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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - September 30th 2010, 04:46 PM

This thread has been labeled as triggering, particularly on the subject of suicide, by the original poster or by a Moderator. The contents of this thread therefore might not be suitable for certain sensitive users. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

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PISCATAWAY, N.J. (AP) -- The death of a Rutgers University freshman stirred outrage and remorse on campus from classmates who wished they could have stopped the teen from jumping off a bridge last week after a recording of him having a sexual encounter with a man was broadcast online.
"Had he been in bed with a woman, this would not have happened," said Lauren Felton, 21, of Warren. "He wouldn't have been outed via an online broadcast and his privacy would have been respected and he might still have his life."
Gay rights groups say Tyler Clementi's suicide makes him a national example of a problem they are increasingly working to combat: young people who kill themselves after being tormented over their sexuality.
A lawyer for Clementi's family confirmed Wednesday that he had jumped off the George Washington Bridge last week. Police recovered a man's body Wednesday afternoon in the Hudson River just north of the bridge, and authorities were trying to determine if it was Clementi's.
The lawyer has not responded to requests for comment on whether Clementi was open about his sexual orientation.
Clementi's roommate, Dhraun Ravi, and fellow Rutgers freshman Molly Wei, both 18, have been charged with invading Clementi's privacy. Middlesex County prosecutors say the pair used a webcam to surreptitiously transmit a live image of Clementi having sex on Sept. 19 and that Ravi tried to webcast a second encounter on Sept. 21, the day before Clementi's suicide.
A lawyer for Ravi, of Plainsboro, did not immediately return a message seeking comment. It was unclear whether Wei, of Princeton, had retained a lawyer.
Collecting or viewing sexual images without consent is a fourth-degree crime. Transmitting them is a third-degree crime with a maximum prison term of five years.
ABC News and The Star-Ledger of Newark reported that Clementi left on his Facebook page on Sept. 22 a note that read: "Jumping off the gw bridge sorry." On Wednesday, his Facebook page was accessible only to friends.
Even if the young violinist from Ridgewood was not well known at his new school, his death stirred outrage.
"The notion that video of Tyler doing what he was doing can be considered a spectacle is just heinous," said Jordan Gochman, 19, of Jackson, who didn't know Clementi. "It's intolerant, it's upsetting, it makes it seem that being gay is something that is wrong and can be considered laughable."
Other students who did know Clement were upset that they didn't do more to help him. "I wish I could have been more of an ally," said Georges Richa, a freshman from New Brunswick.
About 100 people gathered Wednesday night for a vigil on campus. They lay on the ground and chanted slogans like, "We're here, we're queer, we're not going home."
Several gay rights groups linked Clementi's death to the troubling phenomenon of young people committing suicide after being harassed over their sexuality.
On Tuesday, a 13-year-old California boy died nine days after classmates found him hanging from a tree. Authorities say other teens had taunted the boy, Seth Walsh of Tehachapi, for being gay.
Steven Goldstein, chairman of Garden State Equality, said in a statement that his group considers Clementi's death a hate crime.
"We are heartbroken over the tragic loss of a young man who, by all accounts, was brilliant, talented and kind," Goldstein said. "And we are sickened that anyone in our society, such as the students allegedly responsible for making the surreptitious video, might consider destroying others' lives as a sport."
Last week, Dan Savage, a columnist at the Seattle weekly newspaper The Stranger, launched the latest of several efforts to try to stem the problem: the It Gets Better Project, a YouTube channel where gay, lesbian and bisexual adults share the turmoil they experienced when they were younger - and that their lives are better now.
In response to Clementi's death and other incidents, the group Parents, Families & Friends of Lesbians and Gays said it would issue a "call to action" on the subject on Thursday.
Rutgers University President Richard McCormick wrote in a letter to the campus, "If the charges are true, these actions gravely violate the university's standards of decency and humanity." Coincidentally, the university on Wednesday was launching a new two-year Project Civility, designed to get students thinking about how they treat others.
Meanwhile, for some of Clementi's new classmates, the first time they learned much about him was when they got word of his death.
"I guess the only person I haven't talked to is Tyler 'cause he's like really quiet and shy," said Justin Lee, a freshman from Princeton who lives on Clementi's hall.
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  (#2 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - September 30th 2010, 07:39 PM

I know I'm gonna get a lot of shit for this, but I gotta say it.

I think this was over-dramatized.

Now before someone hunts me down and stabs me in the nuts, I will say that the invasion of privacy was incredibly wrong. No one, regardless of race, gender, or sexuality, should be recorded on video without consent. It's wrong, regardless. But should it drive you to suicide? No. If he was proud of his sexuality and thought logically, he wouldn't have committed suicide and lived to see another day. Don't get me wrong...I'd be incredibly upset to! I have self-esteem issues sometimes, I know that I'm not the best at sex...not to mention I don't have the largest package. I could be laughed at as well, and probably would be laughed at if I was recorded having sex. I could also be humiliated, even if I'm not gay. Anyone can. But that doesn't mean that we have to commit suicide from that humiliation. I was bullied for a little while being fat in high school, and even I'm the same body type as I was in high school, I wouldn't kill myself for someone recording me having sex. In fact, I'd try to get the most money out of the suspect's pockets before they get their asses sent to jail.
   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - September 30th 2010, 08:12 PM

Whether or not he was proud of his sexuality to start with, chances are after this video got posted he was extremely ashamed. Who wouldn't be? Something that you're likely trying to keep very private (to avoid being tormented about it) has been broadcast on the internet! There is absolutely no excuse for what his classmates did here.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - September 30th 2010, 08:24 PM

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Whether or not he was proud of his sexuality to start with, chances are after this video got posted he was extremely ashamed. Who wouldn't be? Something that you're likely trying to keep very private (to avoid being tormented about it) has been broadcast on the internet! There is absolutely no excuse for what his classmates did here.
Just like there's no excuse as to why he would commit suicide. I never disagreed that I'd be ashamed. I don't disagree with how he felt. And I said it doesn't matter who you are, anyone can feel ashamed for having their sexual intercourse shit going on on the internet. Still, it doesn't make it an excuse to kill yourself. Now gay groups or whatever you call them are gonna be like "omg...you straight bitches MADE him commit suicide!" What they did was tragic, but no one forced anyone to commit suicide. It was his personal choice.
   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - September 30th 2010, 08:43 PM

I go to this school, and there was a huge uproar (didn't see any vigil though). I do hope those students get screwed on many levels because what they did was utterly despicable.

But I'm going to have to agree with Brandon on this. I don't think the student's actions were bad enough to warrant their blame for his death. I'm down for throwing every legal action at them except for murder.

I don't think they were able to reasonably foresee his suicide by just simply putting up an embarassing sex tape.
   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - September 30th 2010, 10:01 PM

i think what they did is terrible. are they directly responsible for his suicide? no. but they probably did play a big part in what lead to it. he could well have been emotionally unstable anyway and this just pushed him too far. it's really sad either way.

whether they are legally seen as responsible or not they will still have tremendous guilt for the rest of their lives. not that i feel sorry for them because what they did was horrible but i can't imagine living with that guilt.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - September 30th 2010, 11:26 PM

I'm with Brandon too. What those students did was unforgivable and awful and they should be harshly punished, however the student decided to kill himself on his own, and since in my personal opinion nothing warrants suicide, those other students are not responsible for his death.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 1st 2010, 04:20 AM

I've got to agree with my man B-dawg, I don't see any reason or way those students are responsible for his death via suicide. Anyone would be pissed off and humiliated if they were recorded during sex and had that spread around but it's not their fault he killed himself. I'm sure they weren't thinking that he would do so as it was a prank, a rather nasty and illegal prank, but a prank nonetheless. Maybe it wasn't in good humour, I'm not sure but even so, thinking that someone would kill themselves over this isn't something you would expect.

The fact that gay groups are now using this is over-dramatizing it. To me, if someone kills themselves over a tape that humiliates and embarasses them in this kind of way, there must have been other factors at work. Ignoring them and having the gay groups wave this all around is ridiculous.

I agree with charging them on the two charges mentioned and would be fine having others added in so long as they're not about any form of murder.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 1st 2010, 04:25 AM

Some people just can't cope with shame very well. Shame over sexuality could be enough to make some people want to kill themselves. Is it a good solution? Nope, of course not. But could it HAPPEN? yeah, and it looks to me like it did here.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 1st 2010, 08:06 AM

Man, people really have no spine anymore. It seems like there are more suicides everyday, I blame the culture.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 2nd 2010, 06:40 PM

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Man, people really have no spine anymore. It seems like there are more suicides everyday, I blame the culture.
Really? You're really going to say that, here?

Okay. Whatever.

An incredibly tragic incident that shows we still have a very long way to go as moral people.



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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 2nd 2010, 10:19 PM

I don't think it was just about embarrassment. Think about how having a video like that posted online was going to affect his life. It would have made it very hard for him to get a job, for one. Do people just not think things through? I hate how the students who did it are trying to justify it and blame him by saying he's gay and that's why they did it. That's ridiculous. They need to be seriously punished with at least several years of jail time(They need to be punished whether he committed suicide or not).


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 2nd 2010, 10:28 PM

But if the video wasn't broadcast, he wouldn't have committed suicide.

I don't directly blame the classmates for his death, no. But they did play a big part in it. He wouldn't have killed himself if he didn't suffer such embarrassment and shame for what had happened. Obviously it wasn't the best way to deal with it, but it was what he felt like he had to do, like he couldn't go on.

It's still so sad, though.



   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 2nd 2010, 10:38 PM

Jesus, that's terrible :| Obviously he had extreme self-esteem problems to start with but them pushing him over the edge is horrible :/

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Man, people really have no spine anymore. It seems like there are more suicides everyday, I blame the culture.
Really? you do realise this is a teen support site, right?


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 2nd 2010, 11:05 PM

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Jesus, that's terrible :| Obviously he had extreme self-esteem problems to start with but them pushing him over the edge is horrible :/


Really? you do realise this is a teen support site, right?
Allow me to rephrase, the reason for suicides increasing s due to a lack of parental responsability regarding teaching their children that sometimes people make mistakes. Unlike used to, we now teach that everyone who does their best is equal, we need to instill a sense of competition and morality to the youth of tomorow.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 2nd 2010, 11:42 PM

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and since in my personal opinion nothing warrants suicide, those other students are not responsible for his death.
Agree 100%.


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  (#17 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 3rd 2010, 12:05 AM

i think those kids are greatly invovled in his suicide and should be blamed for it.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 3rd 2010, 12:05 AM

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But if the video wasn't broadcast, he wouldn't have committed suicide.

I don't directly blame the classmates for his death, no. But they did play a big part in it. He wouldn't have killed himself if he didn't suffer such embarrassment and shame for what had happened. Obviously it wasn't the best way to deal with it, but it was what he felt like he had to do, like he couldn't go on.

It's still so sad, though.
We can assume that he wouldn't have committed suicide, but we never really know for sure. We can't just say he wouldn't have committed suicide if the video was never broadcasted. That suggests that you can predict the future. Sure, he probably wouldn't have committed suicide if the video never broadcasted, but we don't really know what would happen if it didn't.

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i think those kids are greatly invovled in his suicide and should be blamed for it.
Okay, how's this? Let's pretend you were dating someone who was depressed, and had suicidal thoughts, and they were really clingy to you...but one day you decide to break off the relationship. Now they had no one to cling to, and they decided to commit suicide. Are you at fault? Should you be punished severely? After all, you were the one who led that person into committing suicide, right?

The suspects played a big part in his emotional feelings, but not his suicide. A lot of people can tell you that just because you're experiencing negative emotions, you're obligated to commit suicide. Suicide is irrational thinking, and at that point...you really don't need anything to justify what you're doing. Not only was it not the best to deal with, but it was the WORST way to deal with it.
   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 3rd 2010, 06:44 AM

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Originally Posted by taylalatbh. View Post
But if the video wasn't broadcast, he wouldn't have committed suicide.

I don't directly blame the classmates for his death, no. But they did play a big part in it. He wouldn't have killed himself if he didn't suffer such embarrassment and shame for what had happened. Obviously it wasn't the best way to deal with it, but it was what he felt like he had to do, like he couldn't go on.

It's still so sad, though.
It's amazing that you can predict exactly how people will be in certain situations and what the future holds. However, the rest of us cannot. The fact he did kill himself over the video being broadcast indicates he was already in a lot of distress over his sexual orientation and people finding out. This may have also made him quite depressed and ashamed of himself. So even if the video wasn't broadcast, given these 2 big factors, how do you know he wouldn't have killed himself?

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i think those kids are greatly invovled in his suicide and should be blamed for it.
So if I were to tell someone that I hated their guts and they killed themselves, I should be held responsible for their actions? That's just like saying when I make you angry for something, at a later time taylalatbh. annoys you and you hit her, I should be held responsible, not you (hypothetical situation).

That's absurd. The kids should be held responsible for making the guy feel embarassed and humiliated because they recorded and broadcast the video. However, they shouldn't be held responsible for his suicide. Suppose this same story happened, only instead of committing suicide, he killed one of the students who broadcast the video. Suppose he then committed suicide. Should the surviving student be held responsible for the murder and suicide, one, or neither?


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 3rd 2010, 03:29 PM

Okay, I'm not saying that I can predict the future. But there is a possibility that he wouldn't have killed himself if it weren't for this. I think the broadcast played a very large part in his actions, and more than likely caused it.



   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 3rd 2010, 03:59 PM

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Okay, I'm not saying that I can predict the future. But there is a possibility that he wouldn't have killed himself if it weren't for this. I think the broadcast played a very large part in his actions, and more than likely caused it.
The thing is it doesn't matter if, for the student, the broadcast was a reason to commit suicide. Suicide is a choice, he chose to use that as a reason, but that's not those students' fault. What they did was horrible but what he decided to do after was not their responsibility. He decided how to react to it. If someone is diagnosed with cancer and they decide to commit suicide rather than have treatment, or just live our the rest of their lives, do we blame the doctor for their suicide?


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 3rd 2010, 04:12 PM

I'm sure that the people who video taped it and broadcasted it feel badly enough as it is.

They may have affected his decision, but HE made the decision.

My uncle committed suicide (almost) two years ago after his ex-wife and him were on the phone yelling at each other. (There were many things going on). But is it her fault that he committed suicide? Well maybe the things she said affected him enough to do it, but in the end HE made the decision. He could've reacted in different ways. As much as I dislike her, do I think she should be the one pointed out? No.

Whenever someone commits suicide, they have things that triggered them to do it. They can control those triggers and deal with them in many ways, but if they do deal with them by ending their life, then that is THEIR decision.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 3rd 2010, 08:47 PM

Whether the decision to commit suicide was the direct choice of the student or something he felt compelled to do in the circumstances does not in either event excuse those who filmed him and his partner from their role as contributors to his suicide. I say that not necessarily as a legal principle so much as a moral one - while we do not know the full story behind his sexuality or his feelings about it, the filming of his actions and publication thereof had a direct causal link to his suicide. But for the filming and publication (and I link the two deliberately) he would not have committed suicide in this instance. It is not a viable position to claim that his suicide nullified their responsibility as there is a direct causal chain with no justification for breaking it. That to my mind makes them morally responsible in a contributory role. A good illustration of this is J.B. Priestley's "An Inspector Calls" which I would recommend for subjects such as these.

On the subject of what would have happened had he killed one of the students and then committed suicide, the act of murder breaks the causal chain and so the survivor would not be responsible therein. However, he would be responsible insofar as contributing to the course of events via provocation as the causal chain extends to this point. On the doctor example, the difference is that the doctor has not committed a morally wrongful act in providing a diagnosis, and thereby no causal chain exists in terms of responsibility.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 4th 2010, 02:22 PM

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Originally Posted by hopefaithlove View Post
I'm sure that the people who video taped it and broadcasted it feel badly enough as it is.
I doubt it. A lot of people won't feel bad about this. Especially because, you know, he's gay and therefore not human. I still think they need to be punished for videotaping him and posting it online.(Not for the suicide, though). I still think they should get a couple years in prison.


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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 4th 2010, 04:04 PM

There is a causal link between the video and his suicide. I feel like you can't argue against that. The decision to commit suicide was ultimately his, but many factors led up to it which made him do it. So in a way, these students are morally responsible for this person's death. I'm not saying it's right that he committed suicide, but to say that their actions didn't cause it is just wrong. You don't have to agree with his suicide, but agree with what led him to do it.

To add another note: I personally don't think these students uploaded the video as a cause of hate or anything like that. I think they were just stupid 18 year olds who thought they were doing something funny to gain some social points. It's their first year of college and for most kids this is their first outside experience with these kinds of things. Their attitude was sort of like "Wow! My roommate is weird! Watch this!" It still doesn't excuse their actions, but I do think this was the basic mindset.
   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 4th 2010, 08:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugez
There is a causal link between the video and his suicide. I feel like you can't argue against that.
I don't think anyone was arguing that there isn't a link with the video and his suicide...at least I'm not anyway. The video was potentially a factor. Do we know for sure that he wouldn't have committed suicide if the video never existed? Not necessarily. We can assume that he wouldn't. I understand that it was difficult -- the video exposed his sexuality and now he couldn't hide himself from anyone. But why is it that he committed suicide but not his partner? Wouldn't the other guy feel kind of humiliated too? So what does that tell us? That, possibly, the video links more to his personal problems rather than the suicide. I don't think it was the video, itself, that "caused" the problem, it was his personal problems the caused the problem. If you see a car accident and a cop asks you how the car accident happened, you wouldn't say "well, the Toyota Camry hit the Ferrari 360." At that point, it looks like it's the Toyota Camry's fault? But what if you described what happened even BEFORE the accident? "Well, the Ferrari 360 ran a red light and the Camry didn't have enough time to maneuver. Now it's the Ferrari 360's fault. The story completely turned when you provided the big picture. Sure, the video obviously upset the guy, humiliated and what not, just like any other human being would react if recorded having sex without consent. But is it the cause? No. Otherwise his partner probably would've jumped off the bridge with him. Yes, the video was the final impact to his death, but running the red light, having personal problems and not dealing with his big secret that was making him vulnerable enough to end his life, is what really caused his suicide in the first place.

Are the bullies responsible for his death? Absolutely not. You're responsible for your own life. Let's say that you have a big SUV that isn't that great at braking power. You hear an annoying song on the radio, so you change the radio station...only to look back up right when you run over Santa Claus. Are you going to be charged with murder? Probably not because you'll probably be charged with vehicular manslaughter. Vehicular manslaughter isn't the same as murder because even though Santa Claus shouldn't walk in front of a big SUV, Santa Claus didn't have the choice to die. Murder is intent to kill, and you didn't give that person a choice to die. To say that the students are "responsible" for the guy's suicide is wrong because he chose to die. It's like having a family member sue the hospital after pulling the plug on the grandfather when it was his choice. It wouldn't make sense. Yes, it was their responsibility to keep you alive, and it was their responsibility to make sure you were properly hooked up, but it was your choice to have them pull the plug. Just like the students put him in a vulnerable situation, but it was his choice to pull the plug.
   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 4th 2010, 08:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toast
I doubt it. A lot of people won't feel bad about this. Especially because, you know, he's gay and therefore not human. I still think they need to be punished for videotaping him and posting it online.(Not for the suicide, though). I still think they should get a couple years in prison.
Now that's kind of a biased opinion, don't you think? People don't really care about news in general unless it relates to them. It wouldn't have made a difference to me if they were the straightest couple. In fact, I'd care less about a straight couple being illegally recorded while having sex than a gay couple while having sex. Just because I don't do anything doesn't mean that I don't care...especially because they're gay. I don't think anyone has said that homosexuals are not human beings. If someone has, they're retarded and need to be slapped with a wet fish, and someone who would think that people think that homosexuals are not humans just because their values and beliefs are not your own isn't exactly smart either.
   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 5th 2010, 09:25 AM

Is this a case of 'the straw that broke the camel's back'? Or is this the only thing that caused him to do it?
Though, I think he could of at least tried to take it under his stride... In the end though, he is the only one to blame for his death.
   
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 5th 2010, 10:26 AM

Commiting suicide is a very selfish act unless in extremely special circumstances. You leave so many people behind, wondering what they could have done to help.
However, those two students and there actions played a big part in his decision to commit suicide. Without being so publicly outed he may have come to terms with his homosexuality. The video was humiliating for him and those two students had no right whatsoever to do what they did. They do deserve prison. What they have done should, if they have any deceny, stick with them for the rest of their lives. There actions played a massive part in someone elses death.
I agree however that there were probably many factors leading up to his death though. Yet the humilaition of the video and the fact that he had to face friends and family after being outed in such a way must a have been a large factor in his decision to take his own life.
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Re: Secret Sex Video Linked to NJ Student's Suicide - October 5th 2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefaithlove View Post
I'm sure that the people who video taped it and broadcasted it feel badly enough as it is.

They may have affected his decision, but HE made the decision.

My uncle committed suicide (almost) two years ago after his ex-wife and him were on the phone yelling at each other. (There were many things going on). But is it her fault that he committed suicide? Well maybe the things she said affected him enough to do it, but in the end HE made the decision. He could've reacted in different ways. As much as I dislike her, do I think she should be the one pointed out? No.

Whenever someone commits suicide, they have things that triggered them to do it. They can control those triggers and deal with them in many ways, but if they do deal with them by ending their life, then that is THEIR decision.
Just wanted to point out that i agree one hundred percent here.




   
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