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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 23rd 2010, 01:30 AM

I found this article thanks to Stumble Upon, and it raises some interesting points.

While I know the whole world doesn't behave like this, it seems like in modern society... she's not that far off.

Anyway, read the article, and tell me what you guys think.

http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Articles...killed-it.html


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 23rd 2010, 05:59 AM

I agree with this to an extent. I mean, I don't believe chivalry is dead,(as a guy walked me to my dorm tonight so I wouldn't be alone and waited until I was inside to leave), but I believe that most women don't appreciate it.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 23rd 2010, 09:34 AM

I don't agree with that article at all.

It consisted of a woman who basically said "I do this! But I shouldn't do this! And men can't do this! But I want this!"

It's simple, really. Just don't do it.

I don't know anyone who would actually yell at someone for opening a door for them (it's common curtosy to hold the door open for someone whether you are male or female) and that 'secret story' sounds a bit ridiculous.

I mean, A fake millionare going undercover as a fireman? Sound real to anyone?

And any female in this day and age expecting a man to pay for her needs to pull her head in.

I find this article irritating not because I'm female but because I find this woman annoying.

The behaviour she talks about is ridiculous. If she does not like it, she shouldn't do it. If other people do it, they are just, sort of... stupid. And I refuse to believe an entire gender is that stupid.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 23rd 2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
And any female in this day and age expecting a man to pay for her needs to pull her head in.
You'd be surprised then at the amount of women, whether they are high-class millionaires or just snobs that aren't that rich, who demand this of their men. But more and more women are steering away from this line of thinking because it makes them dependent, and they want to be independent. Oddly enough though, those same women who want things purchased for them, often do want to be independent, just they want the man to pay for whatever.

I don't believe chivalry is dead though. With all the conflicts between both sexes on this and other things, there still are men who are chivalrous. However, there are many men who don't do it either because it doesn't occur to them to do it or they purposely won't. I'll admit, if there's a girl who I dislike, good chance I'm not going to go out of my way to be kind to her. But, I'd still do things like open doors or whatever because I don't need to struggle to do so. However, I probably wouldn't pay things for her or help her with other people, etc... . I do that to some of the girls I'm friends with, even though we're not boyfriend-girlfriend, providing it's not a lot to pay or not something extreme to do, as I'll carry a few $20 bills with me, not a few $100 bills.

Her example of the fireman who was secretly a millionaire, although ridiculous, is also one that'd work for men. If there was a female who was good-looking but lived in a slum in the worst neighbourhood, I don't then most men would let her live with him. But, if they found the good-looking female was filthy rich, then of course they'd want to be with her. It's simple: good looks and person but not much money vs good looks and person with lots of money.
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 23rd 2010, 04:37 PM

I don't think chivalry is dead. One of my best (male) friends will pay for me when we go out for lunch and hold the door for me etc, as do most of my male friends. My boyfriend is the same, holds doors etc, we went to the cinema on saturday and he payed for my ticket so I payed for popcorn


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 24th 2010, 02:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Serendipity. View Post
I don't think chivalry is dead. One of my best (male) friends will pay for me when we go out for lunch and hold the door for me etc, as do most of my male friends. My boyfriend is the same, holds doors etc, we went to the cinema on saturday and he payed for my ticket so I payed for popcorn
Can I ask why you are okay with your friends paying for you?


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 24th 2010, 05:16 AM

The points she raises about ego stroking, date paying, midlife crisis... etc I think are all legit, and I found myself agreeing with the article.

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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 24th 2010, 07:25 PM

It's funny, when I saw the title I immediately thought of Dave Chappelle. Even more funnier is that the author of the article mentioned him!

I will admit that the author is a tad bit over-zealous on how women should/shouldn't act, but like every opinion she is correct on some degree.

The "real-life" story was questionable, but the idea of it is that sort of thing happens everyday, that some women will needlessly overlook a man's great and genuine qualities. What was also questionable in realism was that the two of them stayed friends. I don't know about you guys, but I would definitely not stay friends with a woman that wouldn't date me if she would not be with me for the reason that was mentioned in the article, it'd just be flat out ridiculous to continue any relationship with that woman.

I recall my only girlfriend just hated the idea of me paying for her, or to tell her that I thought she was pretty or do anything nice for her. She DID almost kill Chivalry for me. If I could describe her.. She'd be (more or less)like one of the types of women that the author mentions in the article. But I know that not all girls are like her, so in fact, Chivalry is not dead for me. =]
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 24th 2010, 09:16 PM

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Can I ask why you are okay with your friends paying for you?

Why wouldn't I be? My friend likes to take me out and so does my boyfriend, I don't particularly think there is anything wrong with that especially as I don't always have money to go out. I'm not robbing them or anything I offer to give them money but they insist, they say like to pay for me?


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 24th 2010, 09:57 PM

I completely agree with this article. I am even amazed that it's actually written by a female. I hardly ever hear anything positive come out of a woman's mouth about men. She brings up good points, and some of those points I've been saying in various threads, video blogs on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tzGTdShTDU), and even blogs on TH! We have testosterone...so what? It's in our nature. We can't help the way we feel and don't need to be bitched at for nature creating us the way we are. And I agree on everything else that she's said. We're in this world together and therefore we are both at fault with the "battle of the sexes." We constantly argue about things and yet get no where. If only we could come to an understanding...
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 24th 2010, 11:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Serendipity. View Post
Why wouldn't I be? My friend likes to take me out and so does my boyfriend, I don't particularly think there is anything wrong with that especially as I don't always have money to go out. I'm not robbing them or anything I offer to give them money but they insist, they say like to pay for me?
No, I mean, you are entitled to do whatever you want... and if they're offering...


I just don't know why anyone would accept to have their way payed by a friend. When most people don't have money to go out they just don't go out. Don't you feel kind of... scabby? I know I would.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 24th 2010, 11:46 PM

Here, most people are polite so males and females hold doors open, etc. For both males and females. It's just courtesy. As for chivalry: I expect anyone to be polite but I don't need to be protected from reality. I can walk through puddles without fainting from shock. I think it's nice if a man opens a car door for me but I don't expect it. Really though, I think polite gestures like that should be expected from both sides. I want to be treated as an equal but there is no reason why both sides can't perform kind gestures. I would like it if my boyfriend paid for me as long as I pay for him other times.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 25th 2010, 07:33 AM

I see where she's coming from but it's a bit extreme.
Yes some are like that, but not everyone.
And the part about making fun of his mid life crisis.. I don't know anyone who would do that. I sure as hell would help him in every way I could.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 25th 2010, 10:25 AM

Ech, see, I agree about the part about modern women... one of my ex's was almost a nightmare caricature of that kind of person...

*shrugs*

In general though, I have to say like, if someone started moaning at me nowadays for holding the door open for them, since I'd do that even for a stranger who was walking close behind me in uni or whatever, I'd probably remark aloud how it would have been better for society if the door had smashed their teeth in. I mean, I'm polite, but if people are going to be giant dicks, I get to be a dick back, it's only fair




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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 25th 2010, 01:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
No, I mean, you are entitled to do whatever you want... and if they're offering...


I just don't know why anyone would accept to have their way payed by a friend. When most people don't have money to go out they just don't go out. Don't you feel kind of... scabby? I know I would.
No I don't feel scabby at all. If I wanted to see a friend but they had no money and I did then I would pay for them, it's the same thing. You make it sound like I am taking advantage or like they are just buying me stuff all the time. It's hardly a big deal for them to buy me lunch? If it was people I didn't know then probably, yes, I wouldn't want to but since we are friends I don't mind accepting money from them or giving it to them.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 25th 2010, 08:43 PM

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Here, most people are polite so males and females hold doors open, etc. For both males and females. It's just courtesy. As for chivalry: I expect anyone to be polite but I don't need to be protected from reality. I can walk through puddles without fainting from shock. I think it's nice if a man opens a car door for me but I don't expect it. Really though, I think polite gestures like that should be expected from both sides. I want to be treated as an equal but there is no reason why both sides can't perform kind gestures. I would like it if my boyfriend paid for me as long as I pay for him other times.
I agree with this, I expect both side to act with courtesy. If you see a man with both hands full who can't open a door you are not going to shut the door in his face because "woman don't hold doors for man" it's just a matter of good manners and people respecting others.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 25th 2010, 10:59 PM

I spend a lot of time reading up about feminism, anti-feminsm, womens rights, mens rights etc. And if you spend the time to read and think in general, rather than just thinking "I haven't seen that happen in the past month!" I think you'd probably see that it's very common these days.

These days, it's seen as cool to be a feminist. It's cool to be independent, to not rely on men, to do things for yourself. If you either disagree with feminism, disagree partially, or simply don't pick a side, you're called either a sexist or a male chauvinist. Don't try and tell me that's not true.
I know it's not the mindset of the majority of feminists, but unfortunately there are a number of radical feminists who tarnish the good reputation of the larger collective. I guess some people could call me sexist, but I just think that if God wanted men and women to be able to do the exact same things to the exact same extent, while neither have an advantage over the other, he'd have made us the same but with the different genitals. He made men and women, and he made them different. Men stronger and bigger, women smaller and thinner. (triangle shape, hourglass shape) While I'm for feminism in general, anyone who tries to tell me that men and women are of totally equal opportunity/skill is totally wrong IMO. For instance, I can't imagine why anyone would think that a woman is going to be as good as a man in combat in the army (SPECIFICALLY COMBAT). Before you launch into a tirade, read this and then make your mind up.

Getting back to the real point though, I'd agree with the post title. It is slowly dying. 1950's, it was rude not to hold a door for a lady, or to open the car door etc. 2010, open the door in the office or offer a lady your seat in the lunch hall and they can sue you for sexual harassment, sex discrimination etc.

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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 26th 2010, 02:28 AM

There may be a few women out there like that, but I think for the majority of women chivalry is just an asset rather than a necessity. I'll be honest, it's nice to be pampered. So, a guy who opens doors for me and pays for my dinner is more likely to win my heart than one who doesn't. However, I would never dump a guy just because he doesn't do those things, and I don't believe most other women would either.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 26th 2010, 10:05 AM

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2010, open the door in the office or offer a lady your seat in the lunch hall and they can sue you for sexual harassment, sex discrimination etc.
LOL. What kind of world do you live in where someone can sue you for opening a door?

Ever been to GWS RainOnMe?


To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget

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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 26th 2010, 10:08 AM

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LOL. What kind of world do you live in where someone can sue you for opening a door?

Ever been to GWS RainOnMe?
I was obviously understating the actual opening of the door. I was simply emphasising that point that it's actually very difficult to be in an office and escape any type of threat like this. Lawsuit won't get anywhere, but it happens all the time. The woman claims sex discrimination in the work place, lawsuit starts, man loses job, suit denied. I follow 4 forums, 2 sub-reddits and 3 blogs. I know almost every case that goes to the press . One particularly reliable source of news is here. Almost any news that has anything to do with feminism/mens rights gets posted there, and there's a lot of intelligent conversation from both genders.
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 26th 2010, 10:45 AM

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I was obviously understating the actual opening of the door. I was simply emphasising that point that it's actually very difficult to be in an office and escape any type of threat like this. Lawsuit won't get anywhere, but it happens all the time. The woman claims sex discrimination in the work place, lawsuit starts, man loses job, suit denied. I follow 4 forums, 2 sub-reddits and 3 blogs. I know almost every case that goes to the press . One particularly reliable source of news is here. Almost any news that has anything to do with feminism/mens rights gets posted there, and there's a lot of intelligent conversation from both genders.
I don't indentify with feminism because of those things. Don't get me wrong, I think feminism has done some wonderful, amazing things. But now, in modern western society, I find the whole thing a little pointless. I think women are equal and yet there are still people in society who are not treated equally. There are bigger issues.

I think a lot of modern feminists are only fueled by their hatred of men. When people talk about how hard it is to be a woman, I usually roll my eyes. Obviously, I AM a woman. I'm very liberal, not at all conservative or tradtional. I believe women can do most things men can do and vice versa.

And of course, I've had things happen to me before that annoyed me, like men who assume I am interested in fashion and fairly dense or unwanted sexual comments that go way beyond innocent flirting. I just think though that this doesn't happen 24/7, and it must be SO much easier to be a white woman in this society than it is to be say muslim or disabled.

HOWEVER, (and I assume you are one) I find MRA's just as annoying and overdramatic as feminists. I hope one of the websites you go to isn't Antimisandry. They're totally ridiculous 99% of the time AND they have started two threads slagging me off for my comments on GWS

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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 26th 2010, 05:54 PM

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I can't imagine why anyone would think that a woman is going to be as good as a man in combat in the army (SPECIFICALLY COMBAT). Before you launch into a tirade, read this and then make your mind up.
Really. Did YOU even read that?
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 26th 2010, 08:19 PM

I have a hard time believing that chivalry is dead. I'm in a middle school where teenage boys, the most immature type of them, act extremely chivalrous towards the girls. And the girls tend to do the same for the guys.

In my math class, the boys stand aside to let the girls go in first(which might be because we're all scared of the teacher...). In my choir class, the boys ALWAYS hold the door open until the last girl comes in. Chivalry might be dead among certain places, but with my age group in my town, is sure isn't!
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 26th 2010, 09:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
I don't indentify with feminism because of those things. Don't get me wrong, I think feminism has done some wonderful, amazing things. But now, in modern western society, I find the whole thing a little pointless. I think women are equal and yet there are still people in society who are not treated equally. There are bigger issues.

I think a lot of modern feminists are only fueled by their hatred of men. When people talk about how hard it is to be a woman, I usually roll my eyes. Obviously, I AM a woman. I'm very liberal, not at all conservative or tradtional. I believe women can do most things men can do and vice versa.

And of course, I've had things happen to me before that annoyed me, like men who assume I am interested in fashion and fairly dense or unwanted sexual comments that go way beyond innocent flirting. I just think though that this doesn't happen 24/7, and it must be SO much easier to be a white woman in this society than it is to be say muslim or disabled.

HOWEVER, (and I assume you are one) I find MRA's just as annoying and overdramatic as feminists. I hope one of the websites you go to isn't Antimisandry. They're totally ridiculous 99% of the time AND they have started two threads slagging me off for my comments on GWS

KM c/ SMD
Who are MRA? I'm guessing Mens Rights Association or something? No, I'm not. I simply keep up with a few blogs and a sub-reddit!
But I agree with you on everything you said actually.
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 27th 2010, 03:15 AM

I would never expect the girl to pay for something when she is with me, it is rude and classless for a man to expect a woman, especially a girlfriend, to pay for things while out on a date or as friends. Now I don't mean like buying clothes and jewelry, but food, tickets, etc. are part of the man's responsibility.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 28th 2010, 04:28 PM

Frankly, I had trouble reading that article because it irritated me so much. She refers to women as "we," but then turns around and says "Well, my husband and I don't have these problems, but obviously every other woman is a selfish, immature idiot!" She claims to have realized this colossal thing about how it's okay to be equal... And she's acting like she honestly believes she's one of the first to see this.

I don't think chivalry is dead. I think chivalry has evolved. A man holding the door open for a woman does not, in my opinion and experience, mean that he thinks she is weak or not independent. He knows damn well she can hold her own door. (Obviously, this isn't just about the door, but every act of chivalry.) It's respect. And women do things for men out of respect, not obligation or because "he can't."



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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 28th 2010, 05:10 PM

If a women ever yelled at me for holding a door open for her I'd slam it shut and hold it and tell her to go threw the glass if she really wants to prove she doesn't need "help"
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 28th 2010, 07:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
I don't indentify with feminism because of those things. Don't get me wrong, I think feminism has done some wonderful, amazing things. But now, in modern western society, I find the whole thing a little pointless. I think women are equal and yet there are still people in society who are not treated equally. There are bigger issues.
Just as a common example, there is still a sex pay gap. There are still discriminations, such as women are less likely to get hired for management jobs unless they are more nutruting than their male counterparts, women are still more objectified than men (men are becoming more so) which does lead to more ill mental health (e.g. eating disorders), and so on. Of course I'll acknowledge men experience issues from sexism, but usually it stems out of the same problem that is effecting women, just in a different way. But basically, no offence, but this is like saying gays are now equal. There is clearly still more work to do. Also, its a bigger problem when you variate a lot from how women 'should' be.

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I think a lot of modern feminists are only fueled by their hatred of men. When people talk about how hard it is to be a woman, I usually roll my eyes. Obviously, I AM a woman. I'm very liberal, not at all conservative or tradtional. I believe women can do most things men can do and vice versa.
Im not saying its *really* hard to be a woman, and for most women, the issues wont be explicitly obvious in their day to day lives, becuase you are simply use to it. Its not really an issue of easy or hard... but an issue of fair. A lot of modern feminists really dont hate men. This is like saying most Muslims are suicide bombers. Considering most feminists are straight and sexually active, its a bit hard to actually be simply fueled by hatred for men (well I guess angry sex is hot but I doubt its like that ). I suppose it depends where you look. I've never actually met a man hating feminist, gay, straight, or bi. I've met male feminists? I've also met some over the top feminists, for example the ones that use 'womyn'. But most are simply after gender equality. In the UK at least it seems this way.

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And of course, I've had things happen to me before that annoyed me, like men who assume I am interested in fashion and fairly dense or unwanted sexual comments that go way beyond innocent flirting. I just think though that this doesn't happen 24/7, and it must be SO much easier to be a white woman in this society than it is to be say muslim or disabled.
Thats because of the white priviledge of our countries. The people with the most power in our societies are still the white, straight, middle-class men. A lot of modern feminism does talk and campaign for the broader issues (e.g. homophobia), because they see it all as instrinsically caused by the same institutions.

I also have to add, as someone who has in the past been able to pass as a boy, I find there is a subtle difference in how Im treated as a boy as opposed to a girl. Its more patronising vibes when being read as a 20 year old female, as oppose to a 15 year old boy. Which I find odd. Maybe thats just me. If you can pass as a boy, I suggest you try it, it is an interesting experience

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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 29th 2010, 05:14 AM

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I guess some people could call me sexist, but I just think that if God wanted men and women to be able to do the exact same things to the exact same extent, while neither have an advantage over the other, he'd have made us the same but with the different genitals. He made men and women, and he made them different. Men stronger and bigger, women smaller and thinner. (triangle shape, hourglass shape) While I'm for feminism in general, anyone who tries to tell me that men and women are of totally equal opportunity/skill is totally wrong IMO. For instance, I can't imagine why anyone would think that a woman is going to be as good as a man in combat in the army (SPECIFICALLY COMBAT).
SOME people would call you sexist? Isn't the definition of sexism believing in inequality between men and women? That's exactly what you just stated. Basically what you just said is: I support women being equal but I don't think men and women are equal. You also posted no proof, but simply your opinion. If you're going to make a statement like that you better back it up or else all you're doing is causing anger rather than trying to have a debate. Sure, perhaps men may generally be more muscular than women, but that doesn't mean that on a person by person basis a man will always be stronger than a woman. It doesn't mean men are born with combat skills or are necessarily more skilled than women. That goes both ways... we aren't always good at the things that women are supposed to be good at. I would be a terrible mother, for example. I hate children.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 29th 2010, 11:33 PM

I feel that perhaps my first post did not give my stance justice, so I'll attempt to re-word it in a less demeaning and/or insulting way. Hopefully this time I'll do myself a little credit instead of looking like an anti-feminist pig.

Sexism: (n) sexism (discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of the opposite sex)

Men and women are not the same, but neither are superior to the other. Men have their advantages, women have theirs. Women should have the same rights as a man has. But saying that (for example) '50% of teams in a work place MUST be women' is not feminism. Feminism is the fight for equal rights for both women [i]and[/] men, and that's not what is.

I just don't think there's going to be much need for feminism any more.. We've got about as close to total equality as we're ever going to get without one side having the upper hand. There's the wage gap to take care of, but we'll have to see what studies etc. show about it, and theres not many other pressing problems to take care of that I know about. You cannot do anything about social norms other than complain and do your best to disprove it by being the opposite, which in itself is pointless as it's not you being yourself (if that makes sense. It did in my head.).

Some genders are better at some things than the other gender. For example, men must be doing some things better than women at leadership, as most people (both genders) would prefer a male boss. Evidence: here and here.

I'm sure women do things better than men, too. I know for a fact that women communicate better and live longer.

Hopefully this post made amends for the, frankly, sexist and anger-tinged original post of mine.

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I also have to add, as someone who has in the past been able to pass as a boy, I find there is a subtle difference in how Im treated as a boy as opposed to a girl. Its more patronising vibes when being read as a 20 year old female, as oppose to a 15 year old boy. Which I find odd. Maybe thats just me. If you can pass as a boy, I suggest you try it, it is an interesting experience
I'm interested. What sort of differences did you notice, with an outside perspective? Was their any significantly noticeable differences in the way they acted towards you?
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 30th 2010, 09:40 AM

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SOME people would call you sexist? Isn't the definition of sexism believing in inequality between men and women? That's exactly what you just stated. Basically what you just said is: I support women being equal but I don't think men and women are equal. You also posted no proof, but simply your opinion. If you're going to make a statement like that you better back it up or else all you're doing is causing anger rather than trying to have a debate. Sure, perhaps men may generally be more muscular than women, but that doesn't mean that on a person by person basis a man will always be stronger than a woman. It doesn't mean men are born with combat skills or are necessarily more skilled than women. That goes both ways... we aren't always good at the things that women are supposed to be good at. I would be a terrible mother, for example. I hate children.
I think a more proper way to state what he said, with a bit more tact would be,

"Men and women are equally important for differing reasons, but the input of woman should be taken just as equally as her male counterpart on appropriate matters."


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 30th 2010, 10:40 AM

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Just as a common example, there is still a sex pay gap. There are still discriminations, such as women are less likely to get hired for management jobs unless they are more nutruting than their male counterparts,
My problem with the 'pay gap' is that it is not sector specific and based on estimates across all fields. Of course they are not simply guesses but it would be impossible to get records of everything every one earns legally (and obviously those figures would change daily anyway). So you've got for instance a teachers salary being compared to a cleaners. If we were to say look at lawyers and find that females earn 15% less than men, then that would be something.

Women take time off to raise children, so of course 'on average' men will earn more than women. If that's the actual problem (that women are still considered the main caregivers) then maybe that's something to talk about. However, it is still a personal choice to get pregnant, be a stay at home parent etc. Maybe that is unfair (and I'll contend that it's completely unequal how we almost expect women to do 'most of the work' when it comes to child rearing in this day and age) but a lot of that is based on pure and simple biology and not unfair laws or anything like that.

My other problem is that people who take issue with this and other so called gender equalities in the work place (that isn't to say their aren't any) is that people are so selective in what they get angry about. For instance, I often hear about the inequalities with regards to women being CEO's, politicians etc and there are figures to support those facts. Nobody ever says women are treated unequally in hard labour or trade industries. Is it because women or the feminists talking about this just don't want jobs as construction workers or plumbers or forestry workers?

I'm not saying women MUST have those jobs. I'm not rushing out to be a construction worker. I'm just saying that it's a bit hypocritical to demand to be heard and seen in one area then totally ignore another just because you aren't really interested in it. I'm sure if more women DID take jobs in construction work and the like the pay gap would be much smaller.

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women are still more objectified than men (men are becoming more so) which does lead to more ill mental health (e.g. eating disorders), and so on.
I agree with this but I don't neccecarily think it has sexist roots, and I think women play as big a part in this as anything. It's such a shame we live in such a shallow society that seems to value looks more than brains. I definitely agree something needs to radically change here.


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Of course I'll acknowledge men experience issues from sexism, but usually it stems out of the same problem that is effecting women, just in a different way.
But if you acknowledge men also experience similar problems then shouldn't this be an issue about gender equality rather than feminism? It's a bit silly (I mean generally not for you) to say 'Well, I can see both sexes are discriminated against however I only want to be an advocate for one'.

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Originally Posted by Invert View Post
But basically, no offence, but this is like saying gays are now equal.
I don't think it is similar at all. Females are not a minority.

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A lot of modern feminists really dont hate men. This is like saying most Muslims are suicide bombers.
I'm not sure if I said 'most' but I apologise if I did for not expressing myself better. I don't think most feminists are sexists because I think most people who call themselves feminists just do so as they believe men and women should be equal.

I question the motives of people who go out to rallies and spend their time dedicated to 'improving the rights of women' in our society as I believe for the most part we have equality. Do I think some things are a bit unequal? Sure. Same for men. I just don't think it's a burning issue and I struggle to see why someone would be so passionate about such a small issue in modern society.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 30th 2010, 01:13 PM

Feminism in esscense is suppose to aim at sexual equality, it is meant to equal anti-sexism, some branches take away from that, others include men, and mention men's issues. But I suppose a good point I've heard is that crossing out of your gender expectations is unbeneficial for both men and women, however, following your gender'[s expected roles puts men in a position of power, and women in a lower role. So it is more pressing for one over the other. But with all the queer studies and breaking down of gender role ideas feminists take parti n, it kinda works both ways. If men actually joined in instead of simply bitching about feminists, then more focus could be added to it. But I'll agree there are issues within the feminist movement, but there are issues within all liberation movements. Also the fact women are not a minority is kinda the point, women are still to an extent (lesser admittedly) oppressed, they've been massively oppressed throughout history, and yet they sometimes make up over half the population. Something is wrong there.

Also some of the pay gap, in reference to the pregnancy thing comes from the assumption a woman will want to get pregnant so therefore even if she doesnt, he's less likely to get that promotion.

And self-objectification the part women plays, is learnt through exposure to objectification. Hence as men are becoming more objectified today, more of them are experiencing self-objectification.

*Like saying a lot of Muslims are suicide bombers. (The first sentence used a lot...)

But social attitudes are the biggest issue.... and the only way to change them is by campaigning, leaving them be doesn't do much. Social attitudes can change, and they have a fair amount. But for example, RainOnMe's attitude does show even how some people who believe in equality are sexists. This idea that women cannot serve on the front line. Really its a certain amount of women. As in, it should always be based on an individual. If you go and can't pass the health and fitness tests, then you simply can't pass them, but if you can, it shouldnt matter if you are male or female, you should be allowed to do that if you want to do that. Women who train get get physically fit enough. For example, our olmypic female atheletes are likely to be fitter then most of the front line soldiers. With training the female and male differences decrease. Not to mention brute strength is less relevent to modern warfare with the use of deadly non-physical weapons, aka guns and bombs. And the army of all places should be basing it on the individual not their sex because it is a government run organisation (I think other places should too, but government has no excuse).

As for the CEO vs lumberjack thing. You must remember, we live in a capitalist country. The potential to earn is always going to be important in a capitalist country. But some women do want to build and Im sure cut trees. Again the actual focus on what is talked about will depend on who the speaker is, and what they want,and the point they are trying to make. If you say took RainOnMe's approach, it is far more reasonable for women to complain that women basically stand no chance (notice basically, which acknowledges exceptions) at becoming CEOs than lumberjacks or builders, because the latter needs certain levels of physical strength. But also, women don't go into these careers very often because they are seen as 'men's jobs'. This is a social attitude issue.
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 30th 2010, 09:44 PM

I am glad to say I am nothing like that. Probably cos I am needy, pathetic and don't stand up for myself but whatever.
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 30th 2010, 10:06 PM

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Originally Posted by RainOnMe View Post
I feel that perhaps my first post did not give my stance justice, so I'll attempt to re-word it in a less demeaning and/or insulting way. Hopefully this time I'll do myself a little credit instead of looking like an anti-feminist pig.

Sexism: (n) sexism (discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of the opposite sex)

Men and women are not the same, but neither are superior to the other. Men have their advantages, women have theirs. Women should have the same rights as a man has. But saying that (for example) '50% of teams in a work place MUST be women' is not feminism. Feminism is the fight for equal rights for both women [i]and[/] men, and that's not what is.

I just don't think there's going to be much need for feminism any more.. We've got about as close to total equality as we're ever going to get without one side having the upper hand. There's the wage gap to take care of, but we'll have to see what studies etc. show about it, and theres not many other pressing problems to take care of that I know about. You cannot do anything about social norms other than complain and do your best to disprove it by being the opposite, which in itself is pointless as it's not you being yourself (if that makes sense. It did in my head.).

Some genders are better at some things than the other gender. For example, men must be doing some things better than women at leadership, as most people (both genders) would prefer a male boss. Evidence: here and here.

I'm sure women do things better than men, too. I know for a fact that women communicate better and live longer.

Hopefully this post made amends for the, frankly, sexist and anger-tinged original post of mine.

Not really, because "Some genders are better at some things than the other gender. For example, men must be doing some things better than women at leadership, as most people (both genders) would prefer a male boss. Evidence: here and here." is still a sexist conclusion. I think that this is simply a result of most of society still having sexist views without realizing it. The reason there are less female leaders is because of this, they do not believe that women could be as good as men and because it is harder for women to become leaders, not because they are worse at it. Did it not occur to you that perhaps people would prefer a male boss because they often see male politicians and other leaders while women are barely even represented at all? Besides that, just because more men are better bosses than women doesn't mean that a women is going to be a poor leader. To me, your statement seems to be alike me saying that I would be a better leader because I'm white. I certainly do not believe that I will be better at certain things than a man just because I'm a woman. That goes both ways. There is proof that more men are better at math than women, but that doesn't mean that a man will automatically be better than me at math. In fact, I'm better at math than most men.


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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 30th 2010, 10:21 PM

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Not really, because "Some genders are better at some things than the other gender. For example, men must be doing some things better than women at leadership, as most people (both genders) would prefer a male boss. Evidence: here and here." is still a sexist conclusion. I think that this is simply a result of most of society still having sexist views without realizing it. The reason there are less female leaders is because of this, they do not believe that women could be as good as men and because it is harder for women to become leaders, not because they are worse at it. Did it not occur to you that perhaps people would prefer a male boss because they often see male politicians and other leaders while women are barely even represented at all? Besides that, just because more men are better bosses than women doesn't mean that a women is going to be a poor leader. To me, your statement seems to be alike me saying that I would be a better leader because I'm white. I certainly do not believe that I will be better at certain things than a man just because I'm a woman. That goes both ways. There is proof that more men are better at math than women, but that doesn't mean that a man will automatically be better than me at math. In fact, I'm better at math than most men.
It's not a sexist conclusion, you just seem to want to label me that. If you think it's sexist, take it up with the people that participated in the poll. I'm stating the facts that men obviously are doing something better/right that people prefer, as both genders would rather have a male leader. If you'd read the articles given, you'd have seen that there were reasons given, not just 'we prefer men because we see them more in politics'. Did it not occurr to you that if you read the links you might see things different from what you saw in your head? I guess not.
The people who voted said, for example, that women couldn't keep personal and work lives separate, and brought their problems to the work place.
That's not an issue with gender perception, no matter which way you try and twist the words.
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 31st 2010, 12:24 AM

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Not really, because "Some genders are better at some things than the other gender. For example, men must be doing some things better than women at leadership, as most people (both genders) would prefer a male boss. Evidence: here and here." is still a sexist conclusion. I think that this is simply a result of most of society still having sexist views without realizing it. The reason there are less female leaders is because of this, they do not believe that women could be as good as men and because it is harder for women to become leaders, not because they are worse at it. Did it not occur to you that perhaps people would prefer a male boss because they often see male politicians and other leaders while women are barely even represented at all? Besides that, just because more men are better bosses than women doesn't mean that a women is going to be a poor leader. To me, your statement seems to be alike me saying that I would be a better leader because I'm white. I certainly do not believe that I will be better at certain things than a man just because I'm a woman. That goes both ways. There is proof that more men are better at math than women, but that doesn't mean that a man will automatically be better than me at math. In fact, I'm better at math than most men.
We'll use a different example.

Say your going to get into a fight with someone, who you want behind your back, a full grown man or a full grown women, 95% of the time, its gonna be the guy you want backing you up, due to the fact that when it comes down to it, the male form is more intimidating than the female form, and in a situation where intimidation may come in handy, your gonna want this.
Now say your in a debate with someone who's getting a bit to angry, what are you gonna want? A guy with a big booming voice or a female with a soft sensitive voice?
Either or, it all comes down to a choice on what you feel will help more, a soft voice may calm them down, but the deep voice of a man has more authority to it and may just shut them up.

Now lets say you have to try and talk to someone you may not be comfortable with (i.e a boss) a female is much easier to talk to in a lot of cases because of the voice, the way they cary themselves and just the entire idea of a "woman" can be very respectable and easy to talk to, while the idea of a "man" can sometimes be intimidating and may make it harder.


As we can see, it depends on what YOU feel, and not other people. Just because I think a man is going to be more intimidating in a violent situation then a female would doesn't make me sexist, and the fact that I think a female is easier to talk to when I may not necessarily be comfortable in the situation doesn't make me think Men shouldn't be the boss of a company.


And the reason they're isn't more female leaders is for a few reasons.
1) A female isn't as intimidating as a male, and in a situation of war, you can't have a small female body at the head of a country, you need a man, you'll probably say "well women can be just as intimidating as men"...yes maybe if they are the same size, and most women we see dealing with politics aren't 6'0, 185lbs+, you need a strong looking leader if a country wants to be deemed "strong"
2) Even if U.S and Canadian citizens wouldn't mind having a female leader, on a global scale females don't have the same "equality" (couldnt think of a good word) as men, and a female leader may be looked at as "weak" and easy to take advantage of, while its not right, its something that other countries may view as an opportunity to try and get things to swing in they're favour, and that can't be happening.
3) Behind alot of leaders is a good woman, just because a woman doesn't have the title of "president" doesn't mean she isn't doing a hell of alot for the country, the fact that they have to have the title sounds pretty "me, me, me", who cares if she has the title, she's doing work and she knows it, why does it matter?

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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 31st 2010, 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainOnMe View Post


It's not a sexist conclusion, you just seem to want to label me that. If you think it's sexist, take it up with the people that participated in the poll. I'm stating the facts that men obviously are doing something better/right that people prefer, as both genders would rather have a male leader. If you'd read the articles given, you'd have seen that there were reasons given, not just 'we prefer men because we see them more in politics'. Did it not occurr to you that if you read the links you might see things different from what you saw in your head? I guess not.
The people who voted said, for example, that women couldn't keep personal and work lives separate, and brought their problems to the work place.
That's not an issue with gender perception, no matter which way you try and twist the words.
Um... lol... yes it is. How is that not? That are people's perceptions of women. This is the increase sexist social attitude problems that are the remaining problem. Sex stereotypes are often simply false or overstatements. Until recent years even scientists thought men were by default smarter than women. This has been disproven. People have expectations and opinions of women based on sexist baises. Like with the idea real men don't cry, which I hope you would understand is nonsense. And men can't be good primary caregivers (which considering previous posts you've made, such as complaining women are more frequently given custody, I hope you also don't agree with).

There is a lot of psychological evidence that we assume men know more or are more worthy of trust and respect than women. It has nothing to do with men doing something better.

Opinion polls don't get to the fact there are biases. The very fact that you are going to judge a woman and assume she's bringing 'problems to work' before you've even meet her, and you assume a man won't, is sexist.

The only real differences on a day-to-day basis between men and women are physical ability. There are a handful of differences between men and women psychologically and cognitively, and they aren't that great, even the big differences still have A LOT of over lap between the sexes. Other than that, men and women are basically the same. Men and women are more similar than different. To argue against this is arguing in the face of science.

This is an article published in the American Psychologist:

http://pdfcast.org/pdf/the-gender-si...ies-hypothesis

It's a literature review of an array of meta-studies, and a summary. Basically it takes a lot of info from a lot of articles that have reviewed a range of other articles on sex differences. So there is a lot of data there. And it explains briefly differences, similarities, and things that can effect them. Now, this is something from my degree, it is pretty complex at times on statistical analysis. I'll understand if you can't understand it as you haven't learnt about effect sizes, and statistical analysis yet.

Here's a simplier, less scientific jargon-filled article from the Gaurdian that makes some of the same points. Doesn't quite cover it all, and takes a slightly different focus from the prefered above article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ay?CMP=twt_iph

Nevertheless, at the end of the day, you hold a fair amount of sexism. Even if there are differences between men and women, the diffewrences you hold and reasons for holding them are not based on truth, and it IS a prejudice.

Quote:
And the reason they're isn't more female leaders is for a few reasons.
1) A female isn't as intimidating as a male, and in a situation of war, you can't have a small female body at the head of a country, you need a man, you'll probably say "well women can be just as intimidating as men"...yes maybe if they are the same size, and most women we see dealing with politics aren't 6'0, 185lbs+, you need a strong looking leader if a country wants to be deemed "strong"
George Bush was really intimidating Barack Obama is obviously also terrifying [/sarcasm]. The US Armed Forces on the otherhand... well nukes, bombs, and guns are a tad more scary

And I'm Canadian, but I have to say, Canada isn't remotely intimidating, you could have a 6'5" 250lb weight lifter as PM, and well, fact remains, you aren't intimidating. David Cameron, UK PM, not intimidating. Tony Blair, was not remotely intimidating. See, your leader does not need to be intimidating, your country does. You leader needs much more intelligence and political skills, and your armed forces, political and economic statuses should be intimidating. If you are in a political situation, and you are a big burly man, and you are trying to be intimidating, you'll come across as a joke. How many people take Arnie seriously?

Quote:
2) Even if U.S and Canadian citizens wouldn't mind having a female leader, on a global scale females don't have the same "equality" (couldnt think of a good word) as men, and a female leader may be looked at as "weak" and easy to take advantage of, while its not right, its something that other countries may view as an opportunity to try and get things to swing in they're favour, and that can't be happening.
Lol, even if US and Canadian citizens wouldn't mind? What, are you the only developed countries? Do you entirely forget... um... Europe? Australia? And the fact there are various other developed countries around the world, and suprisingly some developing countries that... well... have females in power? I believe India for example have a woman. The UK awhile back had Magerate Thatcher. She was hardcore, and ruthless. She's still remembered today. Liberals hate her, conservatives love her, on the whole. People did not mess her around because she was a woman. And even if other countries might try to take advantage, you'd hope if the woman got to power, she and her advisers are good enough to not be tricked? You can see when you are being given a bad deal. And again, America had GEORGE BUSH for like a decade, and he was moronically stupid! And also, if you never do something incase some countries are behind, then you are effectively justifying never changes unjust things because of the intolerance of others. In countries which are pro-justice, you can't be doing that. Not to mention, most of the powerful countries you'd be dealing with on a worldwide scale are going to be the developed countries, which are usually pretty progressive.

Quote:
3) Behind alot of leaders is a good woman, just because a woman doesn't have the title of "president" doesn't mean she isn't doing a hell of alot for the country, the fact that they have to have the title sounds pretty "me, me, me", who cares if she has the title, she's doing work and she knows it, why does it matter?
It's not so much 'me, me, me' but the fact it's not right that in order to be involved in high up politcs, you have to become a men's wife. This pretty much screws over any lesbians, or women who do like to make their own way, or don't find out male politicians attractive (I can totally understand that), or don't just want to play a PA role, if they want to be a politician. Also, it's entirely human to desire credit for what you are doing.

Last edited by Marvin; August 31st 2010 at 10:27 AM.
   
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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 31st 2010, 04:08 PM

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Originally Posted by Invert View Post

George Bush was really intimidating Barack Obama is obviously also terrifying [/sarcasm]. The US Armed Forces on the otherhand... well nukes, bombs, and guns are a tad more scary

And I'm Canadian, but I have to say, Canada isn't remotely intimidating, you could have a 6'5" 250lb weight lifter as PM, and well, fact remains, you aren't intimidating. David Cameron, UK PM, not intimidating. Tony Blair, was not remotely intimidating. See, your leader does not need to be intimidating, your country does. You leader needs much more intelligence and political skills, and your armed forces, political and economic statuses should be intimidating. If you are in a political situation, and you are a big burly man, and you are trying to be intimidating, you'll come across as a joke. How many people take Arnie seriously?
Your looking to far into what I meant, I mean in certain situations you need intimidation (may not be the best word to use), always if your trying to scare people during a meeting its a pretty dumb thing to do, but if you try to say someone who is completely passive and basing everything on their "intelligence and political skills" it won't work 100% of the time, there is times when you need to have an "intimidation" factor, why do you think no one really fucks with the US? Because they knew Bush was ready to go to war, and alot of people realize its not a good idea to go to war with the US, in that situation, you need to have someone who can "intimidate".
Lol, even if US and Canadian citizens wouldn't mind? What, are you the only developed countries? Do you entirely forget... um... Europe? Australia? And the fact there are various other developed countries around the world, and suprisingly some developing countries that... well... have females in power? I believe India for example have a woman. The UK awhile back had Magerate Thatcher. She was hardcore, and ruthless. She's still remembered today. Liberals hate her, conservatives love her, on the whole. People did not mess her around because she was a woman. And even if other countries might try to take advantage, you'd hope if the woman got to power, she and her advisers are good enough to not be tricked? You can see when you are being given a bad deal. And again, America had GEORGE BUSH for like a decade, and he was moronically stupid! And also, if you never do something incase some countries are behind, then you are effectively justifying never changes unjust things because of the intolerance of others. In countries which are pro-justice, you can't be doing that. Not to mention, most of the powerful countries you'd be dealing with on a worldwide scale are going to be the developed countries, which are usually pretty progressive.

1) You listed two continents...
2) Dubyah was president for 8 years, and he wasn't as stupid as people think (which seems like alot of people are so quick to say, but don't realize that opinion doesn't equal fact) He fucked alot of things up, but he also did work, people may not agree with his methods but thats they're problem (I'd like to add I don't like George, but people calling him "stupid" pisses me off, its like when people say Hitler was stupid)
3) A few countries have had a female leader, yes. But why don't they still? Obviously something isn't working out is it? Obviously its going to work out sometimes, but imagine if a female was in office while the US was fucking with Iraq and Iran? Do you think a country like that is going to take a women seriously in office? Obviously its not right and she would have people with her, but when a whole country your at war with doesn't pay any mind to a "female" in office, somethings are going to go bad. I mean in the fact that they may think "hey a weak female is leading, it must be a weak country" and launch an assult, obviously its not a likely situation, but there is crazy people out there, and crazy people+ a situation they think they can take advantage of = pretty damn dangerous.

It's not so much 'me, me, me' but the fact it's not right that in order to be involved in high up politcs, you have to become a men's wife. This pretty much screws over any lesbians, or women who do like to make their own way, or don't find out male politicians attractive (I can totally understand that), or don't just want to play a PA role, if they want to be a politician. Also, it's entirely human to desire credit for what you are doing.
It is me, me, me. If they really cared that much, they'd do what Hillary did. If you look at is "being a mans wife" then you need to think it out, when you get married are you going to take your husbands last name? does that make you "his wife"? OR do you look at it as a partnership? IF you do it doesn't look so bad being able to hold alot of weight when its not your face on a "CHANGE" poster.


Also, take everything with a grain of salt, I've said it isn't a 100% thing all the time, I'm just going by situations, the fact is Men have mostly been the leaders in the history of the world, have women been able to take charge and lead a country, yes, and thats awesome, I'd have no problem seeing it more, but the fact is that more people are comfortable with a male leader than a female leader, and they're has to be a reasoning behind it. Look at the U.S, they had they're first coloured leader before they're first female leader (Edith Woodrow doesnt count in this situation), so there has to be reasoning behind it, and like I said, everyone is going to have a different reason for voting male ahead of female, does it make them sexist? Not at all, it just comes down to peoples opinion, and it looks as if people are more comfortable having a male in office

I'm using the U.S as an example because its the easiest to use (due to the last election, really showed some things.)

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Re: Chivalry is Dead- and Women killed it. - August 31st 2010, 06:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Invert View Post
Um... lol... yes it is. How is that not? That are people's perceptions of women. This is the increase sexist social attitude problems that are the remaining problem. Sex stereotypes are often simply false or overstatements. Until recent years even scientists thought men were by default smarter than women. This has been disproven. People have expectations and opinions of women based on sexist baises. Like with the idea real men don't cry, which I hope you would understand is nonsense. And men can't be good primary caregivers (which considering previous posts you've made, such as complaining women are more frequently given custody, I hope you also don't agree with).

There is a lot of psychological evidence that we assume men know more or are more worthy of trust and respect than women. It has nothing to do with men doing something better.

Opinion polls don't get to the fact there are biases. The very fact that you are going to judge a woman and assume she's bringing 'problems to work' before you've even meet her, and you assume a man won't, is sexist.

The only real differences on a day-to-day basis between men and women are physical ability. There are a handful of differences between men and women psychologically and cognitively, and they aren't that great, even the big differences still have A LOT of over lap between the sexes. Other than that, men and women are basically the same. Men and women are more similar than different. To argue against this is arguing in the face of science.

This is an article published in the American Psychologist:

http://pdfcast.org/pdf/the-gender-si...ies-hypothesis

It's a literature review of an array of meta-studies, and a summary. Basically it takes a lot of info from a lot of articles that have reviewed a range of other articles on sex differences. So there is a lot of data there. And it explains briefly differences, similarities, and things that can effect them. Now, this is something from my degree, it is pretty complex at times on statistical analysis. I'll understand if you can't understand it as you haven't learnt about effect sizes, and statistical analysis yet.

Here's a simplier, less scientific jargon-filled article from the Gaurdian that makes some of the same points. Doesn't quite cover it all, and takes a slightly different focus from the prefered above article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ay?CMP=twt_iph

Nevertheless, at the end of the day, you hold a fair amount of sexism. Even if there are differences between men and women, the diffewrences you hold and reasons for holding them are not based on truth, and it IS a prejudice.
Your problem is that you're presuming the people who voted have never had experience with women bosses, which would suit your argument just fine. That's not people's perceptions of women, that's people EXPERIENCES with women as bosses! Sure there'll be a number of people who haven't had a female boss.
And also, whoever said that I was going to judge women to be worse bosses than men before I've even met them? You're presuming too much, again. So far I've simply linked a few articles where other people have said that they would prefer a male boss, and then taken a brief conclusion from those results. I concluded that as both genders prefer a male boss, they presumably have something that women don't. If it was simply a male test, or simply female test, your argument for bias might stack up, but it's both genders, so it's null. Nowhere have I stated that I don't believe women cannot be as good as men at being a boss, just that the participants of the poll do think so.

There's more than just 'a handful' of differences, anyone can tell that just by a quick scan of the wikipedia article (here). One that I find the most interesting is that men have more genius's, but also have more totally stupid people. I'd guess that's more social though, as boys drop out of school more. There are no MAJOR differences, but there quite a large number of smaller ones, eg. in general, men perform better at spacial awareness tests, women perform better in memory tests.
   
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