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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Why care? - June 7th 2009, 11:16 PM

I understand that many people don't thing that any think but being straight is ok. I understand that you may not like the idea of man on man or woman on woman. If you feel that way, then great.. don't participate in homosexual sex. What I don't understand is why some of those people care if other people do it? In every other circumstance, a person who is interested in the activities that go on in someone else's bedroom would be considered a pervert. And If you think that these people shouldn't get married either, then don't have a gay marriage. why do you care what someone else does?

What gives one person the right to tell another person what they can and cannot do when it doesn't effect anyone else?

If you guys can explain this to me in a way that makes sense, I will be a much happier person...



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Re: Why care? - June 7th 2009, 11:23 PM

Human Nature and its quest to be "right"
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Re: Why care? - June 7th 2009, 11:56 PM

yeah i don't get it either. i'm straight myself, but i'm all for people doing what/who they want!


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 12:02 AM

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Originally Posted by kimvia View Post
What I don't understand is why some of those people care if other people do it?
They don't care if they do it and keep it private. The unfortunate thing is that they don't. They want to have parades, they want to force religious institutions to marry them, and they want to be accepted as normal. That's a whole lot of things they want to force on other people when they could just engage in their activities in private and not bother anyone with it.

I, personally, don't care what a person does in the privacy of their bedroom, but if they come to me about it, talk about it, are proud of it, flaunt it, come to help for me about it, try to get me to agree with it, etc etc etc then I care. I'm willing to talk to a gay person if they need advice on something or are depressed at something, but I won't condone what they're doing either. If gay people really only wanted the privacy to do their thing, then there wouldn't be that much of an argument about it. The problem is that they want everyone else to accept them.

Quote:
If you think that these people shouldn't get married either, then don't have a gay marriage. why do you care what someone else does?
Because we live in a society and what one person does affects other people whether or not they immediately realize that it does. That being said, marriage is a primarily religious institution. If gay people want to live together, fine. If they want to share resources, fine. If they want to have all the benefits of marriage, fine. But when they seek to force religious entities to force them to allow them to marry they have then crossed the line. When they want other people to accept what they are doing as right or OK then they have crossed the line.

I don't know of any religious people who actually have a problem with gay people or gay marriage. The problem is that gay people try to force religious people to accept what they do as OK. Honestly, if I want to have sex with someone, I'm not going to have a "coming out" party and announce it to my family (and thus involve them). If it's really a private matter, they'd keep it to themselves. They don't and that's why there's a problem.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 12:32 AM

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Originally Posted by TheKnight View Post
They don't care if they do it and keep it private. The unfortunate thing is that they don't. They want to have parades, they want to force religious institutions to marry them, and they want to be accepted as normal. That's a whole lot of things they want to force on other people when they could just engage in their activities in private and not bother anyone with it.
... So we can be gay, but we had better stay in the closet about it? If you don't like Pride Parades, don't go, simple as that. I personally don't like Heavy Metal concerts. Do I think that people who do enjoy them shouldn't go? nope, I just don't go to them myself. Problem solved!

Quote:
I, personally, don't care what a person does in the privacy of their bedroom, but if they come to me about it, talk about it, are proud of it, flaunt it, come to help for me about it, try to get me to agree with it, etc etc etc then I care. I'm willing to talk to a gay person if they need advice on something or are depressed at something, but I won't condone what they're doing either. If gay people really only wanted the privacy to do their thing, then there wouldn't be that much of an argument about it. The problem is that they want everyone else to accept them.
Who comes and talks to you about it? I've never met some one who did that... But we should be able to talk about it, just like hetero's do. And why not be proud if it? Minorities need to be proud of themselves and have a sense of community with other's in their group. We want people to accept us so that we can have equal rights. is that really asking a lot? Would you deny blacks their rights because they were talking about it and having parades and proud of their heritage?

Quote:
Because we live in a society and what one person does affects other people whether or not they immediately realize that it does. That being said, marriage is a primarily religious institution. If gay people want to live together, fine. If they want to share resources, fine. If they want to have all the benefits of marriage, fine. But when they seek to force religious entities to force them to allow them to marry they have then crossed the line. When they want other people to accept what they are doing as right or OK then they have crossed the line.
So, I have to ask... Lets say I marry a girl... what does it do to anyone else? How does my marriage effect you? There are several churches that are perfectly happy to perform gay marriage ceremonies... What churches in the U.S. perform gay marriages? | Answerbag.com

Quote:
I don't know of any religious people who actually have a problem with gay people or gay marriage. The problem is that gay people try to force religious people to accept what they do as OK.
I would love to meet these religious people you're talking about... Unfortunately i've had the opposite experience. We don't want them to think its a great idea, we want them to give us equal rights. Unfortunately for us, we are in the minority so in order to have equal rights and avoid the tyranny of the majority, we have to convince these people to vote for us to be treated equally... just like blacks had to do.


Quote:
Honestly, if I want to have sex with someone, I'm not going to have a "coming out" party and announce it to my family (and thus involve them). If it's really a private matter, they'd keep it to themselves. They don't and that's why there's a problem.
Not many people actually have coming out parties. Also, being homosexual (just like being heterosexual) has a lot more to it than sex. We come out to our families so that they understand our relationships. If I bring home a girl to introduce her to my family, i want them to know she is a spouce, not just a friend. And, do you keep your sexuality private? do you keep it a secret that you are, dare i say it, straight? Didn't think so.. then why should I keep it a secret that I'm bi?



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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 12:41 AM

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They don't care if they do it and keep it private. The unfortunate thing is that they don't. They want to have parades, they want to force religious institutions to marry them, and they want to be accepted as normal. That's a whole lot of things they want to force on other people when they could just engage in their activities in private and not bother anyone with it.

I, personally, don't care what a person does in the privacy of their bedroom, but if they come to me about it, talk about it, are proud of it, flaunt it, come to help for me about it, try to get me to agree with it, etc etc etc then I care. I'm willing to talk to a gay person if they need advice on something or are depressed at something, but I won't condone what they're doing either. If gay people really only wanted the privacy to do their thing, then there wouldn't be that much of an argument about it. The problem is that they want everyone else to accept them.


Because we live in a society and what one person does affects other people whether or not they immediately realize that it does. That being said, marriage is a primarily religious institution. If gay people want to live together, fine. If they want to share resources, fine. If they want to have all the benefits of marriage, fine. But when they seek to force religious entities to force them to allow them to marry they have then crossed the line. When they want other people to accept what they are doing as right or OK then they have crossed the line.

I don't know of any religious people who actually have a problem with gay people or gay marriage. The problem is that gay people try to force religious people to accept what they do as OK. Honestly, if I want to have sex with someone, I'm not going to have a "coming out" party and announce it to my family (and thus involve them). If it's really a private matter, they'd keep it to themselves. They don't and that's why there's a problem.
Actually I believe you are wrong. I don't think that marriage is primarily a religious institution at all anymore. I bet if you looked up statistics a majority of the marriages that take place today don't even happen in churches. 300 couples get married each day in Vegas those certainly aren't religious. Loads of people simply go to their city hall and forego the ceremony. The fact is marriage is now more about the legal benefits than anything and that's all that gay couples want. And since when are they trying to force religious institutions to marry them. Everyone knows perfectly well that we can't force anything on churches that would be against the first amendment. So I don't see the problem at all.

I get that you don't like the gay pride things but I think once being gay stops being some taboo thing then that will stop some. They are just trying to bring attention to their cause.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 01:34 AM

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... So we can be gay, but we had better stay in the closet about it? If you don't like Pride Parades, don't go, simple as that. I personally don't like Heavy Metal concerts. Do I think that people who do enjoy them shouldn't go? nope, I just don't go to them myself. Problem solved!

Who comes and talks to you about it? I've never met some one who did that... But we should be able to talk about it, just like hetero's do. And why not be proud if it? Minorities need to be proud of themselves and have a sense of community with other's in their group. We want people to accept us so that we can have equal rights. is that really asking a lot? Would you deny blacks their rights because they were talking about it and having parades and proud of their heritage?
For the record, I agree with you on gay marriage. I view marriage as just your typical social institution. Social institutions change as time goes on, and so should marriage. Gays deserve every right that any other hetero person in this country has...

However, I agree with The Knight when he says that the "gay pride" thing can get pretty annoying. And yes, I do believe those gay pride parades are pretty annoying. Why? Because I honestly do not care who you like to sleep with. That should be your business, and yours only. We're not saying stay in the closet, but we also don't want gays flaunting their homosexuality everywhere. If it comes up casually in regular conversation, then I'm fine with that. But gay parades? Day of Silence? Give me a break.

It's one thing to build a community around an interest (Heavy Metal) or a race (Latino), but its a whole other story to build a community around a sexual orientation. It's just not the same. While I understand some of these groups may be necessary now to combat marriage laws, I hope in the near future we can see these groups dissapear. Once those marriage restrictions dissapear (and I believe they will one day, within 20-50 years), then I want these groups to stop.
   
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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 01:50 AM

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They don't care if they do it and keep it private. The unfortunate thing is that they don't. They want to have parades, they want to force religious institutions to marry them, and they want to be accepted as normal. That's a whole lot of things they want to force on other people when they could just engage in their activities in private and not bother anyone with it.
I've never heard a same-sex person say they want to force religious institutions to marry them. They just want to be married and have it recognized by the government. They (at least the majority of them) aren't asking for churches to be required to marry same-sex couples.

It's also not so much that are asking to be accepted as normal, as much as it is wanting to be respected as a part of society in general. By that, I mean that they want to be able to walk down the street without fearing for their safety or getting dirty looks. That is a pretty fair desire if you ask me, and it is in no way forcing anyone to agree with them. Everyone deserves respect.

If you were being opressed by society and constantly told you were wrong and disgusting, you might be inclined to hold parades too. They're sort of a way to say, hey I'm proud of who I am and I'm not going to change for anyone! If society just treated them equally it wouldn't be an issue. Also, not everyone in the gay community participates or supports gay pride parades.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 02:09 AM

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They don't care if they do it and keep it private. The unfortunate thing is that they don't. They want to have parades, they want to force religious institutions to marry them, and they want to be accepted as normal. That's a whole lot of things they want to force on other people when they could just engage in their activities in private and not bother anyone with it.

I, personally, don't care what a person does in the privacy of their bedroom, but if they come to me about it, talk about it, are proud of it, flaunt it, come to help for me about it, try to get me to agree with it, etc etc etc then I care. I'm willing to talk to a gay person if they need advice on something or are depressed at something, but I won't condone what they're doing either. If gay people really only wanted the privacy to do their thing, then there wouldn't be that much of an argument about it. The problem is that they want everyone else to accept them.

Because we live in a society and what one person does affects other people whether or not they immediately realize that it does. That being said, marriage is a primarily religious institution. If gay people want to live together, fine. If they want to share resources, fine. If they want to have all the benefits of marriage, fine. But when they seek to force religious entities to force them to allow them to marry they have then crossed the line. When they want other people to accept what they are doing as right or OK then they have crossed the line.

I don't know of any religious people who actually have a problem with gay people or gay marriage. The problem is that gay people try to force religious people to accept what they do as OK. Honestly, if I want to have sex with someone, I'm not going to have a "coming out" party and announce it to my family (and thus involve them). If it's really a private matter, they'd keep it to themselves. They don't and that's why there's a problem.
We need marches because it is the main way to get our message heard as one. It's very easy to say we parade our sexuality, but for straight people they don't really have to face the same persecution we do, they have nothing to march against. We are showing are unity as LGBT people who are proud and want to be equal. It is nothing about forcing our sexuality on anybody, and if anything it is reactionary to homophobes invading our private life and forcing their norms on us. As for marriage...a) It's not really been a religious institution for a good 50 years or so now and b) We rarely get the same rights as married couples. Personally, most the LGBT people I know couldn't care less about getting married in a church/mosque/synagogue- we just want the same right as married couples in the law.

Your approach here seems to be ridiculously heavy-handed- you get annoyed if someone "they come to me about it, talk about it, are proud of it, flaunt it, come to help for me about it, try to get me to agree with it," from my personal view sounds a little bit homophobic. How is talking about it flaunting it? If we want to say we're gay to you in conversation, it's no different from saying we're afraid of heights or something- it's a part of us and saying that yu don't want to hear that is akin to rejecting who we are. Why shouldn't we want people to accept that we, as LGBTQ peoples are okay? Why should we have to live in privacy and fear of persecution just because some people don't like it? It's a strangling of civil liberties and free speech. We tried to force nothing on anyone back in Ancient Greece where gay activity was large. We only do it now, because of years of religious organisations and even governments trying to force us to be straight.

Overall, we wouldn't need to be out on the streets getting people to accept us, if the world hadn't of been so predujice to begin with.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 02:32 AM

First of all, I want to say that I am all for gay marriage and equality. I have no problem with homosexuality at all.

What I do have a problem with is the fact that many people in the GLBTQ community seem to be somewhat fixated on their sexuality.

What do I mean? It seems to me that the first thing out of a lot of these individuals' mouths is "Hi, my name's ______. Just so you know, I'm gay." Literally, in the same breath as their introduction, they're telling you their sexual preference. And I'm just standing there thinking, okay... umm... that's nice for you, but is that all you see yourself as?

And the people I'm talking about are wonderful people who I really enjoy spending time with. However, before I got to know them as people, they seemed to find it necessary to fill me in on all of the nuances of their sexual preference/gender identity. Although I'm glad that they felt they could confide in me, it really didn't make any difference. Its not who they are. Its just a very small part of it. Why should it take up so much of their conscious thought? Why should they spend so much of their time agonizing over it?

The truth is you just don't see straight people doing that.

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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:09 AM

I kind of understand what Daniel is saying. Do we have huge parades and celebrations for being straight? If you're gay, fine... I don't care much. But why all of the unnecessary movements and stuff? Chances are, if someone doesn't like gay people for some reason, coming across a gay pride celebration isn't going to make them anymore tolerant. In fact, I think it would be likely to do the exact opposite. I don't really care what other people do with their lives because it doesn't affect me... But I think that if gay people want the right to marry, be taken seriously, considered as normal people, etc., there needs not be so much screaming, "I'm gay!"


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:17 AM

We don't have huge parties and celebrations for being straight because we don't need to. Straights aren't regularly discriminated against, harrassed and attacked, and so we don't need to constantly be battling for our rights and shoving our identity in people's faces.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:23 AM

People care if banks get robbed, people care if a man beats up his wife and children, people care if big corporations are cheating people out of their money, people care if a kid cheats on a test. If something happens that people think isn't right, regardless of whether they're the ones being victimized or harmed, sometimes they'll worry about it anyways and take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. And so because there are people out there who think that being gay isn't right, they'll try to make it so that gay people aren't allowed to get married and have all the other rights that straight couples do.

I completely disagree with that kind of thinking. I definitely think that two people trying to love each other and have it official isn't hurting anyone; in fact, more lasting, committed marriages will probably make the world better. I'm all for gay rights. But that thinking is out there, and as long as people are trying to be conscious citizens who want the world to be the best it can be, people won't like gays having as many rights. It's a mess, but it's the stigma and the prejudice that's the problem, not the caring about what other people do.
Or at least, that's just my theory and how other people have explained their ideas to me.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:23 AM

Okay I know that this wasn't the same level of discrimination but you know during the civil rights movements there were plenty of parades and marches and such. would you be saying the same thing if you were living around then? Don't you think there were people going, "I'm fine with black people being around as long as they don't flaunt their blackness at me."

Please don't misunderstand I know it's not the same level, but I still find it similar.

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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:26 AM

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Okay I know that this wasn't the same level of discrimination but you know during the civil rights movements there were plenty of parades and marches and such. would you be saying the same thing if you were living around then? Don't you think there were people going, "I'm fine with black people being around as long as they don't flaunt their blackness at me."

Please don't misunderstand I know it's not the same level, but I still find it similar.
Personally, I don't see how its any different at all...



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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:30 AM

It's not at all different. The majority of people can now look back in history and wonder how we used to be so ridiculous as to deny women and other races their rights. Eventually homophobics will be classed in the same group as racists, and we'll wonder how people could have been so backwards as to not allow same sex marriage.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 05:13 AM

I've noticed that it's mostly the older generation who has a problem with gays, similarily to the problem of unacceptance of, say, black people. Now they (black people) are widely accepted in most places. I feel that the same thing will happen to gays, given enough time, the old timers will die out and there will be less and less hate/unacceptance passed down through the generations.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 05:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
First of all, I want to say that I am all for gay marriage and equality. I have no problem with homosexuality at all.

What I do have a problem with is the fact that many people in the GLBTQ community seem to be somewhat fixated on their sexuality.

What do I mean? It seems to me that the first thing out of a lot of these individuals' mouths is "Hi, my name's ______. Just so you know, I'm gay." Literally, in the same breath as their introduction, they're telling you their sexual preference. And I'm just standing there thinking, okay... umm... that's nice for you, but is that all you see yourself as?

And the people I'm talking about are wonderful people who I really enjoy spending time with. However, before I got to know them as people, they seemed to find it necessary to fill me in on all of the nuances of their sexual preference/gender identity. Although I'm glad that they felt they could confide in me, it really didn't make any difference. Its not who they are. Its just a very small part of it. Why should it take up so much of their conscious thought? Why should they spend so much of their time agonizing over it?

The truth is you just don't see straight people doing that.

I hope I didn't offend anyone.
I think it's to make sure the person they're talking to is comfortable with the fact that they're gay and to prevent any akwardness. For example, I find I often tell people I'm a vegetarian right when I first meet them. I didn't in the beginning, but I found that people would make jokes about meat or talk about it or whatever and then when they found out I'm a vegetarian they would feel akward/guilty. It's easier just to get it out of the way!


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 05:37 AM

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Originally Posted by kimvia
... So we can be gay, but we had better stay in the closet about it? If you don't like Pride Parades, don't go, simple as that. I personally don't like Heavy Metal concerts. Do I think that people who do enjoy them shouldn't go? nope, I just don't go to them myself. Problem solved!
I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say.

You tell me: "Why does it matter to you what people do in their own bedrooms"

I respond: "It doesn't matter to me that they do it in privacy. What bothers me is that they want to have a parade about it on the streets of the city I live in."

I have no problem with what gay people do in private, but there's no need to broadcast it. There's no need to go around telling someone. I'm not saying be someone you're not, but just because you're being yourself doesn't mean that you have to tell everyone you meet about yourself. It doesn't mean you need to go have a parade about it, it doesn't mean you need to shove it in my face. That's my point. I like Strawberry Cheesecake, but I don't go around having a parade, or telling people, or flaunting it because it really has nothing to do with anyone except for myself and the person who makes it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kimvia
Who comes and talks to you about it? I've never met some one who did that... But we should be able to talk about it, just like hetero's do.
I've never heard of a hetero pride parade...I have friends who talk to me about their struggles (which is all fine and good). However, what I have also noticed is that if I engage in a conversation with gay person, they will find some way to bring it up within the first few moments of the conversation.

Quote:
And why not be proud if it? Minorities need to be proud of themselves and have a sense of community with other's in their group. We want people to accept us so that we can have equal rights. is that really asking a lot? Would you deny blacks their rights because they were talking about it and having parades and proud of their heritage?
Trying to compare black rights to gay rights is simply disrespectful. While it's still bad, the amount of gay people who have been persecuted does not in any way compare to the millions of Africans who were murdered in the slave trade, the millions of blacks mistreated in America, and the many more millions of lives ruined simply because a person is a few shades darker. It's different, to say that it isn't is to not know what you're talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kimvia
So, I have to ask... Lets say I marry a girl... what does it do to anyone else? How does my marriage effect you? There are several churches that are perfectly happy to perform gay marriage ceremonies...
That's fine, marry a girl. But don't ask me to recognize your marriage as valid when I don't believe that it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimvia
I would love to meet these religious people you're talking about... Unfortunately i've had the opposite experience. We don't want them to think its a great idea, we want them to give us equal rights. Unfortunately for us, we are in the minority so in order to have equal rights and avoid the tyranny of the majority, we have to convince these people to vote for us to be treated equally...
What gay people desire is for others to accept what they do. I have no problem accepting a gay person as a human being (and no religious person that I know has a problem with it). The thing is when they want us to accept what they do, when people talk about their relationships and get mad when other people don't want to hear about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimvia
And, do you keep your sexuality private? do you keep it a secret that you are, dare i say it, straight? Didn't think so.. then why should I keep it a secret that I'm bi?
I don't think you understand. I'm not saying hide who you are, but certainly don't flaunt it. I don't go around talking about how I'm straight, and I don't even go around talking about sex because (surprised as you might be) I think it's immodest to talk about sex in an inappropriate circumstance.

My only problem with gay people is the issue of modesty, the thing is that immodesty isn't something that only gay people deal with, but most people are immodest. I, personally, have a problem with all immodesty and gay people simply happen to be a tad more immodest then others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole
They are just trying to bring attention to their cause.
What cause is there to bring attention to? I have a friend who is gay, he has a boyfriend, and has a happy homosexual relationship. I have to say that he is my favorite gay person in the world because he doesn't go around trying to bring attention to the "cause."

I think a lot of the reason that some straight people have a problem with gay people is the fact that a gay person will say that what they do is a private matter and then they'll try to bring attention to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khadra

If you were being opressed by society and constantly told you were wrong and disgusting, you might be inclined to hold parades too.


Wrong. I have been oppressed by society because I have different religious beliefs then 99.001% of the population. I get called stupid names, I get told that I'm a freak or that I'm stupid. Yet at the same time I'm not gonna go hold a parade for my "cause".

Why not? Because I have self-esteem. I don't need others to accept me to know that I am valuable. The gay people I know with high self-esteem are the same way. The don't need to "come out" to everyone they know or anything like that because they know that who they are and their value is not dependent on what other people think.


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Originally Posted by Jamie
We rarely get the same rights as married couples.
Look at Prop 8 for instance. A gay couple could (and still can) get a domestic partnership in the State of California that would afford them all the same rights as a marriage. So what was the deal with Prop 8? The deal was that the State didn't want to call it marriage.

If all gay people were concerned about was getting the same rights, they wouldn't care what it was called, but instead they wanted it to be called a marriage. Why? Because, as I said earlier, they want their actions to be accepted.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 01:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Khadra View Post
I think it's to make sure the person they're talking to is comfortable with the fact that they're gay and to prevent any akwardness. For example, I find I often tell people I'm a vegetarian right when I first meet them. I didn't in the beginning, but I found that people would make jokes about meat or talk about it or whatever and then when they found out I'm a vegetarian they would feel akward/guilty. It's easier just to get it out of the way!
That would make sense to me if it was just mentioned a couple of times, or if they said "Hi, my name is _________. Just so you know, I'm gay. That isn't going to be a problem for you, is it?" And then I say no, and they leave it at that. However, it seemed that for the first couple of weeks to the first month of our friendships the only thing they could talk about was their sexual preference/gender identity. It was the only thing they could identify themselves with, the only meaningful conversation that they could participate in. It just bugs me because its so superficial, and yet they were fixated on it. I'm talking about 4 different people here who were not in the same social group or anything.
   
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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 02:15 PM

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Originally Posted by TheKnight View Post
I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say.

You tell me: "Why does it matter to you what people do in their own bedrooms"

I respond: "It doesn't matter to me that they do it in privacy. What bothers me is that they want to have a parade about it on the streets of the city I live in."

I have no problem with what gay people do in private, but there's no need to broadcast it. There's no need to go around telling someone. I'm not saying be someone you're not, but just because you're being yourself doesn't mean that you have to tell everyone you meet about yourself. It doesn't mean you need to go have a parade about it, it doesn't mean you need to shove it in my face. That's my point. I like Strawberry Cheesecake, but I don't go around having a parade, or telling people, or flaunting it because it really has nothing to do with anyone except for myself and the person who makes it.
Because gay people STILL don't have the same rights as straight people.


Quote:
I've never heard of a hetero pride parade...I have friends who talk to me about their struggles (which is all fine and good). However, what I have also noticed is that if I engage in a conversation with gay person, they will find some way to bring it up within the first few moments of the conversation.
One of us is hanging out with weird gay people, because it took me about a semester to figure out someone (not in the closet) was gay. He didn't say he was gay...

Quote:
Trying to compare black rights to gay rights is simply disrespectful. While it's still bad, the amount of gay people who have been persecuted does not in any way compare to the millions of Africans who were murdered in the slave trade, the millions of blacks mistreated in America, and the many more millions of lives ruined simply because a person is a few shades darker. It's different, to say that it isn't is to not know what you're talking about.
Because you can hide your sexuality. In the time of slavery, sodomy was a sometimes executable offense.


Quote:
That's fine, marry a girl. But don't ask me to recognize your marriage as valid when I don't believe that it is.
How? It is recognized by the state, that does

Quote:
What gay people desire is for others to accept what they do. I have no problem accepting a gay person as a human being (and no religious person that I know has a problem with it). The thing is when they want us to accept what they do, when people talk about their relationships and get mad when other people don't want to hear about it.
That's fine, but at least tolerate it.

Quote:
I don't think you understand. I'm not saying hide who you are, but certainly don't flaunt it. I don't go around talking about how I'm straight, and I don't even go around talking about sex because (surprised as you might be) I think it's immodest to talk about sex in an inappropriate circumstance.
Because everything relating to being gay is about sex... >_>




Quote:
What cause is there to bring attention to? I have a friend who is gay, he has a boyfriend, and has a happy homosexual relationship. I have to say that he is my favorite gay person in the world because he doesn't go around trying to bring attention to the "cause."

I think a lot of the reason that some straight people have a problem with gay people is the fact that a gay person will say that what they do is a private matter and then they'll try to bring attention to it.
In pretty much every state, gays still can't marry. I would say that's a pretty important cause.

Quote:
Look at Prop 8 for instance. A gay couple could (and still can) get a domestic partnership in the State of California that would afford them all the same rights as a marriage. So what was the deal with Prop 8? The deal was that the State didn't want to call it marriage.

If all gay people were concerned about was getting the same rights, they wouldn't care what it was called, but instead they wanted it to be called a marriage. Why? Because, as I said earlier, they want their actions to be accepted.
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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:19 PM

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Originally Posted by TheKnight View Post
Look at Prop 8 for instance. A gay couple could (and still can) get a domestic partnership in the State of California that would afford them all the same rights as a marriage. So what was the deal with Prop 8? The deal was that the State didn't want to call it marriage.

If all gay people were concerned about was getting the same rights, they wouldn't care what it was called, but instead they wanted it to be called a marriage. Why? Because, as I said earlier, they want their actions to be accepted.
Actually, a civil union does not confer all the rights of a marriage at all- it doesn't even come close. Ergo the big protests against Proposition 8- particularly issues over pensions, benefits and taxation.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:28 PM

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Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected? View Post
Because gay people STILL don't have the same rights as straight people.

In pretty much every state, gays still can't marry. I would say that's a pretty important cause.

Equal Marriage NOW: Civil Marriage v. Civil Unions
Marriages and unions are different. You don't get many of the same rights as marriage when you have a civil union

That doesn't explain why there are still pride parades in Canada. We legalized gay marriage on July 20th, 2005.
   
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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:52 PM

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
That doesn't explain why there are still pride parades in Canada. We legalized gay marriage on July 20th, 2005.
There are always going to be parades and such we don't agree with or don't really want to see. I mean there was a white supremist parade on Martin Luther King Jr day somewhere in the south just last year. Sometimes certain groups want attention and we can't stop them. I get that some of the parades are a bit much, personally I find gay days at Disney a bit much, I went there the other day and my dad made sure I didn't leave the house in the red shirt I was wearing. But at least the gay pride parades aren't hurting anyone or insulting anyone, they are just occasionally annoying. There are far worst groups making themselves known out there.


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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 04:55 PM

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Originally Posted by thebigmole View Post
There are always going to be parades and such we don't agree with or don't really want to see. I mean there was a white supremist parade on Martin Luther King Jr day somewhere in the south just last year. Sometimes certain groups want attention and we can't stop them. I get that some of the parades are a bit much, personally I find gay days at Disney a bit much, I went there the other day and my dad made sure I didn't leave the house in the red shirt I was wearing. But at least the gay pride parades aren't hurting anyone or insulting anyone, they are just occasionally annoying. There are far worst groups making themselves known out there.
Yeah, that's true.
   
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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 07:34 PM

For most minorities, once you see them, you know that they are a minority- skin color, religious symbols, etc. One of the big reasons that LGBTQ people are pretty vocal about their sexuality is because they don't have a specific skin color. If we didn't mention it or wear rainbow belts or suggestive tee's, then no one would know, and we wouldn't be able to find companions- either partners or just friends from a similar background.



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Re: Why care? - June 8th 2009, 11:06 PM

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
That doesn't explain why there are still pride parades in Canada. We legalized gay marriage on July 20th, 2005.

I know that when (Yes when, not if) gay marriage is legalized in Colorado, I will still want Pride Parades. Hell yes I'm proud of who I am, because I put up with tons of other peoples bullshit over something that doesn't even apply to them. I've put up with being bullied, taunted, discriminated against, even pulled over for having a rainbow sticker on my car. I will always be proud of who I am and what I've made it through thanks to other idiots.

If african-americans would like a Pride Parade? Go for it. Or anyone else for that matter. We still have parades for Thanksgiving even though we're way past that era?



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Re: Why care? - June 9th 2009, 12:10 AM

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Originally Posted by Gidig View Post
I know that when (Yes when, not if) gay marriage is legalized in Colorado, I will still want Pride Parades. Hell yes I'm proud of who I am, because I put up with tons of other peoples bullshit over something that doesn't even apply to them. I've put up with being bullied, taunted, discriminated against, even pulled over for having a rainbow sticker on my car. I will always be proud of who I am and what I've made it through thanks to other idiots.

If african-americans would like a Pride Parade? Go for it. Or anyone else for that matter. We still have parades for Thanksgiving even though we're way past that era?
In Canada we don't have thanksgiving day parades...
   
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Re: Why care? - June 9th 2009, 12:16 AM

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
In Canada we don't have thanksgiving day parades...
Because it's an American holiday.... what's your point?



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Re: Why care? - June 9th 2009, 12:47 AM

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Because it's an American holiday.... what's your point?
My point is that currently, the only big parades we have are the Gay Pride parades, and we've legalized gay marriage already, so why the huge big deal?
   
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Re: Why care? - June 9th 2009, 12:55 AM

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
My point is that currently, the only big parades we have are the Gay Pride parades, and we've legalized gay marriage already, so why the huge big deal?
this is why VV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidig View Post
I know that when (Yes when, not if) gay marriage is legalized in Colorado, I will still want Pride Parades. Hell yes I'm proud of who I am, because I put up with tons of other peoples bullshit over something that doesn't even apply to them. I've put up with being bullied, taunted, discriminated against, even pulled over for having a rainbow sticker on my car. I will always be proud of who I am and what I've made it through thanks to other idiots.

If african-americans would like a Pride Parade? Go for it. Or anyone else for that matter. We still have parades for Thanksgiving even though we're way past that era?



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Re: Why care? - June 9th 2009, 04:12 AM

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Wrong. I have been oppressed by society because I have different religious beliefs then 99.001% of the population. I get called stupid names, I get told that I'm a freak or that I'm stupid. Yet at the same time I'm not gonna go hold a parade for my "cause".

Why not? Because I have self-esteem. I don't need others to accept me to know that I am valuable. The gay people I know with high self-esteem are the same way. The don't need to "come out" to everyone they know or anything like that because they know that who they are and their value is not dependent on what other people think.
It's nice that you have high self-esteem and are so sure of yourself, but not everybody does. Would you be okay with a teacher not allowing a student to laugh at recess because that student had low self-esteem? People should be able to do whatever helps them feel better if it's not hurting anyone else. If you don't like rainbows and cheering, then walk down a different street or change the channel on your tv. They are not hurting you. Sometimes people just need a morale booster.

If I may also ask, what is your religion? Because, no offense, I doubt you are being persecuted for it more than people who are gay get persecuted. If you indeed are, I am really sorry you have to go through that. I just hope you realize that gay people don't just get called names and harassed a bit. They get bullied, threatened, beaten up, and sometimes their own families even disown them. They have had to form their own community of sorts to protect themselves from harm. They need somewhere where they can comfortably be open and be themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
That would make sense to me if it was just mentioned a couple of times, or if they said "Hi, my name is _________. Just so you know, I'm gay. That isn't going to be a problem for you, is it?" And then I say no, and they leave it at that. However, it seemed that for the first couple of weeks to the first month of our friendships the only thing they could talk about was their sexual preference/gender identity. It was the only thing they could identify themselves with, the only meaningful conversation that they could participate in. It just bugs me because its so superficial, and yet they were fixated on it. I'm talking about 4 different people here who were not in the same social group or anything.
I haven't experienced that, but I agree that is too much. Maybe they are just really insecure and needed to be reassured a lot that you accepted them. Or maybe being a minority it just becomes their identity and they genuinely feel that is all they are. I'm not sure what that is exactly. Maybe a gay member of TH could explain it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
My point is that currently, the only big parades we have are the Gay Pride parades, and we've legalized gay marriage already, so why the huge big deal?
I know this is a little off topic, but I just had to say that's totally not true. We have big parades for Christmas, Earth Day, Free Tibet, Victoria Day, and Canada Day.


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Re: Why care? - June 9th 2009, 04:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Gidig View Post
I know that when (Yes when, not if) gay marriage is legalized in Colorado, I will still want Pride Parades. Hell yes I'm proud of who I am, because I put up with tons of other peoples bullshit over something that doesn't even apply to them. I've put up with being bullied, taunted, discriminated against, even pulled over for having a rainbow sticker on my car. I will always be proud of who I am and what I've made it through thanks to other idiots.

If african-americans would like a Pride Parade? Go for it. Or anyone else for that matter. We still have parades for Thanksgiving even though we're way past that era?
I can understand being proud of who you are, and being sick and tired of discrimination and the bull you've had to put up with as a non-striaght person. However, it does bother ME, as a non-discriminatory person who believes that having gay sex is wrong. I think it puts distance between you and G-d and therefore, you shouldn't do it. However, your realtionship with G-d is your business (and His) and your relationship with your sexual partner(s) is your business (and your partner's/s'). I believe gay couples should get all the same rights under secular state law as hetero couples. So why parade about, telling everyone that? Write letters to your member of parliament (or American equivalent--state legislature?). Write to Obama. Talk to people whom you actually know. THEY'RE the ones for whom it actually matters. *I* couldn't care less. I don't even know what you look like, so why would I want to know your sexuality (for purposes outside debating ).

I don't think there are any gay people who don't know that the Bible is firmly against gay sex. To talk to religious people out it, to bring up sexuality unnecessarily is asking for trouble! I like the language Daniel used: immodest. It is! I'm not gonna talk about any guys I have have kissed/want to kiss. It's immodest to talk about that, just as it's immodest for you to talk about girls you've kissed/want to kiss. There are ways to obtain civil rights. Marching for gay rights is NOT equivalent to a Pride Parade. They're just not the same.

The persecution and discrimination faced by LGBT+ people right now is NOT the same as that faced by black people. It is the discrimination of invisibility, whereas African Americans faced active persecution. Gay people can use the same water fountains as straight people, live in the same neighbourhoods (sometimes with difficulty with neighbours), and work the same jobs for the same pay as straight people, as long as they behave within the confines of polite day-to-day interaction, as we all should if we expect basic rights and freedoms. Yes, LBGT+ people still get beat up, killed, tortured, made fun of, hated. It's tragic that people are not more accepting. But is a Pride Parade really going to change that? If anything, I think it might aggravate hate. I don't think Pride Parades win allies.

Tangentially, let's take a look at other groups that have been persecuted recently:
Tutsis in Rwanda are a small ethnic minority. Without going into too much historical detail, I'll just say that in the '90s, the Hutus decided to purge the country of Tutsis, starting with Tusti military personnel and evolving into one of the largest genocides in 20th century history. Do we see Tutsi Pride parades in Rwanda today? Or in it's sister country, Burundi, which had similar ethnic wars? No.
When Jews in Nazi Germany were being systematically deprived of their rights and freedoms (under the Nurenberg laws) and then killed, did they shout their identity from rooftops, even though "Jewish" defines many more aspects of a person's live than a sexual orientation does. Do we see Jew Pride Parades? Well, OK, we sometimes see Jewish parades now, but they're always about the fighting between Israel and Palestine, not about past injustices and the current discrimination that still exists.
When protestants were being killed in England in the 1600s, did they introduce themselves "Hi, I'm Edwin and I'm Protestant?" No.

If a law is unjust, we can write letters to our representatives in government and we can march peacefully against the specific injustices. When people wanted pot decriminalized, they didn't get hundreds of people high together to march through the streets. They put up signs and spoke to their MPs. Likewise, since LGBT people want laws changed, they should write to their representatives and organize specific marches. Pride Parades are neither. They are just celebrations of a lifestyle that most people (judging by current laws), whether justly or not, consider to be immoral. I think, in this case, public opinion will change after the legal one.


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Re: Why care? - June 9th 2009, 06:01 AM

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Originally Posted by SillyEvee View Post
I can understand being proud of who you are, and being sick and tired of discrimination and the bull you've had to put up with as a non-striaght person. However, it does bother ME, as a non-discriminatory person who believes that having gay sex is wrong. I think it puts distance between you and G-d and therefore, you shouldn't do it. However, your realtionship with G-d is your business (and His) and your relationship with your sexual partner(s) is your business (and your partner's/s'). I believe gay couples should get all the same rights under secular state law as hetero couples. So why parade about, telling everyone that? Write letters to your member of parliament (or American equivalent--state legislature?). Write to Obama. Talk to people whom you actually know. THEY'RE the ones for whom it actually matters. *I* couldn't care less. I don't even know what you look like, so why would I want to know your sexuality (for purposes outside debating ).
It's not that I want everyone to know my sexuality (Which, people assuming you're straight until you say otherwise is another matter) it's that I feel I have a right to parade it if I want. Just as Christian people hang up Christmas decorations, such as crosses and so forth. They have a reason for it, I have mine. And it's not really much of a concern to others who wants to have a parade really in my opinion. If you want to have a parade for absolutely no reason at all? Go for it. More power to 'ya.

Yes, writing letters helps change laws, sometimes anyway. But it's more than changing laws in my opinion. A big part of it too for me, is just getting peoples attention saying hey, we're out here, and don't give two shits what you think. If that makes sense? Not in a disrespectful manner (Though some people do take it that far) just yeah. It doesn't even have to be for other people. It can be just for each individual, or just for the LGBT community to celebrate who we are.

Quote:
I don't think there are any gay people who don't know that the Bible is firmly against gay sex. To talk to religious people out it, to bring up sexuality unnecessarily is asking for trouble! I like the language Daniel used: immodest. It is! I'm not gonna talk about any guys I have have kissed/want to kiss. It's immodest to talk about that, just as it's immodest for you to talk about girls you've kissed/want to kiss. There are ways to obtain civil rights. Marching for gay rights is NOT equivalent to a Pride Parade. They're just not the same.
Somewhat. But there are gay people who don't believe it's against gay sex. While I don't know the Bible well enough to speak against it. And it is asking for trouble. But I do think things like this? The debates? Get the awareness out about it. Just like TWLOHA if you're familiar with the organization. Yeah, not everyone can relate to teen suicide/self harm. But it's the awareness saying people are out there.

Quote:
The persecution and discrimination faced by LGBT+ people right now is NOT the same as that faced by black people. It is the discrimination of invisibility, whereas African Americans faced active persecution. Gay people can use the same water fountains as straight people, live in the same neighbourhoods (sometimes with difficulty with neighbours), and work the same jobs for the same pay as straight people, as long as they behave within the confines of polite day-to-day interaction, as we all should if we expect basic rights and freedoms. Yes, LBGT+ people still get beat up, killed, tortured, made fun of, hated. It's tragic that people are not more accepting. But is a Pride Parade really going to change that? If anything, I think it might aggravate hate. I don't think Pride Parades win allies.
Maybe they're not entirely the same (Which isn't entirely the point I was getting across if you were referring to my previous post, I was just saying people can make a parade no matter who they are really, and what they've gone through) But either way, the Pride Parade isn't necessarily just to change that. Which really, again the awareness part does help us. Show we won't be repressed.
But LGBT too have stuff that can be pointed out as simply awful and needs to be address (As you somewhat mentioned, but I'm just having trouble seeing how it was worse for black people to be killed, tortured, etc.) Yes, there was more blatent discrimination. But I think the idea behind it relates directly to each other. What about Mathew Shepard? And I do have to say, without everything America went through with African-Americans, it probably helped the LGBT people now.

Though another factor to remember, you can see someone's skin color. You can't see someones sexuality unless they choose to show it.

Quote:
Tangentially, let's take a look at other groups that have been persecuted recently:
Tutsis in Rwanda are a small ethnic minority. Without going into too much historical detail, I'll just say that in the '90s, the Hutus decided to purge the country of Tutsis, starting with Tusti military personnel and evolving into one of the largest genocides in 20th century history. Do we see Tutsi Pride parades in Rwanda today? Or in it's sister country, Burundi, which had similar ethnic wars? No.
When Jews in Nazi Germany were being systematically deprived of their rights and freedoms (under the Nurenberg laws) and then killed, did they shout their identity from rooftops, even though "Jewish" defines many more aspects of a person's live than a sexual orientation does. Do we see Jew Pride Parades? Well, OK, we sometimes see Jewish parades now, but they're always about the fighting between Israel and Palestine, not about past injustices and the current discrimination that still exists.
When protestants were being killed in England in the 1600s, did they introduce themselves "Hi, I'm Edwin and I'm Protestant?" No.
If these people would like to have a parade, they're more than welcome to, aren't they? Though in Rwanda, is not the United States therefore laws and different and I can't say I know about their laws to parade around. But in America, they can come here and parade if they so choose. Just because everyone else is choosing not to have a parade, does that mean LGBT people should conform?

Quote:
If a law is unjust, we can write letters to our representatives in government and we can march peacefully against the specific injustices. When people wanted pot decriminalized, they didn't get hundreds of people high together to march through the streets. They put up signs and spoke to their MPs. Likewise, since LGBT people want laws changed, they should write to their representatives and organize specific marches. Pride Parades are neither. They are just celebrations of a lifestyle that most people (judging by current laws), whether justly or not, consider to be immoral. I think, in this case, public opinion will change after the legal one.
We do write to people. All the time. Did African-American's win their battle, just by writing letters? A friend of mine said, that sometimes you have to even risk your life to get what you want. To get the attention that will change something.
Like I am curious as to where we would be today without the brutal murder of Mathew Shepard. Sometimes drastic action needs to be taken.

Though I also do not see people getting taunted for not being able to legally smoke pot as much as I do with LGBT people. If at all.



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Re: Why care? - June 9th 2009, 12:07 PM

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I know this is a little off topic, but I just had to say that's totally not true. We have big parades for Christmas, Earth Day, Free Tibet, Victoria Day, and Canada Day.
Oh, okay, I was just going by my own experience. The only parades I've ever seen or participated in were the Gay Pride parades and the Christmas parades. My mistake.
   
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Re: Why care? - June 10th 2009, 06:36 AM

Gidig, I'm not against parades. I love parades! But parades are for celebrating things that a community wants to celebrate. Like Come Home Week parade in Nova Scotia, or a Fireman's parade, cause everyone likes firemen (fire fighters). The reason nobody else chooses to have parades is because they know that nobody else really cares, or people are actively against them. There are no Tutsi parades in Rwanda because it'd raise ethnic tensions. The Tutsi all know how happy they are to be alive and the Hutu are all aware that they almost killed them but didn't, regardless of their feelings towards the massacres.

It's not exactly the same situation, but it's close. I can understand that there are a lot of self-loathing LGBT people around (heck, I visit the LBGT+ forum on TH enough to know that!) and it's great to get the word out to them and offer them support. The comparison to TWLOHA is a good one, in that respect. So parades are nice for that. But parades are also effective in...well, doing exactly what you want to do, which is tell people that you're here and you're not going away. The trouble is, when you parade, there isn't really a distinction between "We're here! Just so you know! Nice to meet you. Don't try to oppress us cause you're not gonna break our spirit!" and "We're here MUTHAF***A!!! You tried to striaghten us out, but we're still those flaming ____ you hate!!!" And, considering that most homophobes are hostile to LGBT paraders, it's two guesses which interpretation they're likely to choose. And your first guess doesn't count.

If you want to have Pride Parades in The Castro, or in some parts of Toronto or New York, power to you. If you want a bunch of members in the LGBT+ community to dress up together and parade down streets where a bunch of those members live, I think that's awesome. The same way prodominantly black neighbourhoods have MLK Jr. day...well, I don't know if celebrations is the right word, but events outside, certainly. But if the point of a parade is to celebrate, then celebrate it with people who are happy for you! And if people aren't happy for you, then what do you care about them?

I think Day of Silence is an entirely differnt issue. It's a way of commemorating Matthew Sheppard, for one thing, and using him as a kind of "unknown soldier" (except that we know his identity) for all the other victims of crimes against LGBT+ people. Day of Silence, for one thing, is inclusive. I participate, even though I'm not lesbian or obviously tans-anything. It's not hard for anyone to be against violence, and it invites people of all orientations and identities to take part. On the other hand, I'd have a hard time participating in a Pride Parade. And frankly, if I'm trying to take the bus back from school and a major street's blocked off and I have to figure out where my bus got rerouted because a bunch of people wanted to parade something honestly don't care about...well, that irriates me a little.

To be honest, I don't really understand the emotion of wanting to tell just anyone, indiscriminately that you're gay and don't care what they think. First of all, to do that assumes a climate of hostility-by-default towards homosexuals/homosexuality, which I was fortunate enough to avoid in my household and my friend groups. So, while I understand intellectually that in many places there is hostility-by-default towards LGBT+ people, I don't really FEEL it, so can't possibly understand. But also, I mean, if you had equal rights under the law and didn't encounter open hostility when you held hands with your girlfriend, why would YOU care who knew you were gay? I mean, really. It's easy to prove that you're here, despite all the persecution. Just keep on being gay! Keep on going out with girls, going to bars (if you're allowed in) to hook up with girls etc. Why go out of your way to tell people?
I'm Jewish. There's no way you'd be able to tell by looking at me. In fact, if I didn't debate here so much, you probably wouldn't even know. Cause, until we start debating things, it's really not any of your business. The candles I light, in the privacy of my own home, affect nobody other than me and those in my home with me at the time. What about in public, when I'm seen *gasp* entering a synagogue! It's possible that some anti-semite will see me and kill me for it. Or maybe that anti-semite will blow up the synagogue while I'm inside. But do I feel the need to tell people that I'm Jewish, still here, in spite of millenia of persecution by numerous cultures, and that I don't give two shits what they think? No. Not really. If it comes up in conversation ("Bacon, ham or sausage with that, hon?"), it comes up. Sometimes it makes people uncomfortable. Sometimes it doesn't. It's not obvious when you look at me. I could "pass" for not-Jewish if I tried.
It's not the same situation--not by a longshot--but there are similarities.

And of course letter-writing isn't going to change things by itself. Like I said, marches are a great idea. Hand me a sign, let's go to D.C., or Ottawa, or London. You name the city, I'll meet you there. Pride Parades just aren't productive, though. They aggravate your enemies and can alienate your friends. That's what my legalization of pot comparison was about. Not about the violence or injustice, just about the way to get things done. Pot wasn't decriminalized because of Stoner Pride parades, but because of demonstrations in Ottawa and serious communication with elected reps in government.


--EV--
Congrats Canada's Juniors! 5 in a row!
Last Sunday morning, the sunshine felt like rain.
Week before, they all seemed the same.
And oh, I ain't wastin' time no more
Cause time goes by like hurricanes, and faster things.
--The Allman Brothers Band


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Re: Why care? - June 10th 2009, 02:14 PM

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Originally Posted by SillyEvee View Post
I don't think there are any gay people who don't know that the Bible is firmly against gay sex. To talk to religious people out it, to bring up sexuality unnecessarily is asking for trouble! I like the language Daniel used: immodest. It is! I'm not gonna talk about any guys I have have kissed/want to kiss. It's immodest to talk about that, just as it's immodest for you to talk about girls you've kissed/want to kiss. There are ways to obtain civil rights. Marching for gay rights is NOT equivalent to a Pride Parade. They're just not the same.
This is a bit off topic but if you mean what I think you mean here, well I find it a little sad. Do you mean that you aren't going to talk to a person you just met or a stranger online about that stuff? Or do you seriously never talk about it with anyone? If it's the latter I just find that sad. Seriously I may not have many girl friends but with those I do it is so much fun to talk about cute guys. I always thought that that's what you do with good friends.

Anyway I get what you are saying about the parades it makes a lot of sense.


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Re: Why care? - June 10th 2009, 02:58 PM

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Originally Posted by SillyEvee View Post
It's not exactly the same situation, but it's close. I can understand that there are a lot of self-loathing LGBT people around (heck, I visit the LBGT+ forum on TH enough to know that!) and it's great to get the word out to them and offer them support. The comparison to TWLOHA is a good one, in that respect. So parades are nice for that. But parades are also effective in...well, doing exactly what you want to do, which is tell people that you're here and you're not going away. The trouble is, when you parade, there isn't really a distinction between "We're here! Just so you know! Nice to meet you. Don't try to oppress us cause you're not gonna break our spirit!" and "We're here MUTHAF***A!!! You tried to striaghten us out, but we're still those flaming ____ you hate!!!" And, considering that most homophobes are hostile to LGBT paraders, it's two guesses which interpretation they're likely to choose. And your first guess doesn't count.
Because people need to know we're here to some extent. For some, ignorance is bliss and ignorance is the first step to prejudice aswell. I've been on gay pride parades and they have never been confrontrational and all "we're unbreakable in spirit!" sense. It's bneen more of a social thing for all members of the LGBT community to take part of and for once, be themselves in a sense. Some people who are choked by prejudice never get to fully be themselves and Pride Parades give people that chance...and to meet other likeminded people, make new friends and get support- it's almost like a social event on a grander scale.

Quote:
On the other hand, I'd have a hard time participating in a Pride Parade. And frankly, if I'm trying to take the bus back from school and a major street's blocked off and I have to figure out where my bus got rerouted because a bunch of people wanted to parade something honestly don't care about...well, that irriates me a little.
I've known plenty of people to take part in pride parades despite not being LGBT or anything. Pride is welcoming to everybody to take part and is not LGBT exclusive. And as for your buses being re-routed...well, that's life. I'm personally sick of having my plans disturbed every time easter rolls around because people are observing the day *inside*. I'm sick of different Easter and Christmas schedules that mess up the way I travel and live for some mythical man I don't even believe in...but I'm not suggesting we go and cancel christmas.

Quote:
But also, I mean, if you had equal rights under the law and didn't encounter open hostility when you held hands with your girlfriend, why would YOU care who knew you were gay? I mean, really. It's easy to prove that you're here, despite all the persecution. Just keep on being gay! Keep on going out with girls, going to bars (if you're allowed in) to hook up with girls etc. Why go out of your way to tell people?
Because that's all so easy to say. We don't have equal rights. A majority of us do deal with open hostility and even more have to deal with people constantly insulting gay people. Hell, just look at the english language- gay is now a word with negative connotations with kids in particular. We will keep on being gay, but we will also keep up our fight to be finally judged as equal.

Quote:
And of course letter-writing isn't going to change things by itself. Like I said, marches are a great idea. Hand me a sign, let's go to D.C., or Ottawa, or London. You name the city, I'll meet you there. Pride Parades just aren't productive, though. They aggravate your enemies and can alienate your friends. That's what my legalization of pot comparison was about. Not about the violence or injustice, just about the way to get things done. Pot wasn't decriminalized because of Stoner Pride parades, but because of demonstrations in Ottawa and serious communication with elected reps in government.
Pride parades are very constructive. Nobody got anywhere by turning in small numbers or writing letters. You have to turn out in force. A letter to a politican is all well and good, but you'll get a polite snub. A letter to a politican who then flicks on the TV and sees hundreds of thousands of people marching for the same thing- now that gets their attention. Whether it be for moral or political reasons.

As it was once said...“When an individual is protesting society's refusal to acknowledge his dignity as a human being, his very act of protest confers dignity on him.”


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22:36 [Ergg] It's so much better to be a girl
22:36 [Ergg] IMO
22:36 [Jamie] Naw. Two words: Periods. Childbirth.
22:36 [Ergg] One word: Birth control
22:37 [Jamie] That's two words.
   
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Re: Why care? - June 10th 2009, 07:30 PM

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Originally Posted by SillyEvee View Post
Gidig, I'm not against parades. I love parades! But parades are for celebrating things that a community wants to celebrate. Like Come Home Week parade in Nova Scotia, or a Fireman's parade, cause everyone likes firemen (fire fighters). The reason nobody else chooses to have parades is because they know that nobody else really cares, or people are actively against them. There are no Tutsi parades in Rwanda because it'd raise ethnic tensions. The Tutsi all know how happy they are to be alive and the Hutu are all aware that they almost killed them but didn't, regardless of their feelings towards the massacres.
Okay, I do have to say first, I think it's amazing you can have a civilized debate. Not that no one else in the forum is, but it's nice that you give reasons and all that kind of stuff. Just wanted to point that out. xD

I guess I'm a bit confused on how it hurts to have a Pride Parade. And LGBT to me, is a community. Therefore it's what my community wants to celebrate. Whether no one else cares or not, there's still no reason for us not to have a parade that I can see. As I said, if these other people want to have a parade, they are certainly more than welcome to. Just as I think KKK should be allowed to 'parade'. While I don't agree with them, it's their right, especially in America. (Getting into the whole, where it gets violent is another story) Heck, if five people had something about them they liked, and felt like parading, they can too!

The other thing about PrideFEST, is not only is a parade (I'm not sure about places other than Denver) but it's just a cool place to hang out for a weekend. Like, I'm planning to stay there all weekend. There's booths, you can meet other people, and people don't assume you're straight. And in my experience, they don't assume you're gay either. (I'll talk about the whole assuming thing later.)

Again I bring up the point that first, these other people are in an entirely other country. I speak of America, seeing as, I've only really lived here. I can't really speak much for Canada either, but by my understanding in the US and Canada you can parade away until your heart is content if you have all the necessary paperwork and so forth. Where in another country, this may not be the case. Where they can't parade, which turns into a whole other matter.

Quote:
It's not exactly the same situation, but it's close. I can understand that there are a lot of self-loathing LGBT people around (heck, I visit the LBGT+ forum on TH enough to know that!) and it's great to get the word out to them and offer them support. The comparison to TWLOHA is a good one, in that respect. So parades are nice for that. But parades are also effective in...well, doing exactly what you want to do, which is tell people that you're here and you're not going away. The trouble is, when you parade, there isn't really a distinction between "We're here! Just so you know! Nice to meet you. Don't try to oppress us cause you're not gonna break our spirit!" and "We're here MUTHAF***A!!! You tried to striaghten us out, but we're still those flaming ____ you hate!!!" And, considering that most homophobes are hostile to LGBT paraders, it's two guesses which interpretation they're likely to choose. And your first guess doesn't count.
Let me again refer to the KKK. I don't think there's a right way to interpret that. But they're legally, and to me morall, allowed to parade. Just because I don't believe in their veiws, and I take offense to what they have to say, doesn't mean the get different rights than I believe I should have. (Again if they're lynching people, that's different)
If people don't agree with LGBT people, that's fine. Don't watch our parade, don't come. We don't force you to.

Quote:
If you want to have Pride Parades in The Castro, or in some parts of Toronto or New York, power to you. If you want a bunch of members in the LGBT+ community to dress up together and parade down streets where a bunch of those members live, I think that's awesome. The same way prodominantly black neighbourhoods have MLK Jr. day...well, I don't know if celebrations is the right word, but events outside, certainly. But if the point of a parade is to celebrate, then celebrate it with people who are happy for you! And if people aren't happy for you, then what do you care about them?
I like the last part of this, and agree with you. Though we don't only do it to get other peoples attention. I know I'm excited about the PrideFEST just because I'm going to have a freaking blast there. And (totally surprisingly ) I've never met an out gay person who gives me shit for being who I am. But, why are we only supposed to have parades in places predominately LGBT? That doesn't entirely make sense to me. Perhaps explain a bit more? Just because our LGBT community isn't as high of a ratio as The Castro, doesn't mean what we can do changes.

Quote:
I think Day of Silence is an entirely differnt issue. It's a way of commemorating Matthew Sheppard, for one thing, and using him as a kind of "unknown soldier" (except that we know his identity) for all the other victims of crimes against LGBT+ people. Day of Silence, for one thing, is inclusive. I participate, even though I'm not lesbian or obviously tans-anything. It's not hard for anyone to be against violence, and it invites people of all orientations and identities to take part. On the other hand, I'd have a hard time participating in a Pride Parade. And frankly, if I'm trying to take the bus back from school and a major street's blocked off and I have to figure out where my bus got rerouted because a bunch of people wanted to parade something honestly don't care about...well, that irriates me a little.
I could care less about Christmas, I'm not Christian. They block off roads. But I'm like, okay, if they want to have this huge parade, that's fine. And get slightly annoyed and move on with life.
And we have a lot of straight people who participate in PrideFEST here. Like a lot of my friends are joining me even though they're straight.

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To be honest, I don't really understand the emotion of wanting to tell just anyone, indiscriminately that you're gay and don't care what they think. First of all, to do that assumes a climate of hostility-by-default towards homosexuals/homosexuality, which I was fortunate enough to avoid in my household and my friend groups. So, while I understand intellectually that in many places there is hostility-by-default towards LGBT+ people, I don't really FEEL it, so can't possibly understand. But also, I mean, if you had equal rights under the law and didn't encounter open hostility when you held hands with your girlfriend, why would YOU care who knew you were gay? I mean, really. It's easy to prove that you're here, despite all the persecution. Just keep on being gay! Keep on going out with girls, going to bars (if you're allowed in) to hook up with girls etc. Why go out of your way to tell people?
I'm Jewish. There's no way you'd be able to tell by looking at me. In fact, if I didn't debate here so much, you probably wouldn't even know. Cause, until we start debating things, it's really not any of your business. The candles I light, in the privacy of my own home, affect nobody other than me and those in my home with me at the time. What about in public, when I'm seen *gasp* entering a synagogue! It's possible that some anti-semite will see me and kill me for it. Or maybe that anti-semite will blow up the synagogue while I'm inside. But do I feel the need to tell people that I'm Jewish, still here, in spite of millenia of persecution by numerous cultures, and that I don't give two shits what they think? No. Not really. If it comes up in conversation ("Bacon, ham or sausage with that, hon?"), it comes up. Sometimes it makes people uncomfortable. Sometimes it doesn't. It's not obvious when you look at me. I could "pass" for not-Jewish if I tried.
It's not the same situation--not by a longshot--but there are similarities.
I agree they have similarities. But... I've been sitting here for a while trying to think of how to explain this. I'm becoming more and more happy with who I am. People don't assume I'm Christian. Or Jewish. Or Athiest. I wish people wouldn't assume I'm straight. Even if they don't know who I really am? I hate that each time I want someone to know me, it's a huge deal to come out to them. To explain not only that I identify myself with the LGBT community but that I'm not straight. That's who I am. Just as much as my personality, which I don't have to come out and tell you what my personality is, you talk to me and you know. Or you know what I'm not. While I don't think this will ever be fixed, it's extremely irritating. It also leads to making friends who in the end might leave you simply because if your sexuality. And that hurts. A lot. If people didn't assume I was straight, they wouldn't make friends with me to begin with.

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And of course letter-writing isn't going to change things by itself. Like I said, marches are a great idea. Hand me a sign, let's go to D.C., or Ottawa, or London. You name the city, I'll meet you there. Pride Parades just aren't productive, though. They aggravate your enemies and can alienate your friends. That's what my legalization of pot comparison was about. Not about the violence or injustice, just about the way to get things done. Pot wasn't decriminalized because of Stoner Pride parades, but because of demonstrations in Ottawa and serious communication with elected reps in government.
I suppose I did make it sound like this is the only reason for parades. But really, I'm excited to have some fun really.
If the Stoners want to have a pride parade, more power to them.

Yes to change laws requires serious communication. First, parades are a way of communication. Not as strong as lighting their house on fire, but a bit safer. (Okay, or not as strong as writing them a strongly worded letter ) But still communciation.
And I personally believe all these things go hand in hand. Showing we're not leaving, that we're here, writing letters, talking to elected reps, and all of this altogether is what is going to essentially help.



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Re: Why care? - June 10th 2009, 10:06 PM

For the sake of this post, when I talk about girls, that's me being gay. For clarity, in awareness to my gender on here, I was born a girl, and I identify as a genderqueer female. I have looked mostly like a boy since I was a kid. So my experiences are a mix of liking girls (my sexuality), and some stuff on my gender.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
What I do have a problem with is the fact that many people in the GLBTQ community seem to be somewhat fixated on their sexuality.

What do I mean? It seems to me that the first thing out of a lot of these individuals' mouths is "Hi, my name's ______. Just so you know, I'm gay." Literally, in the same breath as their introduction, they're telling you their sexual preference. And I'm just standing there thinking, okay... umm... that's nice for you, but is that all you see yourself as?

And the people I'm talking about are wonderful people who I really enjoy spending time with. However, before I got to know them as people, they seemed to find it necessary to fill me in on all of the nuances of their sexual preference/gender identity. Although I'm glad that they felt they could confide in me, it really didn't make any difference. Its not who they are. Its just a very small part of it. Why should it take up so much of their conscious thought? Why should they spend so much of their time agonizing over it?

The truth is you just don't see straight people doing that.
Just to restate someone's earlier comment, its not about flaunting. It's sorta a tension break for some people. Some people want to get it out the way, because then they know where they'll stand with a person from the start. I've never introduced myself as 'Hi, Im Tegan, Im queer'. To straights, or non-straights, as far as I remember. Nor have I experienced anyone doing so. I have experienced a straight (or more then one) person introduce themselves as straight, when most of the people round them seem to be gay. We like people to read us right, including our identities (I'll talk more on identities in a minute). I personally have come out fairly quickly in some situations, such as within the first week of uni when I was living in shared accomadation with strangers. Was I flaunting it? No, it was just relevant. I was involved in the LGBTUA+ society, I was hoping to get a gf at some point (though failed at this), and wanted to feel free to share my experiences if the situation allowed, without having the 'omg you kissed a girl' nonsense.

As far as my identities go, my sexual and gender identity are fairly large in my life. Perhaps due to the internal conflicts I've experienced, the external homophobia, and the fear of losing my family if I ever told them. I'm also a Christian, Canadian (most frequently first identity I share with people due to my accent), British, middle class, a student, obessive compulsive, etc. All of these things I do share. On the other hand, I do admittedly spend a lot of time thinking about my sexuality, because it was made important for me from society, both gay and straight (I'm not technically gay, straight or bi, and I don't want to be labelled by others). As for my gender, its something I struggle with, because I struggle to find a solution, other then try make others understand. I have non-binary gender, and as of yet, very few people know what this is.

It's not actually a small part of me, or my life. Our experiences forge who we are. If I've had a lot of experiences in life derive from my sexual and gender identity, it will have had an impact on me. And trust me, I've had a lot. I would not be the same person, at all, if I was a normal straight cis-girl (non-trans). Also, I'm a political gay, with a lot of gay friends, so I do a lot of things as a hobby/interest basically involving it. It's important to me. My queer identity is probably more important to me then straight people's straightness, because it is different, and it's not just an implicit reality of life in the society I grew up in.

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Originally Posted by ThereIsHope View Post
Do we have huge parades and celebrations for being straight? If you're gay, fine... I don't care much. But why all of the unnecessary movements and stuff? Chances are, if someone doesn't like gay people for some reason, coming across a gay pride celebration isn't going to make them anymore tolerant. In fact, I think it would be likely to do the exact opposite. I don't really care what other people do with their lives because it doesn't affect me... But I think that if gay people want the right to marry, be taken seriously, considered as normal people, etc., there needs not be so much screaming, "I'm gay!"
First this post makes me want to make a comment on the 'screaming Im gay' sorta ideology. A) often the people doing it are not percieving it in the same way you may be, due to their personal experiences. On the other hand, its an issue of self-acceptance. Sometimes, particularly when you are still an out-group, you need to have self acceptance, to have a healthy view of yourself. Some people do this by externally displaying it, as a result.

Second off, Pride is a Protest. Gay pride parades and junk like that come from way early on in the movement. They are suppose to be a form of peaceful protest. In the West, peaceful protest is a right we have, and use politically. Unfortunately in recent years, there's been a commercialisation of Pride, and its straying from its original purpose. This is an issue acknowledge within the movement itself, particularly amongst the student movement. We currently have a campaign to take these things back to the grass roots, and politicise them again. If you are at all interested, this site has some info:

Pride is a Protest

This year at Birmingham Pride, we took a focus on 'Say no to Facism', effectively protesting against the BNP and urging votes against them. The BNP are a racist, homophobic, transphobic, nationalist, facist, neo-loving political party, that is getting increasing popular.

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Originally Posted by TheKnight View Post
You tell me: "Why does it matter to you what people do in their own bedrooms"

I respond: "It doesn't matter to me that they do it in privacy. What bothers me is that they want to have a parade about it on the streets of the city I live in."
If society were fine with us having sex with who we wanted, and allowed us the same rights, and safety of equal levels of PDA (like hand holding), there less likely will be a need, other then perhaps the celebration of identity, and community. Even then, I don't think these things will be as common or around when we get to that point (it might happen, it maybe never will). There may be a day when queers are not such an out-group, and the social identity may become weaker. These are just traits of social groups If queers are grouped together, this is going to happen. And they are groups due to the fact straights a majority in-group.

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I have no problem with what gay people do in private, but there's no need to broadcast it. There's no need to go around telling someone. I'm not saying be someone you're not, but just because you're being yourself doesn't mean that you have to tell everyone you meet about yourself. It doesn't mean you need to go have a parade about it, it doesn't mean you need to shove it in my face. That's my point. I like Strawberry Cheesecake, but I don't go around having a parade, or telling people, or flaunting it because it really has nothing to do with anyone except for myself and the person who makes it.
Have you been bullied repeatly in school because you like strawberry cheesecake? I didn't even come out to myself till I was 17, and then not to the general public until I was 19. But I got bullied almost every day at school for being a lesbian, tranny or man. Have you had abuse shouted at you in the street for liking it? I doubt it, if you have, you live in an area with an unusual hatred for strawberry cheesecake, consider moving, most places don't care. I however have been to lots of places around the UK and got crap for being gay, even if I wasn't vocalising it. Have you ever been physically attacked for it? If you have, then I don't know what to say. But I've been slapped, had beer and bricks thrown at me, and recieved noticebally threatening body language, such as obvious clenched fists (oh, ironically this was when I had been read as a boy, because I was with a boy at the time. Oh, and another occassion where I wasn't even being gay with a friend). And I got hit by people in school, because they just assumed I liked girls. These are all things that happen when I'm not even being open about my sexuality. My point is, your example is bad. You liking cheesecake, doesn't cause issues in your life due to discrimination. Why should I have to silently sit by and have this happen to me. If people are going to attack me any way, because what they think I'm doing in my bedroom, why not be allowed. At least then I'll know who my friends are.



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I've never heard of a hetero pride parade...I have friends who talk to me about their struggles (which is all fine and good). However, what I have also noticed is that if I engage in a conversation with gay person, they will find some way to bring it up within the first few moments of the conversation.
If you are the majority group in an area, and the dominant/most powerful group in society, why do you need one? Like, really?

And would you be annoyed if any of your straight friends said something that's suggest they are straight? Like the mentionning of a partner, crush, 'cute girl/boy', etc? Of course I don't mean the explicit details.

Oh, and by the way, the gays you know may not be representative of the whole community. My co-workers only found out due to first gossip, and then as an explanation as to why a guy and I weren't dating.

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Trying to compare black rights to gay rights is simply disrespectful. While it's still bad, the amount of gay people who have been persecuted does not in any way compare to the millions of Africans who were murdered in the slave trade, the millions of blacks mistreated in America, and the many more millions of lives ruined simply because a person is a few shades darker. It's different, to say that it isn't is to not know what you're talking about.
Considering the small amount of gays there are in the world, the amount of gays the Nazi's killed in the Holocaust is impressive:

Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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In the 1920s, mainstream medical researchers in Germany implanted testicles from corpses into the bodies of homosexual men, usually without their knowledge. The idea was to boost testosterone levels.
Ok, I don't know how common that was, but gay people have recieved horrible treatment in the past for being gay, including electric shock aversion therapy. Reorientation therapy has shown to be mentally harmful to most people (APA website, don't have time to find it right now)

BBC NEWS | Magazine | When gays were 'cured'

Being gay is illegal in many countries still. Some countries offically have the death penalty. In other countries, you have a good chance to be killed, or have people allowed to kill you, even if their is no death penalty.

LGBT rights by country or territory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How can you say gays don't compare to blacks, but they compare to your liking of cheesecake?

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That's fine, marry a girl. But don't ask me to recognize your marriage as valid when I don't believe that it is.
If the KKK don't believe in interracial marriages are valid, is it ok to not recognise them as such?


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What gay people desire is for others to accept what they do. I have no problem accepting a gay person as a human being (and no religious person that I know has a problem with it). The thing is when they want us to accept what they do, when people talk about their relationships and get mad when other people don't want to hear about it.
I grew up in the Church, most people don't even accept us as equal human being. Considering us disordered, gross, dirty, or worse sinners then anyone else, is not accepting us as equal human being. And this isn't about making you think we arent sinning really, its more trying to live in a society that'll treat us right. You don't hold agnostics usually in such contempt. (that you wasnt a you you, but a generalised one)

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I don't think you understand. I'm not saying hide who you are, but certainly don't flaunt it. I don't go around talking about how I'm straight, and I don't even go around talking about sex because (surprised as you might be) I think it's immodest to talk about sex in an inappropriate circumstance.
Have you never told someone about a girl you've dated, or if you haven't dated yet, a girl you liked? And what counts as an appropriate time? And saying you are gay isn't really explicit.

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My only problem with gay people is the issue of modesty, the thing is that immodesty isn't something that only gay people deal with, but most people are immodest. I, personally, have a problem with all immodesty and gay people simply happen to be a tad more immodest then others.
I don't know if I agree with this, but regardless, if this is so, it'd make sense. We don't have marriage to aim at, society deems us sexual deviants, perverts, non-committed, promiscous, and crude. Self-fufilling prophesy and the lack of the more modest straight social norms, logically would make this seem more likely.

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What cause is there to bring attention to? I have a friend who is gay, he has a boyfriend, and has a happy homosexual relationship. I have to say that he is my favorite gay person in the world because he doesn't go around trying to bring attention to the "cause."
Good for him, but I don't want to live in a world of hate. I shouldn't get crap in the street because of how I look, particularly if I'm modestly dressed in plain colours. You have to understand, even if you don't do that, some people do, and that means I still have a problem.

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I think a lot of the reason that some straight people have a problem with gay people is the fact that a gay person will say that what they do is a private matter and then they'll try to bring attention to it.
I claim to be a queer poster child? I say my sex life is as private as any straight person's I know, I talk about it to my friends, and not strangers, unless sex lives are being discussed by them. My queer identity is a largely not private, and that's due to all the things I've mentionned above. When people know I'm queer, I feel more comfortable.

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Wrong. I have been oppressed by society because I have different religious beliefs then 99.001% of the population. I get called stupid names, I get told that I'm a freak or that I'm stupid. Yet at the same time I'm not gonna go hold a parade for my "cause".


It's different. I've been picked on for being a Christian too. But I've never felt my safety was at risk for it. I've just been a bit annoyed and frustrated. And to be fair, as a Christian, you probably should be shouting it

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Why not? Because I have self-esteem. I don't need others to accept me to know that I am valuable. The gay people I know with high self-esteem are the same way. The don't need to "come out" to everyone they know or anything like that because they know that who they are and their value is not dependent on what other people think.


Different situations, interests and directions will result in different actions needing to be taken. With my gender identity, it's almost impossible not to come out if I have pronoun requests, or when people ask me if I'm a boy or girl (it happens). And I'm going to have to come out to family at the very least, if I get a long term partner. Who, yes, I'd like to hold hands with in the street without getting hurt. And if I was in America, someone I'd like to be allowed to adopt a kid with me (currently some places only allow the one parent to adopt), or at least be allowed family visiting rights, etc.



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If all gay people were concerned about was getting the same rights, they wouldn't care what it was called, but instead they wanted it to be called a marriage. Why? Because, as I said earlier, they want their actions to be accepted.
History shows equal but seperate don't work.


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Originally Posted by SillyEvee View Post
I can understand being proud of who you are, and being sick and tired of discrimination and the bull you've had to put up with as a non-striaght person. However, it does bother ME, as a non-discriminatory person who believes that having gay sex is wrong. I think it puts distance between you and G-d and therefore, you shouldn't do it. However, your realtionship with G-d is your business (and His) and your relationship with your sexual partner(s) is your business (and your partner's/s'). I believe gay couples should get all the same rights under secular state law as hetero couples. So why parade about, telling everyone that? Write letters to your member of parliament (or American equivalent--state legislature?). Write to Obama. Talk to people whom you actually know. THEY'RE the ones for whom it actually matters. *I* couldn't care less. I don't even know what you look like, so why would I want to know your sexuality (for purposes outside debating ).
I was saying to my friend I quite like what I've seen of you in gay thread, in relation to how I would like more conservative religious people to be.

And we do write letters. At the same time, political movements have always held protests, etc.

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Originally Posted by SillyEvee View Post
Gidig, I'm not against parades. I love parades! But parades are for celebrating things that a community wants to celebrate. Like Come Home Week parade in Nova Scotia, or a Fireman's parade, cause everyone likes firemen (fire fighters). The reason nobody else chooses to have parades is because they know that nobody else really cares, or people are actively against them. There are no Tutsi parades in Rwanda because it'd raise ethnic tensions. The Tutsi all know how happy they are to be alive and the Hutu are all aware that they almost killed them but didn't, regardless of their feelings towards the massacres.
In the UK, most of our gay parades are in the gay villages mostly. And it is celebraty what those community want to celebrate at least. They are actually meant to be celebrations of diversity as well as protest. But as I said earlier, meanings have been lost :/

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But also, I mean, if you had equal rights under the law and didn't encounter open hostility when you held hands with your girlfriend, why would YOU care who knew you were gay? I mean, really. It's easy to prove that you're here, despite all the persecution. Just keep on being gay! Keep on going out with girls, going to bars (if you're allowed in) to hook up with girls etc. Why go out of your way to tell people?
I wouldn't? But being alive still doesn't mean much. And some of us aren't still alive. And our suicide rates are high. Actually, in reference for the Jewish thing, there's some belief orthadox gay Jews have a higher rate then gqays in general.

But my personal safety has been put in harms way, I have a risk of losing family, and financial support, and frends, and my church rejecting me. It's not just a matter what people think of me. And a lot of people have shared my experiences.

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It's not obvious when you look at me. I could "pass" for not-Jewish if I tried.
Why should you have to? Why should I have to pass as straight, or cisgendered? Why should different mean bad?
   
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