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Racism - January 17th 2017, 05:18 PM

This thread has been labeled as non-PG13 by the original poster or by a Moderator. The contents of this thread might therefore not be suitable for younger users. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

Racism is discrimination based on someones race. It has nothing to do with being a "minority" or "oppressed" or "power".

"
Quote:
1[mass noun] Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior:" - Oxford Dictionary.
Quote:
"1
: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2
a : a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b : a political or social system founded on racism
3
: racial prejudice or discrimination" - Merriam-Webster
Quote:
"B2 the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races:" - Cambridge dictionary
Quote:
"noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races." - dictionary.com
If you don't think you can be racist towards white people then you are wrong, and racist.

Last edited by MsNobleEleanor; January 28th 2017 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Adding pre-fix
   
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Re: Racism - January 17th 2017, 07:57 PM

Very simple explanation. Those who deny this are just denying that minorities don't have the equal right to be jerks. There is no "systemic power" requirement to be a racist. Racism is a form of hatred towards other races. Whites can be racist to blacks, blacks can be racist to whites, Asians can be racist towards to black people, Asians can be racist towards white people, etc. The "privilege" requirement to be a racist is just an excuse by whiny SJWs to play down the hateful actions of minorities towards others. By claiming that only white people can be racist, you are claiming that white people are inferior and thus you are actually being a racist.

Though this does have advantages. SJWs don't know how to respond to minorities who don't conform to their sterotypes. That's half the reason I wanted Ben Carson to run for president, SJWs would be having heart attacks trying to figure out how to respond to his positions, since their typical response to anything non-liberal is "racist!!!!!". Of course they will probably start saying that he isn't a "true" black man, which is both hypocritical and stereotyping.

Last edited by PlasmaHam; January 17th 2017 at 08:19 PM.
   
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Re: Racism - January 17th 2017, 08:26 PM

THANK YOU!

I just legit shouted that at my laptop screen, this is the simple and only explanation for racism

Also, inb4 brigading SJW's and lefties saying it's "Predjudice and power"


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Re: Racism - January 17th 2017, 10:41 PM

I almost always side with the supposed "SJW position", because its usually technically right even if it just comes down to minor annoyances and mundane details. But with regard to the disabled white guy getting beat up by the four black people because he's white, that's CLEARLY racism. Even if it "technically" doesn't fit under the term racism according to some college textbook, it doesn't even matter. You wanna call it anti-white bigotry, go ahead, it amounts to the same thing, a guy being beaten because of his race/skin color.
This isn't totally related, but liberals don't have a monopoly on political correctness at all, and that's something that's widely misunderstood. Right-wingers always use it, but it's usually a smoke screen for just being plain incorrect. Case in point: Israel sets up illegal settlements on the West Bank. Illegal settlements according to the Geneva Conventions. 14 countries in the UN condemn that, saying "DUH", and call a spade a spade. The US also calls a spade a spade but doesn't vote to condemn it, and every Republican in Congress/FOX News screams repeatedly, "OBAMA'S ANTISEMETIC!!!" I've literally talked to a guy at my school who first talked nonstop shit about SJWs, then went on to complain about Obama's supposed racism towards Israel. That's delicious hypocrisy. Another obvious case, Donald Trump says there are Muslims cheering as the twin towers came down. He's completely, 100% wrong, but then he goes around saying, "they're just mad because I'm politically incorrect". No Trump, they're mad because you're completely incorrect and an idiot.
Didn't mean to derail the topic, but oh well, I feel like it's an important point to make. FWIW, there are other topics like that too.


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Re: Racism - January 17th 2017, 11:00 PM

I'm sorry to interrupt the debate but from my perspective, that beating was not an issue of racism. I won't deny that any race can be racist against one that isn't their own and maybe that was partially the case here. But the main thing I am seeing is that these guys–I don't care what color they are–beat up a helpless disabled individual and I don't care what color he is either. The fact remains: someone with special needs was beaten up and humiliated, and that pisses me off to no extent.

/exitsoapbox
   
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Re: Racism - January 17th 2017, 11:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleidoscope. View Post
I'm sorry to interrupt the debate but from my perspective, that beating was not an issue of racism. I won't deny that any race can be racist against one that isn't their own and maybe that was partially the case here. But the main thing I am seeing is that these guys–I don't care what color they are–beat up a helpless disabled individual and I don't care what color he is either. The fact remains: someone with special needs was beaten up and humiliated, and that pisses me off to no extent.

/exitsoapbox
I wasn't specifically referring to this situation. But to address it, this was a racially motivated attack, I couldn't care less if the person was disabled, the crime would have been just as abhorrent regardless of the mental/physical state of the victim and ignoring the race side will only make it worse for the victim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak
I almost always side with the supposed "SJW position", because its usually technically right even if it just comes down to minor annoyances and mundane details.
I'm sorry, but that is just wrong. Social justice is so regressive that it is doing more harm than good.
   
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Re: Racism - January 18th 2017, 01:52 AM

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Originally Posted by Kaleidoscope. View Post
I'm sorry to interrupt the debate but from my perspective, that beating was not an issue of racism. /exitsoapbox
I understand your logic and concern here. But this debate is not so much about this specific case of racism, but towards the provocative and controversial comments some wrote concerning the "innability" for minorities to be racist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post

I'm sorry, but that is just wrong. Social justice is so regressive that it is doing more harm than good.
I'm going to have to agree with you here. I know a couple hardcore liberals on another forum, and even they constantly stress how they don't support SJW actions. I have never heard a legitimate argument in support of SJW, all their positions are just temper-tantrums, anti-free speech rants, and begging for free stuff.

Last edited by Melancholia.; January 21st 2017 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Please treat users with respect at all times.
   
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Re: Racism - January 18th 2017, 05:01 PM

[edited]
Well Jesus, it depends on what type of social justice you're talking about because it covers a broad spectrum of topics. As a couple examples, we could be talking about economical social justice, where I support equal opportunity (not equal outcome), it could relate to police activity, where I tend to side with the person without a weapon, or maybe it could be related to speech, in which I almost never support censorship. Like if you were to argue that basic racial equality is bad, I'd just say you're a bad person. If you were to argue that the right to universal education and healthcare isn't a right, I'd argue how non-productive your system will be as a result, and tell you how other countries do it better. If you argued that we should always defer to the cop when they shoot someone, I'd argue against that as well as the idea that cops should be armed like soldiers. But if you were to support the University of California's ridiculous list of taboo words and phrases (that includes such things as "I believe the most qualified person should get the job") then I'd just argue that you're a completely silly person. So as it relates to speech and censorship, I almost always err on the side of free speech because if you don't like what someone says, then I think you should use your own words to counter them. But here are some "SJW policies" that I don't support.
Microaggressions. Might be real, who cares if they are.
Trigger warnings. Wrongly used 75% of the time.
Swear words. Who the fuck cares.
Safe spaces. Biggest joke on earth.
That law they're trying to get through in Canada where you have to get somebody's gender correct, even if if its a crapshoot between 25 genders. An example of an actual policy that is stereotypical SJW.
Halloween costumes. I couldn't care less because every costume could potentially offend somebody, but if you wear a Hitler costume, being shunned is your own reward.
The thing about Social Justice Warriors is that their ideas usually have the right intent, but they just might be bad ideas. Hell, even that phrase on Cal Berkeley's taboo list (the most qualified person should get the job) has kind of decent intent, because it's supposed to avoid the implication that if minorities can't get a job, its because white people deserved it (and I'm really stretching to try to justify that). On the other hand though, there is still definitely a conservative flip side of politically correct (but almost always incorrect) people that shut down debates over other things, like arguing against the Bible or guns, or telling people they shouldn't protest anything.


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Last edited by Melancholia.; January 21st 2017 at 10:54 PM. Reason: This part of the post relates to a previously deleted post.
   
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Re: Racism - January 22nd 2017, 06:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
[edited]
Well Jesus, it depends on what type of social justice you're talking about because it covers a broad spectrum of topics. As a couple examples, we could be talking about economical social justice, where I support equal opportunity (not equal outcome), it could relate to police activity, where I tend to side with the person without a weapon, or maybe it could be related to speech, in which I almost never support censorship. Like if you were to argue that basic racial equality is bad, I'd just say you're a bad person. If you were to argue that the right to universal education and healthcare isn't a right, I'd argue how non-productive your system will be as a result, and tell you how other countries do it better. If you argued that we should always defer to the cop when they shoot someone, I'd argue against that as well as the idea that cops should be armed like soldiers. But if you were to support the University of California's ridiculous list of taboo words and phrases (that includes such things as "I believe the most qualified person should get the job") then I'd just argue that you're a completely silly person. So as it relates to speech and censorship, I almost always err on the side of free speech because if you don't like what someone says, then I think you should use your own words to counter them. But here are some "SJW policies" that I don't support.
Microaggressions. Might be real, who cares if they are.
Trigger warnings. Wrongly used 75% of the time.
Swear words. Who the fuck cares.
Safe spaces. Biggest joke on earth.
That law they're trying to get through in Canada where you have to get somebody's gender correct, even if if its a crapshoot between 25 genders. An example of an actual policy that is stereotypical SJW.
Halloween costumes. I couldn't care less because every costume could potentially offend somebody, but if you wear a Hitler costume, being shunned is your own reward.
The thing about Social Justice Warriors is that their ideas usually have the right intent, but they just might be bad ideas. Hell, even that phrase on Cal Berkeley's taboo list (the most qualified person should get the job) has kind of decent intent, because it's supposed to avoid the implication that if minorities can't get a job, its because white people deserved it (and I'm really stretching to try to justify that). On the other hand though, there is still definitely a conservative flip side of politically correct (but almost always incorrect) people that shut down debates over other things, like arguing against the Bible or guns, or telling people they shouldn't protest anything.
Wait they're trying to write it into law that I have to use bullshit words like Zie and Zey? Oh Jesus Christ why?!?!?! That should definitely not be a legal issue....
   
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Re: Racism - January 22nd 2017, 05:06 PM

We talked about it in a previous thread, I think the law just pertained to a city, not a province or all of Canada.


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Re: Racism - January 26th 2017, 09:27 PM

There's a lot in this "debate" but I'm ignoring most of it as it's just tangents about social justice warriors and whether or not they're advantageous or...something? I'm not really sure how to quantify that besides gut reactions, opinions from the MRA sub-reddit and gifs (I've seen no scientific/anthropologic studies even creating a clear defined construct of SJW and how to categorize them, measure their impact good and bad, etc, but let me know if one's been published ), but regardless, it's not the topic and I don't care about it anyway.

I think your intention behind this post is establishing that you believe that minorities can be racist towards whites, and your defined reasons are a list of dictionary definitions of racism. This is a weak argument. English is a living language, and dictionary definitions change. Definitions also vary between social science fields, and even within fields, honestly. Do you have other reasons you feel that way besides "oxford said so?" Even if anecdotal. I just want something more to work with for a debate.

The definition of racism that you seem to be very against (racism being prejudice plus power that can cause institutional discrimination/oppression) comes out of sociology and intergroup relations. I learned about it in social psychology. The intention behind it is to split prejudice (a feeling against intergroups, or people outside your ingroup; often seen as natural and potentially protective as a way to identify and create schemas about outgroups) and institutionalized prejudice at a society-level They define racism as beyond a simple prejudice and that there must be some type of societal power to create the societal change/discrimination/etc. This is helpful for the field, especially for people who do intervention work in inter-group dialogue and such, as there are different factors that influence this definition of racism vs. other prejudices although both are problems and require work. Personally, I find this definition makes sense. Anecdotally, likely due to the power I possess as a white person in the United States, I have never dealt with racism. Sure, somebody has made assumptions about me because I am white such as where I come from, my income, the languages I speak, or beliefs I may have. Some of these, when negative, could stem from prejudices against me/my race. But my race has never influenced me getting a job or has impacted my safety, which is something minorities deal with on a daily basis. I do think that there are many crimes, acts of hate, etc, against whites that are influenced because they are white or of whatever the power group is in a country (not to me personally and I'd guess not as frequent as the occurrences for minorities but I do not have that data in front of me), but that it makes sense to have a separate definition for racism against the non-power group and have separate judiciary sentencing (hate-crime statutes) due to the societal power influencing those crimes.

For those disagreeing, if you could provide more backing to your opinions other than "dictionary" and "those damn SJWs" I'd be glad to have a conversation about it. It's an important discussion, and because English is a living language, social science isn't a stagnant science, and that I don't believe in one set truth, I'm generally curious on your experiences that brought you to hold firmly that there is racism towards whites. I am white, I've never seen racism towards whites, and separating racism from prejudice using power as a function always made sense to me.


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Re: Racism - January 26th 2017, 09:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
There's a lot in this "debate" but I'm ignoring most of it as it's just tangents about social justice warriors and whether or not they're advantageous or...something? I'm not really sure how to quantify that besides gut reactions, opinions from the MRA sub-reddit and gifs (I've seen no scientific/anthropologic studies even creating a clear defined construct of SJW and how to categorize them, measure their impact good and bad, etc, but let me know if one's been published ), but regardless, it's not the topic and I don't care about it anyway.

I think your intention behind this post is establishing that you believe that minorities can be racist towards whites, and your defined reasons are a list of dictionary definitions of racism. This is a weak argument. English is a living language, and dictionary definitions change. Definitions also vary between social science fields, and even within fields, honestly. Do you have other reasons you feel that way besides "oxford said so?" Even if anecdotal. I just want something more to work with for a debate.

The definition of racism that you seem to be very against (racism being prejudice plus power that can cause institutional discrimination/oppression) comes out of sociology and intergroup relations. I learned about it in social psychology. The intention behind it is to split prejudice (a feeling against intergroups, or people outside your ingroup; often seen as natural and potentially protective as a way to identify and create schemas about outgroups) and institutionalized prejudice at a society-level They define racism as beyond a simple prejudice and that there must be some type of societal power to create the societal change/discrimination/etc. This is helpful for the field, especially for people who do intervention work in inter-group dialogue and such, as there are different factors that influence this definition of racism vs. other prejudices although both are problems and require work. Personally, I find this definition makes sense. Anecdotally, likely due to the power I possess as a white person in the United States, I have never dealt with racism. Sure, somebody has made assumptions about me because I am white such as where I come from, my income, the languages I speak, or beliefs I may have. Some of these, when negative, could stem from prejudices against me/my race. But my race has never influenced me getting a job or has impacted my safety, which is something minorities deal with on a daily basis. I do think that there are many crimes, acts of hate, etc, against whites that are influenced because they are white or of whatever the power group is in a country (not to me personally and I'd guess not as frequent as the occurrences for minorities but I do not have that data in front of me), but that it makes sense to have a separate definition for racism against the non-power group and have separate judiciary sentencing (hate-crime statutes) due to the societal power influencing those crimes.

For those disagreeing, if you could provide more backing to your opinions other than "dictionary" and "those damn SJWs" I'd be glad to have a conversation about it. It's an important discussion, and because English is a living language, social science isn't a stagnant science, and that I don't believe in one set truth, I'm generally curious on your experiences that brought you to hold firmly that there is racism towards whites. I am white, I've never seen racism towards whites, and separating racism from prejudice using power as a function always made sense to me.
But that is all completely wrong. My evidence isn't because "Oxford said so" it's because every single source except for a very niche group defines it as such. And this niche group have changed the definition because all white people must feel white guilt.
This is also ignoring the fact that Asians are the most privileged group in America yet it is still possible to be racist towards them, could you please explain that?

Regarding English being an evolving language, yes, that is technically true but in no way does that mean that definitions change, just that new definitions for preexisting words are added. But to use you argument against you, here are a bunch of words that I will start using as obviously the definition has changed.
I will start calling things I don't like gay. I will start calling people whom annoy me faggot. I will start referring to people into hip hop niggers.
On top of all those, this whole response actually makes no sense what so ever because obviously definitions don't exist. See how stupid sounds?

If you want to test your theory about the word racism changing, try using your definition in a court of law and see how everybody laughs at you.

If you honestly believe that the definition of racism has changed then I am sorry but your education has failed you and was/is a waste of money.
   
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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 01:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post


But that is all completely wrong. My evidence isn't because "Oxford said so" it's because every single source except for a very niche group defines it as such. And this niche group have changed the definition because all white people must feel white guilt.
This is also ignoring the fact that Asians are the most privileged group in America yet it is still possible to be racist towards them, could you please explain that?

Regarding English being an evolving language, yes, that is technically true but in no way does that mean that definitions change, just that new definitions for preexisting words are added. But to use you argument against you, here are a bunch of words that I will start using as obviously the definition has changed.
I will start calling things I don't like gay. I will start calling people whom annoy me faggot. I will start referring to people into hip hop niggers.
On top of all those, this whole response actually makes no sense what so ever because obviously definitions don't exist. See how stupid sounds?

If you want to test your theory about the word racism changing, try using your definition in a court of law and see how everybody laughs at you.

If you honestly believe that the definition of racism has changed then I am sorry but your education has failed you and was/is a waste of money.
I have to agree with Coffee on this one. I am wondering though what makes you think that Asians are the most privileged group? Asia is a huge continent with people of different ethnicities, religions and histories. People from Middle Eastern countries can be considered Asian and they've faced so much racism especially post 9/11. The Philippines is considered part of Asia and there is a lot of racism faced by Philippinos. Also immigrants from these countries are many times poor, fleeing violence and have a harder time becoming US citizens which means they have less priviledge as a person without citizenship than a Western European immigrant living here who is likely to easily gain legal status. In the USA, Muslims have been a target and Islam is interconnected with Asian background and while muslims as a whole from any part of the world are targeted, Muslim immigrants from Asian and African countries face a particular kind of scrutiny. The USA classifies Middle Eastern and North African Countries as "White" but this is changing and the new census may end up having their own category of MENA (Middle East and North Africa). But putting that aside, Middle Easterns and North Africans are currently legally considered White. However, I identify as Asian (Afro-Asian) and I know many Arabs and Middle Eastern descent people put themselves down as Asian and identify as such and I can guarantee you that people of Middle Eastern descent are not priviledged. And then the argument may be that, well East Asians are overrepresented in top universities so they're priviledged? They may be one of the wealthier minorities but that does not mean they do not face racism. East Asians have a long history in the USA of being racially discriminated against since the 1800s. In every ethnic or racial group there are rich people and poor people and being wealthier and having more resources may mean that they have more priviledge when it comes to class. Similarly, the Obamas are African American and upper middle class and may not understand the particular experience of a poor Black person living in the ghetto. There are White people living in the ghetto and there are minorities living in mansions, this is one segment of priviledge but as a group, Asians are not the most priviledged in society. Lighter skinned Asians or White-passing people of color may have a certain kind of priviledge but they still are a person of color which means their community is oppressed even if they somehow don't feel it as much on a personal level. But I can tell you that even White-passing people are affected, at least second-hand, if a family member is a victim to a racist incident
   
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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 01:08 AM

Traci hit just about everything I was thinking, but I'll just throw in my two cents as well.

I can understand your argument that based on the dictionary definition, people of color could be racist towards white people. The problem with that argument is that you're viewing racism as just a word and not as a nuanced idea with hundreds of years of history attached to it. African-Americans were enslaved in the Americas for years, native Americans didn't gain citizenship until 1924 (meaning they couldn't vote in their own country), Chinese immigrants faced segregation and prejudice for years, and today, people of color continue to be incarcerated more frequently and given longer sentences than white people with similar crimes (to name one of the many examples of modern racism). White people (and I'm mostly going off U.S. and Britain here since that's what I'm most familiar with) have a long history of oppressing people of color that can't just be ignored when discussing racism and reverse racism.

When a person of color has resentment towards white people, I think that's fair. Their cultures and people have been and continue to be victims of white imperialism and racism, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to be angry about that. This obviously doesn't justify acts of violence against individual white people who have legitimately done nothing wrong themselves, but speaking as a white person, i can understand why people of color would be angry. On the flip side, if a white person hates African-Americans, they don't have any reason at all. White people have never been systematically oppressed by minorities.

Several of your definitions, and Traci's response, reference political and social systems that oppress minorities as the definition of racism. Only white people (in the U.S.) are in a position to do that. White men make up 31% of the population and 65% of elected offices. The white majority in offices that create and enforce legislation means that it's impossible for other races to systematically oppress white people.

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Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post

this niche group have changed the definition because all white people must feel white guilt.
That is not at all the point. You don't need to personally feel guilty for segregation and the slave trade. What white people do need to do is recognize that generally, we are coming from a place of privilege, and as a race with a history of racism, we need to listen to POC concerns. And I'm also a little confused by your statement that everyone except "niche" sources agree with you – a google search for "reverse racism" gives several sources arguing that it's nonexistent. There are arguments that favor your opinion, but they are in the minority and largely from openly biased news sites, so I wouldn't say that my opinion is a "niche" opinion.

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Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post
This is also ignoring the fact that Asians are the most privileged group in America yet it is still possible to be racist towards them, could you please explain that?
Asians do tend to have a higher education than most Americans and have a higher income, but they face other challenges, such as a higher poverty rate that white people. Also, connecting to what I said above, they are still underrepresented in public offices. There are 12 Asian members of Congress (2.2%) and Asian-Americans make up 5.8% of the total population (as of 2011, and they are one of the fastest growing minorities).

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Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post
I will start calling things I don't like gay. I will start calling people whom annoy me f*****. I will start referring to people into hip hop n*****.
This point is honestly completely unfounded and illogical, not to mention homophobic and racist. Once again, this thinking completely ignores every historical and social implication attached to these words. I can guarantee that any gay person will tell you that that word is still incredibly insensitive and disrespectful. It might have largely fallen out of use (for good reason), but the meaning hasn't changed in the slightest. Same goes for the N-word. Not every word changes, and you, as a straight white person (sorry for assuming here, but as you made this argument, I feel pretty safe in my guess that you're straight and white), don't have any authority to decide when derogatory words towards marginalized communities have lost their meanings.

I hope I don't sound like I'm entirely dismissing your point, as that's not my intention. Like Traci said, I would love to see some other support besides dictionaries and similar sources.



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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 07:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Jesus Christ. View Post


I will start calling things I don't like gay. I will start calling people whom annoy me faggot. I will start referring to people into hip hop niggers.


If you honestly believe that the definition of racism has changed then I am sorry but your education has failed you and was/is a waste of money.
Ok, top sentence: common-sense homophobia, common-sense racism. Are you kidding me? You should've just left that out. Saying things you don't like are gay associates gay with bad. I don't think its earth-shattering or anything, but its homophobic. Calling someone a faggot is definitely homophobic. Ask any gay guy who got the shit beaten out of them while hearing that. And calling someone who listens to hip-hop a nigger? Are you kidding me? There's a ton of bad blood with that word and some horrible history with it, and its super demeaning. Its not like super demeaning words are all inherently racist, but this one specifically targets a race. For what its worth, if you ever called me a faggot because I was being annoying, I'd tell you to suck my balls. I'm bi and yes, faggot is offensive (Not like I personally would start a fight over it or anything, but still). If you called me a nigger because I love hip-hop, I'd look at you like you're a dunce because I'm white as chalk. The hip-hop thing doesnt make any sense. On the other hand, freaking out just from hearing the words gay, faggot, and nigger in a neutral or academic context is definitely unreasonable.
Second sentence: Me and Coffee went to the same school, and its one of the best in the world, at least in terms of rankings. It's really, really good, even if I disagree with some of their terminology regarding the word "racism".
I already erased the part about white guilt, but its a fact that white people have set up a government, economy, definitely a justice system, and an educational structure that is systematically built to screw non-white people. White guilt... Its not like they're asking us to be guilty, its just saying, "hey, this is what white people have done to other races in the past, and it fucking sucked." No reasonable person is telling you to feel guilty. No reasonable person is saying, "hey, this what YOU did," either. If you do feel any type of feeling for what your race has done, thats weirdly tribalistic because you feel like you're part of some sort of team. I usually don't associate tribalism with smart, nuanced thinking.
On the definition of racism though, which is what the thread is originally about, I think its just splitting hairs. Like if a black guy called me a cracker, I'd think, "Yeah, thats a little racist", but its nowhere near the ballpark of if I called him a nigger because thats a significantly worse word because of context. But I don't think its really worth the time to sit and think about the technicalities of whether a slur (or action) was racist or prejudiced. A slur is a slur, and if its meant to be insulting or harmful, then that's the point of it.
I'm having a thought though, and it might be because I've been awake for 25 hours. With Coffee's definition of racism, with the nuances of societal injustice included, could the word retard and being anti-mentally disability somehow be included as racist? I KNOW thats stupid, but since its based on prejudice and systematic injustice, would it fit?


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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 09:08 AM

Let's deconstruct this my way, since I want to deliver my legitimate two cents instead of going into shitpost mode like I did earlier in this thread, I'll be shedding light on some more recent comments

Quote:
I can understand your argument that based on the dictionary definition, people of color could be racist towards white people. The problem with that argument is that you're viewing racism as just a word and not as a nuanced idea with hundreds of years of history attached to it. African-Americans were enslaved in the Americas for years, native Americans didn't gain citizenship until 1924 (meaning they couldn't vote in their own country), Chinese immigrants faced segregation and prejudice for years, and today, people of color continue to be incarcerated more frequently and given longer sentences than white people with similar crimes (to name one of the many examples of modern racism). White people (and I'm mostly going off U.S. and Britain here since that's what I'm most familiar with) have a long history of oppressing people of color that can't just be ignored when discussing racism and reverse racism.
You're talking about history, and yes, the US has a history of racism. But every country has at least some history of racism in their own way. It's not limited to modern western countries (South Africa being anti-white for example). But part of history should be forgiven and learned from, and what I see with this liberal doublespeak is that it's completely reversed instead of finding common ground. I sometimes think these kind of people want racism to continue existing in a big way so they can moan and bitch about their race being underprivileged and wanting to have benefits or even wanting to eradicate the white race completely (Search Gazi Kodzo, he's nicknamed Black Hitler for a reason), but I'll stop the rant about that here. Also, reverse racism doesn't exist, it's just called racism in my book

Quote:
What white people do need to do is recognize that generally, we are coming from a place of privilege, and as a race with a history of racism, we need to listen to POC concerns.
Isn't that called having basic human respect regardless of the thought about privilege? I regard black/asian/middle eastern trans gay migrant people (For example) as just as human (No more, no less) as a white straight male and treat them with respect, provided they're respectful to me and not terrorists. If someone here sees that as colorblind "racism", I cannot see common ground with you on that issue and I honestly think you're too fixated on white people having white guilt

Quote:
I will start calling things I don't like gay. I will start calling people whom annoy me faggot. I will start referring to people into hip hop niggers.
If you're doing this in private/anonymously, nothing much cannot really be done about it. But if you're doing this publicly, you're gonna catch shit with it from other people. Although you're using this in a different context (Which I understand), I can still understand why people will give you shit regardless (Not trying to get at you, you're one of the more based users on this forum, but I disagree with you here)

I'm also gonna call out black people saying the N word or calling white people crackers and defending it because they're black and the only ones who can "say it", just don't say it either. If you're saying it to my face and I "cannot say it". I'm gonna speak Dutch to you and if you can't understand it... That's the point. (Sorry for the rant but I've been hearing this shitspeak for a long time)

Quote:
Like if a black guy called me a cracker, I'd think, "Yeah, thats a little racist", but its nowhere near the ballpark of if I called him a nigger because thats a significantly worse word because of context.


I do think the shoe has to be worn on the other foot regardless of race though, just saying

Quote:
With Coffee's definition of racism, with the nuances of societal injustice included, could the word retard and being anti-mentally disability somehow be included as racist?
Has nothing to do with race, but ability. I am disabled myself so I see it as worse, but thing is, nobody has control over either their skin color or disability (I didn't ask for my disability). To me, it's either a broad definition of discrimination or it could be placed in small labels like racism and ableism. I don't care which, but please as less double standard as possible


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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 11:46 AM

Claiming that your definition is right while all the dictionary definitions are wrong because English is "a living language" is the definition of a weak argument. I could win any argument if I had the power to redefine words to my world view, but I don't, and neither do you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak
an educational structure that is systematically built to screw non-white people
Could you explain why Asian Americans and especially female Asian Americans get considerably better school and college scores than white people if the system is "systemically" built to screw them?

@Jesus Christ made a good point that you inadvertently supported. You seem to have a problem with a "living language" when it hurts the sacred minority, but are fully in support of it when it helps the sacred minority. If English is a "living language" then people should be able to redefine words to however their world view sees it, yet you seem to have a problem whenever that world view is non-PC. Hypocrisy much? Not unexpected from people who think redefining words is the best way to win an argument.

I find this whole debate to be nothing but people making up random definitions to defend the sacred minorities from being able to do the exact same stuff as white people. The definition is very simple, if you want to make up new ones please do, but no one besides the SJW niche will take you seriously.


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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 01:09 PM

Thumbs up for OP for throwing some sense at the world today.

Eff everybody who claims otherwise.


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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 01:44 PM

Eh, I think it is ridiculous that people are proud of "race." However, if that is the only thing they have that they can be proud of, well, that's really sad. Ultimately though, it is really where you were born that influences what kind of life you will live. If you're born poor, the odds are stacked against you (doesn't mean that you will not beat the odds).


I also find it amusing when people want people to pay for their own way based on the actions of someone's potential ancestors. What if my family members didn't come over to the United States till after WW2? Should I be exempt from proposed payments to African Americans? What about people whose family members fought for the North or assisted with the Underground Railroad? What if someone has an African American ancestor?


As for colleges, I think there should be no affirmative action. It should be like employment applications where they do not see race at all and it is illegal for them to have a head shot or ask what race you are.


Although, I will be honest that the US needs to redo the school system. They need to figure out a better way to fund it. They should also fund it in a way that doesn't penalize the schools that are performing poorly. (Not to mention my ex's rich school cheated and had a tutor sit with him and give him the answers to every math test). I remember when I went to a community college for nursing, I was taking a BS class and the girls in the class had an issue with a power point project we had. They copied and pasted from Wikipedia and didn't even change the format or remove the links.
   
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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 04:01 PM

^Good point. It is quite disturbing that so many minority groups are so obsessed with their own race and culture that they enforce a self-segregation upon themselves. I feel that if the Left would stop praising people for simply being black and shame people for being white then racism would hamper down considerably.

Don't get me started on Affirmative Action. That is near the top of my list of dumb ideas.


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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 08:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
It is quite disturbing that so many minority groups are so obsessed with their own race and culture that they enforce a self-segregation upon themselves.
So say you travelled with ten white male friends to China for a year to study or work or something, and every so often, you guys got together and made some American food and watched football. You got to speak your own language without fear of being misunderstood, you got to eat the food you're used to eating without anyone asking what it is, you got to do all the little cultural things you wouldn't usually get to do without being given weird looks. Would you call yourself disturbingly obsessed with your culture, or say you're enforcing self-segregation? People of color aren't "obsessed" with their own race and culture. That culture is just how they live their lives. It's probably different from yours, and if you're disturbed by that, that's not their problem, it's yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordioa18 View Post
part of history should be forgiven and learned from
This is exactly my point, actually. I think where we differ is the forgiveness aspect. I think that we as white people have to earn that forgiveness. We can't expect everything to just be perfect while people of color still face prejudice. Before we can be fairly forgiven, we're going to need to own up to what's been done historically and what's being done today. I personally don't expect (or want) any forgiveness of white Americans unless racism has been addressed and eliminated. That's what learning from history is. Based on whom we elected as president, I don't think we've learned or earned forgiveness yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordioa18 View Post
I sometimes think these kind of people want racism to continue existing in a big way so they can moan and bitch about their race being underprivileged and wanting to have benefits
By saying that "these people" (I assume you mean people of color?) want racism to continue existing, you're acknowledging that racism does still exist. I wouldn't call resisting it and speaking out "bitching and moaning." And there are going to be radical people on any side of an argument (see the alt-right/neonazis) but they by no means represent the majority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordioa18 View Post
Isn't that called having basic human respect regardless of the thought about privilege? I regard black/asian/middle eastern trans gay migrant people (For example) as just as human (No more, no less) as a white straight male and treat them with respect, provided they're respectful to me
That was basically what I was saying, too – treat others with basic human decency regardless of differences. But if a black person tells you that you're being racist, or if an LGBT+ person tells you you're being homophobic or transphobic, you need to listen to them and respect what they tell you to do/not do (as long as their requests aren't causing harm to anyone, of course).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordioa18 View Post
I'm also gonna call out black people saying the N word
I think MichWolverineFreak summed this one up pretty well: There's a ton of bad blood with that word and some horrible history with it. A black person saying the N-word is reclaiming a word that has, for years, been used with intentions of oppression and often violence. A white person saying it is contributing to the oppression. Context matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lelola View Post
What if my family members didn't come over to the United States till after WW2? Should I be exempt from proposed payments to African Americans? What about people whose family members fought for the North or assisted with the Underground Railroad? What if someone has an African American ancestor?
I'm actually in this category – my great-great-something-grandfather came just to fight for the Union. This doesn't change the fact that, as a white person, I experience white privilege.

Apparently I'm completely incapable of writing short posts. Oops.



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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 09:18 PM

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Originally Posted by fallingstargirl View Post
[color="Blue"][size="2"]
So say you travelled with ten white male friends to China for a year to study or work or something, and every so often, you guys got together and made some American food and watched football. You got to speak your own language without fear of being misunderstood, you got to eat the food you're used to eating without anyone asking what it is, you got to do all the little cultural things you wouldn't usually get to do without being given weird looks. Would you call yourself disturbingly obsessed with your culture, or say you're enforcing self-segregation? People of color aren't "obsessed" with their own race and culture. That culture is just how they live their lives. It's probably different from yours, and if you're disturbed by that, that's not their problem, it's yours.
How dare you assume my gender and race identity! Be it known that I identify as a rainbow pony and not as a white male! You are nothing but a equestist!* But since I am a forgiving pony I will forgive you and adapt your statement to fit my worldview.

Lets say that my equine ancestors lived in China for 200 years and constantly refused to assimilate into the rest of Chinese society, instead opting to live in communities consisting of entirely rainbow ponies. Now is that a bit weird? The same thing happens with many black people in America, they simply don't put in the effort to assimilate in the rest of society, instead opting for their niche ones. Do I think this is the best way for a multicultural society to thrive? I must say, neigh.


*Someone who see equines and/or people who identify as equines as inferior, mentally disabled, crazy, etc.
Quote:
I think that we as white people have to earn that forgiveness.
I am not accepting forgiveness for something I never did. Your statement is exactly what causes racism. You are saying that white people should beg forgiveness from black people for stuff they never did! What do you think happens when you constantly say that? You just create hate between the two races!

Frankly, you sound like an awful person when you say that white people aren't deserving of forgiveness and that black people shouldn't hold any forgiveness towards white people because they aren't deserving of it. Maybe you should look into the teachings of the Bible, which says that peace comes through unconditional forgiveness, not gulting people into forgiveness for stuff they never did. This is exactly what I stated earlier, minorities are so obsessed with race that they start hating white people! By saying that white people are not worthy of sympathy or forgiveness, then you are giving an excuse to hate!

Numerous ancestors of mine fought for the Confederacy. You expect shame and self-hate? You aren't getting it. CONFEDERATE AND PROUD BABY!


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Re: Racism - January 27th 2017, 10:36 PM

Quote:
A black person saying the N-word is reclaiming a word that has, for years, been used with intentions of oppression and often violence. A white person saying it is contributing to the oppression.
This double standard drivel is partly why I turned right in the first place

Quote:
I think that we as white people have to earn that forgiveness.


So it's our responsibility to feel guilty or make up for what our forefathers might or might not of done to the forefathers of the fellow colored person just because we share the same skin color? That's perpetuating white guilt textbook racism and you know it (You'll deny it anyway though). That's not an insult, that's just a fact of life


Quote:
By saying that "these people" (I assume you mean people of color?) want racism to continue existing, you're acknowledging that racism does still exist
I didn't deny that racism still exists at all though


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Re: Racism - January 28th 2017, 10:31 AM

Just dropping my two cents.
I think racism can occur towards anyone. I state this from my experiences, as I am an Asian (Indian) and I've seen that Asians (the ones I've met) tend to be rather racist towards those not in their community, as they try to exclude them in social settings, tend to make snarky remarks etc, and the White people I've met tend to be far more accepting and welcoming.
However, it is also very true that most of the world lives in a democracy, and the rule of the majority goes. So it is true that previously in the USA, due to White dominance there was racism against the Black people and this has carried on in some way. So, I guess the point I'm making here is that in today's world, especially due to the massive intermingling of different races and societies, the place where a certain group is in majority is the group against whom racism plays a smaller role.
Thats just my opinion, and I know its all over the place.


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Re: Racism - January 28th 2017, 11:20 AM

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Re: Racism - January 30th 2017, 04:45 AM

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHam View Post
SIZE="4"]CONFEDERATE AND PROUD BABY![/size]
What are you proud of?


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