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Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - January 30th 2017, 03:53 PM

I have been watching BBC news for half the day today while working, and there are some convenient facts some of which have been avoided altogether.

- It's not a Muslim ban. It's a Ban on migration from 7 specific countries which had been designated by homeland security as posing terrorist threats.
- Green card holders are not barred from entering the US. The executive order never stated this. It in fact stated that green card holders are allowed, so wherever this misinterpretation happened, it's not Trump's fault.
- The executive order which Trump signed, was facilitated by Obama passing a bill during his presidency, naming the same countries which Trump now has done. This Bill, is what enabled Trump to ban migration without consulting congress.
- Obama temporarily banned migration from various Arab states during his presidency. No one uttered a word.
- The petition to ban Trump signed in the UK by "1 million" people, should not be trusted. A year ago when the UK voted to leave the EU, it was found that 40 000 signatures on a petition were false, and originated from the Vatican where only 800 citizens reside.

Do I agree with the ban? I'm not sure. I prefer to leave these things to the experts. I do however think that restricting migration from nations overrun with terrorism is a common sense approach. However, I do not think that such a measure on it's own fixes the problem. Passports can be faked, they can travel to Canada instead and cross the border from the North, etc.

I'd post sources for everything I said, but I don't have time. It's all in google.

.


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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - January 30th 2017, 05:48 PM

Quote:
Green card holders are not barred from entering the US. The executive order never stated this. It in fact stated that green card holders are allowed, so wherever this misinterpretation happened, it's not Trump's fault.
Up until 3 hours ago, all the news sources that I've seen said that green card holders were included in this executive order. I believe it had been a back and forth and there was a reversal of that segment at the end. Based on what I'm seeing, there were 10s of thousands of people participating in protests at airports and the streets which did end up influencing the temporary hold. Also Green card holders were detained, some still have not been released. This terror and human rights violations, not a great way to protect people. Trump reminds me of an abusive parent who defends his actions by claiming it was helpful and all done for their own safety. No. it. isn't. Even the federal judges said that this executive order was illegal.
   
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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - January 30th 2017, 08:08 PM

Originally green card holders were also not allowed through, but this was changed recently and it stated that in the article I read about it.

The reason it is called a muslim ban is because the seven countries that he has banned are muslim majority countries, however he uses the justification of 9/11 to defend the ban even though he didn't actually ban the countries that the terrorists who did 9/11 came from.

Honestly I think the funniest thing out of the whole ban is that Iran decided to go ban Americans from travelling there in retaliation to Trump's ban.

The ban in it's entirety just states, refugees are banned for 120 days, although from Syria it's indefinitely. From the other six countries, it is for 90 days, including valid visa holders and legal residents.

It's understandable people would be upset about this honestly, but let's be real going to Canada would be a much better option than America anyway.


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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - January 30th 2017, 10:16 PM

The OP did a pretty good job with summarizing the misinformation regarding the "ban." Its amazing how so many people think Trump choose those countries simply because they are muslim majority, yet fail to realize the the Obama Administration actually picked out those 7 countries, not Trump.

Do I agree with the ban? Yes, just look at the situation in Europe. Even the ultra-liberal European countries are fighting against Syrian migrants now. There are clearly negatives that come from accepting migrants in the current fashion, so a pause and reform seems like common sense.

Do I agree with the implementation of the ban? No. There should have been advance warning to travelers, immigration officials, and the general public. If Trump would of given a two week advance warning before the ban was implemented, then there would be far less controversy regarding it. However, I guess this plays to Trump's persona of a man of action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophrosyne View Post

It's understandable people would be upset about this honestly, but let's be real going to Canada would be a much better option than America anyway.
I just wish all those celebrities would go ahead and move to Canada like they said they would. The ironic thing, is that Canada has stricter immigration policies than the USA.

I wonder how well the Iranian ban of Americans is going. There has to be like, one or two people who are really bummed out they can't visit Iran anymore .


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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - January 31st 2017, 03:32 AM

It definitely seemed like a Muslim ban the way Trump talked about banning Muslims on the campaign trail. In reality though, if it was just a Muslim ban, it probably would have included Indonesia.
If they're gonna ban 'dangerous' countries, why didn't they ban Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia is the ISIS that made it. Notice that Trump (and Obama) didn't sanction any of the other human rights violators in the region because they are 1. Our allies, or 2. A Trump business interest.


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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - January 31st 2017, 11:53 AM

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Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
It definitely seemed like a Muslim ban the way Trump talked about banning Muslims on the campaign trail. In reality though, if it was just a Muslim ban, it probably would have included Indonesia.
If they're gonna ban 'dangerous' countries, why didn't they ban Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia is the ISIS that made it. Notice that Trump (and Obama) didn't sanction any of the other human rights violators in the region because they are 1. Our allies, or 2. A Trump business interest.
There are lots of people who are unhappy that Saudi Arabia wasn't banned.

I don't think Saudi Arabia was on Obama's original list of countries, and there are political complications, most notably America's so called "alliance" with Saudi Arabia. And they sell oil. etc

This could also be said for other countries which were banned, that the strategy to be used on Saudi Arabia requires a slightly finer touch.

Saudi Arabia can probably bankrupt countries just by raising oil prices.

What business interests has Trump got in the region? I thought these conflicts of interest were dealt with already.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 1st 2017, 02:30 AM

Well first off, I don't believe any countries should be automatically banned from the US. The US has the most vigorous vetting process in the world. We can weed out terrorists, definitely.
Here is a video that I feel basically gets this right. Definitely worth watching.
Kyle Kalinski is my spirit animal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_ljDhiXjGU

Also: over 40 years, NOT ONE PERSON from ANY of these countries has come to the US and performed a fatal terrorist attack.
And no, Trump hasn't removed his business interests. For example, Trump still has active business interests in the UAE and Turkey. Totally unconstitutional.
Another thing, we're BOMBING most of these countries. The least we could do is say, "sorry miss, we blew up your house on accident during a drone raid, here's a place where you and your kids can live." For other countries who are not bombing these countries, I can definitely see them asking why they have to take refugees in, but the US started all of this in some form or another. The least we can do is help the people whose lives we destroyed.


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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 1st 2017, 04:51 AM

edited

I haven't spent much time on this forum for a reason, considering leaving honestly, but let me say this. Chuck Shumer and Barack Obama, two of the most powerful Democrats in the country, suggested prior to the election that reform and a possible pause on immigration from certain countries may be necessary. So it seems like the US system isn't as perfect as you may think it is. I really see nothing wrong with a pause on immigration that has done nothing but proven determental for European countries, and looks soon approaching for the USA.


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Last edited by Melancholia.; February 1st 2017 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Not really related to the debate itself.
   
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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 1st 2017, 05:11 AM

edited

For what its worth, I didn't support all of Obama's agenda, and I don't support corporate Democrats. So no, I think their idea was a bad idea.


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Last edited by Melancholia.; February 1st 2017 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Not really related to the debate itself
   
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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 2nd 2017, 03:29 AM

The Muslim Ban has cause so much protests where I am that protestors are now asking the Canadian Government to list Ottawa (Capitol of Canada and other locations) to be a sanctuary for those who are unable to go back home to the USA because of this ban. Source: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/o...nney-1.3961539

The other day we had protests make a human arm chain around the US Embassy. Source: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/o...assy-1.3954640

The reason I am linking those links and mentioning it is that Canadians are really upset and it's caused this massive uproar here to the point there is some form of gathering or protest about this ban. Many Canadians who have duel Citizenship to the US who travel for work which there place of birth isn't in Canada but that of countries where the ban is in affect. Many people are going to the media to express how it's affecting them, their families, their job, who they are, that they are scared.

I don't follow it that much but I read or see at least two headlines about it each day now, it's on the radio a lot as well.

That, there's good people who are offering those who can't go back to the US they are helping them with a place to stay safely.

That I think is how Canada is meant to be. Helping and coming up with things for others in need.

I am not sure what other Countries are doing as I don't read those news outlets only my local news which so happens to be the Capitol of Canada.

I can't give an honest opinion of if I agree or disagree to the ban. I am aware everyone is reacting to the ban on all varying levels.

One thing that I am scared would happen is the banned countries would lash out to the US and that isn't fair to anyone.


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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 2nd 2017, 03:40 PM

Only thing I can say about this is calling it a "Muslim Ban" is factually incorrect. If it was a Muslim ban, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and other countries would've been banned too (40 countries in total. 7 of them isn't a whole lot)


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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 3rd 2017, 04:44 AM

I still think it IS an effort at a Muslim ban, but they couldn't ban the other countries because they are our economic and regional allies. They also don't have an excuse for countries like Indonesia or the Maldives. But Trump SAID that he would give priority to Christians over other groups when he was on the Christian Broadcast Network. He said the Christians there are "being treated horribly". That's true, but its also ridiculous because ISIS is going after EVERYBODY who doesn't agree with them, including more moderate Muslims. Thats part of the reason why there are Muslim refugees in the first place.
Another reason I think it is an attempted Muslim ban is that we've never had a fatal terrorist attack in America from any of those countries in the last forty years. Not even Iran. So there's no actual justification for doing this, especially because we have the strictest refugee vetting in the world. So in my mind, he either really dislikes refugees, he's a horrible diplomat, he's trying to keep some Muslims out, or he's just stupid and he's listening to his advisors like Steve Bannon and James Mattis, who are known to be unreasonable, hawkish people on the topic of the Middle East. Regardless, his quote about Christian refugees seems pretty telling.
If I was president, I'd take all the refugees. The US has more than enough of everything including money, food, and security. I'd keep them in (nice, humane) camps in isolated areas like Wyoming and vet them. It takes on average a year to vet Syrian refugees in the US, so I'd have English teachers to help them for when they are ready to be assimilated into society. There are probably a couple holes to be poked in this idea, but Im not exactly an immigration expert. Also keep in mind though that 80% of the refugees are women and children so I see this as pretty low risk.


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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 3rd 2017, 11:19 AM

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Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
I still think it IS an effort at a Muslim ban, but they couldn't ban the other countries because they are our economic and regional allies. They also don't have an excuse for countries like Indonesia or the Maldives. But Trump SAID that he would give priority to Christians over other groups when he was on the Christian Broadcast Network. He said the Christians there are "being treated horribly". That's true, but its also ridiculous because ISIS is going after EVERYBODY who doesn't agree with them, including more moderate Muslims. Thats part of the reason why there are Muslim refugees in the first place.
Another reason I think it is an attempted Muslim ban is that we've never had a fatal terrorist attack in America from any of those countries in the last forty years. Not even Iran. So there's no actual justification for doing this, especially because we have the strictest refugee vetting in the world. So in my mind, he either really dislikes refugees, he's a horrible diplomat, he's trying to keep some Muslims out, or he's just stupid and he's listening to his advisors like Steve Bannon and James Mattis, who are known to be unreasonable, hawkish people on the topic of the Middle East. Regardless, his quote about Christian refugees seems pretty telling.
If I was president, I'd take all the refugees. The US has more than enough of everything including money, food, and security. I'd keep them in (nice, humane) camps in isolated areas like Wyoming and vet them. It takes on average a year to vet Syrian refugees in the US, so I'd have English teachers to help them for when they are ready to be assimilated into society. There are probably a couple holes to be poked in this idea, but Im not exactly an immigration expert. Also keep in mind though that 80% of the refugees are women and children so I see this as pretty low risk.
You're making a good point about the moderate Muslims going to the west to flee from ISIS. They could also flee to Dubai or other Muslim country too, especially if they don't accept western values. But if they accept western values, they deserve to be educated on those values too next to the English language and also educate them how to find a job or education

But if you will take all refugees, what if there is a part that is pro-Sharia? What if some are even ISIS insiders? What if a group of Muslims rape women of your country just because they don't wear a hijab or attack gay people? What will you do about that? Getting big brother style vetting in those isolated camps can go a long way with that


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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 3rd 2017, 12:44 PM

Kuwait (a Muslim majority country), scraps VISAs from 5 other Muslim majority countries (Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran):

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/56932649.cms



So... is that also a Muslim ban?

If a majority Muslim country, implements a Muslim ban, does it disappear from the map?

If a person were to eat himself, would he double in size, or disappear entirely?

Has anyone ever been as far decided even go want to do look more like?

.


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Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 3rd 2017, 01:35 PM

Hello,

Here's a slightly edited 'copy and paste' of what I posted on my Facebook page.

Perception is truth. If people FEEL more secure - that's basically all that matters. And it's why we lock our doors at night. Do those locked doors really keep bad people out? No. Fact is - more Americans support the temporary ban than do not. Why is that? Are they all stupid? Are they all horrible, miserable, racist bastards? [As some on the 'left' would have you believe] No. I'll tell you why. Because President Obama failed MISERABLY to give the impression that HE was keeping Americans safe. Every time there was a terrorist attack - at 'home' or aboard - he wouldn't acknowledge people's concerns. He would SHAME them for being 'Islamophobic'. Most Americans don't give a shit about what this 'ban' might look like. They just don't want their 10 year old son to be raped while swimming in a public swimming pool or to find out that their family was wiped out by some terrorist driving a gigantic moving van through a crowd of people. Trump is making it possible for MILLIONS of Americans to THINK that they are going to be safer. And that - and that alone - is reason enough for the ban.

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Re: Trump and his "Muslim Ban" - February 3rd 2017, 10:00 PM

Best thing ever


it takes a strong man to deny whats right in front of him and if the truth is undeniable you create your own
   
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