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"The War on Islam" - December 29th 2016, 08:22 AM

When will this war stop? How many innocent lives will be lost in our effort to help? Growing up, my brother Bobby and I would fight all the time. Whenever we would go tell on each other, separately, of course, my parents would stop us and asked what we did. There are always two sides to the story they said. If that is true between simple sibling rivalry, why wouldn't it be true for a much more complex dispute? Between policies, differences in religion and beliefs and the media constantly broadcasting ONE side of the story, there is a lot lost in translation. We look at this war and we see it as us helping. I imagine them looking at this war and seeing us damaging their economic and government structure. Yes, they have their and extremists, but don't we? Look at any "Christian" cult and you will find people doing horrible things in the name of religion. We have the same issues, the media just does not focus on it. Why broadcast a story about an extremist saying he's god, when we can make a while whole country, religion even, look like terrorists. So I ask again, when will we stop? How long will we make the other side look like killers, by killing them?

If an admin finds a better sub-forum to move this to, go ahead and move it. Also if anyone finds this triggering, please let me know, whether in a comment or a PM, so I can add the prefix. If you would like to debate this is the comments, I welcome it, but keep it civil and remember everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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Re: "The War on Islam" - December 29th 2016, 03:34 PM

I have gone ahead and moved this to Current Events and Debates as I think you'll get more responses here.


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Re: "The War on Islam" - December 29th 2016, 10:26 PM

Thanks!!!!


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Re: "The War on Islam" - December 30th 2016, 06:04 AM

I have a lot to say on this topic, but my first thoughts are about the way the media frames Islam. Until 9-11, hardly anybody even knew what Islam was. After 9-11, they're like, "What are the Islams?" Now these idiots go on the news and say, "radical Islam is the greatest threat to western society." No it ISN'T, you freaking idiots, our reactionary policies are. We create the wars, we destroy their countries and economies, and we sow the seeds of resentment in the middle east whenever we feel the need for a regime change. And then we wonder why these countries hate us. Why should I be afraid of terrorists? More Americans have been killed in my city of 100,000 alone than they have by ISIS this past year. I'm more likely to get crushed and killed by furniture than killed by a terrorist. But the government and the media wants us to unite against a common enemy so we can ignore real issues that they screw us on, like taxes.
Thing is, this fundamentalist movement of Islam is fairly new, like the last 100 years or so, where many people in the middle east started latching onto the teachings and beliefs of dead people who were regarded as crazy in their own time period. For example, Islam doesn't require a hijab or burka, that's just an über-patriarchic society with its head too far up its own ass to see logic. The Quran (as I've been told) just says to dress modestly. But its stuff like that that gained legitimacy around the 1950s in the Middle East when these fundamentalist beliefs started to take hold. The west started to screw with them, mainly for oil, so the societies basically said "screw the west" and decided to take their values in the total opposite direction that the west was going. That's what I'm putting together, at least.
The middle east used to look a lot different than it does now. There was a mediterranean climate there (before years of over-irrigation/water loss), Baghdad was considered a great and beautiful city, and middle-eastern/Islamic society in general was in many ways more advanced than western society. During the dark ages, they had every reason to look at Christian nations as barbaric. We'd fight wars between Catholics and Protestants (kinda like Sunni and Shia) in Europe while they're over there in the middle east inventing algebra and treating people of other religions with considerably more hospitality. Nowadays, we've flip-flopped.
What's my point? Not really sure, just a long-winded explanation that Islam isn't what it seems to be.
Side-note: the middle east has large demographics of young, single, unemployed men. This demographic tends to be problematic in most societies because they'll do whatever it takes to fix their problems, including joining something like ISIS.


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Re: "The War on Islam" - January 6th 2017, 01:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
For example, Islam doesn't require a hijab or burka, that's just an über-patriarchic society with its head too far up its own ass to see logic. The Quran (as I've been told) just says to dress modestly.
Quran (33:59) - "Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them..."

Quran (24:31) - "And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known." The woman is not only supposed to cover herself, except with relatives, but to look down, so as to avoid making eye-contact with men.

Quran (33:55) - "It shall be no crime in them as to their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their woman, or the slaves which their right hands possess, if they speak to them unveiled" A woman may present herself without a veil only to family and slaves.
Quote:
treating people of other religions with considerably more hospitality
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah"
   
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Re: "The War on Islam" - January 6th 2017, 10:43 PM

Huh. Well... shit.
I'll try to do some research and counter that when I have more time to research and write.


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Re: "The War on Islam" - January 7th 2017, 09:52 PM

Add to that, an independent Italian group that observes and monitors world religions(CESNUR) has announced that Christianity, not Islam, was the most persecuted religion in the world in 2016. Over 90,000 Christians were slain for their religion, and over 600,000 has endured some form of persecution. That is significantly more than any other religion, and nearly 1/2 of persecution stems from Muslim countries. This mirrors their 2015 report, which also shown Christianity as the most oppressed. There isn't a war on Islam, there is a war on Christianity.
   
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Re: "The War on Islam" - January 8th 2017, 06:05 AM

Well, Pandora's Box is now open, I guess...
First off, I'm not sure if I have a valid argument regarding hijabs. I had a religion teacher tell me that and I just went with it. However, he read the original arabic version of the Qur'an, so it might be different. I have no way to know.
Now, it's time to bust out the Qur'an that's been collecting dust in the bottom of my desk.
First off, the "kill them where you find them" verse contradicts the point you were trying to make (that the Qur'an is telling them to murder, I presume). In the context of what happened to Mohammed, he and his followers were forced out of their homes by polytheists, so when they came to take their homes back, it was basically an eye for an eye. Not necessarily the best thing ever, but compared to the Bible where God gave the Jews somebody else's land after telling them to kill everyone there (Jericho- utterly destroying everyone and everything, man and woman, young and old), that at least makes sense. I'll quote verbatim what my Qur'an says, starting a verse earlier; leaving out that verse is kind of important.
2:190-193 (plus a definition) "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight against you but do not transgress. Indeed, Allah does not like transgressors.
And kill them [in battle] wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah* is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al-Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of disbelievers.
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and[until] religion [i.e. worship] is [acknowledged to be] for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression [i.e. assault] except against the oppressors.
*among the meanings of fitnah are disbelief and its imposition on others, discord, dissension, civil strife, persecution, oppression, injustice, seduction, terrorism, trial and torment."
Anyway that's my English translation that I ordered online. But the issue here is that it isn't in it's original Arabic. It doesn't translate very well, so if you would, put a link down to where you got your verses. Mine are directly from an English translation of the Qur'an (English meanings revised and edited by Saheeh International).
Don't transgress basically means, "no overkill". The verse also says that at the other location, don't fight them until they fight you. Your Qur'an either left that out or you did. And mine says to fight the oppressors, which sounds a lot better than killing innocent-sounding polytheists. As for Fitnah, I'll get back to that.
The verses immediately before give extra context to the ones you stated. 8:38: "Say to those who disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred (when Mohammed and co. were kicked out of their homes- my words) will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility]- then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place." Ok, so that establishes a reason to fight them. They jacked your shit and if they don't make peace, kill them. Not the best thing I've ever heard, but without that, the next verse makes them sound like murderous conquerers. 8:39: "And fight against them until there is no fitnah* and until religion [i.e. worship] is for Allah. And if they cease- then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do."
*Persecution. See footnote to 2:191.
Ok, so there, fitnah is clarified for both passages. If it means persecution, then God is telling them to end persecution on the terms that neither side is being persecuted. And actually, it looks like this is really the Qur'an arguing for equality on the basis that the Muslims are not being persecuted. If they are being persecuted, then God basically says to kill the oppressors because the Muslims are his favored group.
8:12: "[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, 'I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip*.
*By which they grasp and manipulate their weapons."
This one didn't change a whole lot, but it's important to keep in mind that disbeliever, at least based on these verses so far, might as well just mean oppressor or enemy. Now I'm not really sure why it says strike them upon the necks AND cut off their fingers, although it says to cut the fingers off so they can't use their weapons. Strike upon the necks doesn't necessarily sound like a beheading because striking a finger FROM them specifically means cut their fingers off. This is another passage where I want to know your source because this could actually be the difference between relative mercy and barbarism. I looked at 7 different translations and only one said distinctly to "strike off their heads". The other ones all said smite or strike (both mean hit) above the the neck or smite the head. That doesn't mean to kill them.
Ok so what did we learn here? That the atrocities, at least in those verses, can be justified. An eye for an eye isn't exactly my favorite justice system, but it's significantly more reasonable than, "You're my chosen people, so kill those people and take their land" (regarding Israel). I mean, the Bible has violence and genocide everywhere in it, ordered by God. I wouldn't necessarily be surprised to find the same if I read the entire Qur'an, but still, if you're going to bring up Christianity at all, so will I. Speaking of which, do you know what Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have in common? They have the same God. "Allah" is Arabic for God. In the Middle East, followers of each religion say Allah and they all know they worship the same God. However, Christianity has a fundamentally different understanding of God because of the Trinity. Our God isn't a different God from Islam's, no more than it is different than the God of Judaism. That's because Arabs are supposedly descended from Ishmael instead of Isaac, and they held onto the same God as the descendants of Isaac. And if you say we worship a different God than the Jews, then I'd say you're totally wrong.
As for the study of religious persecution, put a link to the study. I want to know what their criteria is for religious persecution. For example, if ISIS Muslim vs. Shia (or moderate in general) Muslim wasn't counted, then the study is already debunked. ISIS is persecuting EVERYONE who won't accept their view of Islam. It isn't like they are just going after Christians, they're going after dissenters, including moderate Muslims and Shi'ites. Not to mention, these extremist groups spring up because WE, the US, destroyed their countries and left a vacuum for terrorists to fabricate brutal ideologies to control the masses. It kinda proves what I was saying. It's not like you see ISIS on a wide scale in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, or the UAE, middle-eastern countries that are considerably better established than Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, or Syria, where we decided for the betterment of nobody that we should intervene.
Goddammit, I've spent way too much time on this.


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Re: "The War on Islam" - January 8th 2017, 10:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
It doesn't translate very well, so if you would, put a link down to where you got your verses. Mine are directly from an English translation of the Qur'an (English meanings revised and edited by Saheeh International).
I have a physical version done by an independent Arabic group translated directly from the original Arabic. So a link is kinda impossible.

As for your quoted verses, nice research but is irrelevant. You added a ton of extra information that isn't in the Quran, but based upon some opinionated commentary you've read. I have read numerous interpretations of those verses, none of them support your own. As a religious doctrine, it is open to some interpretation, but it is also very important that we realize that we take it at face value, because that is how 99% of people read it. As you said, the Bible directly stated Jordan to be the only place for the Jews to kill everyone. A direct translation of the Quran has open-ended decrees of violence, and if you want more examples I would be more than happy to supply.

I also find it intriguing that you support the massacre of those who fight against Muslims, someone could easily interpret that to justify global terrorism. Also, it seems like a "religion of peace" would say to love your enemies, like some other religions do.
Quote:
Ok so what did we learn here? That the atrocities, at least in those verses, can be justified. An eye for an eye isn't exactly my favorite justice system, but it's significantly more reasonable than, "You're my chosen people, so kill those people and take their land" (regarding Israel). I mean, the Bible has violence and genocide everywhere in it, ordered by God.
Whenever the Bible called for violence, it was almost always closed ended. Islam has open-ended calls to violence, far different. I am also curious of your opinion on the Palestinian conflict, since you seem to characterize Israel as being founded upon unjust violence towards natives.
Quote:
"Allah" is Arabic for God. In the Middle East, followers of each religion say Allah and they all know they worship the same God. However, Christianity has a fundamentally different understanding of God because of the Trinity. Our God isn't a different God from Islam's, no more than it is different than the God of Judaism. That's because Arabs are supposedly descended from Ishmael instead of Isaac, and they held onto the same God as the descendants of Isaac. And if you say we worship a different God than the Jews, then I'd say you're totally wrong.
Islam characterizes Allah as someone who schemes, is capable of evil, and casts fear. Christianity characterizes God as loving, perfect, and incapable of evil. Allah is a detached god who simply observes man, while God constantly strives to make a relationship with us. God love is unconditional, Allah doesn't love those who oppose him. God is entirely just to all, Allah shows favoritism. Christian's God died for them, Allah commands people to die for him. So no, there are vast differences.
   
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Re: "The War on Islam" - January 10th 2017, 04:56 AM

My research is from the Qur'an. That was from the Qur'an, it's in MY Qur'an, and mine is also a physical copy. So you saying there is no interpretation like mine is totally wrong because my Qur'an says it in plain English. Saheeh International, that's who wrote and revised mine, and it's a very well-respected translation. Who did yours? You don't need a link, just write who translated it.
A massacre is the slaughter of helpless people. The Qur'an only said to kill the people who took what's yours, and don't transgress. It also says that if they cease, all will be forgiven. That isn't a massacre. Jericho, on the other hand, is the very definition of a massacre. Anyway, you saying I support a massacre is completely ridiculous. That's not in line with anything that I said. I said the atrocities can be justified in an eye to eye manner compared to Jericho where there was no justification to kill everyone. If I could clear that up, I would say there was a justification, meaning they at least had a halfway legitimate reason to do it.
The entire book of Revelations is made of open-ended violence. Jesus literally comes back (with a sword coming out of His mouth, no less) to kill His enemies. One of the reasons some conservatives love Israel so much is because they believe that once Israel is complete again, there will be the battle of Armageddon. If Revelation isn't open-ended, I don't know what is. And mind you, that's in the New Testament, so the idea that Biblical violence ended after Jesus was born, died, and resurrected is incorrect.
Islam characterizes God as someone who schemes, is capable of evil, and casts fear. If you're gonna say that, then you should hold the God of the Bible to the same standard. He literally killed 99.99999% of the world's population with a flood. He obliterated Sodom and Gomorrah for being 'wicked'. He told the Israelites to kill people just because he promised one person descendants and land. He hardened the pharaohs heart so he wouldn't let the Hebrews go, causing the plagues, including the death of each first born. That was needless.
As for Israel, no, I don't think they should have been there in the first place. They committed genocide and stole land in the Old Testament. As it is, I don't believe they should have been exiled from that land by the Romans, but I also don't think the Zionists should have been given Israel after WW2. As for the present, there should be a two state solution with Palestine, no doubt about it. You can't just kick people (from either side) out of the country, there have been generations of people living in both future states. A two state solution is the best thing to end the conflict and provide stability. Also, Netanyahu should be imprisoned for war crimes because the Israeli settlements are illegal according to the Geneva Conventions. Any other war criminals on either side should also be imprisoned.
Something to keep in mind, though, is that I am a Christian. I disbelieve huge swaths of the Bible, but I try to keep Jesus' central messages like the shelter the homeless, feed the poor and the Golden Rule as a few of my guiding philosophies, and those principles show up in my politics. But just to reiterate, I don't follow any holy book according to a literal interpretation. The Bible contradicts itself too much for me to take the whole thing seriously.


Wish I lived in Canada. UPDATE, NOV. 9th, 2016: This statement has become even more appropriate.
I vow that I will attack this endeavor with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. Jim Harbaugh

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