TeenHelp
Support Forums Today's Posts

Get Advice Connect with TeenHelp Resources
HelpLINK Facebook     Twitter     Tumblr     Instagram    Hotlines    Safety Zone    Alternatives

You are not registered or have not logged in

Hello guest! (Not a guest? Log in above!)

As a guest on TeenHelp you are only able to use some of our site's features. By registering an account you will be able to enjoy unlimited access to our site, and will be able to:

  • Connect with thousands of teenagers worldwide by actively taking part in our Support Forums and Chat Room.
  • Find others with similar interests in our Social Groups.
  • Express yourself through our Blogs, Picture Albums and User Profiles.
  • And much much more!

Signing up is free, anonymous and will only take a few moments, so click here to register now!


Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  (#1 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
chickenonsteroids's Avatar
 

Posts: 509
Join Date: August 9th 2011

Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 01:27 PM

Yo,

This might be an odd question for many but why does god have the properties he is usually given?

Why is he omniscient and not just smart? or powerful?
Why is he all powerful and not just a creator?
Why not just something else?

I know a lot of people work under Aquinas' definition of calling him 'the greatest conceivable being' but can't humans be mistaken about what is 'perfect'? It's really easy just adding 'omni' to every preferable trait you could think of but after a while it looks like god just becomes a 'build your own superhero' type thing.

How do you account for the properties god has without referring to a religious text? I find a few of the traits of god contradictory and they would be solved by removing 'omni' from the traits. But then again I guess that'd make god look like something that isn't worshipping. (If you want to answer this as well... if god does exist, is it mandatory that we worship it?)


Hey, guess why i smile a lot... because it's worth it

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.
   
  (#2 (permalink)) Old
Henry Tyrell Offline
Member
Junior TeenHelper
****
 
Henry Tyrell's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Gender: Male

Posts: 230
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: January 31st 2012

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 04:12 PM

I'm pretty sure it's because the Judeo-Christian God was competing with other Gods (ok, God himself wasn't competing...) to be the One True God, and therefore he was made to be the most powerful one of all...

It's not so if you go back and look at the Gods of other cultures.... like the Greek Pantheon for example. They aren't all powerful or everywhere at once, and they have different degrees of intelligence.
   
  (#3 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
chickenonsteroids's Avatar
 

Posts: 509
Join Date: August 9th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 04:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosana View Post
I'm pretty sure it's because the Judeo-Christian God was competing with other Gods (ok, God himself wasn't competing...) to be the One True God, and therefore he was made to be the most powerful one of all...

It's not so if you go back and look at the Gods of other cultures.... like the Greek Pantheon for example. They aren't all powerful or everywhere at once, and they have different degrees of intelligence.
Made to be the most powerful? By whom? Humans? Or is that 'just his nature'?

I'm not sure how the god of christians accounts for why god is all the things that is usually attached to him.


Hey, guess why i smile a lot... because it's worth it

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.
   
  (#4 (permalink)) Old
Henry Tyrell Offline
Member
Junior TeenHelper
****
 
Henry Tyrell's Avatar
 
Age: 26
Gender: Male

Posts: 230
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: January 31st 2012

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 05:02 PM

.... If he was competing with other Gods, he wasn't exactly the one true God, now was he? Just one of many. Men made him to be more powerful than any other God, more powerful than he may or may not be (as an Atheist, I don't believe he exists at all).
   
  (#5 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
chickenonsteroids's Avatar
 

Posts: 509
Join Date: August 9th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosana View Post
.... If he was competing with other Gods, he wasn't exactly the one true God, now was he? Just one of many. Men made him to be more powerful than any other God, more powerful than he may or may not be (as an Atheist, I don't believe he exists at all).
I realise that.

But that doesn't account for why he is the way he is other than the fact that humans have said he's like that. Surely if god isn't man made then there should be another way to verify that. Other than religious texts because that begs the question.


Hey, guess why i smile a lot... because it's worth it

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.
   
  (#6 (permalink)) Old
dr2005 Offline
Legal Beagle
I can't get enough
*********
 
dr2005's Avatar
 
Name: Dave
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Location: UK

Posts: 2,221
Join Date: February 14th 2010

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 05:31 PM

It basically comes down to the perceived need for God, as the argued creator of pretty much everything, to have requisite qualities placing him at the end of the causal chain. If, for example, God is deemed to be very powerful yet another being which is more powerful (however slightly) exists, then it undermines God's position as origin in light of the competing claim. Whether that actually requires God to be omnipotent, omniscient etc. is debatable from a philosophical perspective, but that seems the most logical reason for it. With a pantheon of gods and goddesses the causal chain is less of an obvious issue (although arguably it has to kick in somewhere, which is why I don't find Greek mythology convincing for example), which is perhaps why it seems more of an issue for monotheistic religions.


"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." - Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
RIP Nick
   
  (#7 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
chickenonsteroids's Avatar
 

Posts: 509
Join Date: August 9th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 05:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
It basically comes down to the perceived need for God, as the argued creator of pretty much everything, to have requisite qualities placing him at the end of the causal chain. If, for example, God is deemed to be very powerful yet another being which is more powerful (however slightly) exists, then it undermines God's position as origin in light of the competing claim. Whether that actually requires God to be omnipotent, omniscient etc. is debatable from a philosophical perspective, but that seems the most logical reason for it. With a pantheon of gods and goddesses the causal chain is less of an obvious issue (although arguably it has to kick in somewhere, which is why I don't find Greek mythology convincing for example), which is perhaps why it seems more of an issue for monotheistic religions.
So it comes down to the 'greatest conceivable being' thing again? What if there are different opinions on what that being is? Why does god need all these properties?

Sorry for the questions but it seems that you're saying people want there to be a god they can worship so they make him appear like the greatest thing possible. What if it's logically impossible?


Hey, guess why i smile a lot... because it's worth it

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.
   
  (#8 (permalink)) Old
NevermindMe Offline
The Straight Edge Sniper
I've been here a while
********
 
NevermindMe's Avatar
 
Gender: Male

Posts: 1,816
Join Date: March 8th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 05:55 PM

Why can't he be "just smart" or "just powerful" simple, because smart or powerful are human traits. If God were just a human in the sky, it would defy our reason for worshipping him/it.

He is all powerful and not just a creator because once you create and build something all alone, it's usually pretty easy to change/control.

However I think it is not necessary to worship God, however I think showing that you're humble and apreciative would go a long way to impressing God. I don't think God just goes around daming everyone to hell who doesn't worship him, as that would go against most of people's concepts of God. (Loving, caring, compassionate.)

- Justin



"Buy it, use it, break it, fix it,
Trash it, change it, mail, upgrade it,
Charge it, point it, zoom it, press it,
Snap it, work it, quick, erase it,
Write it, cut it, paste it, save it,
Load it, check it, quick, rewrite it"
Technologic
   
  (#9 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 05:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
Yo,

This might be an odd question for many but why does god have the properties he is usually given?
I will give you my insignificant opinion, and I say that to mean that whatever I say should be taken as a grain of salt. I don't know that I agree with the standard image of G-D, and I don't pretend to even begin to understand anything about Him. However, I am will try to answer it logically, without the use of scripture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
Why is he omniscient and not just smart? or powerful?
Why is he all powerful and not just a creator?
The degree to which He is smart or powerful is debatable. Not all people, even Christians, believe that He is omniscient or omnipotent. I don't know where I stand on this, and to be honest, I don't really think it matters. The Bible never says, to my knowledge, "He is omniscient and omnipotent." It, of course, says things like He is "perfect" in knowledge, and that He is the most powerful, etc. but never omniscient (perfect is debatable) or omnipotent.

However, I think logically we conclude that He is these things because He created those things. As confusing as that sounds. If G-D is the Creator, then He has to be the Creator of all knowledge and all strength So, logically, He would have to be the most knowledgeable and the strongest. As to whether this means He is omni is debatable, I suppose. However, it is important to note that G-D can't do ALL things. In fact, the Bible makes a point to say that He can't. I.E. G-D can't lie. I don't know how this all works out because technically didn't G-D create lies? The Bible says He didn't, but logically, that doesn't make sense to me, so I don't really try to understand these things that much.

I suppose it is somewhat ignorant to me to be that way, but I try to base my image on G-D of what Christ is. I do this because we are told that Christ IS the image of G-D. So, if this is true, then I suppose G-D must be merciful, loving, cares for sinners, etc. And that's all I can really base my image of Him on. But, I take my stance on the Bible differently that most Christians, and I can get into that later, but that's not your question.

I guess my truthful answer is that I don't know what G-D is. But, it seems to me that He would have to be the most intelligent and powerful, at least in the Universe, since He created it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
I know a lot of people work under Aquinas' definition of calling him 'the greatest conceivable being' but can't humans be mistaken about what is 'perfect'?
Oh, I believe humans are mistaken on both things. See, how I kind of view G-D is that He is whoever He is. I try not to get caught in the semantics of it. I don't really try to imagine G-D, or try to fit Him in this box like most theologians do. I kind of believe He just is. I don't care if He is omnipotent. He created the Universe, that's who He is to me. I don't care if He is omniscient, He knows all about the Universe, and that's who He is to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
How do you account for the properties god has without referring to a religious text? I find a few of the traits of god contradictory and they would be solved by removing 'omni' from the traits. But then again I guess that'd make god look like something that isn't worshipping. (If you want to answer this as well... if god does exist, is it mandatory that we worship it?)
I believe, based on the former part of this thread, you are finding a contradiction in omnipotent and omniscient. The most famous divine paradox, of course, is: "Can G-D create a boulder He cannot move?"

If G-D knows all that can be known and can do all that can be done, then there is no contradiction. It's as simple as that. The question itself is illogical. What I mean is, G-D cannot create a square to be round. It is illogical. The statement is what is illogical, not the qualities of G-D. As I've said, G-D cannot lie. So, we know there are things G-D cannot do. G-D cannot do something illogical, unless He went back in-time and un-created logic. So, to my mind, it is the question itself that is flawed.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#10 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 06:10 PM

I don't think any of us can really answer why God is a certain way. He just is. And yes, He does require us to worship Him. Once someone is saved and has a relationship with Him though, they are going to want to and it's a privilage. It's one of the greatest things I get to do in life.
   
  (#11 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
chickenonsteroids's Avatar
 

Posts: 509
Join Date: August 9th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 06:53 PM

I forgot to add. Thanks for the responses

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
Why can't he be "just smart" or "just powerful" simple, because smart or powerful are human traits. If God were just a human in the sky, it would defy our reason for worshipping him/it.

He is all powerful and not just a creator because once you create and build something all alone, it's usually pretty easy to change/control.

However I think it is not necessary to worship God, however I think showing that you're humble and apreciative would go a long way to impressing God. I don't think God just goes around daming everyone to hell who doesn't worship him, as that would go against most of people's concepts of God. (Loving, caring, compassionate.)

- Justin
So what? Animals have human traits, it doesn't mean i'm exactly like an ape. If god created the universe, he's pretty powerful but it doesn't mean he'd be a human just because he has our traits. It looks like the fallacy of composition. What makes him 'omni' potent?

How do you know he doesn't do that? What if god is actually evil but we want him to be good? Just because a lot of people think something is one way doesn't make it true in anyway. I won't get into my issues about calling god loving. But it's meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
However, I think logically we conclude that He is these things because He created those things. As confusing as that sounds. If G-D is the Creator, then He has to be the Creator of all knowledge and all strength So, logically, He would have to be the most knowledgeable and the strongest. As to whether this means He is omni is debatable, I suppose. However, it is important to note that G-D can't do ALL things. In fact, the Bible makes a point to say that He can't. I.E. G-D can't lie. I don't know how this all works out because technically didn't G-D create lies? The Bible says He didn't, but logically, that doesn't make sense to me, so I don't really try to understand these things that much.
That just isn't true. If someone created aids and let it loose it wouldn't make them more powerful than the disease. Why can't god lie? Is that not under his control? Or do you just want him to be incapable of such things?


Quote:
I guess my truthful answer is that I don't know what G-D is. But, it seems to me that He would have to be the most intelligent and powerful, at least in the Universe, since He created it.
Why? Why couldn't he have just created it and it no longer being under control?

Quote:
I believe, based on the former part of this thread, you are finding a contradiction in omnipotent and omniscient. The most famous divine paradox, of course, is: "Can G-D create a boulder He cannot move?"

If G-D knows all that can be known and can do all that can be done, then there is no contradiction. It's as simple as that. The question itself is illogical. What I mean is, G-D cannot create a square to be round. It is illogical. The statement is what is illogical, not the qualities of G-D. As I've said, G-D cannot lie. So, we know there are things G-D cannot do. G-D cannot do something illogical, unless He went back in-time and un-created logic. So, to my mind, it is the question itself that is flawed.
No. That isn't the source of my annoyance with the traits. The rock paradox is a false dilemma. It's like asking to make a married bachelor.

I don't think god is free in the sense that he can't be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time. I'll say why. It's due to the fact that if he knows with infallible certainty what he will do tomorrow then he wouldn't have the power to change it. If he does then he can't know it with infallible certainty what he's going to do. It doesn't make sense to me. I've heard about the ordained power thing and it's amazing how precise you have to get in order to define god. Why not just remove all of these omni tags from him. You don't know how they arose especially before the universe. As that is what is natural state is meant to be without the universe. Just god. How he got an effective will, I don't know. How he just is appears to be an assertion rather than a proof. Then it moves back to the ontological argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I don't think any of us can really answer why God is a certain way. He just is. And yes, He does require us to worship Him. Once someone is saved and has a relationship with Him though, they are going to want to and it's a privilage. It's one of the greatest things I get to do in life.
Why? How do you know these things? Is it just a feeling?


Hey, guess why i smile a lot... because it's worth it

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.
   
  (#12 (permalink)) Old
dr2005 Offline
Legal Beagle
I can't get enough
*********
 
dr2005's Avatar
 
Name: Dave
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Location: UK

Posts: 2,221
Join Date: February 14th 2010

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
So it comes down to the 'greatest conceivable being' thing again? What if there are different opinions on what that being is? Why does god need all these properties?

Sorry for the questions but it seems that you're saying people want there to be a god they can worship so they make him appear like the greatest thing possible. What if it's logically impossible?
You're assuming that human perspectives are integral to the notion of "greatest conceivable being", yet you haven't provided any reason why. Aquinas' definition of the term was by recourse to logic - that is to say, whichever traits are logically required by such a being are possessed by God - and not by recourse to the consensus on what would constitute such a being. To give one example, Aquinas never claimed God to be omnipotent - instead, he argued in terms of God possessing whatever powers are logically necessary to create and sustain the Universe. Your question of whether such a thing is "logically impossible" is therefore something of a non sequitur.

Apologies if that comes across a bit bluntly, but I feel you may need to revisit Aquinas' use of terminology again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
I don't think god is free in the sense that he can't be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time. I'll say why. It's due to the fact that if he knows with infallible certainty what he will do tomorrow then he wouldn't have the power to change it. If he does then he can't know it with infallible certainty what he's going to do. It doesn't make sense to me.
You're assuming that God operates subject to the rules and processes of time and causation in that argument. Given that we are talking about a being which theoretically exists outside of the confines of the Universe, and therefore likely the operation of both of these, I feel you need to provide more support for this assumption. Otherwise, your argument collapses in on itself.


"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." - Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
RIP Nick
   
  (#13 (permalink)) Old
Megan1 Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Megan1's Avatar
 
Name: Megan
Gender: Female
Location: USA

Posts: 928
Join Date: February 6th 2010

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 07:26 PM

I.m doing this from my phone so I can't quote you, but no it's not a feeling. God has given me the faith to believe the bible and the bible says so.
   
  (#14 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
chickenonsteroids's Avatar
 

Posts: 509
Join Date: August 9th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 07:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
You're assuming that human perspectives are integral to the notion of "greatest conceivable being", yet you haven't provided any reason why. Aquinas' definition of the term was by recourse to logic - that is to say, whichever traits are logically required by such a being are possessed by God - and not by recourse to the consensus on what would constitute such a being. To give one example, Aquinas never claimed God to be omnipotent - instead, he argued in terms of God possessing whatever powers are logically necessary to create and sustain the Universe. Your question of whether such a thing is "logically impossible" is therefore something of a non sequitur.

Apologies if that comes across a bit bluntly, but I feel you may need to revisit Aquinas' use of terminology again.
No, thanks for the response. 'Blunt' or not.

I know what Aquinas was talking about but the traits that are usually ascribed to him are that of omnipotent and omniscience etc. I remember watching a WLC video and he mentioned those things as part of being 'maximally perfect'. He also included being 'good'. It's just an observation.


Quote:
You're assuming that God operates subject to the rules and processes of time and causation in that argument. Given that we are talking about a being which theoretically exists outside of the confines of the Universe, and therefore likely the operation of both of these, I feel you need to provide more support for this assumption. Otherwise, your argument collapses in on itself.
So if he's outside of these rules then he could do the logically impossible right? How does that make sense? Under what circumstances could he hold omniscience and omnipotent at the same time? If it's based on the logically impossible... what's the point in talking about it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I.m doing this from my phone so I can't quote you, but no it's not a feeling. God has given me the faith to believe the bible and the bible says so.
That's a feeling. All you've done is assumed the bible is true and your faith is a feeling from that assumption.

If so, prove everything you've said.


Hey, guess why i smile a lot... because it's worth it

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.
   
  (#15 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ThisWillDestroyYou's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Gender: Male
Location: USA

Posts: 1,050
Join Date: July 5th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 08:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
That just isn't true. If someone created aids and let it loose it wouldn't make them more powerful than the disease. Why can't god lie? Is that not under his control? Or do you just want him to be incapable of such things?
I suppose I see your point to a degree, but if that person created aids, they would be responsible for creating the potency of it. If G-D created power, then everything must be subject under His power. So, in that regard, He has to be the most powerful. For example, the Atom Bomb, everything that makes up of the atom bomb must be equally as powerful as the bomb, or there is no way the bomb itself could have that potency. It doesn't just magically get that power. In the same way, whoever can construct an atom bomb must be as intelligent as the bomb in order to get it to function.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
Why? Why couldn't he have just created it and it no longer being under control?
If He created it and is in no longer control, it is because He chose to let go, not because He lost control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
No. That isn't the source of my annoyance with the traits. The rock paradox is a false dilemma. It's like asking to make a married bachelor.

I don't think god is free in the sense that he can't be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time. I'll say why. It's due to the fact that if he knows with infallible certainty what he will do tomorrow then he wouldn't have the power to change it.
But your assuming His omniscience operates out of His omnipotence and not along with it. If He knows what He will do tomorrow, than even if He CHANGED what He does tomorrow, He would still have KNOWN He would have CHANGED it. So, He still has the power to change tomorrow, but He would just know He was going to change it. However, this is only assuming His power operates freely and apart from His knowledge, which can't be the case if He is equally as knowledgeable as He is powerful. It is also the assumption that G-D operates within time. If G-D operates outside of time then He sees everything as one instance (I'm remind of the book Slaughter House Five, have you read it?) and doesn't see tomorrow as tomorrow, but rather sees all time as one decree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
If he does then he can't know it with infallible certainty what he's going to do. It doesn't make sense to me. I've heard about the ordained power thing and it's amazing how precise you have to get in order to define god. Why not just remove all of these omni tags from him. You don't know how they arose especially before the universe. As that is what is natural state is meant to be without the universe. Just god. How he got an effective will, I don't know. How he just is appears to be an assertion rather than a proof. Then it moves back to the ontological argument.
I'm not opposed to removing the omni tags. I don't know what G-D is. I don't believe the Bible defines it clearly enough, I believe they just sparked from tradition. However, if they do apply to G-D that is fine with me too. In my case, I'm fine with G-D being omni, even if I don't comprehend the logic behind it. There's a lot I don't understand in this world, even logically, but I still believe it.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
  (#16 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
chickenonsteroids's Avatar
 

Posts: 509
Join Date: August 9th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 6th 2012, 08:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
I suppose I see your point to a degree, but if that person created aids, they would be responsible for creating the potency of it. If G-D created power, then everything must be subject under His power. So, in that regard, He has to be the most powerful. For example, the Atom Bomb, everything that makes up of the atom bomb must be equally as powerful as the bomb, or there is no way the bomb itself could have that potency. It doesn't just magically get that power. In the same way, whoever can construct an atom bomb must be as intelligent as the bomb in order to get it to function.
You can be all those things but it doesn't mean to can do anything. It feels like a leap of logic. Being able to control everything in the universe =/= omnipotence. Did he create logic as well? Also, why is it only one god involve in the creation of the universe? To replace your bomb example with the computer (i find it difficult to say a bomb has any form of intelligence). Computers were made with many people involved. 1 person isn't necessarily smarter than the computer. It's just more powerful i.e has control over it.

Quote:
If He created it and is in no longer control, it is because He chose to let go, not because He lost control.
Why would he ever lose control? Also, if he did chose to lose control, could he regain it?

Quote:
But your assuming His omniscience operates out of His omnipotence and not along with it. If He knows what He will do tomorrow, than even if He CHANGED what He does tomorrow, He would still have KNOWN He would have CHANGED it. So, He still has the power to change tomorrow, but He would just know He was going to change it. However, this is only assuming His power operates freely and apart from His knowledge, which can't be the case if He is equally as knowledgeable as He is powerful. It is also the assumption that G-D operates within time. If G-D operates outside of time then He sees everything as one instance (I'm remind of the book Slaughter House Five, have you read it?) and doesn't see tomorrow as tomorrow, but rather sees all time as one decree.
I don't see how they can work together. I'm not sure you understand the power of omniscience. He knows everything including all the little things that he'd supposedly change. Everything with infallible certainty. Which in turn means it's set in stone. How will his omnipotence affect that without making sure he wasn't certain about what he was going to. He still seems locked within omniscience or omnipotence. They don't work harmoniously together.

Even if god does work outside of time and sees everything as one, what's the point of saying he does things in time if everything has already happened to him? It's difficult to explain. I might try again, sorry but can you explain where my assumption is made?
Quote:
I'm not opposed to removing the omni tags. I don't know what G-D is. I don't believe the Bible defines it clearly enough, I believe they just sparked from tradition. However, if they do apply to G-D that is fine with me too. In my case, I'm fine with G-D being omni, even if I don't comprehend the logic behind it. There's a lot I don't understand in this world, even logically, but I still believe it.
Ok, what ever works for you. I think it'd be better to do that. omni -enter trait here- is unnecessary.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.


Hey, guess why i smile a lot... because it's worth it

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.
   
  (#17 (permalink)) Old
NevermindMe Offline
The Straight Edge Sniper
I've been here a while
********
 
NevermindMe's Avatar
 
Gender: Male

Posts: 1,816
Join Date: March 8th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 7th 2012, 12:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
So what? Animals have human traits, it doesn't mean i'm exactly like an ape. If god created the universe, he's pretty powerful but it doesn't mean he'd be a human just because he has our traits. It looks like the fallacy of composition. What makes him 'omni' potent?

How do you know he doesn't do that? What if god is actually evil but we want him to be good? Just because a lot of people think something is one way doesn't make it true in anyway. I won't get into my issues about calling god loving. But it's meaningless.
Good point about people having animal traits. However you might call an animal "clever" but obviouslythat same term wouldn't be applicable to people. "Intelligent" is probably a better term, right? Although we could call god "smart" it doesn't necessarily reflect the magnitude of creating the entire planet and the begingins of life on it in a way that they would eventually evolve into our exact species in this point of time. Obviously it took a lot more than smarts to figure out exactly how to set up the dominos that would become the modern world.

Maybe he is an evil spiteful being. However based on the Christian ideal of God (the one you seem to have in mind) he is loving, and as a result the worship of him or not wouldn't matter. Actually, in most concepts of God he's portrayed as loving. So although he may be evil, I would have no reason to assume that you suspected that.

- Justin



"Buy it, use it, break it, fix it,
Trash it, change it, mail, upgrade it,
Charge it, point it, zoom it, press it,
Snap it, work it, quick, erase it,
Write it, cut it, paste it, save it,
Load it, check it, quick, rewrite it"
Technologic
   
  (#18 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
chickenonsteroids's Avatar
 

Posts: 509
Join Date: August 9th 2011

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 7th 2012, 12:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
Good point about people having animal traits. However you might call an animal "clever" but obviouslythat same term wouldn't be applicable to people. "Intelligent" is probably a better term, right? Although we could call god "smart" it doesn't necessarily reflect the magnitude of creating the entire planet and the begingins of life on it in a way that they would eventually evolve into our exact species in this point of time. Obviously it took a lot more than smarts to figure out exactly how to set up the dominos that would become the modern world.

Maybe he is an evil spiteful being. However based on the Christian ideal of God (the one you seem to have in mind) he is loving, and as a result the worship of him or not wouldn't matter. Actually, in most concepts of God he's portrayed as loving. So although he may be evil, I would have no reason to assume that you suspected that.

- Justin
I don't have any religious god in mind necessarily because that means I'd have to accept their religious text as true. I don't want to do that.

I know most concepts if god are portrayed as loving... but why? Why can't he be apathetic instead?


Hey, guess why i smile a lot... because it's worth it

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.
   
  (#19 (permalink)) Old
Stupidity Kills
Outside, huh?
**********
 
OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!'s Avatar
 

Posts: 4,500
Blog Entries: 10
Join Date: December 19th 2009

Re: Why is god the way he is? - May 7th 2012, 01:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
This might be an odd question for many but why does god have the properties he is usually given?
Humans created the concept of god to explain phenomena they couldn't understand in any other way. For example, in Greek mythology, different gods and goddesses are deemed responsible for certain natural events. The notion of god and the associated religious texts reflect the society at the time, as well as striving to ensure control. In order for people to relate to god, there must be enough human-like qualities for it to be believable. It's easier to believe a human or human-like entity is responsible for say, water, instead of ascribing a purply-thorny one-eyed mentally challenged penguin. In other words, the properties reflect the needs at the time and incorporating all idealized values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
Why is he omniscient and not just smart? or powerful?
If a society turns to god to explain a natural event after exhausting all other means, presumably the god has knowledge even the smartest person doesn't. This places god on a pedestal, however, referring to god as smart places him at the same level as society. In order for him to be placed on a pedestal, he must have extraordinary qualities and since a fundamental reason for creating a god is knowledge, the god must be as smart as possible or have infinite knowledge. Society could ascribe god as being incredibly stupid but that implies everyone in society is a complete dunce, so it's also a matter of saving face to ascribe god with "omni-" traits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
Why is he all powerful and not just a creator?
If god is the creator of life or creator of whatever but is powerless, it would be difficult to convince people he should be worshiped as no penalties can be employed. It would also be difficult to understand how the creator of life can be killed, despite a constant emergence of new life. In fact, it would imply death trumps life and so everything should die without any new life emergence.

In a polytheistic belief, such as Greek mythology, there is a hierarchy of power. In other words, god doesn't have to be neither all-powerful nor a creator of life. In a monotheistic belief, stating god is all-powerful allows for people to win the "which god is more powerful" game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
I know most concepts if god are portrayed as loving... but why? Why can't he be apathetic instead?
Most societies value happiness and loving over apathy. Using the view of god as a mechanism for people to control other people, it would be advantageous to describe god as loving as it implies those who believe should also be loving, trusting and open. Those three traits provide greater ease for control as opposed to apathy, where threats of punishment from a god would have minimal impact.

From a different view, humans are social creatures, in which there is an abundance of bonding with others. An apathetic god would seem less human-like and would be indifferent to any worship, so people might as well talk to a wall. If the god is loving, it allows for an emotional connection, parenting with love instead of apathy, etc... .


I can rip you off, and steal all your cash, suckerpunch you in the face, stand back and laugh. Leave you stranded as fast as a heart-attack.
- Danko Jones (I Think Bad Thoughts)
   
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
god

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All material copyright 1998-2019, TeenHelp.
Terms | Legal | Privacy | Conduct | Complaints

Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000-2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search engine optimization by vBSEO.
Theme developed in association with vBStyles.