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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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"Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 29th 2010, 09:30 AM

Hi Everyone!!

I hope you're having a dandy day.

President Obama wants to repeal the 'Don't ASK - Don't TELL' military policy regarding gay people serving in the military. Obviously - gays are ALREADY serving in the U.S. military. So this isn't about giving gays permission to serve - but to serve more openly. That more open policy will allow gay people to serve their country without having to fear being kicked out of the military if they don't hide their sexuality. [Which has happened on numerous occasions - costing the military millions of dollars and - often - highly trained personal]

I'm not sure what I think - to be honest. The 'Don't ASK - Don't TELL' policy has been - for the most part - a successful policy. With the GIGANTIC exception of some gay people losing their jobs. [As I mentioned in the first paragraph] So perhaps - a little more refining of the policy that's in place would be more appropriate then to throw the policy out entirely.

And there IS some concern among many men who are now serving in the military about the idea of showering and sharing sleeping quarters with someone who - by their very orientation - might find THEM sexually appealing. Some of us may laugh at that and argue, "Every straight guy thinks that every gay wants THEM!" But quite seriously - would any of 'us' laugh if a FEMALE said that she doesn't feel she should be forced to shower with MALES and share the same sleeping quarters? Now - fact is - gay and straight men in the military have been showering and sleeping together since time began. But it would change things - would it not - if the guy your showing next to and sleeping next to can openly share with you his sexual attraction to GUYS?!

Like I said earlier - I'm not sure what to think. I DO have some concern that it might back fire on gay military personal. That gay people MIGHT become targets of abuse. OR - IF there is a push to create separate showers/sleeping quarters for gays - the military might use the COST of that as an excuse to keep gays OUT of the military altogether.

With every action there is a reaction. And sometimes - people are far too focused on the 'action' that they fail to imagine the possible 'reaction'. [i.e. consequences.]

What do YOU think?!

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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 29th 2010, 10:46 PM

I disagree with Obama on alloot of things. But I do agree with him in that this policy should be repealed.

However, I do agree with the idea of "Dont ask, don't tell". I think "Don't ask, don't tell" should be more of a military norm rather than policy. Gay or not, it doesn't matter what sexual orientation you are when serving your country. You're in the army to fulfill your duties as solider/officer, not to be open about sexuality.

I say it should be changed to "Don't ask, don't tell" to "Who gives a flying fuck?" Do your job."
   
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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaCraig View Post
And there IS some concern among many men who are now serving in the military about the idea of showering and sharing sleeping quarters with someone who - by their very orientation - might find THEM sexually appealing. Some of us may laugh at that and argue, "Every straight guy thinks that every gay wants THEM!" But quite seriously - would any of 'us' laugh if a FEMALE said that she doesn't feel she should be forced to shower with MALES and share the same sleeping quarters? Now - fact is - gay and straight men in the military have been showering and sleeping together since time began. But it would change things - would it not - if the guy your showing next to and sleeping next to can openly share with you his sexual attraction to GUYS?!

Like I said earlier - I'm not sure what to think. I DO have some concern that it might back fire on gay military personal. That gay people MIGHT become targets of abuse. OR - IF there is a push to create separate showers/sleeping quarters for gays - the military might use the COST of that as an excuse to keep gays OUT of the military altogether.
the way I see it is, I'm gay, all my friends know this, yet none of them, straight gay or bi, mind sharing a bed with me, or object to me helping them when they are drunk (I object to that somewhat but I can't let them pee themselves!). Its totally different to asking a female to shower with males, thats nothing to do with sexual attraction, its an embarassment factor. I agree that its a good norm to not disscuss your sexuality, but it shouldn't be the policy. In fact I think its fairly outrageous that it still is.




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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 12:18 PM

No need for it really. If America's serious about telling everybody it's the "Land of the Free" then it needs to be repealed, simple as.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 02:03 PM

I'm really not quite sure what I think about this. In my opinion, I think that this policy is more for protecting gay people in the military. As harsh as it may sound, the fact is that there are people who are homophobic and just really do not like/understand the ways of gay people. When you are working in the military and have to depend on a troop for your own LIFE, you need everyone to get along. Because there are people who will not be fond of gay people, I think that this policy is for everyone's own protection.

I think that this "Don't ask, don't tell" policy is so there is absolutely no talk about sexuality. Therefore, nobody will have to feel uncomfortable. I am totally fine with anyone's sexuality of any sort, but I know that some people are not as accepting. I think it is very unfortunate that gay people in the military have to be secretive about their sexuality, but because of the people who are not accepting I guess it is the best (for now).




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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 02:48 PM

I can see why some people might have a problem with gays being in the military, since those men are forced to be very close to eachother, sleep very close, change, all that stuff, some might find it a little intimidating to know the guy you're changing in front of is gay. It's the same thing if you put males and females together.

But honestly? I think it's sick that they have a right to just... throw gay people out of the military. I hate it.

As for the policy, I think it's trying to protect gay people more than make them hide. I think it's trying to... well as much as we hate it, there ARE homophobes and quite a few are probably in the army. Even people who aren't normally homophobic might get a little freaked out. It's understandable really. I don't think gay people should hide it, not at all. If they're proud then by all means they should have the right to say "yeah, I'm gay." As long as they think about the consequences that some people are going to be a little freaked out.

I'm not saying everyone would... I wouldn't. I don't think every lesbian girl is going to hit on me or stare at me or whatever. Just like I don't think every straight man is going to. But not everyone thinks as rationally as we do. =/

All in all, I have no idea what I'm trying to say here.



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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 08:07 PM

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Originally Posted by xxPinkie24 View Post
I'm really not quite sure what I think about this. In my opinion, I think that this policy is more for protecting gay people in the military. As harsh as it may sound, the fact is that there are people who are homophobic and just really do not like/understand the ways of gay people. When you are working in the military and have to depend on a troop for your own LIFE, you need everyone to get along. Because there are people who will not be fond of gay people, I think that this policy is for everyone's own protection.

I think that this "Don't ask, don't tell" policy is so there is absolutely no talk about sexuality. Therefore, nobody will have to feel uncomfortable. I am totally fine with anyone's sexuality of any sort, but I know that some people are not as accepting. I think it is very unfortunate that gay people in the military have to be secretive about their sexuality, but because of the people who are not accepting I guess it is the best (for now).
So why not keep homophobics out of the military instead? Same result, and more fair by any standard.

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing this policy go. Discrimination for the sake of protection might be noble for some, but it's still discrimination. "Don't talk about it and pretend the problem isn't there" works for the short term, but it doesn't lead to change.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 08:49 PM

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So why not keep homophobics out of the military instead? Same result, and more fair by any standard.
Unfortunatly, while I would normally agree with this, there are a lot more homophobics than gay people. Its really pathetic to be honest. And perhaps right now isn't the best time to start kicking out a lot of people in the military. Or anyone for that matter. (not trying to say I'm for or against whatever war we have going on right now. I honestly couldn't care less about that.)

However, I honestly do think that gay acceptance is definatly getting better. Each generation IS little bit better. I mean, most of our parents, when they were growing up it was a god awful thing to be gay. These days, many of us teenagers are fine with it. Or at least more accepting. (not saying we all are, or that enough of us are. but it's a lot better than the days of our parents or grandparents)



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  (#9 (permalink)) Old
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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 09:38 PM

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You're in the army to fulfill your duties as solider/officer, not to be open about sexuality.

I say it should be changed to "Don't ask, don't tell" to "Who gives a flying fuck?" Do your job."
Agreed 100%.
   
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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 11:02 PM

I don't know what I think. I do however think it should not be possible to kick someout out due to their sexual preferences. But it is a lot more complex than homosexuality should be 'allowed', so I really can't say either way.

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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 11:10 PM

You are at work, you shouldn't be talking about your sexual life in the first place, gay or straight.




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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 11:43 PM

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You are at work, you shouldn't be talking about your sexual life in the first place, gay or straight.
True.

But you don't get kicked out at another workplace for talking about your sexuality, not legally at least. The army should not be not any different.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 11:47 PM

I don´t know how this can even be debated. It´s discrimination: pure and simple. If gay people want to let people know they are gay, that is their right, and if they don´t want people to know then they don´t have to tell anyone. It should be their choice.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 30th 2010, 11:59 PM

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True.

But you don't get kicked out at another workplace for talking about your sexuality, not legally at least. The army should not be not any different.
I know people who have been fired from civilian jobs for talking about their personal life during working hours. When I worked for Sears we weren't aloud to talk about our personal lives on the store floor at all, it was company policy.




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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 12:03 AM

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I know people who have been fired from civilian jobs for talking about their personal life during working hours. When I worked for Sears we weren't aloud to talk about our personal lives on the store floor at all, it was company policy.
Is it mandatory though? Or did talking about personal stuff at Sears prevent you doing the thing you loved for the rest of your life? No. Someone who wants to serve their country is forced to sit in the corner and not disturb anyone. If they say "I like the opposite sex." then that's it, no more dream for you. Of course the rest of the army can go "Oh dude, I'd totally bang that chick!" and I'm sure they'll be allowed to go on their merry way.

It's just the army covering up it's latent homophobia behind poor excuses.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 12:30 AM

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Is it mandatory though?
If it's company policy, it's mandatory if you want to keep your job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaCraig View Post
But it would change things - would it not - if the guy your showing next to and sleeping next to can openly share with you his sexual attraction to GUYS?!
Just because he can, doesn't mean he would, and if one would be so presumptuous as to expect it, then that might be seen as homophobia?
Nobody should have to keep secrets, I think it's good to have it repealed. It allows for more freedom in the military. Socially there might be problems but that's up to the senior officers to deal with.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 12:34 AM

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It allows for more freedom in the military.
But the military is all about deindividualisation, not personal freedom.




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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 02:46 AM

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But the military is all about deindividualisation, not personal freedom.
It may well be, but why should that extend to the sexuality of it's professionals? Aren't gays suppressed enough in society? Why should that suppression extend to the military? Because the military should keep it's tough, masculine, bad-guy-ass-kicking image, in order to maintain support and new recruits?


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 03:37 AM

I think he's aware that despite this change, nobodies likely to tell people anyway. Why would they? If they have any sense then they would realize its not worth telling people. (Not in the military anyway) due to the reasons you've mentioned.



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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 05:52 AM

Personally I feel like Don't Ask Don't Tell has not been effective at all. I've actually looked into this issue a lot and spoken with many LGBT military people in and out of service. The one that sticks with me most is a gay woman who they were suspicious of her sexual orientation and searched her personal things to find she did have a girlfriend, and promptly kicked her out. Regardless of the fact that she wasn't open about it at work. And really they are the government, so what are you going to do about it? This is also not an uncommon practice to search through peoples personal things to try to determine their sexuality.

On top of that, as an LGBT identifying person, I'm personally offended that straight people could join the military and talk about their wives and husbands, boyfriends and girlfriends, while that's not okay for a gay person to do. How is that fair? Basically it's saying that straight people are better than gay people, isn't it?

Another thing, to answer your post Lizzie, what about people who live on base and their personal lives are at where they work? While you could argue they shouldn't be talking about personal issues while training, you can't really say they can't talk about personal issues in their personal lives.
To tack on to that as well, it's unfair that a straight male (just as an example, could be female or any other gender as well) can have his wife live on base, while a gay male could not have his significant other live on base.

This should be repealed, as it's silly. While the idea behind it was with good intentions, it's unfair and certainly does not promote equal rights as America is supposed to stand for. In reality it's unconstitutional to have a policy like this as it takes away freedom of speech and expression.



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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 02:15 PM

Honestly, I think this issue should be left to be debated between the actual members of the military. It is just a completely different world form the civilian world. Now I am not arguing for or against Don’t ask, Don’t tell. But I am trying to show it from a military point of view. And quite frankly I don’t think it is possible for civilians to properly discuss this issue. There are just so many different factors in play for and against this issue, that if you haven’t lived it, you don’t understand. So I am just going to leave it at that.




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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 02:40 PM

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Honestly, I think this issue should be left to be debated between the actual members of the military. It is just a completely different world form the civilian world. Now I am not arguing for or against Don’t ask, Don’t tell. But I am trying to show it from a military point of view. And quite frankly I don’t think it is possible for civilians to properly discuss this issue. There are just so many different factors in play for and against this issue, that if you haven’t lived it, you don’t understand. So I am just going to leave it at that.
Yep. Leave it to the military to whitewash it. If they'd of had their way back in the Civil Rights struggle, Black people wouldn't be allowed to serve with White. In a hierarchy of thugs, the civilian populace should be allowed to correct their errors.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 04:00 PM

All I know Is I'm a female in a relationship with a female who is probably going to join the US Army, and i would hate to have to live in fear of us being found out and her losing her benefits.



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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 05:31 PM

I don't think it should be repealed.

The reason why is regardless of what anyone says: if you have a group of guys 18-22 years old who are more than likely the majority of them are straight then take someone who is openly gay, because of the age bracket I think there it will cause disunity. The people who I know who are in the military think it's a horrible idea to repeal it. Personally, I think Obama needs to back off these minor issues and focus on the economy. However, if this does happen it should be up to the military to decide... not Obama and house/senate. I'm not justifying the stereotype, but I know it would cause a lot of discomfort if it was removed.
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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - January 31st 2010, 08:26 PM

You'd always have the choice to stay closeted, as you do in all of life. If you're not comfortable being out while in the military then you don't have to be out. It's sad that's how we are now, but it is how it is.

If straight people get a say in gay marriage, people not in the military should get a say over Don't Ask Don't Tell. Plus, it's part of the entire LGBT movement and what we're fighting for - equal rights. Which at the moment we don't have and it's all we're asking for. People need to get over themselves and stop thinking groups of people, minorities or not, are worse than themselves and give us equal rights.



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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 1st 2010, 02:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
Honestly, I think this issue should be left to be debated between the actual members of the military. It is just a completely different world form the civilian world.....There are just so many different factors in play for and against this issue, that if you haven’t lived it, you don’t understand.
So, Obama doesn't understand because he's never served in the military, despite being the decision maker? Thus, he shouldn't be making the decision because he hasn't lived it?

I think members of the military are a little too busy to care, to want to sit down and debate, or have a vote.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 1st 2010, 02:31 AM

lol, of course don't ask dont tell isnt about protecting gay people, otherwise you wouldn't be able to be dishonourably discharged for it being found out, even when you haven't told. Not to mention, you can always choose to be closeted anyway. Maybe if it was simply 'Dont ask', it may be to protect gays... but the current system really isnt a form of protection.

Most countries in the developed world let gays serve openly in their military. Like no one is saying a gay should join the army to do anything but the reasons you are meant to go into the army, so like not to enter it to be a conflict raising activist. At the same time, you should be allowed to mention you are living with your partner, or you have a gf/bf, etc, when the straights are taling about it. People out in war often think about their loved ones and partners as a way of getting through, and they share these stories, so what? And also, you have couples being allowed to cohabit on bases or whatever sometimes, or they are allowed to come and visit you, or when you are at home, you can hold their hand in the street. Dont ask, dont tell, stops gays even being allowed a private personal life, and also requires them to suppress personal details no one else has to.

And I'm sorry, but a gay man being in a shower with a bunch of heterosexual men is not actually the same as a straight man being in a shower with a women. First off, objectification theory suggests the man is a lot more likely to view the woman as an object, putting her at risk, and he is physically stronger, and she may not be as able to defend herself. But even if the man does nothing, women have learnt self objectification, where they will be made to see themselves as an object, which is harmful to the female psyche. Straight men particularly have had very little of this. Whereas women have it literally everywhere, media, in the street, office, calenders, etc.

And gays successfully openly serve along straights in the military in say the UK, and there's not really a problem. Any initial problem will be down to individual homophobia, and its likely to cease or significantly reduce over time.
   
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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 1st 2010, 04:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael. View Post
I don't think it should be repealed.

The reason why is regardless of what anyone says: if you have a group of guys 18-22 years old who are more than likely the majority of them are straight then take someone who is openly gay, because of the age bracket I think there it will cause disunity. The people who I know who are in the military think it's a horrible idea to repeal it. Personally, I think Obama needs to back off these minor issues and focus on the economy. However, if this does happen it should be up to the military to decide... not Obama and house/senate. I'm not justifying the stereotype, but I know it would cause a lot of discomfort if it was removed.
Did you know that Obama is actually working with military personnel in the pentagon to find a solution that the military feels will be effective? Otherwise, I think Invert's post sums up my feelings nicely.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 1st 2010, 04:22 AM

Nope, no way should we allow gays into the military. It would cause discontent in the unit, plain and simple. The lowered unit moral would negatively effect the performance of the unit, especially if it was a special forces type, where unit moral plays a larger part then in a large scale war. This is an important issue and we need to keep this policy around to protect the moral of the unit and our military power abroad.
   
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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 1st 2010, 05:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Nope, no way should we allow gays into the military. It would cause discontent in the unit, plain and simple. The lowered unit moral would negatively effect the performance of the unit, especially if it was a special forces type, where unit moral plays a larger part then in a large scale war. This is an important issue and we need to keep this policy around to protect the moral of the unit and our military power abroad.
Or, we could begin educating people on the fact that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, and that there is no good reason to be homophobic; and that starts with removing discriminatory laws. Presto, problem solved. Honestly, America has many, many bigger problems than the morale of its military.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 1st 2010, 04:49 PM

I thought this article, all be it about the UK military, on homophobia in the military may add something- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle6990095.ece




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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 1st 2010, 05:29 PM

I think this policy is ridiculous.

I agree with Lizzie that when you are at a job your personal life should not be mentioned but imagine living with people for four years, of course you personal life is going to be brought up.

The straight people are going to talk about their plans for the night. Plans to have fun and meet a girl. The straight people are going to talk openly about their little ones, the love of their life etc.

Gay people do not have that option. Gay people cannot be out and open about their relationship, their plans for the night (if it involves a gay bar) because if they are they will get kicked out.

There is no reason for this at all. It is not about keeping people safe it is about discrimination.

People have a right to use their own instinct on whether or not to let people know they are gay. You have to think that these people are going to be living with each other for ages and they are going to become friends, they are going to learn a lot about each other. You don't think that in those times of living with each other the gay person is going to get to know them and be able to tell if the person is open to their sexuality? Be able to tell if it would be safe disclosing to those people that he/she is gay?

IDK. I think that people should be able to be open about their personal lives and do it at their own discretion.

Yes, ideally work should not bring in peoples personal lives but it happens and people are not fired for it.

My dad worked at an office for 17 years and people knew he had a family, knew he was married, knew he had been with my mom since they were fourteen.

No matter what when you work with people your life is going to come up. It is not going to be the main focus of the job but it is going to happen.

This policy is based on discrimination. Plain and simple.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 2nd 2010, 05:29 AM

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Originally Posted by ~Jenna~ View Post

This policy is based on discrimination. Plain and simple.
Well of course, any form of special treatment, good or bad, is discrimination. What this truly is about it unit moral, if we allow homosexuals into the military it will trash that moral and lose us wars.
   
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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 3rd 2010, 02:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Well of course, any form of special treatment, good or bad, is discrimination. What this truly is about it unit moral, if we allow homosexuals into the military it will trash that moral and lose us wars.

I am sorry but I don't get that. How will it lose us wars?


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 3rd 2010, 03:42 AM

Because, clearly like what happened with the UK, not dismissing gay people will literally make the army fall apart, with lightning thunder and earthquakes?

Goodness knows why the US even needs to be having wars at this time?
   
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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 3rd 2010, 03:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Well of course, any form of special treatment, good or bad, is discrimination. What this truly is about it unit moral, if we allow homosexuals into the military it will trash that moral and lose us wars.
I normally would never quote a TV show but this quote sums it up perfectly: "The problem with that is that's what they were saying about 50 years ago - blacks shouldn't serve with whites. It would disrupt the unit. You know what? It did disrupt the unit. The unit got over it. The unit changed."

Not to mention that in a recent study/survey of Iraq military veterans 30 percent reported feeling very comfortable around homosexuals in their unit and 44 percent somewhat comfortable. So bang goes the whole "it'd ruin unit cohesion" argument.

Link to study: http://palmcenter.org/files/active/0/randstudy(3).pdf

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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 3rd 2010, 03:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Well of course, any form of special treatment, good or bad, is discrimination. What this truly is about it unit moral, if we allow homosexuals into the military it will trash that moral and lose us wars.
Lose you wars that America's already withdrawing from anyway? Seems a tad irrelevant. And that aside; either do some research or post your reasoning and sources. As has been pointed out, the UK managed this transition just fine.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 3rd 2010, 08:09 PM

I think Don't Ask, Don't Tell should be repealed. I know I personally don't check out every person I see (I'm bi), and I'm assuming the same for people who are completely gay.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 4th 2010, 04:19 AM

Since I don't know how to quote more then one person, excuse me by replying by number.

#1 - Any officer worth his salt knows how important moral is in warfare, having homosexuals of either gender in the armed forces disrupt that moral.

#2 - Yes since the UK is such a powerful force, largest army in the world, oh I apologize, that was a few hundred years ago. They are not the United States, that's like saying "Well women in the Middle East wear full body coverings, so we all should", were not the same nation, we do not have the same ideals.

#3 Total military personal employed by the United States - 3,385,400
If we accept your study then 1,128,466 servicemen (yes one million one hundred twenty eight thousand four hundred sixty six people) will have a negative response and therefore negatively effect our moral.

#4 Withdrawing from the war is a strategically bad decision, just because we make one bad decision does not mean it's a good idea to make another.


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Re: "Don't ASK - Don't TELL" - What do YOU think?! - February 4th 2010, 05:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post
#2 - Yes since the UK is such a powerful force, largest army in the world, oh I apologize, that was a few hundred years ago. They are not the United States, that's like saying "Well women in the Middle East wear full body coverings, so we all should", were not the same nation, we do not have the same ideals.
Yes, but culturally the UK and America are incredibly similar. America and the Middle East are culturally very different. That is why it is very possible to contrast experiences in the UK with potential experiences in America.

Although your analogy is flawed in other ways, nobody is asking anybody to change their lifestyle in the face of another nations customs, they're simply asking them to accept someone elses lifestyle. It's not hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post
#3 Total military personal employed by the United States - 3,385,400
If we accept your study then 1,128,466 servicemen (yes one million one hundred twenty eight thousand four hundred sixty six people) will have a negative response and therefore negatively effect our moral.
Firstly, you've got your maths wrong, 26% of 3,385,400 is 880,204 and not 1,128,466. Quite a significant difference there.

Had you read the study you would also have seen that it also said that 8% were "unsure". If you add that to the 74% who feel comfortable with gays that only leaves only 18% which will definitely have any issue with it. Although the 18% also includes people who answered "slightly uncomfortable" and they would most likely not have a major issue either, so really the number who feel "very uncomfortable" will be lower than 18%. I don't think gay people should have to pretend to be anything other than who they are for such a small minority as 18%, 18% will not ruin unit cohesion. 18% is only 609,372. Not to mention the amount that the majority polices the views of the minority, I know that if I was making racist comments people around me would come down like a ton of bricks, the same is most likely true here.

Secoundly, the study shows that over 20% knew for certain they had a gay or lesbian member of their unit and a further 53% said that the presence of gays or lesbians in the unit was "well known by others". Evidently, the present system is hardly keeping people's sexuality under wraps anyway and therefore is rather pointless.

It also shows that units in which gay and lesbian members are known did not have any effect on unit cohesion:
Quote:
Taken together, these findings suggest that a fruitful approach to fostering strong cohesion and readiness would be to direct military resources and efforts toward optimizing the quality of leadership, training, and equipment. Beyond the roles of these unit quality indicators, the present data indicate that the war veterans’ ratings of unit cohesion or readiness were not associated with knowing a gay or lesbian unit member.
   
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