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  (#41 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 03:17 AM

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Originally Posted by Boobies View Post

Because obviously everyone has a 40% chance of being stabbed in the UK, could you not even have come up with a more likely statistic than 40%...

Also, self defence isn't illegal, you're allowed to defend yourself using reasonable force, if you're being raped and there is a brick next to you then you're allowed to whack the person around the head with said brick. As long as you don't go over board or carry items around with you and their sole purpose is to cause harm to somebody else (and yes, if the item is supposed to be used in self-defence it's intended to cause harm, though I'm sure there may be some non-violent exceptions to this)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...each-week.html
Quote:
...It is equivalent to about 400 offences per week.The highest rate is in London, where every resident has a one-in-1,100 chance of falling victim over the course of a year. Londoners stand more chance of being stabbed or robbed at knifepoint than being killed or seriously injured in a road accident.
Not the 40%, but the precedent of homeowners not being able to legally defend themselves without extreme fear of prosecution and civil suit has only contributed to the massive increases in crime in the UK. This has been a pretty big issue there lately, I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

People like to point out the UK as gun control "done right", but it's exactly not successful if your lack of firearms noticeably raises your violent crime rates. If you want to compare countries, look at Switzerland, which has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, relatively lax gun laws (by Euro standards), and yet they have insanely low crime rates.

I also find it pretty funny that firearm debates seem to pop up around the rare, white suburban school shootings. Like Guile said, kids get shot every day, but it happens one time in an instance where upper-middle class America can relate, there's public outrage.
   
  (#42 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 04:11 AM

I think an interesting thing to point out is that not too long ago we had a thread on here about a "middle schooler" (I put the quotes there because 8th grade or not he was 15) who was shot and killed by police because he refused to drop a gun, that I believe was an BB gun or something of the like. And there were many people on that thread all upset because the officers you know did their job. I doubt they'd be saying the same thing if someone with such authority and a gun saw this kid before he entered that cafeteria and ended up having to shoot him. That at least would have resulted in 2 less dead kids.

I would be all for making guns illegal, but that would render me a hypocrite because of my view points on pro-lifers and anti-gay people (the whole forcing their opinion on others thing) So as much as I detest guns that's my opinion and is no basis for a law. I will say I wouldn't mind better security on school campuses, and maybe drills of some sort. I'll never forget a day my senior year where one of the administrators came on over the intercom and said we were on lock down, he sounded out of breath and we were all certain there was a shooter on campus. Luckily the crazy stupid kids with guns were just in the neighborhood around campus. Anyway I think the better protocols the schools have for such situations the better chance we have at avoiding these tragedies.


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  (#43 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 04:58 AM

Not to break up your whole debate here, but wanted to add in... Today they buried Danny, and Westboro Church was supposed to be in our area protesting at the funeral, saying the kid deserves to die because of gays. You can read it here: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/loc...ral-protesters

The church did not show up, but some 2,000 students blocked off the church by being human barricades. very emotional and touching.
   
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  (#44 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 05:05 AM

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Originally Posted by thebigmole View Post
I think an interesting thing to point out is that not too long ago we had a thread on here about a "middle schooler" (I put the quotes there because 8th grade or not he was 15) who was shot and killed by police because he refused to drop a gun, that I believe was an BB gun or something of the like. And there were many people on that thread all upset because the officers you know did their job. I doubt they'd be saying the same thing if someone with such authority and a gun saw this kid before he entered that cafeteria and ended up having to shoot him. That at least would have resulted in 2 less dead kids.

I would be all for making guns illegal, but that would render me a hypocrite because of my view points on pro-lifers and anti-gay people (the whole forcing their opinion on others thing) So as much as I detest guns that's my opinion and is no basis for a law.
Thank you. See? This is how you share an opinion. By being at least somewhat open-minded to the possibility that others have different ideas. This is the kind of opinion-sharing that makes me stop and think that maybe someone might have a point, not someone trying to shove their beliefs down my throat.


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  (#45 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 06:41 AM

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  (#46 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 08:21 AM

Actually its realated to the thread a gun was used in the shooting therefore its related to the thread



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 09:55 AM

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Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
Emotions, a good argument, does not make.

Also, what would you say is worse. A statistically rare event like a school shooting, or being 21 yourself, having a 40% chance of being stabbed to death in the UK.

Or better yet, people being arrested and put in jail for self defense in the UK.

Hmmmmmmmm.
Actually if you have used self defence in the right way and in a situation where you need to defend yourself you won't actually go to jail, also here you need a license to use self defence such as karate ect (which I have) when I joined my karate club I was given a book (a license). So it's legal here there's laws for it, like everything in the UK.
While america has laws it clearly does not have enough laws on guns as you have had school shootings - columbine, ohio. and countless more.
I don't give a monkeys backside if they are used for hunting or not, the issue here is a gun used to kill people and in a place that is supposed to be a safe place. Are you really telling me school is still safe even though the recent school shooting ? Surely that's enough for you government to turn round and say 'Lets make guns illegal' . School should be a place that is safe - safe from guns, safe from knives, safe from people being shot, stabbed, ect.

I'll admit in the UK children have worn stab proof vests to school in fear of being stabbed. But that's been sorted as far as I know.

How many more school shootings will it take ? How many more children to die from guns will it take ? It shouldn't take any more deaths and school shootings.

Guns should be made illegal now.

Let me put it this way in a hypothetical situation . If you friend was shot and killed in a school shooting. Would you say 'oh that's fine my friends dead, I still want guns to be legal ' ? Surely if your friend is shot or killed in a school shooting you would want guns to be made illegal ? Yes ? No ? .



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  (#48 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 12:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Eldora View Post
... and all these reasons for not having guns are a load of bullshit. And yeah, I said it, it's bullshit.

The thing that gets me the most?

You're not even residents of the country that passed the laws allowing guns in the first place. Therefore, you have no say in what happens in our country.


So back off, and keep your opinions to yourselves. Yes, this is a place where we may freely share our opinions. But at least have the common courtesy not to flood this thread with an unrelated argument, and create a new one. That way people who come here actually wanting to talk about what was posted don't see something that to them is highly offensive and get frustrated and angry.
  1. You need to realize that your country is no better than ours for passing a no-guns law;
  2. You need to realize that we have been raised differently from you, and have a more open mind to our culture;
  3. You need to listen to our counter-arguments, rather than repeating the same thing over and over. At least come up with some better ideas to argue the negative; you are beginning to sound like broken records.
And I'm sorry, but I just get a little defensive when my rights are threatened and my reasons for having those rights are called crap by a bunch of nincompoops who keep repeating themselves.
First of all, I'm glad you think public safety is 'bullshit', you're just helping the image that the USA has to every other country.

I never stated I have a say in what happens in your country, but as you said 'this is a place where we may freely share our opinions'

Aren't you kinda 'flooding this thread with an unrelated argument'? Hypocrisy much? Even though it's no unrelated to the topic of the thread...

1. I never stated that our country was better than yours.
2. You've been raised differently to us? Really? You have no history (200 years is nothing) and in the last two hundred years we only started controlling guns after to second world war. So basically, no, you haven't been raised differently to us. And your culture has a more open mind? Really? Who are you trying to kid...
3. I did listen to your counter-arguments and they're a load of crap, I didn't address them because there is a better place for it, and this thread isn't it.

And in the style if your last paragraph:
Sorry, I just get offended when a bunch of uneducated, trigger-happy Americans try to justify things like school shootings because they have a right to own guns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliber View Post
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...each-week.html
Not the 40%, but the precedent of homeowners not being able to legally defend themselves without extreme fear of prosecution and civil suit has only contributed to the massive increases in crime in the UK. This has been a pretty big issue there lately, I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

People like to point out the UK as gun control "done right", but it's exactly not successful if your lack of firearms noticeably raises your violent crime rates. If you want to compare countries, look at Switzerland, which has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, relatively lax gun laws (by Euro standards), and yet they have insanely low crime rates.

I also find it pretty funny that firearm debates seem to pop up around the rare, white suburban school shootings. Like Guile said, kids get shot every day, but it happens one time in an instance where upper-middle class America can relate, there's public outrage.
My point was that the 0.1% (in the roughest part of the country) is just a bit different to the 40% country wide statistic that was mentioned before.
And we ARE allowed to defend ourselves, shooting someone isn't the only way to defend yourself.

I didn't say that the UK had the best gun control laws, but please provide evidence to support 'your lack of firearms noticeably raises your violent crime rates', bearing in mind crime involving guns is still 'violent crime'

And on this website there would be a gun control debate on anything that mentions someone being shot.
   
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  (#49 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 12:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Boobies View Post

First of all, I'm glad you think public safety is 'bullshit', you're just helping the image that the USA has to every other country.

I never stated I have a say in what happens in your country, but as you said 'this is a place where we may freely share our opinions'

Aren't you kinda 'flooding this thread with an unrelated argument'? Hypocrisy much? Even though it's no unrelated to the topic of the thread...

1. I never stated that our country was better than yours.
2. You've been raised differently to us? Really? You have no history (200 years is nothing) and in the last two hundred years we only started controlling guns after to second world war. So basically, no, you haven't been raised differently to us. And your culture has a more open mind? Really? Who are you trying to kid...
3. I did listen to your counter-arguments and they're a load of crap, I didn't address them because there is a better place for it, and this thread isn't it.

And in the style if your last paragraph:
Sorry, I just get offended when a bunch of uneducated, trigger-happy Americans try to justify things like school shootings because they have a right to own guns.




My point was that the 0.1% (in the roughest part of the country) is just a bit different to the 40% country wide statistic that was mentioned before.
And we ARE allowed to defend ourselves, shooting someone isn't the only way to defend yourself.

I didn't say that the UK had the best gun control laws, but please provide evidence to support 'your lack of firearms noticeably raises your violent crime rates', bearing in mind crime involving guns is still 'violent crime'

And on this website there would be a gun control debate on anything that mentions someone being shot.

Alright, I admit my first point was base assumption.


However, yes, I have been raised differently. Odds are, you've never canned deer meat after a successful hunt in order to feed your family for the rest of the year because there's nothing else, you've never went squirrel hunting on a beautiful foggy morning with your father and felt the pride that comes with bringing home dinner for your family, you've never shot and butchered a cow so you could eat. Odds are also that you've decided that it's wrong because you've never seen where I live, and you don't know how much having guns and being able to hunt in the appropriate seasons has helped my family survive.

I also think that your ideas of what is bullshit and my ideas of what is bullshit are completely and utterly different. They're polar opposites. I don't think that getting rid of guns would lessen the mortality rate due to school shootings, anyway. We don't even have that many. The media simply latches onto it like crazy and goes haywire and makes a big deal out of it.

I have nothing to support the "lack of firearms noticeably raises violent crime rates" argument. But I can say that your own country's firearm laws haven't gotten rid of or even lessened the number of violent crimes in your country, they've simply switched the means of the way those violent crimes come about.

And I can also counter-argue that my family's need for the guns in order to hunt and provide food for our family far outweighs the danger of getting shot in school. I can counter-argue that I have never seen violence caused by a gun, and that all of my life, I have seen violence prevented by guns.

School shootings actually happen so rarely and far away from here that none of us are affected by them, despite everyone in the county owning at least one firearm, probably more.

Violent crimes happen in any large city, whether they're caused by guns or by knives, as you can probably affirm by the numerous instances of knife crimes that are showcased on your television every time the news comes on.


There is no way people are ever going to take my guns, because I know they've helped to feed my family and defend us. They'd walk over my dead body before they took my right to own a gun, because I don't know about you, but I don't wanna watch my family starved or filleted by carving knives.


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  (#50 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobies View Post

I didn't say that the UK had the best gun control laws, but please provide evidence to support 'your lack of firearms noticeably raises your violent crime rates', bearing in mind crime involving guns is still 'violent crime'
To be honest, Gun Control and crime control have pretty much little to no correlation of any sort. Firearm ownership has been on the rise here, and the over all crime rate, including gun crime, has been on the decline.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Also, just for laughs, check this out. A town with mandatory firearm ownership for adults.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/...19257620070418

Kennesaw, Georgia- Population Approx. 30,000

In 1982, they enacted an ordinance that required every household to own and maintain a firearm, with the proper ammunition for said firearm.

Their crime rate since 1982 is less than half of the US average.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
Let me put it this way in a hypothetical situation . If you friend was shot and killed in a school shooting. Would you say 'oh that's fine my friends dead, I still want guns to be legal ' ? Surely if your friend is shot or killed in a school shooting you would want guns to be made illegal ? Yes ? No ? .
Here what my first thoughts would be:
1. Did they catch the son of a bitch?
2. Why weren't there armed police on campus to begin with?
3. We should have let a few teachers or school administrators arm themselves to protect against this sort of thing.
4. Why wasn't the student given help when he obviously needed it?
5. Why did the staff allow the bullying to continue?

Here's what my first thoughts would never be:
1 The gun made him do it.
2. Guns caused this.
3. We should revoke everyone's natural rights because a few people are emotionally compromised and fearful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
Guns should be made illegal now.
Never going to happen. There's been a massive shift in this country as far as guns go, and education is the new tool we've been using against this shit. I.E- teaching people to respect firearms, and teaching people to help prevent and stop bullying, which I guarantee you, will do thousands of times more what banning guns could ever do.


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  (#51 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 05:30 PM

If it is true that gun crime has been on the DECLINE you nations/areas that have looser gun laws or even REQUIRED ownership then how can you all say that guns are bad and are ONLY used to kill people. How about this do not eat ANY meat do not kill animals who try to kill you.




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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 06:25 PM

Forget the animals. We are talking about guns and children in schools, to stop scchool shootings and shootings in general have a law that makes guns illegal.

And if enough people want guns to be made illegal the government will sucum to the peer pressure of it's countries citizens.

You can't say ' guns won't ever be illegal' Because you never know , guns may become illegal. They may not. But making them illegal would sure as hell reduce gun crime.



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  (#53 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 06:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
Forget the animals. We are talking about guns and children in schools, to stop scchool shootings and shootings in general have a law that makes guns illegal.

And if enough people want guns to be made illegal the government will sucum to the peer pressure of it's countries citizens.

You can't say ' guns won't ever be illegal' Because you never know , guns may become illegal. They may not. But making them illegal would sure as hell reduce gun crime.
If that is the case then PLEASE explain to me WHY it is that a place (Switzerland) has a law REQUIRING people to have guns in their HOME and yet have one of the lowest gun crime rates, yet your country has HIGH knife crime. Same deal applies to that city in Georgia. Explain why that is.




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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 06:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
Forget the animals. We are talking about guns and children in schools, to stop scchool shootings and shootings in general have a law that makes guns illegal.

And if enough people want guns to be made illegal the government will sucum to the peer pressure of it's countries citizens.

You can't say ' guns won't ever be illegal' Because you never know , guns may become illegal. They may not. But making them illegal would sure as hell reduce gun crime.
In order to make guns illegal, we would have to ratify our constitution and with the way congress deals with things, that could take ages.
Also, we can't just expect them to listen to the people. The supreme court would have to make the final decision and if there vote is not in favor of making guns illegal everything will stay the same. They do not always listen to the majority, they look at the constitution and they look at the differences in times and what changes have occured to help in making there decisions.
This reminds me of prohibition, when drinking was made illegal (the 18th amendment) and then how so many people hated it that the 21st amendment was passed to change the decision that was made by the 18th. The same thing could happen with gun control laws and that would just be a waste of time that congress doesn't have or need to utilize.


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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 06:51 PM

So america is happy for more deaths to happen due to guns being in posession of people ?



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 07:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
So america is happy for more deaths to happen due to guns being in posession of people ?
You did not answer me I said that the people had LOWER gun crime rates. It is not fair but people WILL kill people with guns or whatever else children I do not care who they are people are that way, BUT many places with LOOSER gun laws have LESS gun crime and crime in general, so thus it seems that guns do not do it. It is what people CHOOSE to do with them. Just like I mentioned earlier with lariats. You play tug-of-war with them you gather cattle with them, but you also may hang people with them or choke them. Let me asks you this if for some reason people decided to start using a noose each time they killed someone would you say let's ban ropes NO. Guns work the same way people kill people with them yes but they also collect them for fun take them to shooting ranges and hunt with them. It is NOT fair that people had to die, but that is just how it is taking it from EVERYONE is NOT the answer. I am telling you that people will either get a hold of them if they are illegal( if they wanted something with it like kill people or they will use other methods) I would rather have gun crime than knife crime. (If I HAD to choose) Guns can be easier to find than knives. You can conceal them, but I would say that that is much harder than concealing a pocket knife or other sharp item. Because people even hide that kind of stuff in gross plays like up their butt. It is MUCH harder to hide a gun in those same places.




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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 07:46 PM

I can't tell you why switzerland doesn't have a high gun crime rating because I don't know. the point is america does - and school shootings will keep happening till something is done. And hiding a knife is easy, you can wear long socks and boots and conceal one in your shoe, you can hide a small flick knife in a pocket, you can hide a knife anywhere, people hide knives up their sleeves, in thier sock, up thier trouser leg, ect. people could easily conceal and hide a gun in the same way.



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 09:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
I can't tell you why switzerland doesn't have a high gun crime rating because I don't know. the point is america does - and school shootings will keep happening till something is done. And hiding a knife is easy, you can wear long socks and boots and conceal one in your shoe, you can hide a small flick knife in a pocket, you can hide a knife anywhere, people hide knives up their sleeves, in thier sock, up thier trouser leg, ect. people could easily conceal and hide a gun in the same way.
DUH! Listen, it can't be simpler: Switzerland has guns, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world; your country doesn't, and still has a high crime rate. Think on that for a second.


Like I said, school shootings don't actually happen that often. When they do, the media publicizes them like crazy. They feed on it like sharks. But there's never been a school shooting in my state, ever, and every household has guns.

The only thing that can be done to stop school shootings is, as aforementioned by several members, more counselling for those disturbed and more school shooting drills and harsher punishments for those who cause others the mental devastation that is required to make something like this happen.

Which only happens rarely.

And people can easily hide knives as well as they can guns, and they could stab just as many people to death as this person killed with a gun. Why hasn't your country abolished the use of knives, too? Sure, you say they're used for cooking, and thus are necessary. I say our guns are used to feed my family, and thus are necessary.

Stop and think for a moment, would you?


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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 4th 2012, 10:57 PM

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Originally Posted by Boobies View Post
My point was that the 0.1% (in the roughest part of the country) is just a bit different to the 40% country wide statistic that was mentioned before.
And we ARE allowed to defend ourselves, shooting someone isn't the only way to defend yourself.

I didn't say that the UK had the best gun control laws, but please provide evidence to support 'your lack of firearms noticeably raises your violent crime rates', bearing in mind crime involving guns is still 'violent crime'
But how do you defend yourself against a criminal with a gun? How does a 70 year old woman defend herself against any attacker? I'm not American so I can't use that 2nd Amendment 'cop out' argument, but when I look at American cities like DC or Detroit or LA or NYC, they have the highest form of gun control available - you are NOT allowed to own a gun no matter what. Except these cities have the highest gun crime in the country. So I only see their gun control laws affecting law abiding citizens in a negative way. It doesn't even affect criminals in the slightest. Someone with intent will always find a way. Hows Mexico as another example?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
Let me put it this way in a hypothetical situation . If you friend was shot and killed in a school shooting. Would you say 'oh that's fine my friends dead, I still want guns to be legal ' ? Surely if your friend is shot or killed in a school shooting you would want guns to be made illegal ? Yes ? No ? .
So you think victims of gun crime are always for gun control?

Oh yeah and about your earlier point, knife control laws are the next wave starting to spread across the UK...
   
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 12:03 AM

Need I me tion that no legally owned automatic weapon ha ever been used in a crime?


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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 05:10 AM

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Forget the animals. We are talking about guns and children in schools, to stop scchool shootings and shootings in general have a law that makes guns illegal.
While I understand your emotion-based media-sensationalized argument centers on shootings within or outside of schools, you're stumbling over your own feet. If you want gun possession to be made illegal for citizens, it begs a variety of questions. For example, would off-duty police officers be allowed to carry a gun with them or securely store one in their house? These sorts of questions are swept under the rug when you give blanket statements of, "make guns illegal".

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Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
But making them illegal would sure as hell reduce gun crime.
This argument assumes gun crimes were committed by the legal owners of registered guns and not by unregistered guns. Furthermore, it assumes individuals who that commit such crimes would suddenly obey laws banning gun possession and usage by citizens. The problem is if gun crimes are committed by illegally owned guns, then what benefit will the laws have, other than complicating the already convoluted laws? Other countries won't succum to "peer-pressure" because the results indicate the laws have minimal effect, so why waste time and effort invoking something that doesn't work as intended? There are cross-national differences, such as Switzerland as Emily mentioned, however, there are other differing laws and policies, differing cultures and attitudes, a whole set of different factors. So when the US examines Switzerland's gun control policies, they'd examine other relevant differences between the countries to get a full picture, yet you suggest that wouldn't happen.

An additional, rather amusing problem with your argument is it doesn't actually address school shootings. For the majority of shootings, the individual was suffering from mental anguish and often had a previously diagnosed psychiatric disorder. Given this commonality, it would make sense to invoke laws and school policies for better identifying at-risk students and responding to more threats. This strategy seeks to prevent the crime from occurring. I don't believe harsher punishment will be effective for all bullies, rather take the time to examine the child's social life, their family structure, academic difficulties and so forth because that is where the issue lies. Your strategy of making more laws until everything gets resolved is reactionary and going law-crazy can impede actions that currently are legal.


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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 08:58 AM

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Originally Posted by Eldora View Post
DUH! Listen, it can't be simpler: Switzerland has guns, and one of the lowest crime rates in the world; your country doesn't, and still has a high crime rate. Think on that for a second.


Like I said, school shootings don't actually happen that often. When they do, the media publicizes them like crazy. They feed on it like sharks. But there's never been a school shooting in my state, ever, and every household has guns.

The only thing that can be done to stop school shootings is, as aforementioned by several members, more counselling for those disturbed and more school shooting drills and harsher punishments for those who cause others the mental devastation that is required to make something like this happen.

Which only happens rarely.

And people can easily hide knives as well as they can guns, and they could stab just as many people to death as this person killed with a gun. Why hasn't your country abolished the use of knives, too? Sure, you say they're used for cooking, and thus are necessary. I say our guns are used to feed my family, and thus are necessary.

Stop and think for a moment, would you?
Maybe because knives are an everyday item that people use to prepare food, and eat with ? You can't make a law on no selling knives, hell yes we have laws on knives ' no one under the age of 18 can buy knives' 'carrying a knife is illegal ' 'ect. Shops can stop selling guns or if they won't stop selling guns there should be system stopping some people to buy guns such as before you buy a gun you should take a test with questions on it and depending on the answers to the questions that test will decide if you are a fit person to buy guns, then the only people who would have guns are the right people . Or if that fails the government should make guns illegal, hell you can buy meat in the shop but I guess it's cheaper for you to go buy a gun which probably costs more than going to the local shop and buying a pack of lamb shanks ? If not wow how much do your lamb shanks cost ? You have more chance of surviving a knife attack than surviving getting shot.



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 09:04 AM

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Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
While I understand your emotion-based media-sensationalized argument centers on shootings within or outside of schools, you're stumbling over your own feet. If you want gun possession to be made illegal for citizens, it begs a variety of questions. For example, would off-duty police officers be allowed to carry a gun with them or securely store one in their house? These sorts of questions are swept under the rug when you give blanket statements of, "make guns illegal".
In the UK guns are illegal and I've said this time and time again (so I just before tearing up what I say in little quotes that you read all my previous posts properly!) - The only people here who own guns (legally) are the police officers in the armed police area, the soldiers outside Buckingham palace, and the police who work outside 10 downing street. And the police at airports. We have laws, laws are there for a purpose to protect the country from scum like the person who took a gun to school and shot people and killed people.

Here in the UK we probably do have people who own guns illegally, I'm not saying we don't because we probably do. I just don't know of them. So with that in mind - you could make guns illegal and have shops not sell them. Guns are not cool they are violent and dangerous weapons. They kill. Why would anyone want to own something that kills ? It makes no sense to me.



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 09:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Caliber View Post

So you think victims of gun crime are always for gun control?

Oh yeah and about your earlier point, knife control laws are the next wave starting to spread across the UK...
Well that woman in the video is just very forgiving and sees things from a different perspective, but it still makes my point valid. If guns were illegal people would not need to carry them to defend themselves with as there would not be as many guns - therefore you wouldn't need one to defend yourself with would you ? or no wait ? Would you just because you live in fear that one day someone may just come along with a gun Pop Boom Bang . ?

That would be like me saying ' hey I live in a rough town where people get stabbed everyweek, I know I'll carry a knife just on the off chance that I'll get stabbed' ?

This is the reason I took up karate and knife defence training so that if I ever am in situation where someone is trying to stab me with a knife I can defend myself, hell I would probably still get stabbed but I would most likely come off a-lot better than someone who does not know how to defend themselves against someone with a knife.

There is your answer. Yes we are having more laws put in about knives I'm glad about that, knife crime in the UK is high and does need lowering. Tougher laws might well be the way to lower knife crime. And then maybe when knife crime is lowered all you Americans who saying are saying making guns illegal won't help, might actually start saying 'hmm the UK had a big knife crime problem, tougher laws were bought in, now there's not such a big problem with knives, maybe making guns illegal here might help our school shooting problem'



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 02:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
Maybe because knives are an everyday item that people use to prepare food, and eat with ? You can't make a law on no selling knives, hell yes we have laws on knives ' no one under the age of 18 can buy knives' 'carrying a knife is illegal ' 'ect. Shops can stop selling guns or if they won't stop selling guns there should be system stopping some people to buy guns such as before you buy a gun you should take a test with questions on it and depending on the answers to the questions that test will decide if you are a fit person to buy guns, then the only people who would have guns are the right people . Or if that fails the government should make guns illegal, hell you can buy meat in the shop but I guess it's cheaper for you to go buy a gun which probably costs more than going to the local shop and buying a pack of lamb shanks ? If not wow how much do your lamb shanks cost ? You have more chance of surviving a knife attack than surviving getting shot.

The point I was trying to make is that our guns are as necessary to us as your knives.

And, just for your information, guns cost more at the beginning, but you only have to buy them once, as well as the tags for the season in question. You can get more pounds of meat out of one bear or deer for the price of a tag than you can buy meat in the store for that same amount of money.

Besides, sometimes it's just fun to shoot things. And nothing gives you the feeling of control over your life so much as bringing home dinner for your family fresh from the woods. Not to mention, the stories. My life would be incomplete without those special moments, sitting around the fire and talking about the hunts we've went on throughout our lives, listening to my grandpa tell about the time he brought home a huge eleven point with a .22. Yesterday my dad and I walked up on the hill, and we looked across one and my dad said: "Reckon you could shoot a deer that far?" I laughed and said: "Sure I could."

Hunting is fun. Hunting is necessary. Hunting requires guns. Those guns aren't going anywhere.


And, by the way, you didn't answer The Man and the XX Master. I'd really, really like to hear your response to that.


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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 03:12 PM

You know what - guns don't have to be a way of living, hunting will eventually make animals extinct.

How the hell can killing be fun ? Are you saying that the guy who took a gun to school and shot people did it for fun ?

And I did answer them , maybe not everything because I do not have to answer everything.

The point I'm making and the point I've been making all along is a gun was used in a school shooting - they have been in used in school shootings in the past too, but guess what - school shootings still happen, http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

I believe most of those are in america are they not ?
Yet you still all insist school shootings are rare that time line on that link says different ^^

Still want to continue with guns are necessary ?



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 03:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
How the hell can killing be fun ? Are you saying that the guy who took a gun to school and shot people did it for fun ?
Except of course, she said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldora View Post
Hunting is fun. Hunting is necessary. Hunting requires guns. Those guns aren't going anywhere.


And, by the way, you didn't answer The Man and the XX Master. I'd really, really like to hear your response to that.
Let's all work on our critical reading skills a bit.
   
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 04:02 PM

Hunting is still killing, you hunt it to kill it, therefore it's still killing. or maybe you bring the animal home alive and bung it the oven ?



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 04:03 PM

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Hunting is still killing, you hunt it to kill it, therefore it's still killing. or maybe you bring the animal home alive and bung it the oven ?
No. You implied that she was suggesting that boy killed for fun. As though that were the same as hunting, which you and I both know that it is not.
   
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 04:58 PM

Well he still killed, hunting is killing, hunting uses a gun, the boy killed people with a gun. Point made. need I say more.



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 05:00 PM

Thank you, Rosana. I'm glad to have some help, here.


Quote:
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You know what - guns don't have to be a way of living, hunting will eventually make animals extinct.

How the hell can killing be fun ? Are you saying that the guy who took a gun to school and shot people did it for fun ?

And I did answer them , maybe not everything because I do not have to answer everything.

The point I'm making and the point I've been making all along is a gun was used in a school shooting - they have been in used in school shootings in the past too, but guess what - school shootings still happen, http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

I believe most of those are in america are they not ?
Yet you still all insist school shootings are rare that time line on that link says different ^^

Still want to continue with guns are necessary ?

Hunting won't make animals extinct if you do it according to the law. With our laws, if there is an overload of bucks -- that is to say, male deer -- then we take bucks, which allows the fawns to grow to adulthood without being harmed by the bucks. The hunting of does in my state is highly restricted, so that the population can grow.

In conclusion, hunting actually helps the population of animals.


And yes, it is fun to kill deer. It's something that feels primal and real. Our species has done it since the dawn of time, and there's a traditional feel to it. It's a part of our culture.


Heh, and yes, I'll continue with guns are necessary, because they are. You don't understand us. I don't understand you. You could at the very least present some new arguments. Gosh, we've been talking in circles for the past week.


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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 05:09 PM

I did I gave you a link of all the school shootings, want to argue that they don't happen often despite the evidence of that link ?



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 06:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
There is your answer. Yes we are having more laws put in about knives I'm glad about that, knife crime in the UK is high and does need lowering. Tougher laws might well be the way to lower knife crime. And then maybe when knife crime is lowered all you Americans who saying are saying making guns illegal won't help, might actually start saying 'hmm the UK had a big knife crime problem, tougher laws were bought in, now there's not such a big problem with knives, maybe making guns illegal here might help our school shooting problem'
Gotta love that conservative mentality on crime, because we all know prohibition actually lowered alcohol use, the war on drugs is stopping drug use, and gun control is lowering violent crime rates.
Quote:
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Still want to continue with guns are necessary ?
I didn't know we lived by a communist mentality where only the necessary items are allowed to be owned. How about this: it's fun to shoot. More people die by cars than guns, but no one wants to ban suped up hot rods?

People shouldn't have to argue that they should be allowed to own something, you're supposed to be the one arguing why people shouldn't have guns. We could live in a fascist world and all be safe from crime if the government banned all dangerous things, but it's a freedom issue. The fact that I'm not allowed to own something for fear that a criminal might steal it from me is absurd.

And before you continue to go off on guns only being designed to kill, the kid in this school shooting used a .22 target pistol, a caliber so small that's meant for target shooting. It's also used more often in crimes than all other calibers combined.
   
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 07:36 PM

It's still a gun. Cars are needed to get around for most people cars are essential. Guns however are not, I'm pretty sure the majority of america could survive without guns. Other countries manage find without nearly everyhouse hold owning a gun. If nearly everyone in america feels the need to own a gun for safety reasons you must have some pretty serious crime problems.



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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 07:41 PM

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It's still a gun. Cars are needed to get around for most people cars are essential. Guns however are not, I'm pretty sure the majority of america could survive without guns. Other countries manage find without nearly everyhouse hold owning a gun. If nearly everyone in america feels the need to own a gun for safety reasons you must have some pretty serious crime problems.
Guns protect people. How would you go about banning guns? So all the honest and moral people turn theirs in, now the only armed ones are criminals. Congrats! As they say, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away! But my gun is half a second from being in my hand and chambered.


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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 08:51 PM

I think one main point that's being missed is that it would be nearly impossible to successfully eliminate guns from our society. Say guns were made illegal and everyone with a registered gun was ordered to turn them in, well plenty of people have unregistered guns, and therefore would be able to keep them with no one the wiser. And then there would have to be all of the loopholes for cops, and people in the armed forces. And when you look at the percentages the amount of people who own guns in relation to the amount of gun crimes is very low. Almost nothing compared to those who die from smoking, or car accidents, or mistakes made by a physician. Punishing the many for the mistakes of the few, or at least the opinions of the few, is not a smart move. Look at prohibition, that went well...


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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 09:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
You know what - guns don't have to be a way of living, hunting will eventually make animals extinct.

How the hell can killing be fun ? Are you saying that the guy who took a gun to school and shot people did it for fun ?

And I did answer them , maybe not everything because I do not have to answer everything.

The point I'm making and the point I've been making all along is a gun was used in a school shooting - they have been in used in school shootings in the past too, but guess what - school shootings still happen, http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

I believe most of those are in america are they not ?
Yet you still all insist school shootings are rare that time line on that link says different ^^

Still want to continue with guns are necessary ?
It depends on how you define rare. I would say school shootings are rare there are 1000s of schools in this nation and shootings happen what MAYBE five times a year. It is not fair, but you can not stop all crime the more you try to the more crime you have. It is like OK my college is a strict Christian school no smoking or drinking on or off campus, no going to clubs no sex outside of marriage yet people do it ALL the time. I am willing to bet that no fewer than fifty percent of people either drink or plan to upon turning of age. Point being that the stricter rules on something are the more people will break them and in the end the LESS control you have. If the school tried to regulate all those rules they would not have near as many students.
As for hunting not only does it help the population and feed people, but ALSO it IS a FELONY to take too many or to do so with no permit or out of season. I know you are saying people should not have to die in school shootings but the fact is that people DO manage their guns and it is not fair, but neither is the fact that my eighteen year old friend died in a house fire in 08. It is NEVER fair when people die young, but taking guns out of the picture for EVERYONE is NOT the way to fix it.




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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 09:15 PM

Can I make a suggestion here?

How about, instead of raking up the arguments about the meaning of the Second Amendment and gun control laws that are turned over practically every time something like this happens, we all simply agree that this is an area which leaves room for improvement and acknowledge those whose lives were lost? We can come up with all the exemptions and justifications for our particular opinion on the subject of gun ownership that we feel like, but I would hope we can all agree that the status quo in which it is evidently quite easy to (a) get hold of firearms, (b) enter an educational establishment and (c) inflict a fair amount of loss of life is not something which should be left as is. I don't claim to know what the answer is, and frankly I'd be an outright liar if I did, but that to me seems like a better starting point than calls for outright bans or total liberalisation.

That's just my two cents, and in keeping with my own suggestion my thoughts and prayers are with those killed and wounded and their families.


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
   
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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 09:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
Can I make a suggestion here?

How about, instead of raking up the arguments about the meaning of the Second Amendment and gun control laws that are turned over practically every time something like this happens, we all simply agree that this is an area which leaves room for improvement and acknowledge those whose lives were lost? We can come up with all the exemptions and justifications for our particular opinion on the subject of gun ownership that we feel like, but I would hope we can all agree that the status quo in which it is evidently quite easy to (a) get hold of firearms, (b) enter an educational establishment and (c) inflict a fair amount of loss of life is not something which should be left as is. I don't claim to know what the answer is, and frankly I'd be an outright liar if I did, but that to me seems like a better starting point than calls for outright bans or total liberalisation.

That's just my two cents, and in keeping with my own suggestion my thoughts and prayers are with those killed and wounded and their families.
amen brother the fact is it is sad and something must change but banning guns is not it. It just may make the issue worse.




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Re: Shooting inside an Ohio high school - March 5th 2012, 09:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
In the UK guns are illegal and I've said this time and time again (so I just before tearing up what I say in little quotes that you read all my previous posts properly!)
I clearly indicated in my initial post that guns are already illegal in the UK but you missed it so allow me to quote my previous post so it may become evident:

"The problem is if gun crimes are committed by illegally owned guns, then what benefit will the laws have, other than complicating the already convoluted laws?"

You can lay your nonsense assumptions to rest as I read every user's post before composing my initial post. Just to be clear, I'm aware guns are illegal in the UK. You've mentioned it endlessly even after users acknowledged it. I don't know if you're trying to convince people by stone-walling them with saying the same thing over and over so they give up or if you think many users have a memory span comparable to that of a goldfish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
We have laws, laws are there for a purpose to protect the country from scum like the person who took a gun to school and shot people and killed people.
Laws are there for a reason, I agree. When laws fail time and time again, as evident by the few school shootings in the US and however many knife crimes in the UK, it's reasonable to forge news laws. Once the new laws are enacted and violated with the same crimes occurring, it's obvious making more laws is not the answer and something else has to be done. The issue is multi-dimensional, so why go at it from just one approach?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer View Post
Here in the UK we probably do have people who own guns illegally, I'm not saying we don't because we probably do. I just don't know of them. So with that in mind - you could make guns illegal and have shops not sell them. Guns are not cool they are violent and dangerous weapons. They kill. Why would anyone want to own something that kills ? It makes no sense to me.
People own guns for various reasons. My uncle owns guns to go hunting, my neighbour owns a gun because he's a police officer, one of my cousins is a military and gun hobbyist, as well as a plethora of other reasons. The problem with the laws you're suggesting is they do not address individuals who already illegally own guns and ironically, they're the ones who likely commit gun crimes.

How do you determine what is necessary and unnecessary? You've set yourself on a slippery slope because once you declare guns as unnecessary, it begs the question what else is unnecessary and should be taken away? Axes, machetes, bow-and-arrows, bats and clubs are all items that can be and have been used to kill. They're often used for other purposes but are they necessary or unnecessary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banshee-Screamer
I did I gave you a link of all the school shootings, want to argue that they don't happen often despite the evidence of that link ?
The link contained school shootings between 1996 to 2010, which is a total of 5,110 days. Your list has roughly 50 days (I estimated). That gives approx. 50/5,110 (0.98%) or 99.02% of the time during 14 years they don't happen. If you want to go by maximum and minimum amounts: 2010 had the fewest with 1/365 (0.28%) or 99.72% they didn't happen, with the maximum of 6/365 (1.64%) or 98.36% of the time in 1 year they don't happen. Can you explain how your evidence shows school shootings happen often?


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