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Fat Shaming - January 29th 2017, 09:21 PM

This thread has been labeled as triggering by the original poster or by a Moderator. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

I understand the basic concept of being against Fat Shaming. Bullying and being rude to someone because of their weight is wrong. However, I feel many people take this too far.

I have seen people justify unhealthy lives, because "It's about having a healthy body image!" and/or "I am naturally fat, I can't change it!" I have seen people who mocked or hated people simply for telling someone they need to lose weight. I have seen people go into an outrage simply because someone told them that they needed to lose weight, when they obviously did.

Do you feel that the anti-fat shaming campaign has gone from anti-bullying to justifying unhealthy lifestyles? Do you think that we should actively encourage people who are overweight and obese to lose weight? Do you think that we should continue to normalize overweight and obese lifestyles? I want to discuss these and other questions due to some disturbing comments I saw in some help forums here.


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Re: Fat Shaming - January 29th 2017, 09:41 PM

I don't think embracing a positive body image is anti-fat shaming gone too far. It's possible to have a positive body image at any size. There's a difference between promoting self and body-acceptance and promoting obesity as healthy and normal. The positive body image movement started as a way to teach people that you don't have to meet society's impossible standard of beauty to be healthy, and that health is more important than weight and body size. If you're reasonably healthy, with no medical problems and your doctor isn't concerned, or you're taking the best care of yourself as you can with a given health problem or chronic condition, then that's all you can do, and if you don't meet the standard of beauty, it's okay.

I think, if it's someone you care about who you know isn't taking care of themselves, then you should encourage them to lose weight. But, anyone else, they're health is none of your business. You have no idea why they're overweight. It could be from a medical condition or a medication, it's not always something they have complete control over, so judging them with no context of their medical history is inappropriate.


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Re: Fat Shaming - January 29th 2017, 09:54 PM

So, I should accept and support the lifestyle of a morbidly obese man which limits him from fully experiencing life and ultimately causes him to die years earlier than he would if he lived a healthy life? You are saying that I should encourage people to continue doing something that will ultimately kill them? If so, should I also support someone's decision to use illegal drugs or become a chronic smoker/drinker? Is it not my duty as a good person to encourage those people to stop those habits, even if I am not a close friend or family member?

You also seem to be missing the point. You are claiming that the anti-fat shaming campaign is not going overboard, yet you are saying that we shouldn't encourage unhealthy lifestyles, which is the opposite of what many anti-fat shamers say.

I'm not attacking you, I simply want an answer. I will post more after a few others post their opinions.


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Re: Fat Shaming - January 29th 2017, 10:03 PM

I"m saying if it's a stranger, then they're health and weight is none of your business and judging them probably won't cause them to change their behavior anyway. Accept that it's none of your business. That doesn't mean you accept, agree with, or are encouraging what they're doing.

If you can come from a place of love or concern for friends or family then encourage away, but judging people for something you don't agree with won't get you anywhere.


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Re: Fat Shaming - January 29th 2017, 11:06 PM

There's no evidence that shaming people for a health behavior increases their chance of change. It actually often does the opposite for some behaviors. Health, specifically weight, is complex and improving it comes more from changing a specific behavior (diet and exercise) rather than a specific metric (losing x amount of weight). So if it's not helpful to shame an overweight person for their health, what's the point of doing it?


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Re: Fat Shaming - January 30th 2017, 12:26 AM

An over weight person can be healthier then a normal weight person just for your information. I think it is none of anybodies fucking bussiness beside theirs and maybe their doctor. If they have a positive body image the that is fantastic for them. Telling them they are fat and should loose wieght can do one of two things...Make them go to extremes where they don't eat or puke after every meal and become even more unhealthy or they do the opposite and keep eating. Also you don't know if the person has an eating disorder they can't control like Bulimia or BED. I just think people should mind there own fucking business that also goes for the people who are to skinny. I believe no one should go up to them and say shit like "oh my god your a pile of bones" "Do you ever eat" it's rude.


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Re: Fat Shaming - January 30th 2017, 01:04 AM

Well based on the surprising replies this has gotten, my opinion seems like a minority.
Of course I don't agree with body-shaming, because like you said, bullying someone for their weight is just plain wrong, and ultimately it's quite detrimental and could cause them to become even more unhealthy. Shaming someone for being "too fat" or "too skinny" could very well cause them to become obese or develop an eating disorder.

So while body shaming is most definitely wrong in all cases, I don't think that solely promoting a healthier lifestyle is wrong or should be viewed as "body shaming". (Like this "thin privilege" shit. Since when is putting in the work to make MYSELF healthy a "privilege"? Shouldn't the privileged ones be the people who don't do anything to improve their body and health, yet still expect people to see them as beautiful?)
Half of my entire family is overweight/obese. There have been times where I've gone on vacation with this side of the family, and have gained edited pounds because they didn't want to have a single meal that wasn't fast food. What's interesting to note is that in one case, when we were staying at a hotel, I told my aunt I would be down in the gym room and she actually started giving me shit for "always wanting to waste my time working out". This happened again when I ordered from the low-calorie menu.
And it wasn't like I was doing this to rub it in her face or anything. I actually usually push my healthy lifestyle to the side when I'm spending time with this side of the family, and only do things like go to the hotel gym room and stuff like that when it won't take away from "family time" or whatever.

Body positivity is a great thing, and I think we should all feel good about the way we look. I do agree with what someone said above, where if there are no health complications due to your weight and the doctor's aren't worried about you, then yeah, there's no reason to not accept your body the way it is.
But "bigger" (by bigger I mean specifically to the point of being UNHEALTHY and OBESE) isn't always beautiful. I'm sorry, it just isn't. There's a reason the vast majority of people don't find obese people as attractive as fit and healthy people -- it's called instincts.
Fitness is seen as an ideal quality to have in a mate, because it will make for healthier offspring. That's literally why we find healthy people attractive: because they're healthy.

And I think that this body positivity movement has provided unhealthy people with a way to, yes, like you said, try and justify their unhealthy lifestyle.
The movement itself is beautiful and I agree with the message it's trying to make. However, as always, the extremists of the group have found a way to undermine the entire message. Nowadays I see more "body positive" people, making rant videos on how people should still find unhealthy, morbidly obese people attractive because everyone's beautiful.
And yeah, sure, everyone has beautiful qualities to them. I can agree with that.
But not everyone is healthy. That's not a good thing. Like come on people.


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Re: Fat Shaming - January 30th 2017, 02:04 AM

There are extremists in everything, it doesn't mean that you should discredit an entire concept. I think people get body positivity confused or combined with promoting or endorsing unhealthy lifestyles and they aren't supposed to be the same thing. Most people who follow the body positivity perspective are very quick to say that they AREN'T saying that being unhealthy is okay. Embracing a healthy lifestyle for yourself isn't body shaming, unless someone somehow rubs it in your face or compares themselves as "better' because they're taking care of themselves etc.

People could use anything as an excuse if you think about it, this is no different. You never know what someone else is dealing with and pointing it out to them isn't going to do any good. After the last two years I've had, I put on a significant amount of weight. I've personally never had an issue with my body image (surprisingly), but I'm well aware of my weight gain, and it's on my list of things to take care of, but the last thing I need on top of what I'm already dealing with is someone (a stranger) who thinks my body is their business, criticizing me when they have no idea.


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Re: Fat Shaming - January 30th 2017, 02:11 AM

I'm not going to put my opinion into this, I just want to say that you should try and keep the conversation polite and respectful even if you have differing opinions. Debates can get intense sometimes, so let's try and keep it polite.


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Re: Fat Shaming - January 30th 2017, 03:30 PM

I don't generally like "shaming" anything. Sometimes I feel it is necessary, but those cases are relatively rare. Those cases would generally be those where someone's actions directly and / or deliberately compromise other people's security and freedoms. Then yes, I support shaming someone like that. "Security" means someone's personal safety, health and monetary income. That's just my approach however.

If you're effectively bullying someone into losing weight, you break down their self-confidence (which compromises their mental health), which can affect their motivation to lose weight in the first place. Defeats the purpose. You force them into a defensive position, where such people like to then hide in these so called "safe spaces" and re-affirm among themselves that there is nothing wrong with them (when there is). There is such a thing as constructive criticism, and destructive criticism. Specific reactions of individuals of course also depends on the individuals, and whatever anecdotal evidence there is exists to suggest that "fat shaming" works, is nothing more than anecdotal. This evidence is better than nothing, but it isn't enough to convince me that bullying people and humiliating people is by default the most effective solution to solving problems such as obesity. Bullying is bullying. It might work to motivate some people, but in most cases it won't.

All that said...

I do not believe that being significantly overweight is "ok", at all. But neither do I believe in calling such people out in public and making examples of them (unless they did something to provoke it). Neither do I believe that they should be told that "there's nothing wrong with them" and that they're "perfect as they are", when scientific facts clearly state that obesity is correlated with numerous derivative health problems (not the other way round, aka other health problems don't cause obesity, instead in most cases obesity causes those problems).

People should be taught from a younger age to take more responsibility for who they are in life and what happens to them. If this was done, then fewer people would blame their own weight problems on miscellaneous variables in their lives which they have no control over. Here are the things which people do have control over in their lives:
- diet
- exercise
- sleep patterns
- relationships
- stress

All these things (and probably a few others which I don't remember) are known to have significant impacts on a person's weight. In developed nations, all these things, are within individual peoples' control. Especially diet and exercise. In developing nations, it's harder to pick and chose which "diet" you consume, but then again they don't usually have obesity problems anyway.

The non-representative exceptions on the fringe, where for example people have genuine physical disabilities (or other conditions) which prevent them from exercising effectively, are non-representative. They don't apply to probably 90% of people with weight problems. What part of the problem is, is that almost every person in every walk of life likes to think of themselves as "unique", and an exception to the rule. It lacks realism, and is therefore bullshit (with exception for those minority cases).

P.S. By bringing any topic into political discussion, people should acknowledge that they will be challenged on their views.
It doesn't matter what the topic is. What do I mean by this? Making obesity a political topic, by for example posting strong opinions on Facebook, automatically warrants people to respond to those views in a critical way. If someone doesn't like it, they shouldn't start it in the first place. It does not however (in my view) warrant personal attacks unless they somehow tie in with the debate itself (but it's still best avoided). Personal attacks are not arguments, so I usually ignore them. Wasted energy responding to them.

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Re: Fat Shaming - January 30th 2017, 07:00 PM

There are people who have told me that MY looks directly affected them because they have to look at an ugly person. My own father was one of those people and he has said it many times. Did this make me stop any of my self destructive behaviors? uhm no.

I agree with Frankie and others who've said that a person's weight is none of anyone's business except them and maybe their doctor. The parents of underage kids and teens, okay add that into the mix but never EVER shaming someone even if you're a parent.

Telling someone they need to lose weight IS offensive. This is not about being honest, it's about knowing how to filter yourself.
I also want to mention that a person's body is THEIR body. THEY are the one's who wake up in the morning with possibly back pain, if they have large breasts, then the back pain from that. THEY are the ones who have to go to a special section of the store to find clothing in their size. This is THEIR experience. They don't need anyone telling them what they should and shouldn't be doing. It doesn't mean you support unhealthy choices at all. It's not mutually exclusive.
I have friends and family members who are medically speaking, obese or near obese. The ones I do, DO make unhealthy choices but like anyone else are striving to do better for themself. Sometimes they even ridicule me for making healthy choices in front of them. I was shamed for being too skinny, too fat, too tall etc. None of this ever helped me. Eating healthy and being told "damn you're so picky with food" or something about how I'm so fancy, or so healthy and need to "calm down and stop being an old lady about things" is common for people to tell me but they're saying that because I'm at a "normal" weight and think I can "afford" to eat toxic food and think therefore I should. This is the other side of the coin of body-shaming people with obesity. Because if a slim person ate junk food, people might not say much, or they may warn the person "you'll become obese" or say "I'm so jealous, you can eat whatever you want and not gain any weight". But when people who are overweight eat a little sweets or fatty food, there's so much scrutiny on them, and people would shame them for "eating too much" when perhaps they may not even be eating enough! A common misconception is that people with obesity eat too much. Did you know that obesity is directly linked to poverty and malnutrition due to lack of food access? Maybe they eat chips and fries because there's a McDonald on every block but apples and bananas are very expensive especially for families. I went to a university in one of the richest neighborhoods and I go to therapy in one of the poorest neighborhoods in my city. There's a stark difference on the kinds of food offered, the wellbeing of the community who lives there, and them being overweight or obese. So this is a deep issue that has to do with a lot more than "bad choices" because I can assure you that a rich person making bad choices have a lot more access to resources that can change their lifestyle such as seeing a top notch doctor, access to gym facilities and memberships, walkability of their neighborhood, safe public spaces that they can ride their bike or walk around in, access to education on nutrition, access to top quality grocery stores with a variety of options, if the person has mental health issues that affects their weight, they can afford good therapy, alternative therapies and things like that.

I used to conduct workshops for kids with chronic health conditions such as obesity, diabetes, asthma, hypertension etc This was with an organization so I used recipes based on what I was given. The recipe asked for a blender, to make a smoothie. I was given a blender for the demo at the workshop but when the kids went home, many of them didnt have a blender. The kids told me, " I love making smoothies, but I dont have a blender at home. Maybe I can ask my mom" Their mom said "she'll think about it" It's her way of avoiding heartbreak because she cant afford a blender. I know this so well, because when I saw this happen, I know from my own childhood this is what had happened to me. Wanting to do things and being told no or later or maybe because my father could not afford "extra" things.
   
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Re: Fat Shaming - January 31st 2017, 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by In-the-way View Post
Telling someone they need to lose weight IS offensive. This is not about being honest, it's about knowing how to filter yourself.
I also want to mention that a person's body is THEIR body. THEY are the one's who wake up in the morning with possibly back pain, if they have large breasts, then the back pain from that. THEY are the ones who have to go to a special section of the store to find clothing in their size. This is THEIR experience. They don't need anyone telling them what they should and shouldn't be doing. It doesn't mean you support unhealthy choices at all.
I want to give a slightly different angle on this. In countries which have citizens pay for health insurance out of their own bank accounts, there (probably) is absolutely nothing wrong with anything you said. You know where I'm going with this.

In countries such as the UK however, there NHS (national health service) loses £4.2 billion annually in dealing with obesity. And the cost to society is estimated to be some £15 billion, although I have no idea how they came up with that number. Similar controversies are going on with smoking, and some people are talking about alcohol as well. Relatively recent news in the UK suggests that there is a push to gradually stop accommodating people on the NHS with self-inflicted health problems such as those caused by smoking and obesity.

You should be able to see from what I've said, that in some countries it isn't just the individual person's problem and business. When the money paying for these things comes directly from the taxpayer, then people will definitely talk about it. There are finite resource even in the most wealthy countries, and citizens prefer £4.2 billion to be spent on other things such as education perhaps. Or perhaps they just prefer to have their taxes lowered.

Also, some surgeries require people to lose a certain % of weight before their can qualify for the surgery.

Of course one of the consequences of talking about such things, is it emboldens a faction of morons (especially on the internet), who enjoy bullying people over their weight problems. It's not good, but it's life. Talking about almost anything controversial emboldens bullies somewhere. Just to give a fair comparison, talking about LGBT rights has led over the years to an emboldened group of people who even beat other people up outside speech events, threaten to shut down businesses, publicly humiliate other people, etc. Talking about race relations, inspires racists on the fringes, etc. There are lots of examples like this.

Unfortunately, nothing is perfect and some things are worth the sacrifice. Going too far with anything though, usually isn't worth the sacrifice. I don't generally condone bullying at all, but it's something people need to also learn to tolerate themselves. A few hurtful words can be tolerated by people. But there are a whole host of actions (which are illegal) such as stalking, harassing, assaulting, threatening, etc. which shouldn't be tolerated.

Just because there is a relatively small group of imbeciles who use the opportunity to bully others, doesn't invalidate genuine concerns of other people with legitimate arguments.

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Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Fat Shaming - January 31st 2017, 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by In-the-way View Post
A common misconception is that people with obesity eat too much. Did you know that obesity is directly linked to poverty and malnutrition due to lack of food access? Maybe they eat chips and fries because there's a McDonald on every block but apples and bananas are very expensive especially for families. I went to a university in one of the richest neighborhoods and I go to therapy in one of the poorest neighborhoods in my city. There's a stark difference on the kinds of food offered, the wellbeing of the community who lives there, and them being overweight or obese. So this is a deep issue that has to do with a lot more than "bad choices" because I can assure you that a rich person making bad choices have a lot more access to resources that can change their lifestyle such as seeing a top notch doctor, access to gym facilities and memberships, walkability of their neighborhood, safe public spaces that they can ride their bike or walk around in, access to education on nutrition, access to top quality grocery stores with a variety of options, if the person has mental health issues that affects their weight, they can afford good therapy, alternative therapies and things like that.
I don't know about the US, but in the UK you have street markets in almost every neighborhood (at least those I've been to). They sell vegetables, fruit etc. much cheaper than in supermarkets. I'm not really sure how well the argument that "healthy food is too expensive" holds up. In the case of restaurants it definitely does. In the case of food shopping... really? The porridge I buy is probably the cheapest breakfast cereal there is, although once I get into these habits I forget what the prices are. Just for comparison though:

- 1 medium big mac meal = £4

- 6 bananas (a bunch) = £1
- 4 lemons = £1
- 1 pineapple = £1
- 1 bunch of coriander = £0.80

I use the ingredients above to make myself so called "green smoothies". 1 banana, 1 lemon, half a pineapple, and 1 bunch of coriander (and water)... comes to less than £2 in total... and it's a big portion. Half the price of a Big Mac meal. Blenders can cost anywhere between £15 to as much as you're willing to pay. America probably sells them cheaper than the UK.

It'd be more accurate to say that healthy food often takes more time to prepare... and yes, lots of people with full time jobs are short on time. That's definitely the biggest problem I have.

Gyms cost money, yes. Running outside does not cost money. If running on your own feels too awkward, I'm sure there are people you can organize these sorts of things with online. Or if you have friends which have similar goals as yourself, join them.

Education on nutrition is abundant on the internet. I like to get a lot of my information from YouTube. I'm subscribed to this channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCad...ih1XLYg/videos

Quote:
Originally Posted by In-the-way View Post
The kids told me, " I love making smoothies, but I dont have a blender at home. Maybe I can ask my mom" Their mom said "she'll think about it" It's her way of avoiding heartbreak because she cant afford a blender.
My mum would say things like that to me just so I'd stop nagging her, and hopefully forget a few hours later that I asked.

Long time ago I used to go to primary school in Poland. It was free, however at one point the school approached parents asking for donations for new curtains (bright sunlight was disrupting morning classes). Nothing expensive. One of my friends' parents came across very offended that they were asked to donate such a small amount. I had never been inside their house then, and I probably wouldn't remember anyway if I had. But I did visit them 5 years later, and they didn't strike me as poor at all. In fact, my friend even got a motorcycle for his birthday.

That example alone doesn't prove or disprove anything of course. The point I'm trying to make is that I've known very few people who are genuinely so broke that they can't set a little money aside for things like a blender, which really is very inexpensive when compared to things such as TV, mobile phones, and almost any other electronics. It's a matter of priorities in most cases. If people prefer to prioritize home entertainment over healthy eating... then they themselves are to blame.

Most people who have these kinds of problems live in developing countries. I mean, even in Poland from my experience, most people can afford basic things.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Fat Shaming - January 31st 2017, 02:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
I don't know about the US, but in the UK you have street markets in almost every neighborhood (at least those I've been to). They sell vegetables, fruit etc. much cheaper than in supermarkets. I'm not really sure how well the argument that "healthy food is too expensive" holds up. In the case of restaurants it definitely does. In the case of food shopping... really? The porridge I buy is probably the cheapest breakfast cereal there is, although once I get into these habits I forget what the prices are. Just for comparison though:

- 1 medium big mac meal = £4

- 6 bananas (a bunch) = £1
- 4 lemons = £1
- 1 pineapple = £1
- 1 bunch of coriander = £0.80

I use the ingredients above to make myself so called "green smoothies". 1 banana, 1 lemon, half a pineapple, and 1 bunch of coriander (and water)... comes to less than £2 in total... and it's a big portion. Half the price of a Big Mac meal. Blenders can cost anywhere between £15 to as much as you're willing to pay. America probably sells them cheaper than the UK.

It'd be more accurate to say that healthy food often takes more time to prepare... and yes, lots of people with full time jobs are short on time. That's definitely the biggest problem I have.

Gyms cost money, yes. Running outside does not cost money. If running on your own feels too awkward, I'm sure there are people you can organize these sorts of things with online. Or if you have friends which have similar goals as yourself, join them.

Education on nutrition is abundant on the internet. I like to get a lot of my information from YouTube. I'm subscribed to this channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCad...ih1XLYg/videos



My mum would say things like that to me just so I'd stop nagging her, and hopefully forget a few hours later that I asked.

Long time ago I used to go to primary school in Poland. It was free, however at one point the school approached parents asking for donations for new curtains (bright sunlight was disrupting morning classes). Nothing expensive. One of my friends' parents came across very offended that they were asked to donate such a small amount. I had never been inside their house then, and I probably wouldn't remember anyway if I had. But I did visit them 5 years later, and they didn't strike me as poor at all. In fact, my friend even got a motorcycle for his birthday.

That example alone doesn't prove or disprove anything of course. The point I'm trying to make is that I've known very few people who are genuinely so broke that they can't set a little money aside for things like a blender, which really is very inexpensive when compared to things such as TV, mobile phones, and almost any other electronics. It's a matter of priorities in most cases. If people prefer to prioritize home entertainment over healthy eating... then they themselves are to blame.

Most people who have these kinds of problems live in developing countries. I mean, even in Poland from my experience, most people can afford basic things.

.
This isn't exactly accurate. First, comparing a green smoothie cost with a Big Mac is not particularly helpful. If you're looking at cost per calorie (or unit of energy a person needs) the Big Mac is cheaper per calorie. I'd show you, but we can't list calorie numbers in here, but I can ensure you that for the price, a Big Mac meal has the calorie needs for somebody's entire day, while a green smoothie is more expensive and would only give somebody a snack, maybe a small breakfast, for the bang-for-buck. Somebody who is having trouble affording food is going to choose the option that has more calories and protein so that they can have the energy to get through their day. So yes, the green smoothie is much healthier and is not that expensive, but the fact of the matter is for a person potentially working a large amount of hours and not making very much money, it's much easier said than done to have them choose to buy vegetables and other nutrient rich but calorie/protein lacking foods, and then having the money to feed a family with it. Can it be done? Yes. I knew many working class families growing up whose families budgeted and ensured their children got very healthy meals. But it's easy to "blame" people when in reality, it's not easy.

Then, you mention the idea that you can go for a run rather than pay for a gym membership. This is true, but in many parts of the United States, particularly in poor areas (such as the city of Detroit, where I live near), the infrastructure does not exist to do this. Some areas have no sidewalks, are dangerous to be out in certain areas in, and the weather simply does not allow for somebody to do this. Then, back to nutrition but in urban planning/infrastructure, some areas are known as "food deserts" where it's very difficult to get to a grocery store yet very easy to get to a gas station or fast food place where you can buy cheap but unhealthy food.

What I'm saying is that it's complicated. I work in the field of public health, and much of what I do for a living is making it easier for people to live healthier lives. Shaming people doesn't help people get outside and exercise or eat healthier. It just adds an additional stressor and makes people feel worse about what are usually crappy situations. Educating folks on nutritional needs and working with policy makers and urban planning to make cities more conducive for cheaper, healthier food is the most effective ways. Yeah, there are people in the best of circumstances that choose to eat unhealthy and not exercise and deal with those consequences. That isn't the reality for the majority-a lot of it is due to class and lack of knowledge or having bad information (what often comes from diet magazines instead of real nutrition classes).

So back to my point. Shaming people doesn't help the cause of making the world a healthier place, and makes people feel bad. So, what's the point?


I said to the sun, "Tell me about the big bang"
& the sun said “it hurts to become."
Andrea Gibson, "I Sing The Body Electric; Especially When My Power Is Out"

Last edited by Coffee.; January 31st 2017 at 10:41 PM.
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Re: Fat Shaming - January 31st 2017, 09:34 PM




Quote:
- 1 medium big mac meal = £4

- 6 bananas (a bunch) = £1
- 4 lemons = £1
- 1 pineapple = £1
- 1 bunch of coriander = £0.80



I am in the USA, in a big city. I can give you prices off the top of my head if you want.

In my neighborhood:
tomatoes- $3.25 per a pound
rotting tomatoes that taste nasty but bearable-$.99 or $.89 a pound
really rotting tomatoes= $0.79 a pound
-------
In the neighborhood I go to therapy:
ONE apple for I think it was $1.50 each
In another neighborhood that's super poor:
I couldn't find a single fruit! there's no fruit and vegetable grocery stores. There's supermarkets with processed frozen food, instant cup noodles, chips, lots of chips
A corner store with more chips and tabloid magazines lol. And maybe a can of tuna in the back that you have to be like really tiny to fit in that hallway.

My family consists of 5 people including myself, 6 if you count my cat. We have food stamp, so that's dandy. Sorta...I have to commute a 45 minute walk and back another 45 just to find decent food. It's stressful. I am lucky I live in a place with walkability. I dont have a car and we have a decent-ish public transportation. MANY parts of the USA dont have decent public transport or even at all. They use cars to get around because there's literally no sidewalk. I can only imagine if a person is disabled and cant drive or cant drive for another reason and needs to get around. Like it's been said, stress can increase risk for obesity and being isolated is really really stressful.
Like it's been said, there's also food deserts. Yes, this is a "developed" country.

Also in response to NHS: I'm not from the UK but I hear a lot of people talking about how bad it is. My friend had been on the waitlist for a really long time, she's in England.
Isn't the point of NHS is to deal with health issues? It's a great way to make someone feel horrible if they're told "your health problems is ruining the country's budget"
Like what?! When someone has cancer, everyone says "feel better honey" puts a ribbon or "you're so brave" or when someone gets into a car accident. Obesity is another health concern. So is addiction and smoking.

HIV/AIDS is also highly stigmatized, so it's reminding me of that. You should have wore a condom! dont go around having sex with everyone next time! etc
Like no. Just no.


Also I read this article a while back about something a little different but the chart is still relevant I think. This is why when someone is obese or anything different in their body you shouldnt shame them. Basically the person experiencing the pain, obesity, etc is in the middle and then it goes to the outer circle of loved ones, and more and more outer circles. Basically the random "lookie loos" who tell the obese person in the center of the circle that their problems are causing the country budget problems is very wrong in my opinion. Like so:




Last edited by ~Radio Flyer~; January 31st 2017 at 10:07 PM.
   
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Re: Fat Shaming - February 2nd 2017, 12:28 PM

Ok, I'm going to answer this in separate parts, because it got a little too messy when I lumped it together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
First, comparing a green smoothie cost with a Big Mac is not particularly helpful. If you're looking at cost per calorie (or unit of energy a person needs) the Big Mac is cheaper per calorie.
True, I've heard of this before. It's probably especially true in America, where I imagine that a McDonald's meal is comparatively cheaper than in the UK. But we're dealing in most cases with people who are consuming over the recommended daily limit anyway, so in this respect, one can argue that they are overpaying by consuming too many calories in the first place.

If you factor that the cost per calorie of unhealthy food is less, but also factor that people tend to over-consume on such diets in the first place... I don't know where it works out for sure, but I guess somewhere in the middle. I'm sure studies have been done on this, and I'm sure it varies between countries as well.

It's also worth mentioning that there are lots of different smoothie recipes. Some cost more, some cost less. Some use parts of vegetables which are generally discarded when cooking, or even thrown away by street market salesmen before putting their food items on display. If you talk with such salesmen, they might sell those parts to you at a greatly reduced price, or maybe even give them for free. Most greens also are seasonal, so buying something when it's out of season is stupid because you'll easy pay even 3x more sometimes. It takes a bit of research to find such recipes, and takes a bit of nagging at the market, but my point is, it doesn't have to be expensive. The "expensive" part for me is the time it often takes to prepare these things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
it's much easier said than done to have them choose to buy vegetables and other nutrient rich but calorie/protein lacking foods, and then having the money to feed a family with it. Can it be done? Yes. I knew many working class families growing up whose families budgeted and ensured their children got very healthy meals.
I'm glad you acknowledged this. It can be done. It's usually a matter of priorities (more on that at the end).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
But it's easy to "blame" people when in reality, it's not easy.
It's a shame that people receive this as "blaming". That's not what I'm trying to do. I'd argue that I'm trying to do the opposite. I'm trying to encourage people to take responsibility instead. This might sound to you like wordplay and beating about the bush, but I think there's a very big difference between those two actions.

Blaming, means pointing the finger at someone else and saying it's their fault.
Taking responsibility, means pointing the finger at yourself and acknowledging it's your fault.

Blaming people often evokes a defensive reaction in them, tends to shut them down, and achieve nothing. Now, I can't "take responsibility" on someone else's behalf, because I'm not them. It doesn't make sense. But I can at least try to encourage people to take responsibility. It is difficult to do this without it seeming like I'm blaming them, because in a certain sense, I am blaming them. But it's how this is done that matters.

Instead of saying to such people "it's your fault", I prefer to point out small things in their life which a person can change. For example, you suggested how it's difficult to get decent exercise in cold weather. Something which I do in winter, is turn down the heating in my room, and thereby force myself to do light exercise in 20-30 minute intervals to keep myself warm. My favorite exercise for this is just free squats. They use the most muscles, burn plenty of calories, and warm me up very effectively. And I can watch some TV show at the same time, or listen to an audiobook (or whatever else perhaps). You can do these squats at a fast pace, or a slow pace, depending on how capable you are. If it's too easy, you can even do jumping squats.

These are small changes, and it takes a little creative thinking to come up with them yourself, but there is also plenty of advice all over the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
So back to my point. Shaming people doesn't help the cause of making the world a healthier place, and makes people feel bad. So, what's the point?
Ok, just to clarify... I don't support shaming anyone, in most circumstances, regardless of what it is. I said this earlier. My response generally supports people to take more responsibility for themselves and their situation in life. As explained in this reply, this is not the same as "shaming" them. It's the difference between "blaming" and "taking responsibility". For the vast majority of people, there are least some things which they can change about themselves, their habits and behaviors to improve their own lifestyle. What I advocate, is encouraging such people to realize that this is the case, to help them see perhaps that they do have a choice, even when they initially thought that they do not. I would even say that it's meant to help such people feel "empowered", although I don't like that word because it's overused by too many people. It's a cliche.

This overlaps with ideology. Left wing philosophy generally argues that society is to be held accountable for people's problems. I argue that the individual should take responsibility, and I'm very firm about this. If it wasn't for this one precept, I'd probably find myself on the left of the political spectrum instead of the center. It's why I sometimes even get angry with people on the left, because I feel like they sometimes cause (through good intentions) more harm than good by telling people that "it's not your fault", which in a sense implies that there is "nothing you can do about it" (or at least that there is "very little you can do about it"), which in most cases is not true and even comes across as belittling (that's how I'd often receive it, if someone said something like it to me I'd probably go and do the opposite just out of spite). These differences need to be understood, and distinguished, and spoken about, even if it is uncomfortable to some.

Nonetheless, I'd be a fool to ignore that society is irrelevant in the role of people's lives. From what you say about "food deserts", poor urban planning, etc., it sounds like America might just have a culture problem with this. What that implies, is that society just isn't structured in a helpful way. Although the UK is regarded to have the worst obesity problems in Europe, so that leads me to think that the problems in both countries aren't entirely different.

Still, I maintain that in most cases it's a matter of priorities. Most people I've known in the UK, have the money to pay rent, internet, phone bills. Many have decent TV sets, relatively new smartphones, etc. Some do not. Most people whom I've known who really are struggling, tend to actually be people like migrants, or other minority groups... and ironically perhaps, I don't recall most of them having notable weight problems. I just checked this with google, and they agree: https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ps-labour-says

Homelessness is relevant to this discussion, because it's obviously a direct consequence of unaffordable living standards. And it seems like poverty and obesity aren't as strongly correlated as you suggest.

My point is, most people have something in their lives which they could compromise on, if they prioritized their own health more. Most people in developed countries are not so broken and damaged that they are completely powerless.

Ok. This reply took an hour, now I'm behind on work. Bye

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; February 2nd 2017 at 12:52 PM.
   
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