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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 4th 2017, 11:11 PM

http://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendme...urity-gun-ban/

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017...curity-gun-ban

I am not usually a person who votes or supports Republican beliefs, but I am very happy with the decision our Republican Congress has made to roll back a very hurtful law targeting the disabled.

The Obama administration proposed a law that would bar social security beneficiaries who need another person to manage their finances from possessing a firearm. This law was in part motivated by the Sandy Hook tragedy, which was committed by a person with Asperger syndrome--(though the law would actually not have applied in this case anyways, as the perpetrator was not a beneficiary)- despite the fact Asperger's is not associated with violence.

As a person who has mental health diagnoses, I think this proposal was pretty offensive- people with disabilities are NOT the main gun problem in the America. It seems like a huge leap to say that a person not capable of managing their finances is incapable of being responsible with a gun. There are many disabilities that can cause problems managing finances ( (severe mobility issues, dyscalculia (math "dyslexia") , brain injury (TBI), executive function problems, senility, etc.) --these don't necessarily mean a person is dangerous--and it is very irresponsible for our government to suggest so. In addition to being a pretty big attack on the freedom of the elderly and disabled, the law helps worsen the already existing stigma that people with mental health problems or disabilities face.

This is an example of how "political correctness" seems to only apply to certain groups. People get angry if someone suggests a link between Islam and terrorism, or race and violent crime--but for some reason, creating laws that stigmatize the disabled and mentally ill is seen as ok.

Mental illness and disabilities are fairly common. Plenty of people need psychiatric help sometime during their life and many people may need help managing their finances. Most people with these conditions are not dangerous and the link between the two is not that strong (if any). It makes no sense to deny second amendment rights to such a large group of people.

As it is right now, only mentally ill/disabled people who have been ruled incompetent in a court of law or have been involuntarily committed to a psych hospital (for more than 72 hours I think) can have their gun rights restricted (as well as felons of course).

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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 4th 2017, 11:35 PM

Yeah, I do agree here. We always seem to stigmatize the mentally ill and blame them for crimes and you're also right that there are other reasons why someone may need their finances managed that don't make them a dangerous criminal.


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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 5th 2017, 01:40 AM

I guess they were trying to say that if someone doesn't have the intellectual or physical capacity to manage money, then they shouldn't be trusted with a gun, whether they're considered "dangerous" or not. In theory, I see where it's coming from, but I agree with them rolling it back. A disability shouldn't interfere with a person's rights unless it's an extenuating circumstance and like you said, people with disabilities probably aren't contributing the the gun violence issues in a major way anyway. It's just more proof that people who make laws aren't always informed enough to make the best decisions.


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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 5th 2017, 02:03 AM

I would've kept the law, not necessarily because I agree with the criteria they set up, but mostly because I hate how few restrictions we have in general. Personally, I'd have different criteria for the restrictions; anger issues, depression, schizophrenia, BPD, stuff like that, but not necessarily the financial management criteria. What if someone just had dyslexia or was illiterate? I don't think being able to manage finances is necessarily a good indicator of whether somebody can handle a gun responsibly. However, if I had to choose between having the law and not having the law, I would've kept it because our country has way too many guns to begin with. I also despise the NRA, so anything that makes them unhappy makes me happy (but I admit that spite isn't a good reason to make public policy).
I would do universal background checks, absolutely. I would definitely ban guns for some mental illnesses, but I think whether or not you can manage finances is an arbitrary reason to discriminate against people for gun ownership. I would still make it harder to get a gun license in general.
Kind of ironic though that the Republicans always say "we have to do more for mental health" right after a school shooting, then they cut mental healthcare and relax the gun laws. The Democratic Party sucks, but the Republican establishment is full of hypocritical scum.


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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 5th 2017, 03:01 AM

I agree yet disagree about this. I think there should be restrictions for people with schizophrenia, anger issues, and other issues that cause people to be irrationally violent but I don't think you should deem ALL disabled people as unfit for owning a gun. Maybe some kind of test or background check/health records or would that be a violation of privacy of sorts? This kind of topic always leaves me feeling unsure about how to handle gun protections.




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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 5th 2017, 04:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MWF View Post
I would've kept the law, not necessarily because I agree with the criteria they set up, but mostly because I hate how few restrictions we have in general. Personally, I'd have different criteria for the restrictions; anger issues, depression, schizophrenia, BPD, stuff like that,\
Because we all know everyone with depression and BPD commits suicide right? How would you define "anger issues", and how would you enforce this when we have pretty strict HIPPA privacy laws in place? You can go to the doctor, be diagnosed with several severe mental health problems, and nobody would ever know.

Also things like depression can also be somewhat situational. It isn't just about a chemical imbalance --though that's part of it. It has been proven that unemployment, disability, etc. contributes to depression. So you are proposing we take firearm rights from someone just because they are depressed due to say unemployment --mostly due to a stigma associating it with suicide. Like think about it, someone goes to social security due to a career ending injury and is depressed largely due to this, and you respond by taking away their rights.

Stuff like that could prevent people from getting help. Idk, I wouldn't ever try to get help if it meant losing my rights or being put into some mental health database.

If you are against the NRA or gun ownership, why not suggest we create gun laws that impact the whole population, rather than single out a minority for no real reason?
   
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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 5th 2017, 04:41 AM

If you are disabled enough to need someone to manage your finances than you are likely too disabled to own a gun. No, not all disabled people should be barred from owning guns. But, I don't personally see anything wrong with this, I personally agree with the law.

And, I am not against guns, I am actually one of those people that doesn't believe that banning guns etc will stop there from being mass killings. If people don't have access to guns they will use other means and they have.


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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 5th 2017, 05:32 AM

I'm not American but my opinion though:

I think there needs to be some sort law regarding who is allowed to have a gun. People who suffer from certain mental illnesses should not be permitted to own guns. In my country, people need to pass a background check that looks at their mental, addiction and domestic violence and criminal records and need to determine if in that past five years:

Quote:
-has been treated for a mental illness, whether in a hospital, mental institute, psychiatric clinic or otherwise and whether or not the person was confined to such a hospital, institute or clinic, that was associated with violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person; or
- has a history of behaviour that includes violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person.
If they are determined to be eligible, then I have no issues with them owning a gun.

I don't necessarily agree with the law and how if someone has someone to manage their finances, should not be allowed to own a gun. However, I think they need to be properly screened and undergo safety training if they are eligible.
   
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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 6th 2017, 04:14 AM

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Originally Posted by Proud90sKid View Post
Because we all know everyone with depression and BPD commits suicide right? How would you define "anger issues", and how would you enforce this when we have pretty strict HIPPA privacy laws in place? You can go to the doctor, be diagnosed with several severe mental health problems, and nobody would ever know.

Also things like depression can also be somewhat situational. It isn't just about a chemical imbalance --though that's part of it. It has been proven that unemployment, disability, etc. contributes to depression. So you are proposing we take firearm rights from someone just because they are depressed due to say unemployment --mostly due to a stigma associating it with suicide. Like think about it, someone goes to social security due to a career ending injury and is depressed largely due to this, and you respond by taking away their rights.

Stuff like that could prevent people from getting help. Idk, I wouldn't ever try to get help if it meant losing my rights or being put into some mental health database.

If you are against the NRA or gun ownership, why not suggest we create gun laws that impact the whole population, rather than single out a minority for no real reason?
I should have been more specific, people who are depressed to the point of being suicidal should not be allowed to buy a gun. Of course there are different levels of depression, its not like someone who's mildly depressed is gonna kill themselves. But if a psychiatrist or psychologist determines that somebody has a medium to high risk of killing themselves, yeah, they shouldnt be allowed to have a gun. I was depressed myself in high school, and if I had a gun or any way to instantly and cleanly kill myself, I definitely would've. My methods didn't kill me, but a gun would've. As for BPD (borderline personality disorder), Im not an expert on that, but a girl I knew who had it was EXTREMELY high risk for suicide and homicide (keep in mind that I met that girl in a mental hospital). She was extremely unstable. Granted, Im not sure if ALL BPD patients are like that, but she was. How's this: if a mental health professional determines that someone is too high risk to own a gun, they should be able to break privacy laws to prevent them from owning a gun. That seems like the most reasonable compromise in the book- "this person's dangerous, don't give them a gun". Duh. Im pretty sure they can already do that anyway with regard to suicidal and homicidal people. I would still definitely blanket ban for some conditions though, like schizophrenia. I mean come on, you'd be crazy to give a schizophrenic a gun.
Its not that I'm against gun ownership either, but Im totally against the NRA as they are now. They bought half the government and they profit off of mass shootings. Whenever there is a mass shooting, they encourage people to buy guns and make tons of money off of memberships. And then they loosen the gun laws (they legally bribe the politicians) and there are more mass shootings, and its a vicious cycle. They arent even for background checks, even though 90% of Americans and a majority of NRA members (74%) see that as a 'no shit' position. If you wanna have a shotgun in your house or something like that, I'm not really bothered as long as your background is clean and your kids don't have access to it. But no, the NRA believes everyone and their grandma should have a gun, which wouldn't work out well.


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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 6th 2017, 04:35 AM

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Originally Posted by MWF View Post
I should have been more specific, people who are depressed to the point of being suicidal should not be allowed to buy a gun. Of course there are different levels of depression, its not like someone who's mildly depressed is gonna kill themselves. But if a psychiatrist or psychologist determines that somebody has a medium to high risk of killing themselves, yeah, they shouldnt be allowed to have a gun. I was depressed myself in high school, and if I had a gun or any way to instantly and cleanly kill myself, I definitely would've. My methods didn't kill me, but a gun would've. As for BPD (borderline personality disorder), Im not an expert on that, but a girl I knew who had it was EXTREMELY high risk for suicide and homicide (keep in mind that I met that girl in a mental hospital). She was extremely unstable. Granted, Im not sure if ALL BPD patients are like that, but she was. How's this: if a mental health professional determines that someone is too high risk to own a gun, they should be able to break privacy laws to prevent them from owning a gun. That seems like the most reasonable compromise in the book- "this person's dangerous, don't give them a gun". Duh. Im pretty sure they can already do that anyway with regard to suicidal and homicidal people. I would still definitely blanket ban for some conditions though, like schizophrenia. I mean come on, you'd be crazy to give a schizophrenic a gun.
Its not that I'm against gun ownership either, but Im totally against the NRA as they are now. They bought half the government and they profit off of mass shootings. Whenever there is a mass shooting, they encourage people to buy guns and make tons of money off of memberships. And then they loosen the gun laws (they legally bribe the politicians) and there are more mass shootings, and its a vicious cycle. They arent even for background checks, even though 90% of Americans and a majority of NRA members (74%) see that as a 'no shit' position. If you wanna have a shotgun in your house or something like that, I'm not really bothered as long as your background is clean and your kids don't have access to it. But no, the NRA believes everyone and their grandma should have a gun, which wouldn't work out well.
Every time I went into the psych hospital I had to sign a paper that stated I couldn't own a gun for five years. The nurses used to try and scare me by saying I wasn't allowed in a house with guns because if something happened I'd be held accountable. Idk if this is only something my state does or all states. I also don't know if they still do it because the last few times I've been no one has mentioned it. Also, different holds used to have different lengths of time.


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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 18th 2017, 06:37 PM

Disclaimer: I live in the UK.

I think guns should be illegal by default, and only allowed to people with permits.

That said, I think as many people should be encouraged to get permits and own guns as possible.

Specific circumstances that might disqualify someone from being issued a permit:
- history of mental illness
- history of mental illness in the family
- criminal records
- possible associations with criminals and suspects
- history of reckless behavior that isn't necessarily illegal (car accidents, alcoholism, substance abuse, etc.)
- is Jewish or womyn

Priority ought to be given to former military, police and/or security services.

Minimum age: 25 to carry in public, 21 to have one in your own home

Minimum age maybe lower if there are special circumstances such as imminent threat to life. If a younger person is still living with their family, then an older person in the family can take responsibility for owning the gun. If they're living on their own however, and there is good reason to believe that they are at serious risk, give them a permit. Like if ISIS has your name on a kill-list sort of thing, or you have some psychopath ex-boyfriend stalking you.

And to own a gun, you'd have to pass some sort of basic questionnaire, training, or exam... that would teach people to not do stupid things like leave guns in the reach of small children. All guns would be government issued with serial numbers, so that none "go missing".
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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 19th 2017, 06:10 AM

^That idea, extremely unlikely to be implemented in the USA. Constitutionally most of your ideas will not stand.

Also, saying that the government is in charge of issuing guns, and that all guns and their owners are registered with the government, essentially defeats the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.


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Re: Congress rolls back law prohibiting guns for disabled - June 19th 2017, 07:50 AM

It's what I would like to see in the UK. I should have made that clearer.

Different cultures and histories ought to be treated differently, which applies to gun control as well.

To introduce the same sort of gun rights in the UK as those that exist in America... I don't think it would work for the greater good. As it stands though, not even former military are allowed to carry, which I think is cretinous.

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Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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