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USA attacks Syria - April 7th 2017, 08:12 AM

The US hit a Syrian airbase with tomahawk missiles today. This is of course, a terrible idea. There are at least 8 separate actors that I know of in Syria's civil war: Syria, ISIS, Al Qaeda (named al Nussra in this case), Russia, the Kurds, Turkey (I think?), the Free Syrian Army, and the US. The US' interests aren't compatible with any of theirs. This is an extremely dangerous confrontation that pits the US against Russia, who is allied with Assad.
The US attack was based on a Syrian attack of Sarin Gas that poisoned (and killed) hundreds of people. However, Syria (Assad) is winning the war. He has absolutely no reason to do an attack with chemical weapons. I've also read that Assad gave up the chemical weapons they had (sure, they could've had more). Assad said they didn't do it (sure, maybe he lied). But I have a feeling this is Iraq all over again, when the media yelled "weapons of mass destruction" repeatedly. Is there absolute proof that Assad did it? I keep seeing accusations but maybe I just missed the proof part.
Am I onto something by thinking the US is being dragged into another Iraq? Or am I just crazy?


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 7th 2017, 10:24 AM

Personally,
This just sounds like the set up for WW3. The US goes against Syria and Russia, NATO called in, Middle east gets screwed for no fault of their own, China goes anti US, leading to India and Pakistan going against China, Australia and New Zealand side with NATO.
Thats what I think honestly.
I really don't know beyond that. There is potential for diplomacy since Putin and Trump seem to kinda get along so perhaps thats the saving grace.


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 7th 2017, 12:55 PM

Trump is giving me a headache.

I don't think this is paving the way for WW3 (people have been threatening WW3 since WW2 ended), but it feels like this decision was taken without thinking it through to the end. That's just an opinion obviously. It almost looks like Trump did as a way of saying "look, I'm not on Putin's payroll", but that's just me speculating. I'm sure there's a bit more to it than that. I've already heard theories that there were plans being made for this sort of strike for several months already. I have to see how this develops. It's a very new story still.

I don't like the idea of letting people suffer anywhere, but as I've said before in another thread, things can almost always be worse, and it's naive to expect America, Russia, UK, or any country on Earth to inherently act in the interest of a foreign nation.

These people need to take care of their own problems. America can't fix it. At best, send over aid, food supplies when a crisis becomes critical, but going to war with governments under the banner of "help the civilians" is generally really counterproductive for the people you think you're "helping".

Even if the outcome is productive in the short-term, the trend is that you end up being the scapegoat for anything, literally anything that ever goes wrong in the region in the future. People in the region will always see you as an outsider, and people everywhere like blaming outsiders for problems that even they themselves caused... which is precisely the reason why people need to take care of their own shit and build up their own lives. This way, it nurtures a feeling of accountability and responsibility over their own lives. It builds independent strength, instead of being co-dependent on other people/nations who ultimately act in their own self-interests.

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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 7th 2017, 02:11 PM

In a nutshell: Trump did the worst possible thing when Syria has done absolutely nothing to the United States! Stupidest move in the history of the human race? I would have to say this tops a lot of things.
   
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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 7th 2017, 04:00 PM

This is even dumber than Iraq. We don't even have 9/11 to falsely hide behind. ALSO, we've been killing hundreds of civilians with drone strikes already! Thousands overall. Hate to sound callous, but whats 250 more people?


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 7th 2017, 08:22 PM

He did it to supposedly avenge the deaths of innocent people, but it's no mystery that he's completely CLUELESS. He's just opened up a can of worms and God knows what's going to happen next. What makes common sense to him is BAD diplomacy. There was absolutely no reason to put us in the middle of this. I'm afraid we'll be the next target now.


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 7th 2017, 08:26 PM

I want the civilians of Syria (not any of the terrorist organizations) to tell US/Trump to back off. This is someone they can stand up to and say back off, they don't need his ridiculous support. What they need is to have their refuges allowed in the United States. I'm not a Syrian but I am angry for the civilians over there.
   
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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 7th 2017, 09:23 PM

I'm still collecting all my thoughts about this, they've been somewhat tainted with emotion. My partner is a US Marine and while his job is not anything around combat, he is technically deployable. All Marines are riflemen first. I am also moving to a Marine base where I may meet folks who would be sent to a war if something more long-term starts or who may watch their own partners be sent. So regardless on my own feelings about conflict, war in general, what's going on with the Syrian civil war, etc, the last couple of days have been influenced selfishly on how this may impact me directly.

I do not side with the Assad regime in what they are doing to their citizens, nor do I support the middle east and Russia's siding with them. However, I have not done enough research on the efficacy of the United States mettling. I'm currently unsure how this helps the citizens. I already tend to side against war if avoidable and have been outspoken on my disagreement with Obama using drones in the middle east during his presidency, but this seems particularly ill advised.

I'm just hoping that there is some strategy behind the scenes that I don't know about (more faith in General Mattis than Donald Trump) and that we don't get further involved and/or some type of negotiation is able to happen. Currently, I just feel hopelessly scared for my partner, and feel that no matter what, we're just sending more destruction and chaos to a land that has already endeared so much. Ugh.


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 8th 2017, 05:22 AM

In my ideal universe, we'd just leave forever, send humanitarian aid, and take in refugees (isolating them in the middle of Wyoming or some other personless place during vetting). But if I was gonna pick a side, I'd choose Assad. He sucks, but the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, and at least there was some semblance of order with him in charge. And we've already seen what happens when you tear down an established government in the middle east, terrorists tear the country to pieces trying to take over the government. But yeah, I do hope General Mattis uses his brain on this one. He's the only Trump cabinet appointment that is a good fit for their job, and from his reputation, he genuinely cares about our soldiers. So I do hope he makes good decisions on this. From everything I've heard though, after removing Bannon from the National Security Council, the Council is almost completely full of crooked neocons. Yes, slight praise for Bannon believe it or not, he and the rest of the alt-right seem to be pissed about this decision.
And it definitely pisses me off that we're going to destroy somebody else's country in the name of HELPING them, and then we're not gonna take in the people we're trying to help. That doesnt make any sense. The US has an extremely stringent vetting process that usually takes at least a year, so the risk of a terrorist slipping through the cracks is minimal. Even if they did, what's a few terrorist attacks compared to hundreds of thousands of people dying in the middle east? (There's me making somewhat callous statements again)


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 8th 2017, 07:30 AM

Ive heard that the sarin gas attack might be a false flag by the White Helmets and what does Assad have to gain from this especially when he is winning from ISIS? And to give Assad the benefit of the doubt and believe that he has no chemical weapons, who had them then in the first place?

Trump bought into it, false flag or not and didn't have to strike it. But theres a silver lining: the attack was on a chemical weapon base and had minimal casualties. Whether this turns out to be Iraq 2.0, WW3 or actually nothing is the big question


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 8th 2017, 07:33 AM

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The US has an extremely stringent vetting process that usually takes at least a year, so the risk of a terrorist slipping through the cracks is minimal. Even if they did, what's a few terrorist attacks compared to hundreds of thousands of people dying in the middle east? (There's me making somewhat callous statements again)
Globalism (At current form), not even once. Pretty asinine statement if you ask me


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 8th 2017, 07:37 PM

Ok. You go ahead and think that, but we're causing the problem, and the least we can do is help out the people we're screwing.
Question: why is globalism INHERENTLY bad? I understand why some aspects of globalism are bad. For example, the Trans-Pacific Partnership would have basically established a corporatocracy for every country involved, and the US would be importing our goods from the cheapest country (probably Malaysia, which tolerates slavery). NAFTA was a horrible deal, it screwed over American workers all over the midwest by shipping factory jobs to Mexico, hence one of the biggest reasons Trump won the Rust Belt. But taking in immigrants and refugees is what America has been doing since its inception and we were the greatest country in the world until probably the 1970s. The biggest groups of immigrants are always treated like garbage and they're blamed for all the problems, but then you look around and realize they aren't that bad. For example: illegal immigrants (mostly from Mexico and Central America) are blamed for high crime despite having a slightly lower crime rate than the legal population. Taking in refugees, especially after vetting them, would not cause our society to collapse. Thats an aspect of globalism Im fine with.


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 8th 2017, 07:41 PM

I have one thing to say on all this we say we will help (any country this applies to) but how do we help the people of syria and other war torn countries? we send more bombs and air strikes - how does that help? how does sending more bombs and air strikes to a country torn apart by war help? what does that solve? I don't know the answer but meeting violence with violence never solved a thing.



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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 8th 2017, 08:25 PM

My 2 cents. There will NEVER be a World War 3. There cannot be one due to the development of atomic weapons during World War 2 (Notice: WW2 occurred shortly after WW1, and no WW3 resulted of 1941-1991 when in all logical sense, there should have been one). No matter how tense things get between countries, they know the outcome: annihilation of our species. It's not even a matter of annihilating a country. The use of atomic weapons creates what's known as a nuclear winter. These nuclear winters have the same mechanics as those which lead to the 2 greatest mass extinctions ever known. Politics may be warmongers, but they're not the complete morons we give them credit for being.

At most this will result in another Cold War. In fact, the recipe is exactly the same. Fund lesser developed countries to fight wars, but never be directly involved. Meanwhile, propose propaganda and the like to increase the development of nuclear weapons to maintain a monopoly. If anything this will be a Cold War. Notice that we indirectly attacked Russia with this missile strike, but not directly. These are the same tactics used in the 60s. That is, the U.S. will never directly fight any other developed country like Russia, China, Japan, etc. because they can't. Not because they don't want to. They can only do so through indirect means: thus you have the middle east conflict. Check out your Cold War facts.

My BIGGEST issue that I have with this is that 5 months ago all these "pro-lifer" Trump supporters REFUSED to take Syrian refugees. And now look what's happening. So much for being pro-life. The biggest PLUS of all this is that Trumps approval ratings with the alt-right are going down. This, hopefully, lessens his chance of re-election since those idiots believe the 1700s ideology of non-interventionism is a viable solution in the 21st century.

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But taking in immigrants and refugees is what America has been doing since its inception and we were the greatest country in the world until probably the 1970s.
This isn't true. Our current America was founded by a bunch of white Anglo-Saxons who took this country by force from the Natives. Then used it to avoid taxation so that they could make profits while suppressing the poor. This has been the American standard since our foundation. We have always been a racist nation. Look at how we've treated the Natives and blacks over our entire history. Look at how we treated Cubans and Filipinos during the late 1800s to early 1920s. Look at the Chinese Exclusion Act. Look at how our country threw Japanese-American citizens into concentration camps in Hawaii and California during WWII. We are not accepting of immigrants. We are accepting of WHITE immigrants. The only reason we were "great" was because we abused laborers in factories, and became an industrial giant by doing so allowing our economy to boom. Not to mention big stick policy and the like. Our history isn't that wonderful when you reflect on why we were "great." Irregardless, it's time for everyone to wake up and realize that nationalism is scary and useless. Humans succeed together, or they fail together. It's time to unite.

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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 9th 2017, 01:33 AM

I'm lead to believe we can't afford education or healthcare or other federally funded programs but here we are launching off $49 million worth of missiles for a civil mess that we shouldn't be involved with right now




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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 9th 2017, 03:15 AM

I agree with a lot of the stuff you said about the Cold War, and for the most part, I agree with you that the biggest countries in the world have no reason to launch non-stop nukes to destroy each other. However, that was back when at least the US and USSR had logical leaders. The US just proved that they have no problem electing the least qualified person in the country to handle nukes. So until we start electing people who can at least think clearly, yeah, Im worried.

I fucked up the quote, but I'm quoting ThisWillDestroyYou.
This isn't true. Our current America was founded by a bunch of white Anglo-Saxons who took this country by force from the Natives. Then used it to avoid taxation so that they could make profits while suppressing the poor. This has been the American standard since our foundation. We have always been a racist nation. Look at how we've treated the Natives and blacks over our entire history. Look at how we treated Cubans and Filipinos during the late 1800s to early 1920s. Look at the Chinese Exclusion Act. Look at how our country threw Japanese-American citizens into concentration camps in Hawaii and California during WWII. We are not accepting of immigrants. We are accepting of WHITE immigrants. The only reason we were "great" was because we abused laborers in factories, and became an industrial giant by doing so allowing our economy to boom. Not to mention big stick policy and the like. Our history isn't that wonderful when you reflect on why we were "great." Irregardless, it's time for everyone to wake up and realize that nationalism is scary and useless. Humans succeed together, or they fail together. It's time to unite.

Occasionally I find it helpful to remind myself of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PN5JJDh78I[/quote]

I overgeneralized a ton, absolutely. But what I meant was that at most times from 1900 until the 1970s, compared to everyone else, emphasis on the word compared, we were the greatest country in the world. Im not sure if you were referring to me as a nationalist, but you arent gonna find a nationalist in me at all whatsoever. Nationalism is brainless tribalism. In fact, if I'm arguing for multiculturalism, thats almost inherently NOT nationalistic. I know our country has done a ton of racist stuff, absolutely. But the US is also a blend of a lot of different cultures like most of the European cultures, some of the African cultures, Hispanic cultures, Asian cultures, etc. Despite the people not getting along all the time, blending the cultures together has done a lot of great things for the culture of the US (example, here's an interesting video summary of another video about how boringly Puritan the US would be without African influence on music, dance, religion, and the arts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeBPKyNar5Q). So yeah, I know what you mean, and I did make a big overgeneralization, but when everybody DOES unite and stops making conflict over petty shit, its beautiful.


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 9th 2017, 03:22 AM

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I'm lead to believe we can't afford education or healthcare or other federally funded programs but here we are launching off $49 million worth of missiles for a civil mess that we shouldn't be involved with right now
Yes. This. Also, we have money to launch $49 million dollars worth of rockets and yet we can't afford clean fucking water for Flint, Michigan.


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 9th 2017, 07:05 AM

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Ok. You go ahead and think that, but we're causing the problem, and the least we can do is help out the people we're screwing.
Question: why is globalism INHERENTLY bad? I understand why some aspects of globalism are bad. For example, the Trans-Pacific Partnership would have basically established a corporatocracy for every country involved, and the US would be importing our goods from the cheapest country (probably Malaysia, which tolerates slavery). NAFTA was a horrible deal, it screwed over American workers all over the midwest by shipping factory jobs to Mexico, hence one of the biggest reasons Trump won the Rust Belt. But taking in immigrants and refugees is what America has been doing since its inception and we were the greatest country in the world until probably the 1970s. The biggest groups of immigrants are always treated like garbage and they're blamed for all the problems, but then you look around and realize they aren't that bad. For example: illegal immigrants (mostly from Mexico and Central America) are blamed for high crime despite having a slightly lower crime rate than the legal population. Taking in refugees, especially after vetting them, would not cause our society to collapse. Thats an aspect of globalism Im fine with.
To me, globalism (In current form) is more bureaucracy for native people and, in the example of Europe and most recently, Sweden, are too welcoming to refugees without proper vetting and/or consequences of the crime they commit (Sweden a few days ago might be a bad example so another example is the Maria Ladenburger situation)

It is also the unwillingness to fight for your own countries values. I get that nationalism failed big time and that no western country should feel superior to the other, but at least fight for your rights and values and what makes your country different from the others. If I am wrong, please explain, but this is what I think of when I think of current form globalism and until the anti-national idendity trait is gone with the bureaucracy I don't support globalism


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 9th 2017, 08:13 PM

My dad is now on social media praising this and using it to insult Obama at the same time. That by not intervening, Obama was okay with genocide so Trump did the right thing! WTF Dad?! One of the many reasons we don't discuss politics, or anything for that matter. We're needlessly making enemies and a lot of other countries already thought we were stupid. Not to mention we're a target now. I don't know if dad's just embracing party lines or if he's just being an idiot. UGH


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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 10th 2017, 12:54 AM

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My dad is now on social media praising this and using it to insult Obama at the same time. That by not intervening, Obama was okay with genocide so Trump did the right thing! WTF Dad?! One of the many reasons we don't discuss politics, or anything for that matter. We're needlessly making enemies and a lot of other countries already thought we were stupid. Not to mention we're a target now. I don't know if dad's just embracing party lines or if he's just being an idiot. UGH
My dad is the same way. Except he found out j posted something on social media. I wrote a couple of setences about how there might be a retaliation and that Syria deserves self determination. Since he found that out my family been really harsh on me and this bloody hurts. Enough for me to go in hiding. Sigh. He even said Trump made the 'perfect' move
   
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Re: USA attacks Syria - April 13th 2017, 10:54 PM

There still is absolutely no bottom line on the motives behind the missile strike. Some theories I've heard of:
  1. To upstage Obama, by making Trump look like a "man of action, not words". Context: Obama threatened Assad several times over the use of chemical weapons, and ultimately did nothing when Assad ignored him. Trump has an inflated ego, so this is very likely, especially that the missile strike was preceded with various statements from the White House directly bashing Obama's failure to act.
  2. Trump wants to appear "unpredictable and dangerous". If so, this is a two-edged sword. It may well intimidate certain potentially "hostile" nations into backing down, but it can also potentially freak out other nations and incline them to back away from getting too close to America. It appears however that the missile strike actually is supported by most nations who spoke out on it.
  3. To dissipate the "Russia conspiracy theories"... although these were dissipating by themselves.
  4. Political influences of the so called "deep state", that pressured Trump into launching the missiles, in order to keep the military-industrial complex on his side. If this is true, it's bad, because it means they will be pushing for even more intervention.
  5. Other political influences / pressures. Trump is trying to reach out to the Democrats, after the Republicans let him down on the whole "TrumpCare" vote in congress. This is one way to do this.
  6. There is a theory that Trump's daughter managed to evoke an emotional / irrational response from Trump over the killing of civilians. I really doubt this is true, but I've seen this theory in too many places to ignore it here. People rarely make it as high up as Trump has done, by allowing their emotions to get the better of them.
  7. An interesting theory, not covered in many places, which is one that also occurred to me... is that this was a "show of strength" towards China and North Korea. I do not find it coincidental that Trump chose to launch missiles on the same day the president of China visited the White House. How effective this will actually be in "persuading" the Chinese to do something about little Kim John in his schoolboy shorts, we will have to wait and see.
My point is... there are several relatively obvious possible reasons, and probably many others that aren't obvious. I don't think any of those reasons really are in the interest of Syria. It's all either Trump's self-interests, America's interests, or the establishment's interests. From this perspective, the missile strike may well have been a perfectly rational move, for Trump, for America, and for the establishment. Not for Syria, or any civilians in the region.


As I also said earlier, the missile strike by itself, isn't actually a very big deal in the greater scheme of things. The state-owned Syrian news reported 7 deaths as a result of the missile strike (if you chose to believe them, which I simply don't). More significantly perhaps, InfoWars reported that a nearby town inhabited mostly by Christians, has been overrun by Jihadists due to Assad's airbase being unable to defend it. If this is true, the mainstream news appears reluctant to devote any articles or screen-time to it, and although I don't consider InfoWars to be the most trustworthy news source, I do not understand why they would lie about this.


It appears that the missile strike by itself offers more gains than losses (by for example "firming up" alliances in the West and persuading China to discipline North Korea a bit better), assuming it doesn't pave the way for some sort of more sustained military intervention, which I don't believe would be to any ordinary person's benefit at all, whether they're in America or Syria or China or anywhere else.



.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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