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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 11:56 AM

"The Diocese of Leeds' charity Catholic Care is appealing against a Charities Commission ruling stating it cannot discriminate against gay applicants.
The charity said the Equality Act 2006 went against the Catholic Church's teachings on marriage and family life.
Other Catholic adoption agencies have changed their policies or closed.
The appeal comes after the Church lost a battle against the introduction of the Sexual Orientations Regulations, under the Equality Act, which forced agencies to consider gay couples as potential adoptive parents.

In effect, we are being invited either to stop our adoption work or stop being a Catholic charity
Mark Wiggin, Catholic Care
Catholic agencies were given a 21-month transition period to comply with the new rules, which ended in December 2008.
Catholic Care, which serves Leeds, Middlesbrough and Hallam in South Yorkshire, had wanted to take advantage of a clause in the act which allows charities to discriminate by amending its charitable objectives.
However, it was barred from doing so by the Charities Commission.
Catholic ideals
Mark Wiggin, chief executive of Catholic Care, said the law meant the charity was being forced to "either stop our adoption work or stop being a Catholic charity".
He said: "The position of Catholic Care is that the introduction of regulations under the Equality Act 2006 is apparently preventing this charity from operating as an adoption charity because it forces us to act outside the ideals of the Catholic Church's teachings on marriage and family life.
"In effect, we are being invited either to stop our adoption work or stop being a Catholic charity.
"Neither of these options is acceptable to our trustees, our beneficiaries or supporters."
The charity said it had helped secure homes for 1,388 "vulnerable" children in Yorkshire since 1963.
Mr Wiggin added: "If Catholic Care is forced to close its adoption services, children would lose an effective and well respected resource in the Yorkshire region."
A Charity Commission spokesperson said: "It is inappropriate for us to comment on this case during the hearing."
The High Court hearing is expected to last two days." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/8546776.stm

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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 02:59 PM

I think if they are willing to stop doing their adoption work, to prevent the chance that they may have to on occassion allow gays to adopt... they kinda have their priorities in the wrong place. I'm curious as to their policy of adoption involving non-Catholic potential parents also?

At the end of the day, most gays would not want to be involved with a religious group unless they had to be, so it's not like thousands of gays will be flooding toward them... it might be just a handful. And children who need homes, need homes... Gay adoptive parents tend to be good parents, because they really have to want a kid to go to that effort. And the kid isn't likely to turn out gay. And foster care or orphanages are not the lesser of the 'two evils'. Just focus on giving the kid a good home, and the kid can decide their morality in later life.

The religious right have totally over reacted and blown equality laws out of proportion. My dad does it too... They have this surreal view of the world, where I guess they must see Planet of the Apes... but as Planet of the Gays. That could be fun actually... lol

Also I looked on their site:

http://www.catholic-care.org.uk/adop...option_faq.php

No mention of having to be Catholic, and non-married people can adopt.... so if thats ok, without them having to 'not be a catholic charities'.... wheres the issue?

Last edited by Marvin; March 3rd 2010 at 03:05 PM.
   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 03:31 PM

I feel the same as Tegan. Really, this is the kind of thing I'd expect out of the US, not the UK. No one would stand for it if a group wanted to deny adoptions to, say, non-whites. I don't see how this should be any more acceptable.


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 05:18 PM

I'm really in two minds over this one. As a Catholic, I can see why the agency would struggle to reconcile the requirements of the Sexual Orientation Regulations with their beliefs on family life - the Church believes that the traditional man-and-wife model is the one that works, so something which is going to conflict completely with that is going to raise tempers. Having said that, my personal view on the subject is that the suitability of foster families should be judged on their objective ability to look after the children, and not their choice of partner. If it is a stable relationship and they have the right qualities to raise the kids well, personally I don't see a problem, and considering the potential benefits to the child in having a loving home I don't think, deep down, the Church would actually be too worried either.

The fact that this has ended up going to court, on the other hand, is somewhat ridiculous and suggests both the charity and the Charity Commission have been incredibly heavy-handed in their dealings. I don't think the judge will be too impressed with this one.
   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 05:48 PM

As a private organization I can see them wanting to have the right to decide who they feel will be fit parents, and according to them gay-parents will set inappropriate standards for their children. So I can see where they are coming from.

Personally I think gay couples should have equal rights when it comes to adopting. But this is a private catholic run organization. So… I don’t know how I feel about it.




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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 06:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
As a private organization I can see them wanting to have the right to decide who they feel will be fit parents, and according to them gay-parents will set inappropriate standards for their children. So I can see where they are coming from.

Personally I think gay couples should have equal rights when it comes to adopting. But this is a private catholic run organization. SoÖ I donít know how I feel about it.
Agreed entirely. I'm glad you're looking at it from a Catholics point of view. Very unbiased =) I understand where they are coming from as well.


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Red face Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 06:35 PM

I know this is a weird thing to say - especially as someone who's pretty confident they're more gay than straight - but I have no problem with them not alloying gay couples to adopt - via their charity. All it's doing is showing that they're... not strictly speaking homopphobic, but certainly ignorant and narrow-minded... and there are other organisations to help gay couples adopt. As long as they have on their website that they won't accept gay parents, then we can just go to someone else.


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 06:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Fictional View Post
I know this is a weird thing to say - especially as someone who's pretty confident they're more gay than straight - but I have no problem with them not alloying gay couples to adopt - via their charity. All it's doing is showing that they're... not strictly speaking homopphobic, but certainly ignorant and narrow-minded... and there are other organisations to help gay couples adopt. As long as they have on their website that they won't accept gay parents, then we can just go to someone else.
I don't think it shows them to be narrow-minded as much as sticking to their beliefs. I wouldn't expect a Catholic charity to be geared towards homosexuals, and anyone who would is insensitive to the Catholic belief-set.
   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 06:40 PM

It's a narrow-minded belief ¨.¨


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 06:43 PM

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It's a narrow-minded belief ¨.¨
We could say the same thing about you. That you have a narrow-minded belief that there Isn't a god outside of this world? That you can't comprehend God. How does that make you feel me calling you narrow-minded? Having certain beliefs doesn't make someone narrow-minded, It actually gives someone a sense of who they are, and equips them for the world outside. Not to put you down, really, but you are fourteen and you're getting to know the world around you. When you're in college and you're Christian, It's hard because the people in college want to be there and will use their knowledge against you. Unlike highschool where everyone is forced to be there. You have to know who you are, no matter what you believe.


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 06:47 PM

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It's a narrow-minded belief ¨.¨
No, its not. To believe that scripture is Truth is not narrow-minded. Its part of the faith. And the fact that many disagree does not make that faith any less valid. But this is getting off-topic I think.
   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 07:54 PM

I understand they have their policies and such but I find it rather hypocritical that they'd be willing to close instead of open to homosexual parents, yet their goal is to help out children in getting adopted. Clearly it's about maintaining their views as correct no matter what the outcome is; if they close, then they still believe their beliefs are correct, if they change then they still believe their beliefs are correct just pissed off about changing to something incorrect. If their goal truly is to help kids get adopted, then surely they'd be more than willing to change but they're not so clearly, it's not their main goal at hand.

I find it hard to support them outside of religious views because they're judging homosexuals as being incompetent parents when in reality, they may be better parents than heterosexual parents, whom they allow adoption to. I'm not entirely sure on how the laws and policies work for this but since it's privately run, if they are not required to adhere to the Charities Commission, then that ends the issue right then and there. I don't support this catholic adoption center one bit in their view but if they legally are entitled to keep their policies without adhering to the Charities Commission, then by all means continue. It just shows that their main goal is not about helping children but rather about preserving their religious faith.
   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 3rd 2010, 08:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Invert View Post
I think if they are willing to stop doing their adoption work, to prevent the chance that they may have to on occassion allow gays to adopt... they kinda have their priorities in the wrong place. I'm curious as to their policy of adoption involving non-Catholic potential parents also?

At the end of the day, most gays would not want to be involved with a religious group unless they had to be, so it's not like thousands of gays will be flooding toward them... it might be just a handful. And children who need homes, need homes... Gay adoptive parents tend to be good parents, because they really have to want a kid to go to that effort. And the kid isn't likely to turn out gay. And foster care or orphanages are not the lesser of the 'two evils'. Just focus on giving the kid a good home, and the kid can decide their morality in later life.

The religious right have totally over reacted and blown equality laws out of proportion. My dad does it too... They have this surreal view of the world, where I guess they must see Planet of the Apes... but as Planet of the Gays. That could be fun actually... lol

Also I looked on their site:

http://www.catholic-care.org.uk/adop...option_faq.php

No mention of having to be Catholic, and non-married people can adopt.... so if thats ok, without them having to 'not be a catholic charities'.... wheres the issue?
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 4th 2010, 12:51 AM

I'm not familiar with UK law, but if it was here in the US they would be completely within their rights since they are a religious organization. To force them to give children to homosexual couples would be a violation of our separation between church and state (that one does work both ways).
   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 4th 2010, 12:57 AM

Lets put it this way, a homosexual adoption agency (let's say the women had children in heterosexual relationships before...) doesn't want to let some Catholics, who do NOT endorse homosexuality, adopt form their agency. Hmm? How do you think the agency would feel? It's just like Catholics adopting to homosexuals. You wouldn't give a child to someone who holds basically the opposite views that you hold. Hope that sounded the way I wanted it to.


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 4th 2010, 01:18 AM

That is hard. They have the right to their own beliefs but that doesn't mean they should discriminate. I think that I agree that they should allow gay parents to adopt. They (for example) might not want a family to adopt a baby that is a different colour than the parents but that is discrimination.


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 4th 2010, 02:47 AM

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That is hard. They have the right to their own beliefs but that doesn't mean they should discriminate. I think that I agree that they should allow gay parents to adopt. They (for example) might not want a family to adopt a baby that is a different colour than the parents but that is discrimination.
But, as a private agency (unless they receive state funding, which would change the whole thing), they would have that right as well (speaking strictly by US standards).
   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 4th 2010, 02:53 AM

Im 'catholic' & im straight but I do know a few gay people and have nothing against them, now, this is where my post may cause a stir..
I do NOT agree with gay couples adopting a child. It is wrong beyond belief. A child, to grow up in the proper way needs a mother and a father to look up to. Not 2 fathers.
"What about people who dont have a father/mother in there life anyway?" Thats totally different. The mother/father can sort of take on the other role, and the child is able to have either the mother/father as a main role. 2 fathers OR 2 mothers just doesnt work or do anything for a childs mind and it doesnt help in the social world that we live in today.
Sorry if this offends people, it is not ment to, maybe I may sound harsh. I hope I dont and you can take this on board as my opinion and I do NOT have anything wrong with gay people, I have gay friends, but if they ever wanted to adopt, I would say the same thing to them.
   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 4th 2010, 03:10 AM

If gays should have the right to adopt children, then I think Catholic organizations should be able to choose whether or not they want to allow gays to adopt children.

We are all entitled to our own rights, and in the US, at least, I would feel that forcing this organization to change their beliefs would be a violation of the first amendment. People may have beliefs that offend us, but that doesn't mean we should force them to change them. That's not the way it works.

I'm all for gay rights, but I'm always for religious rights. Sure it's not right to refuse to adoption rights for gays, but it's also not right to force a catholic organization to change their beliefs. Besides, there are plenty of other adoption agencies that are open to gays.





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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 5th 2010, 11:12 PM

I'm an advocate for equal rights of all walks of life..

HOWEVER

this is a private organization, they have the right to turn away applicants as they see fit, in my opinion. They have their own private governing body, and private set of rules and standards. This is not saying that homosexual couples cannot adopt, they just cannot adopt with them. Just as non-catholics(or perhaps just non-christians) wouold be turned away.

Just my 0.02


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 5th 2010, 11:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by EightEleven91 View Post
Im 'catholic' & im straight but I do know a few gay people and have nothing against them, now, this is where my post may cause a stir..
I do NOT agree with gay couples adopting a child. It is wrong beyond belief. A child, to grow up in the proper way needs a mother and a father to look up to. Not 2 fathers.
"What about people who dont have a father/mother in there life anyway?" Thats totally different. The mother/father can sort of take on the other role, and the child is able to have either the mother/father as a main role. 2 fathers OR 2 mothers just doesnt work or do anything for a childs mind and it doesnt help in the social world that we live in today.
Sorry if this offends people, it is not ment to, maybe I may sound harsh. I hope I dont and you can take this on board as my opinion and I do NOT have anything wrong with gay people, I have gay friends, but if they ever wanted to adopt, I would say the same thing to them.



I have a very close friend that was raised by two mothers, and she's perhaps one of the most stable, loving and accepting person I know.
Why must there be 1 mother and 1 father?
Why is it detrimental to the child to have two mothers or two fathers?
It's okay to have an opinion, but you need to back it up and support it.

Additionally, opinions and beliefs are fine - but how is it right for your opinion to conflict with other people's rights? How is it okay to tell a gay couple that they cannot adopt a child that needs parents because you're of the opinion that it's wrong?


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 6th 2010, 01:45 AM

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Originally Posted by BigBL87 View Post
But, as a private agency (unless they receive state funding, which would change the whole thing), they would have that right as well (speaking strictly by US standards).
But what they are doing involves children and babies. I would think the government would have some control over that.

Not to mention, private businesses can't not hire someone just because they are gay or black or white or straight or a woman or a man even if they have no government funding.


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 6th 2010, 01:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by EightEleven91 View Post
Im 'catholic' & im straight but I do know a few gay people and have nothing against them, now, this is where my post may cause a stir..
I do NOT agree with gay couples adopting a child. It is wrong beyond belief. A child, to grow up in the proper way needs a mother and a father to look up to. Not 2 fathers.
"What about people who dont have a father/mother in there life anyway?" Thats totally different. The mother/father can sort of take on the other role, and the child is able to have either the mother/father as a main role. 2 fathers OR 2 mothers just doesnt work or do anything for a childs mind and it doesnt help in the social world that we live in today.
Sorry if this offends people, it is not ment to, maybe I may sound harsh. I hope I dont and you can take this on board as my opinion and I do NOT have anything wrong with gay people, I have gay friends, but if they ever wanted to adopt, I would say the same thing to them.
So you're against single parents and would rather these children have no parents than two loving parents?


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 6th 2010, 03:27 AM

As a private organization, they should do as they please. However there are Catholics who are gay, do they get turned away too? I really don't think sexuality or religious beliefs should effect whether or not you can love and care for a child. Children need homes, so let them have a loving home, no matter if it's gay or straight.


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 6th 2010, 05:19 AM

Mmmm...I know it's a private organization and they are supposed to be able to choose who can adopt and whatnot...but still, it's discrimination. I think of it as similar to if airlines didn't let arabic people on planes because of terrorist attacks. Sure, they are a private company who should be able to do what they want, but it's still discrimination and should be stopped. Businesses aren't allowed to discriminate when they hire, and this private charity should be treated the same...


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 9th 2010, 12:52 AM

Well my two cents, this is a private organization and they should be allowed to dictate how they operate. Telling them how to run their adoption services would be like the government editing the Bible to make it fit their agenda. Not only that but this isn't all charities around the world not allowing gays to adopt, this is one charity, if you don't like how they do "business", then go somewhere else. That's why we have consumer choices, if you don't like that company, don't use their services!


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 10th 2010, 04:07 AM

It's a charity... Charities get tax breaks from the government... so its not really a private organisation. But in the UK, anti-discrimination laws can't be ignored by the excuse of 'private organisation'... the gay thing legally here is a human rights issue, not a morality issue. So it is universal to organisations in the UK, pretty much, with some exceptions perhaps as clergy. The UK is much more secular legally. And we aren't as capitalist as you guys in the USA, which means there's a different approach.

But as I pointed out in my earlier post, the Charity's website shows no suggestion that you are required to be Catholic to adopt from them, and single partners are allowed to adopt.

Also, a lot of these kids will never be able to find a home, so if two people, who can provide a stable, loving, safe home for a child to grow up in, then surely its immoral to choose to leave the kid homeless?

As to the person who suggested a child will suffer without a mother AND father, a kid is better off with a partner in the first place. And the most important trait of parents is love and desire to raise a kid, as well as the resources to. The gender and gender roles parents take on are less important. And by the way, most gay couples will have an opposite sex friend who'll probably be involved in the upbringing of a child Then there's other sources of gender role models, from TV, to teachers, to sports team coaches, etc. It's not like there's a lack of either men or women in the UK. Many kids of gay parents are reportedly well adjusted and happy (and straight if you were wondering)

And Holly, I'm pretty sure with the Equality laws, a gay organisation couldnt reject parents simply on the grounds they are Catholic. However if they were homophobic, there is an argument to suggest a danger for the child. What if the child turned out gay? Having anti-gay parents as a gay kid is foreseeably more harmful then a homophobic kid with gay parents.
   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 10th 2010, 05:30 AM

People need to understand that they cannot force everyone to share their views. I do not understand why gays preach equality, except when it comes to the other side. Are catholic churches not allowed equal freedoms to express what they feel is right?
Gay communities have plenty of other opportunities to assist in their own adoption-- they need not breach an institution that is clearly trying to do something for the 'straight community'


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 10th 2010, 06:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phin View Post
People need to understand that they cannot force everyone to share their views. I do not understand why gays preach equality, except when it comes to the other side. Are catholic churches not allowed equal freedoms to express what they feel is right?
Gay communities have plenty of other opportunities to assist in their own adoption-- they need not breach an institution that is clearly trying to do something for the 'straight community'
Why on earth should there be separate "communities" for gay and straight adoption? Surely everyone can agree that finding a loving home for a child is a good thing to do, even if you don't happen to agree with the parents' beliefs. What this charity is doing smacks of curing the disease by killing the patient. Children shouldn't suffer just because adults can't sort out their differences.

Hey, it's not often an atheist gets to preach "think of the children!"

And again, "equality" does not mean "equal right to discriminate." White charities shouldn't turn away black parents, black charities shouldn't turn away white parents, gay charities shouldn't turn away catholic parents, and catholic charities shouldn't turn away gay parents. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 24th 2010, 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toast View Post
So you're against single parents and would rather these children have no parents than two loving parents?
.. No, you didnt read my whole post did you.


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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 24th 2010, 04:56 PM

Eh i also agree that gay couples should have the same rights as everyone else. As long as they can show that they are fit to be parents, and can support/raise the child.




   
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Re: Catholic adoption charity fights gay rights law. - March 24th 2010, 05:39 PM

Eh, it's alright because it seems quite certain that the charity will be forced to allow gay couples to adopt in line with the paramouncy principle set out in section 1 of the Children Act 1989 and section 1 of the Adoption and Children Act 2002. If the welfare of the children is the court's highest priority in deciding the case then obviously it would be best for the children to have a stable and loving home with a gay family than no home at all so it would be best for gay couples to be allowed to adopt.
   
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