offensive". Some girl once asked me if Poland is a town in Russia. I wasn't offended. I was in fucking tears laughing at her lol. I'm quite sure she was joking as well.

But do I get offended at people exaggerating certain cultural tendencies? Not at all. So long as it's actually based on some truth. I don't like bullshit that is completely made up, that is only meant to be provocative and nothing else.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; November 4th 2016 at 02:44 PM.
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 4th 2016, 03:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by In-the-way View Post
I need to number things because I have a lot to say
1) that definition is cultural exchange. Can you provide where you got your definition from? There's a line between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange and they can blur in some instances but there IS a difference
It's the first thing that comes when you type it in Google.

Quote:
2) I kind of agree and kind of don't.
I don't think people who culturally appropriate are inherently racist. They may engage in problematic behavior but I don't call them racist.
Secondly, it is more of a problem to me when businesses culturally appropriate and coupled with gentrification and neoliberalism, it is a disaster. It is part of a larger economic phenomenon.
That's exactly what's happening with Halloween.

Quote:
What individuals do is like a micro-aggression. It is harmful and annoying and can bother or offend in social situations. And what sucks is that often times, people outside of said culture won't even get what's the problem and point fingers at the people within that culture who is targeted and calling them overly sensitive.
Because no race has a monopoly on clothing or practice. It doesn't mean people forget where it came from.

Quote:
Now, holidays are a bit different. There's a mainstream set of holidays in Western society. It is not like someone is taking a head dress out of contact and wearing it for fun when really it has significant cultural meaning. Like theres a museum here that has a Tibetan prayer wheel but the object has been stripped away of its purpose and cultural context.
No, it's exactly the same thing. Halloween has significant cultural meaning.

Quote:
There are ways to study, engage and participate in culture that I think are positive. Maybe people really do celebrate Halloween in a shallow way. My father was telling me how he celebrated Halloween in his home country and it is different than here in the U.S.
I do think it would be important and an interesting topic to say the least, to learn about the traditions of Halloween that were practiced by the original Irish ethnic group.
I think the important thing here is to be mindful and sensitive.
Thing is, Irish people in general don't care.

Quote:
Drinking too much though has more to do with being irresponsible than mocking Irish though???
Most people who complain about cultural appropriation don't care about the intent.

Quote:
And I'm sure Saint Patrick's day here is not celebrated in a culturally sensitive way by many.
Yes, I think Halloween can use a cultural context.
I recently learned where the "knocking on wood" to ward away jinxes come from. And I confess that I knock on wood a lot on a daily basis. And I go to Chinatown and eat Chinese food. Am I racist for that? I don't think so. I don't think people who participate in Halloween are racist either. It would be nice if they understood Halloween in a deeper way rather than just gulping pounds of candy.
The reality is most people don't care if you or other people do those things. BDF makes a perfect point.

Quote:
And it would be nice if people chose costumes that are both fun and respectful.
And if someone dressed up as an Irish person on Halloween then yes, that's a problem too.
And if someone dressed up as a witch, it would be nice if they did research on what a witch means in Irish culture/folklore. However, it is different than dressing up AS AN IRISH person
It would be nice, but Irish people in general don't care.

Quote:
Edit: I refuse to continue this video because again, they are talking about cultural appreciation/exchange and that is not appropriation and I am a sociology major so yeah.
There is a liberal bias in academia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_bias_in_academia

Quote:
I am talking about the negative phenomenon.
I have a cousin who isn't Jewish and dressed up as a rabbi one time for Halloween. He was making fun of them. He in particular 100% was making fun. So yes such people exist. Not saying he is racist. I'm saying it is micro-aggressive
No one said they don't exist. Yes, it is a problem.

Quote:
My other cousin was invited to an Indian wedding and wore Indian outfit (Indian as in from India not Native Americans) and that's completely different. She was respectful and she is half white. Whereas my cousin dressing up as a rabbi is 100% of a minority ethnic background. White people can be understanding so this isn't really a race issue. It is a cultural and economic and social issue.

*exits stage left*
There are non-Jewish people in this video dressing up as rabbis in this video and the Jewish guy obviously doesn't care:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ-v3FuYjX4
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 4th 2016, 04:09 PM

This is going back and forth too much. Don't like academia? Well don't bring up an arcademic word then.

Halloween is a holiday so people celebrating said holiday is different than someone wearing a he address that is used in weddings and wearing them during Halloween.
I didn't say Halloween isn't significant or doesn't have cultural meaning. I am simply saying, that the holiday is practices by a large number of people in a variety of different ways. Different people do different things.
Whereas using specific objects out of context is different than celebrating Halloween because Halloween is still in a context.


Also if one person doesn't care that doesn't make it okay.

Intent SO matters
Although, outcomes matter too and if you see an outcome getting out of hand, you should evaluate your intention rather than be arrogant and preach good intentions.
Only members of a particular culture will know what it is like to be them. We can tty to understand as outsiders and relate but it is still their experience. And it varies within a culture too. I'm glad one Irish person didn't find it offensive, good for that person. Maybe some Irish people do though.
And maybe some Jews will get bothered. I'm Jewish and I was bothered by my cousin's mockery. Nothing anyone will say will make me believe it was an appreciation.
At the same time, I had a professor who is White and he taught music of the muddle east. He did a fantastic job of being culturally sensitive. I prefer him over this other professor who is Turkish.
It is really about how you handle it.
If someone is racist 364 days of the year and 1 day on Halloween, decides to dress up as a Jamaican rastafari because that's cool, we have a problem Sherlock. Even if you're apathetic 364 days of the year, there's a problem.
Unless you're truly involved and care, then don't bother. And guess what? I've never met anyone who appreciated a culture, dressing up as said culture for Halloween. NEVER

They may wear jewelry handmade from a certain culture or have certain things that show appreciation but it usually isn't on Halloween dressing up as a stereotypical member of that culture.
The people who appreciate Native American culture at this moment are wearing T-shirts that say
Water is Life #NoDAPL

Because they don't just care about the fun stuff like the food, and clothing snd benefiting off of products while being removed from it's entirety. They care about the human beings who are st this moment struggling for their survival.
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 5th 2016, 02:53 AM

Hate to sound like an ass, but we have a complete psychopath who is in a statistical dead heat to become the president of the most powerful country in the world... Next Tuesday. This happened because voters have been divided up with ridiculous issues like "political correctness". Meanwhile, our government is being sold to the highest bidder and tons of people think the problem with our country is that people are too sensitive? Give me a break. If people actually voted based on their wallets, they would be doing well enough that they probably wouldn't even be bothered by these issues.


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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 5th 2016, 03:31 AM

Quote:
[Q]Hate to sound like an ass, but we have a complete psychopath who is in a statistical dead heat to become the president of the most powerful country in the world... Next Tuesday.
Yep. It's horrible. Although, not everyone is even on the same page with THAT. You'd think it is so obvious and that we'd come together as a nation to not let it happen.

Quote:
This happened because voters have been divided up with ridiculous issues like "political correctness".
Is that really how it happened? I don't think so...
Quote:
Meanwhile, our government is being sold to the highest bidder and tons of people think the problem with our country is that people are too sensitive? Give me a break.
Kind of confused here. I don't think people being sensitive is the problem. But our country do have our scapegoats. Black Lives Matter is met with "All Lives Matter" and I think that not only invalidates a real struggle but dismisses the Black people as too sensitive and whiney
Quote:
[]If people actually voted based on their wallets, they would be doing well enough that they probably wouldn't even be bothered by these issues.
[/]

We don't know that for sure but that's possible
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 5th 2016, 04:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Hate to sound like an ass, but we have a complete psychopath who is in a statistical dead heat to become the president of the most powerful country in the world... Next Tuesday. This happened because voters have been divided up with ridiculous issues like "political correctness". Meanwhile, our government is being sold to the highest bidder and tons of people think the problem with our country is that people are too sensitive? Give me a break. If people actually voted based on their wallets, they would be doing well enough that they probably wouldn't even be bothered by these issues.
God forbid we attempt to stop SJW's who may have the traction to change legislation over things THEY deem too offensive. God forbid we call out these BLM fucks who attack white people and wish to exterminate all cops. God forbid we call out these sensitive fucks who are relentless in their pursuit to get innocent people fired because of a harmless belief they have. And how would that impact our livelihood in the future?

In Canada, they're trying to pass bill C-16 where we can't fucking use genderless pronouns or pronouns they deem are inaccurate:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blo...ouns-and-has-a

And who's fault is that? The politically correct! That is pure totalitarian like Trump, the guy you're against.

And just because the far right idiots hold anti-SJW beliefs negates the legitimacy of these issues? The anti-SJW rhetoric influencing the people to vote for Trump is the wrong way to go about it, but it doesn't mean the rhetoric itself isn't legitimate.
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 5th 2016, 06:02 AM

I have a feeling I'm gonna tank my own argument somewhere in here. I was too general before.
I'm not gonna worry about Halloween or cultural appropriation. If a problem occurs, I feel its up to the person who caused the offense, whether its justified or not, to just say, "sorry, I didn't mean it." Even if it seems like bullshit. Going either way, I might have an opinion about it, but I'm not gonna let that control my life or my votes.
It probably isn't relevant for this thread, but I tend to condescend whenever political correctness is even mentioned because usually people don't know what they're talking about. Political correctness is a broad term. As for Black Lives Matter, the cops who are killing ANYONE, in my mind, should be marked criminals UNLESS it is impossible to avoid. That isn't a matter of political correctness, that's a matter of public safety and crappy police training. The fact that police have shown in studies to have an overdeveloped trigger finger towards black people is another public safety concern. They also shouldnt be armed to the teeth and told that their lives matter more than other peoples' (I've seen training videos that basically say, "they are out to kill you, eat or be eaten"), which therefore gives them the right to shoot. If people argue that cops being told to not murder people is a matter of "political correctness", then they're horribly uneducated.
And you're totally wrong about BLM. BLM does not exist to harm white people, or cops. I say that as a white man. It seeks nonviolent interactions from police, but it just so happens that a very small number of people that align themselves with them are indeed crazy. That'll happen with any group (BLM, Christianity, Islam, Communism, etc.) if its a heated subject. They can't control people they would otherwise disassociate with, like the Dallas shooter (who, by the way, denounced BLM himself while also being denounced by BLM- yet people assume they're linked). And BLM doesn't just exist to help black people, they actually serve all people; its the weird paradox of, "BLM actually helps EVERYONE, while All Lives Matter helps no one." BLM's purpose isn't just to change the system for the sake of black people, its for all people, like by hoping to close down private prisons so that the rich people running the prisons can't bid on legal slaves who were arrested for weed. This is one way where it gets back to money, and the current system of money in politics is screwing up society. The rich feed off the conflict and divisiveness they encourage because the real sources of the problems get ignored. In fact, every problem in society has a link to money, unless I'm very much mistaken. I'm sure that Hill article probably does somewhere, too.
My point is, I have a totem pole of priorities that has the average Trump voter's views of what political correctness is at the very bottom. What they want is the ability to treat people like shit in the name of "freedom". Like what, do you think it's okay to throw around the word "nigger"? Probably not, you'd have to be a complete troglodyte to think that. But I've come across Trump supporters who think it is, saying I'm too politically correct, before flipping out over the complete joke of a word, "cracker". I've also come across a Trump supporter who recommended nuking the Middle East, which I rightfully called bullshit, and his response was, "Oh are you too politically correct to bomb Muslims?" No, I'm just not a psychopath. And I would prefer we killed the correct people instead of a place full of 98-99% innocent people.
I should have been more clear. I didn't think about political correctness in the realm of public safety, because that can be very important, but I thought of it in the, "wow, this is silly, this is easily avoidable, yet people still freak out about it" context. Like the Halloween thing.
As for that Hill article, as mind-numbingly stupid a law as that is (from what I understand), the problem could be avoided for anyone accused to say, "my bad, didn't mean it". It would get annoying, but the alternative is probably legalized discrimination, like that fucking asshole Mike Pence allowed in Indiana. I don't know where the middle ground is there.


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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 5th 2016, 06:47 AM

That stuff you said about BLM is off topic, so I will create another thread about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
My point is, I have a totem pole of priorities that has the average Trump voter's views of what political correctness is at the very bottom.

What they want is the ability to treat people like shit in the name of "freedom". Like what, do you think it's okay to throw around the word "nigger"? Probably not, you'd have to be a complete troglodyte to think that. But I've come across Trump supporters who think it is, saying I'm too politically correct, before flipping out over the complete joke of a word, "cracker". I've also come across a Trump supporter who recommended nuking the Middle East, which I rightfully called bullshit, and his response was, "Oh are you too politically correct to bomb Muslims?" No, I'm just not a psychopath. And I would prefer we killed the correct people instead of a place full of 98-99% innocent people.
This thread is about the general nature of political correctness in the sense of framing non-bigoted shit as offensive. Those things you described are just blatantly racist.

Quote:
I should have been more clear. I didn't think about political correctness in the realm of public safety, because that can be very important, but I thought of it in the, "wow, this is silly, this is easily avoidable, yet people still freak out about it" context. Like the Halloween thing.
Once it gets on the legislative level, it becomes more than just petty shit and has everything to do with public safety. That's why it's important we challenge these illiberal beliefs now.

Quote:
As for that Hill article, as mind-numbingly stupid a law as that is (from what I understand), the problem could be avoided for anyone accused to say, "my bad, didn't mean it".
And they could lie and say you didn't apologize. I don't want to live in a world where that can be bought to court in the first place. That would be a waste of time. It is also illegal in Canada to talk vulgarly about religion.

Quote:
It would get annoying, but the alternative is probably legalized discrimination, like that fucking asshole Mike Pence allowed in Indiana. I don't know where the middle ground is there.
The point is to challenge discrimination, not censor it.
   
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Re: Halloween is for Irish people only; for anyone else, itís racist cultural appropriation - November 5th 2016, 11:53 AM

Too many walls of text for me to address it all. I just want to pull out the issue with "people being too sensitive".

You are downplaying this problem. This isn't just about "people being too sensitive". It is about one ideology trying to bully and silence the other, using victim points and bully tactics. It's a widespread problem, that has undermined rational debate on colleges (until this guy Milo Yiannopoulos came along and fought fire with fire). It has undermined free speech itself, and and this is not at all insignificant. It is in direct conflict with Western democratic values.

As was shown in the original post, there has been immense pressure on employers to fire their employees even for things like saying that "there are 2 genders". These are not isolated cases.

If you don't see the problem with that and the larger problem, then you're blind. Blinded by ideology most likely, too concerned with your own values, to see other people's perspective on this problem. You must realise that if this wasn't a problem, then the alt-right wouldn't have gained the popularity it has, and neither would have Trump, and many other people.

This is about totalitarianism: one ideology, trying to sub-serve the other and annihilate it, simply because some nutcases think that the word "conservative" is synonymous with evil, or inherently "immoral" or something else along those lines.

That is pretty much what radicalism is, regardless of what damn ideology manifests it.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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