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View Poll Results: What do you believe is true of homosexuality?
"NATURE" - Homosexuality is a trait inherent in certain individuals. 26 65.00%
"NURTURE" - Homosexuality is a result of external factors in the individual's environment. 7 17.50%
"NEITHER" - Self-explanatory. Please elaborate in the thread! :P 7 17.50%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 08:23 AM

Lately I've been pretty confused as to why homosexuals exist. From an evolutionary standpoint, isn't it a bad thing that they can't reproduce? There's the key principle of natural selection, which is basically the process by which heritable traits that promote survival and reproduction become more common. So if there was a "gay gene" of sorts, wouldn't it have disappeared a long time ago, due to the fact that the people who inherit it are sexually attracted in such a way that they can't have their own children?

I personally have nothing against homosexuals, even though I'm a Christian. However, I also support evolution as a scientific theory and as an essential part of biology (yes, it's possible to be both a faithful believer in Christ and a strong supporter of evolution - feel free to ask me about that sometime :P), and it just seems that homosexuality defies natural selection and therefore the whole process of evolution itself... what are your opinions on this? It would be interesting to see where this discussion leads.

Oh, and please vote on the poll in this thread! The main question I'm asking: Do you believe in a "natural" origin of homosexuality (thus indicating the possible existence of a "gay gene"), the idea that homosexuals are "nurtured" (indicating that homosexuality is a product of external factors), or neither? If you chose the third option, feel free to explain why.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 08:45 AM

You'll find that acts of homosexuality exist outside of human society. Leading me to believe that it is totally natural and people should stop making a big deal out of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...exual_behavior

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...gayanimal.html

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604...ience-science/


You'll also find that this thread has been done over and over again.
http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f38-c...hy-people-gay/


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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 09:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaFin View Post
You'll find that acts of homosexuality exist outside of human society. Leading me to believe that it is totally natural and people should stop making a big deal out of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...exual_behavior

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...gayanimal.html

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604...ience-science/


You'll also find that this thread has been done over and over again.
http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f38-c...hy-people-gay/
One word: Bonobos.


   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 12:59 PM

It's not just our species that are homosexual, bats have the highest rate of homosexuality in animals. Surely this implies it's more of a nature thing rather than nurture as most bats, and other animals, experience the same conditions when developing.
However, I think nurture plays a part in it too with humans as some people can be influenced by the media and people around them.


   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 02:29 PM

i've always been a bit undecided on this topic.. but i'm leaning towards thinking that it's nurture, rather than nature. i think outside factors - such as where you're brought up, who you socialise with, etc. have more of an impact when deciding sexuality..


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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 03:29 PM

Like Elle, Im a bit undecided.
To be honest I think with some people it is just Nature... No arguement, its just truly the way the feel from a very young age.
But I believe with others Nurture has had a little something to do with it... Some people question their sexuality and are unsure, so with these people I believe nurture has an influence.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 03:45 PM

Nurture, for it to be nature would be suggest it can be inherited, and I believe there have been tests about this and they proved negative? I could be wrong though.

And another reason I think it's nurture is because it appears that as it become more socially acceptable to be homosexual there are more people coming out about being gay, yes I'm sure it could be because they're less scared, and while this probably does have something to do with it I'm it's not the only factor in it.

You also get this people who become 'gay' or 'bisexual' just to look cool, so media influence has something to do with it as well.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 05:19 PM

I too tend to think it's "nurture". The concept that homosexuality is inherited from parents/other relatives is one that doesn't make sense to me and is just playing wrong. Also, I think there are a lot of stereotypes out there about gay/lesbian people. I have TWO gay teachers, and I wouldn't have known that they were gay unless they had told me. They are fairly normal people.

Also, I wish that we could just let people marry who they want to marry. I don't really get why we have to instill our own values on everyone else. Why doesn't society as a whole get that it's OKAY to be different.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 05:34 PM

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Originally Posted by cwkguy View Post
Also, I wish that we could just let people marry who they want to marry.
Marriage is a religious thing, and seeming as homosexuality is forbidden in most it shouldn't be allowed. But that's a different debate all together.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 05:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.1415926535897 View Post
Marriage is a religious thing, and seeming as homosexuality is forbidden in most it shouldn't be allowed. But that's a different debate all together.
Not to go off track, but not all people see marriage as religious, and neither are all people religious. PM me if you want to debate this more! I don't want to completely derail the thread.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 05:59 PM

OK, so far all those who seem to support the "NATURE" option in the poll have cited the fact that homosexuality exists outside the human race, and is therefore something natural and quite possibly part of the genetic makeup of living things. My initial question, however, was that if a "gay gene" really existed, wouldn't it have been eliminated a long time ago by natural selection, since it doesn't allow those who inherit it to reproduce? I still haven't found a definite answer. Great posts though, guys - though this discussion's been done before, it's interesting to hear what everybody thinks!
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 06:01 PM

There really needs to be a "both" option. Homosexuality is unarguably influenced by nature in many people, but it's rarely the only influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by castadiva
Lately I've been pretty confused as to why homosexuals exist. From an evolutionary standpoint, isn't it a bad thing that they can't reproduce? There's the key principle of natural selection, which is basically the process by which heritable traits that promote survival and reproduction become more common. So if there was a "gay gene" of sorts, wouldn't it have disappeared a long time ago, due to the fact that the people who inherit it are sexually attracted in such a way that they can't have their own children?
If there were a single gene that caused a person to be strictly homosexual, it would probably fade out of the gene pool fairly quickly. However, it's much more probably influenced by the interaction of many genes, and sexuality is a grey scale, not binary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.1415926535897
Nurture, for it to be nature would be suggest it can be inherited, and I believe there have been tests about this and they proved negative? I could be wrong though.
If I'm recalling correctly, having a gay identical twin makes it much more likely for a person to be gay. That's generally a strong indicator of a genetic influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.1415926535897
Marriage is a religious thing, and seeming as homosexuality is forbidden in most it shouldn't be allowed. But that's a different debate all together.
Marriage hasn't been a "religious thing" in a long time, and regardless there are many religions which have no moral issue with homosexuality. Unless you wish to argue that marriage is a "Christian thing" - trust me, you don't - even saying marriage is a religious thing isn't a sufficient counterargument.


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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by castadiva View Post
OK, so far all those who seem to support the "NATURE" option in the poll have cited the fact that homosexuality exists outside the human race, and is therefore something natural and quite possibly part of the genetic makeup of living things. My initial question, however, was that if a "gay gene" really existed, wouldn't it have been eliminated a long time ago by natural selection, since it doesn't allow those who inherit it to reproduce? I still haven't found a definite answer. Great posts though, guys - though this discussion's been done before, it's interesting to hear what everybody thinks!
Numerous other organisms engage in homosexual activities: http://www.sodahead.com/technology/l...or/blog-41329/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...ior_in_animals.

It's not entirely determined as to why animals display homosexual behavior and matings because it does seem counter-intuitive. From what I know, there's been no underlying theory as to why they do such behaviors and actions. Some studies have found differences in neuroanatomy of homosexual and heterosexual humans, however, it's difficult to say if these were the result of homosexuality or if they were involved in generating the homosexuality.

I'm not going to vote on the poll because it's missing a crucial option of "both nature and nurture". There is a genetic contribution but it's not 100%. There was a recent article showing a genetic control for sexual characteristics but not for sexual behaviors, and most behaviors are a mix of biological and psychosocial factors.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 06:24 PM

^ Point taken. You could potentially use the "NEITHER" option as a substitute for "BOTH", since "NEITHER" could be taken to mean "neither solely a result of 'nature'" or "neither solely a result of 'nurture'". But yeah, I see what you mean.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 08:55 PM

I think it's a bit of both actually. I know when you are born, you can be gay or straight. But sometimes, how you are raised, and how you grow up, can define how you become. So it is a bit of nature and nurture, if that makes any sense.


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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 09:36 PM

I think its definetely a bit of both as there can be few charactistics of personality (ie non-physical characteristics) that can be entirely down to one or the other. Surely the vast majority of things are influenced by both.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 1st 2010, 09:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by castadiva View Post
^ Point taken. You could potentially use the "NEITHER" option as a substitute for "BOTH", since "NEITHER" could be taken to mean "neither solely a result of 'nature'" or "neither solely a result of 'nurture'". But yeah, I see what you mean.
Haha, well, we could debate the semantics here over "neither" but let's just take "neither" to mean "I choose neither of the given options because they aren't appropriate for my view".
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 2nd 2010, 12:30 AM

Animals outside of humans have homosexual behaviours, this combined with the fact homosexuality has been around as long as, well, humans, makes me think it's more biological. Have they not found biological differences in the brains of homosexuals?

But your point is interesting - homosexuality goes against the very meaning of life; to reproduce and produce healthly offspring. Genetic flaw, perhaps? But then homosexuality would have ceased due to natural selection.

Interesting *ponders*
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 2nd 2010, 02:56 AM

I think it's neither. I think it can be nature, but it can also be nurture. After all, our personalities are determined by our environment growing up as children and our DNA. What makes sexuality any different? I think it's mostly just nature, though. To me, I used to think it was kind of stupid to have a woman all the sudden be like "omgz I'm lesbian now", but now that I think of it...if you're not straight, or you're not gay, you're either embracing the fact that you have no idea what you want (bi-sexual), or you're scared to admit that you're gay. So I think it's hard to tell at an early age because I think that nurture definitely plays a role in sexuality...but it takes two to tango.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 2nd 2010, 07:33 AM

I believe it is nature.

I think of it this way: Did I choose to become heterosexual? I don't recall a time in my life when I decided I was going to start being attracted to girls.

To speak in more general terms: You can't control what you like and who you're attracted to.

Though I believe nature mostly defines this,I also believe nurture/culture plays a huge role in how homosexuality manifests itself...If that makes sense, I'm not great at explaining this.

For example, a homosexual in some tribe in Africa may have different conceptions about it than a homosexual from America. Though the base is similar, theres going to be some differences in how people deal with it.
   
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Cool Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 2nd 2010, 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugez View Post
I believe it is nature.

I think of it this way: Did I choose to become heterosexual? I don't recall a time in my life when I decided I was going to start being attracted to girls.

To speak in more general terms: You can't control what you like and who you're attracted to.

I completely agree with Lugez, I'm a bisexual female who leans towards girls, and it definitely wasn't chosen.

To further this point I would like to ask my heterosexual friends a few questions:

1. What do you think caused your heterosexuality?

2. When and how did you first decide you were a heterosexual?

3. Is it possible your heterosexuality is just a phase you may grow out of?

4. Could it be that your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of others of the same sex?

5. If you’ve never slept with a person of the same sex, how can you be sure you wouldn’t prefer that?

6. Why do heterosexuals feel compelled to seduce others into their lifestyle?

7. Why do you insist on flaunting your heterosexuality? Can’t you just be what you are and keep it quiet?

8. Would you want your children to be heterosexual, knowing the problems they’d face?

9. A disproportionate majority of child molesters are heterosexual men. Do you consider it safe to expose children to heterosexual male teachers, pediatricians, priests, or scoutmasters?

10. With all the societal support for marriage, the divorce rate is spiraling. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals?

11. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex?

12. Considering the menace of overpopulation, how could the human race survive if everyone were heterosexual?

13. Could you trust a heterosexual therapist to be objective? Don’t you fear s/he might be inclined to influence you in the direction of her/his own leanings?

14. Heterosexuals are notorious for assigning themselves and one another rigid, stereotyped sex roles. Why must you cling to such unhealthy role-playing?

15. There seem to be very few happy heterosexuals. Techniques have been developed that might enable you to change if you really want to. After all, you never deliberately chose to be a heterosexual, did you? Have you considered aversion therapy or Heterosexuals Anonymous?



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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 2nd 2010, 02:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by her_beautiful_mistake View Post
Have they not found biological differences in the brains of homosexuals?
They have but the observations are in a sense meaningless because one cannot show whether these differences led to homosexual behavior or whether homosexual behavior led to these changes, or whether something else other than homosexuality led to these changes. The third option is usually excluded because a large population of homosexuals have similar neuroanatomical differences from heterosexuals but the first 2 options cannot be answer and they are the vital ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by her_beautiful_mistake View Post
But your point is interesting - homosexuality goes against the very meaning of life; to reproduce and produce healthly offspring. Genetic flaw, perhaps? But then homosexuality would have ceased due to natural selection.
Very good point. There are numerous species that obscure the problem: Cnemidophorus (whiptail lizards) as it consists of only females who reproduce through parthenogenesis. There's also Varanus komodoensis (Komodo Dragon), Darevskia (rock lizards) and many others that use parthenogenesis, hence, no males and it's a form of asexual reproduction. Komodo Dragons are somewhat of an odd bunch in this because they can use parthenogenesis as well as sexual reproduction between males and females. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

So this provides a possible reason why homosexuality hasn't been eliminated, especially considering Komodo Dragons. A female-only population may undergo a Founder Effect (inhabit a new area) and through parthenogenesis they reproduce. Eventually, males will be produced also and sexual reproduction can then occur to give greater genetic diversity.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 2nd 2010, 03:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
1. What do you think caused your heterosexuality?
Too many factors and there are probably a bunch I'm unaware of. Cannot answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
2. When and how did you first decide you were a heterosexual?
Never thought about being heterosexual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
3. Is it possible your heterosexuality is just a phase you may grow out of?
Possibly but very unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
4. Could it be that your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of others of the same sex?
A sociological answer would be along the lines of "yes" but for me personally, it's a "no" as I have various homosexual and bisexual friends, some of whom are males.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
5. If you’ve never slept with a person of the same sex, how can you be sure you wouldn’t prefer that?
If by sleep you mean sleep-over or camping out together in a tent while other people are in separate tents but no sex, then yes I've done that. It didn't matter to me really but for having sex, never had it with males so cannot say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
6. Why do heterosexuals feel compelled to seduce others into their lifestyle?
A sociological answer would be that heterosexuality has historically been the "correct" orientation and so some may try to correct what they think is a problem. Others may have homophobia and try to eliminate their fear through removing the homosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
7. Why do you insist on flaunting your heterosexuality? Can’t you just be what you are and keep it quiet?
If I flaunt it, it's as a joke and everyone involved knows it's a joke. I don't condemn homosexuals or anything like that unless they keep trying to get with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
8. Would you want your children to be heterosexual, knowing the problems they’d face?
I'd say my future kids could be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc... . I don't have any problem with it because I see nothing wrong with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
9. A disproportionate majority of child molesters are heterosexual men. Do you consider it safe to expose children to heterosexual male teachers, pediatricians, priests, or scoutmasters?
I'm going to call you out on saying that your question is wrong to begin with. If I recall correctly, there are more homosexual molesters but have far fewer victims than heterosexual molesters. Also, although some may be heterosexual, it doesn't mean they will attack female children. According to Lanning (1992), one of the typologies of child molesters is sexually-indiscriminate, meaning they engage in a wide diversity of sexual acts with various partners almost as a means of experimenting with what they like. Another typology, the inadequate molester may attack male children instead of female children.

Regarding priests, according to Langevin, Curnoe and Bain (2000), they found that the majority of priests or clerics in the sexual offender category were mostly homosexual pedophiles.

So I'm not going to answer because the information given in the question is incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
10. With all the societal support for marriage, the divorce rate is spiraling. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals?
I think part of it may have to be with people marrying at a fairly young age and simply not being ready to commit to and maintain a successful marriage because they may not fully understand what is involved. I'm sure there are other reasons, such as income, whereby the couple is struggling or there's an issue of money. I don't think much of it has to do with the fact that the partners are heterosexual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
11. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex?
Regardless of one's orientation, we're all humans, and from an evolutionary perspective, this isn't an uncommon phenomenon. From a sociological perspective, having heterosexual sex can confirm one is heterosexual, although it's not necessarily definite proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
12. Considering the menace of overpopulation, how could the human race survive if everyone were heterosexual?
In the current world, not everyone survives, as some places have chronic starvation, conflict, etc... .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
13. Could you trust a heterosexual therapist to be objective? Don’t you fear s/he might be inclined to influence you in the direction of her/his own leanings?
It's a possibility although never one I actually considered until you mentioned it. Research has shown for risk assessment, male and female doctors typically give different findings but I never thought about extrapolating this to therapists. I suppose it could happen but hopefully one is able to notice what is happening and possibly quit therapy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
14. Heterosexuals are notorious for assigning themselves and one another rigid, stereotyped sex roles. Why must you cling to such unhealthy role-playing?
This is an incorrect question because homosexuals also have gender roles, not only heterosexuals. You're giving a bias that's clear as day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescendo View Post
15. There seem to be very few happy heterosexuals. Techniques have been developed that might enable you to change if you really want to. After all, you never deliberately chose to be a heterosexual, did you? Have you considered aversion therapy or Heterosexuals Anonymous?
Once again, you're assuming that the one factor out of thousands is sexual orientation. In some cases you may in fact be correct but I doubt you're correct in all of them, which is what you're asserting.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 2nd 2010, 08:33 PM

I don't believe it to be a trait, though I believe it can SOMETIMES be a result of nurture... if one grows up in that environment, they will mimic.

But I truly believe that it is some sort of mental defect, or chromosomal disorder, or something. I do not mean that in a bad way, it just cannot be natural because reproduction is the only point of existence, scientifically. Animals may be able to get the defect, too, so I do not believe that's a proper argument to combat this theory. But I believe gender identity and all those LGBT traits fall into the same category. It's something "wrong" and "unnatural". That does not mean it is a BAD thing, except pertaining to Darwinian success in some respects. Believe me, I'm a GID sufferer, I am not trying to be harsh but it is what I believe it to be.


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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 3rd 2010, 03:10 AM

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Originally Posted by Phin View Post
But I truly believe that it is some sort of mental defect
This reminds me of the DSM-III (I think it's that version) where society viewed homosexuality as a mental disorder as did the scientific community. That view is long gone and no longer supported and has been protested against. In fact, it's more of an archaic view nowadays so don't expect to get modern scientific support for your view. Your view is also one reason why certain therapies or treatment regimes were formulated to remove or "bash out" homosexuality.

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Originally Posted by Phin View Post
I do not mean that in a bad way, it just cannot be natural because reproduction is the only point of existence, scientifically.
One word: parthenogenesis. Animals can replicate asexually. Read the post I gave to her_beautiful_mistake as it contains the information and links.

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Originally Posted by Phin View Post
. It's something "wrong" and "unnatural".
With so many organisms and species displaying it, it's hard to say it's not natural without ignoring the numerous scientific observations. Whether or not it's "wrong" is a battle of morals, not something science can be involved in.

[quote=Phin;294177]
That does not mean it is a BAD thing, except pertaining to Darwinian success in some respects.

You haven't addressed processes such as parthenogenesis. Also, what do you mean by "bad" as it's such an ambiguous and vague term? Do you mean reproductively unsuccessful? If so, that's wrong because of parthenogenesis.

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Originally Posted by Phin View Post
Believe me, I'm a GID sufferer, I am not trying to be harsh but it is what I believe it to be.
Not trying to be mean or an asshole but I consider everyone to have equal input in these types of debates. While you having GID is acknowledged, I don't use it as a means to consider what you say to have any more or less weight than what others say.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 3rd 2010, 04:10 AM

There are some things I disagree with said in this thread, but I'm not even going to bother addressing them.

First off, I don't believe it honestly matters why people are gay. Nature, nurture or even choice, it doesn't matter. I had an interesting discussion with my friend about this, and it seems far too apologetic to just feel the need to be all 'I didnt help this, I was born this way'. So although I believe its completely out of one's control, so what.

People are not slaves to what constrains the animal world. We have a much more abstract existance, and although gay behaviour is found in animals, again, it doesn't really matter, we are not simply beasts of instinct living only to have kids (if we were, straight people would have more kids, and not have sex for anything but reproduction). Nonetheless, sex is used in many situations without the aim of offspring. Male dolphins who travel together often have sex over their travels. One species of monkey has sex for just about everything, from finding food to reuniting. Types of birds have sex for dominance. Etc, etc.

If there was a need for reproduction, chances are, gay people couldn't bite the bullet and reproduce via intercourse (though there are other ways to do that without IVF and intercourse). But look at straight men in prison, there is often gay sex that goes on for dominance, and due to lack of women. People do things that arent prefered for them when they feel its their only option.

I can't source you right now, but I remember reading that mothers who give birth to gay sons are more fertile, and the gay son may help with the upbringing of kids, not having their own. In other species like rats, it becomes a population control.

It's not like the world needs more population anyway. We have too many. And saying the lack of desire to reproduce is unnatural and wrong is like saying all those people born infertile are unnatural and wrong.

But there is nothing really about people, preferences and personality that are totally inherited. most sceintists and psychologists take middle ground between the two schools. And if its enviroment, its not simply upbringing.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 3rd 2010, 09:43 PM

^ You disagree with them, but you won't bother addressing them? So why mention it?

It's simply for discussion. Does it matter? Probably not. Do I found it really very interesting as a scientist? Yes....
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 4th 2010, 02:19 AM

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Originally Posted by her_beautiful_mistake View Post
^ You disagree with them, but you won't bother addressing them? So why mention it?
Why? Because I wanted to express my discomfort, but having to defend yourself time after time, for years and years gets annoying, particularly generally those who hold beliefs such as 'those who dont know what they want (bisexuals)', tend not be open to change their mind, and those open to change their mind have probably already done so from hearing the arguments countless times.

Quote:
It's simply for discussion. Does it matter? Probably not. Do I found it really very interesting as a scientist? Yes....
Its discussion, and I was giving my two cent for the bigger picture. Why? Because it generally is seen as something that matters, from both society and the (queer) community. Such as 'gays shouldnt get married, its not natural' or 'I cant help being gay, I was born this way'. All I was doing was adding my opinion to the discussion, not complaining people were discussing.

But if you find this interesting, I suggest you try track down a book called 'Sex is not a natural act'. It's about the social constructionalist view to sexuality as a whole, not just non-heteronormative people. It's an interesting read, and shows how sex for straight people isn't really naturally set out. From that, you can infer ideas about homosexuality, if you choose, but sexuality on the whole in humans is an interesting topic, and I think assuming straights are all doing something biologically programmed is missing the point. For example, kissing. Thats not remotely biological. Why, its not universal.
   
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 10th 2010, 08:32 AM

I voted nature, but I think I should have voted the third option and elaborated. I think it is natural, not a genetic thing just something you feel from a very young age. But also, I think it can be influenced by how your are raised and your surroundings...

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Marriage is a religious thing, and seeming as homosexuality is forbidden in most it shouldn't be allowed. But that's a different debate all together.
Not to go off-topic, but marriage is NOT a religious institution. Marriage wasn't only invented in one place, in Europe that is often how it was done since religion was a huge part of their society at some point. BUT, it has been recorded and documented that there was marriage between American Indians before the Europeans ever got here, and obviously they were not Christian or all the same religion. Also, atheists get married, so the "marriage is religious" argument, even if it were true/valid, is completely void. Otherwise atheists shouldn't be getting married in addition to homosexuals :l Just saying. Anyway, I got off topic. I think it's mostly a natural thing.
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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 10th 2010, 08:33 PM

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Originally Posted by castadiva View Post
Lately I've been pretty confused as to why homosexuals exist. From an evolutionary standpoint, isn't it a bad thing that they can't reproduce? There's the key principle of natural selection, which is basically the process by which heritable traits that promote survival and reproduction become more common. So if there was a "gay gene" of sorts, wouldn't it have disappeared a long time ago, due to the fact that the people who inherit it are sexually attracted in such a way that they can't have their own children?

I personally have nothing against homosexuals, even though I'm a Christian. However, I also support evolution as a scientific theory and as an essential part of biology (yes, it's possible to be both a faithful believer in Christ and a strong supporter of evolution - feel free to ask me about that sometime :P), and it just seems that homosexuality defies natural selection and therefore the whole process of evolution itself... what are your opinions on this? It would be interesting to see where this discussion leads.

Oh, and please vote on the poll in this thread! The main question I'm asking: Do you believe in a "natural" origin of homosexuality (thus indicating the possible existence of a "gay gene"), the idea that homosexuals are "nurtured" (indicating that homosexuality is a product of external factors), or neither? If you chose the third option, feel free to explain why.
I didn't read the whole thread and I get why you're confused but if you really thought about it you would see why thinking that the "gay gene" would be extinct because of lack of reproduction. Being gay does not mean a person cannot reproduce. There are plenty of lesbian couples where one woman decides to use a sperm donor to have a child, or a man chooses to use a surogate in a gay relationship. It always make me laugh (not saying that you said this) when people say, well homosexuality has to be a choice because if we were all homosexual we would cease to exist. As far as I know the human species is not completely idiotic. We would not let ourselves cease to be. If it was for the continuation of the species I'm sure they can suck it up and have sex with someone of the opposite sex.


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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 10th 2010, 08:33 PM

I said Nurture. Something in their environment would more likely effect it in my opinion.
Being around females and males. Males may find they can't see females sexually due to something that happened. Therefore they lean towards males. Vice versa for females as well.
Im not sure children are just born with something in there "genes" so to speak that say you will be homosexual!
Something that happens in your lifetime will probably effect what gender you are more attracted to.
Just my thoughts.


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Re: The existence of homosexuals - January 12th 2010, 11:09 AM

Epigenetics (or something of a similar name) is a new way of looking at genetics, and recent studies of that suggest there are a set of genes that can be turned on and off (perhaps by enviroment) at an early age to make one straight or gay, depending on if you have the genes. This is research from twin studies.

But I dont have much time, I just figured I'll throw something out there to talk about, considering people seem to think the purpose of living is simply reproduction. Post-menapausal women must be against nature! They can't have children anymore, so that is pointless, and I think only humans and killer whales have post-menapausal females.
   
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