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What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 16th 2012, 12:26 AM

This appears on CNN's website today. The author is a prof at U of West Georgia, which is hardly a bastion of liberalism. It is the best treatment of the subject I have ever read.

Maybe the mods would consider making it a sticky as it is a recurring subject here.


What the bible really says about homosexuality.
We now face religious jingoism, the imposition of personal beliefs on the whole pluralistic society. Worse still, these beliefs are irrational, just a fiction of blind conviction. Nowhere does the Bible actually oppose homosexuality.
In the past 60 years, we have learned more about sex, by far, than in preceding millennia. Is it likely that an ancient people, who thought the male was the basic biological model and the world flat, understood homosexuality as we do today? Could they have even addressed the questions about homosexuality that we grapple with today? Of course not.
Hard evidence supports this commonsensical expectation. Taken on its own terms, read in the original languages, placed back into its historical context, the Bible is ho-hum on homosexuality, unless – as with heterosexuality – injustice and abuse are involved.
That, in fact, was the case among the Sodomites (Genesis 19), whose experience is frequently cited by modern anti-gay critics. The Sodomites wanted to rape the visitors whom Lot, the one just man in the city, welcomed in hospitality for the night.
The Bible itself is lucid on the sin of Sodom: pride, lack of concern for the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:48-49); hatred of strangers and cruelty to guests (Wisdom 19:13); arrogance (Sirach/Ecclesiaticus 16:8); evildoing, injustice, oppression of the widow and orphan (Isaiah 1:17); adultery (in those days, the use of another man’s property), and lying (Jeremiah 23:12).
But nowhere are same-sex acts named as the sin of Sodom. That intended gang rape only expressed the greater sin, condemned in the Bible from cover to cover: hatred, injustice, cruelty, lack of concern for others. Hence, Jesus says “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19; Mark 12:31); and “By this will they know you are my disciples” (John 13:35).
How inverted these values have become! In the name of Jesus, evangelicals and Catholic bishops make sex the Christian litmus test and are willing to sacrifice the social safety net in return.
The longest biblical passage on male-male sex is Romans 1:26-27: "Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another."
The Greek term para physin has been translated unnatural; itshould read atypical or unusual. In the technical sense, yes, the Stoic philosophers did use para physin to mean unnatural, but this term also had a widespread popular meaning. It is this latter meaning that informs Paul's writing. It carries no ethical condemnation.
Compare the passage on male-male sex to Romans 11:24. There, Paul applies the term para physin to God. God grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish people, a wild branch into a cultivated vine. Not your standard practice! An unusual thing to do — atypical, nothing more. The anti-gay "unnatural" hullabaloo rests on a mistranslation.
Besides, Paul used two other words to describe male-male sex: dishonorable (1:24, 26) and unseemly (1:27). But for Paul, neither carried ethical weight. In 2 Corinthians 6:8 and 11:21, Paul says that even he was held in dishonor — for preaching Christ. Clearly, these words merely indicate social disrepute, not truly unethical behavior.
In this passage Paul is referring to the ancient Jewish Law: Leviticus 18:22, the “abomination” of a man’s lying with another man. Paul sees male-male sex as an impurity, a taboo, uncleanness — in other words, “abomination.” Introducing this discussion in 1:24, he says so outright: "God gave them up … to impurity."
But Jesus taught lucidly that Jewish requirements for purity — varied cultural traditions — do not matter before God. What matters is purity of heart.
“It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles,” reads Matthew 15. “What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles. For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.”
Or again, Jesus taught, “Everyone who looks at a women with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). Jesus rejected the purity requirements of the Jewish Law.
In calling it unclean, Paul was not condemning male-male sex. He had terms to express condemnation. Before and after his section on sex, he used truly condemnatory terms: godless, evil, wicked or unjust, not to be done. But he never used ethical terms around that issue of sex.
As for marriage, again, the Bible is more liberal than we hear today. The Jewish patriarchs had many wives and concubines. David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably lovers.
The Bible’s Song of Songs is a paean to romantic love with no mention of children or a married couple. Jesus never mentioned same-sex behaviors, although he did heal the “servant” — pais, a Greek term for male lover — of the Roman Centurion.
Paul discouraged marriage because he believed the world would soon end. Still, he encouraged people with sexual needs to marry, and he never linked sex and procreation.
Were God-given reason to prevail, rather than knee-jerk religion, we would not be having a heated debate over gay marriage. “Liberty and justice for all,” marvel at the diversity of creation, welcome for one another: these, alas, are true biblical values.
We now face religious jingoism, the imposition of personal beliefs on the whole pluralistic society. Worse still, these beliefs are irrational, just a fiction of blind conviction. Nowhere does the Bible actually oppose homosexuality.
In the past 60 years, we have learned more about sex, by far, than in preceding millennia. Is it likely that an ancient people, who thought the male was the basic biological model and the world flat, understood homosexuality as we do today? Could they have even addressed the questions about homosexuality that we grapple with today? Of course not.
CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories
Hard evidence supports this commonsensical expectation. Taken on its own terms, read in the original languages, placed back into its historical context, the Bible is ho-hum on homosexuality, unless – as with heterosexuality – injustice and abuse are involved.
That, in fact, was the case among the Sodomites (Genesis 19), whose experience is frequently cited by modern anti-gay critics. The Sodomites wanted to rape the visitors whom Lot, the one just man in the city, welcomed in hospitality for the night.
The Bible itself is lucid on the sin of Sodom: pride, lack of concern for the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:48-49); hatred of strangers and cruelty to guests (Wisdom 19:13); arrogance (Sirach/Ecclesiaticus 16:8); evildoing, injustice, oppression of the widow and orphan (Isaiah 1:17); adultery (in those days, the use of another man’s property), and lying (Jeremiah 23:12).
But nowhere are same-sex acts named as the sin of Sodom. That intended gang rape only expressed the greater sin, condemned in the Bible from cover to cover: hatred, injustice, cruelty, lack of concern for others. Hence, Jesus says “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19; Mark 12:31); and “By this will they know you are my disciples” (John 13:35).
How inverted these values have become! In the name of Jesus, evangelicals and Catholic bishops make sex the Christian litmus test and are willing to sacrifice the social safety net in return.
The longest biblical passage on male-male sex is Romans 1:26-27: "Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another."
The Greek term para physin has been translated unnatural; itshould read atypical or unusual. In the technical sense, yes, the Stoic philosophers did use para physin to mean unnatural, but this term also had a widespread popular meaning. It is this latter meaning that informs Paul's writing. It carries no ethical condemnation.
Compare the passage on male-male sex to Romans 11:24. There, Paul applies the term para physin to God. God grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish people, a wild branch into a cultivated vine. Not your standard practice! An unusual thing to do — atypical, nothing more. The anti-gay "unnatural" hullabaloo rests on a mistranslation.
Besides, Paul used two other words to describe male-male sex: dishonorable (1:24, 26) and unseemly (1:27). But for Paul, neither carried ethical weight. In 2 Corinthians 6:8 and 11:21, Paul says that even he was held in dishonor — for preaching Christ. Clearly, these words merely indicate social disrepute, not truly unethical behavior.
In this passage Paul is referring to the ancient Jewish Law: Leviticus 18:22, the “abomination” of a man’s lying with another man. Paul sees male-male sex as an impurity, a taboo, uncleanness — in other words, “abomination.” Introducing this discussion in 1:24, he says so outright: "God gave them up … to impurity."
But Jesus taught lucidly that Jewish requirements for purity — varied cultural traditions — do not matter before God. What matters is purity of heart.
“It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles,” reads Matthew 15. “What comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles. For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.”
Or again, Jesus taught, “Everyone who looks at a women with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28). Jesus rejected the purity requirements of the Jewish Law.
In calling it unclean, Paul was not condemning male-male sex. He had terms to express condemnation. Before and after his section on sex, he used truly condemnatory terms: godless, evil, wicked or unjust, not to be done. But he never used ethical terms around that issue of sex.
As for marriage, again, the Bible is more liberal than we hear today. The Jewish patriarchs had many wives and concubines. David and Jonathan, Ruth and Naomi, and Daniel and the palace master were probably lovers.
The Bible’s Song of Songs is a paean to romantic love with no mention of children or a married couple. Jesus never mentioned same-sex behaviors, although he did heal the “servant” — pais, a Greek term for male lover — of the Roman Centurion.
Paul discouraged marriage because he believed the world would soon end. Still, he encouraged people with sexual needs to marry, and he never linked sex and procreation.
Were God-given reason to prevail, rather than knee-jerk religion, we would not be having a heated debate over gay marriage. “Liberty and justice for all,” marvel at the diversity of creation, welcome for one another: these, alas, are true biblical values.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 03:33 AM

I read most of that.. and it doesnt make any since to me could you explain in fewer details?
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 08:26 AM

Holy crap... Sorry, that's FAR to long for me to want to try to read. I can pretty much reassure you that, while I am not Christian, I have read a lot of the Bible. Fascinating how the interpretations can vary and how vague some things are (seriously, some of it illicits a "what? how the hell did anyone get from this point to THAT? What is wrong with them?"). I'm not saying anything is wrong with Christianity, I'm just saying that there are Biblical grounds to contest the whole homophobia nonsense
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 12:21 PM

Dont forget that the bible is just a book of fairy tales written thousands of years ago, that's it.

Like all other religions, it has been manipulated throughout the ages by various people. Its just a tool to control you.
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goblins Blade View Post
Dont forget that the bible is just a book of fairy tales written thousands of years ago, that's it.

Like all other religions, it has been manipulated throughout the ages by various people. Its just a tool to control you.
He's right.
God was created to help the authorities keep everybody in line. Just like Santa and the Easter bunny. You know, be good or Santa won't bring you presants, be good or the Easter Bunny won't bring you any chocolate eggs, and be good and do what we say or you won't go to heaven.
So anyone in the LGBT community shouldn't read too much into what the Bible says about who they are, because it was just a form of, rules I should say, for people to enforce years ago.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 08:07 PM

I personally think that people who take advice from a book that also says that snakes used to talk and walk are all a bit silly. The Bible has no relevance on LGBT issues.

Last edited by Daivia; May 20th 2012 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Grammar issues
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 08:38 PM

The Bible was recreated just like Jesus was. Jesus wouldn't have been white, like he is made out to be. The Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by other men and there is no such thing as "God wrote through them".


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 09:27 PM

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 09:41 PM

The Bible/Christian LOVE to make Jesus look like a Scandanavian.... Hate to agree with the obvious but Jesus would have had a higher percentage of popping out with dark skin hair and eyes. He would NOT have had blue eyes, but different countries will portray him looking like them (example, with south american characteristics).

There are a lot of contradictions in the Bible. Like God KILLED a bunch of children in Exodus and in NO WAY can I find that as justification for anything. You can't just come along and kill someones child as "punishment" that's horrible and disgusting and morally faulted.... AND even from Matthew to Mark to Luke, there are things they say, like they'll start 1 sentence the same and change the end of it or something and it's like uhhh are people incapable of realizing the differences? Sure, there are things worth an interest in religion and I LOVE learning about Christianity, but it is pretty much impossible to believe for me. And it is definitely not something you can use to take a lot of advice from. The Bible was written by men. End of story, thus, morals also come from man. I don't get my morals from the Bible cause it tells you A LOT of really flawed things (did you know paralytics and epileptics have demons in them? that's a damn joke if I ever heard one) and i'm not going to listen to it telling me to judge those who "aren't like everyone one else". If there IS a God, why did he make us all different if he is going to send people for hell for those differences?
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 10:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveee View Post
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
A. Define sexually immoral.
B. So the female prostitutes are A-OK?

Edit: C. Homosexual offenders? So, like... gay people who have committed crimes?


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 10:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveee View Post
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
EVERYONE sins. EVERYONE is wicked in some way. So I guess that means all of us are going to hell then, huh?

Homosexuality a sin? No. Not in the slightest. "Do not judge, so that you will not be judged."

"Love thy neighbor."

Gay people are born gay, and if god sends gays to hell for being the way he made them, then god is seriously messed up. I am a Christian, and a gay rights activist. God loves everyone. Gays included.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 20th 2012, 11:45 PM

"Let who has not sinned be the one to throw the first stone". Straight from the damn Bible. Everyone will walk away.
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 21st 2012, 01:14 AM

Hey.

Since this was more about the idea of religion than homosexuality, I've moved this thread here, where I feel it will fit better. If you disagree, PM me.

Oh. And please try to be civil towards each other.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 21st 2012, 03:27 AM

While I don't know my stance on this topic, I feel this is just another interpretation, and not a very satisfying one on that. It may satisfy someone new to this topic, but you can find rebuttals to everything he mentioned. In many cases, however, I don't think he responded(?) sufficiently to this issue. Mainly the Leviticus passages and Romans 1. Not to mention he missed a lot of common sense issues like G-D creating women to marry men. His treatment on marriage is also very typical. Paul didn't care for marriage, but G-D loves it. For someone living an ascetic life like Paul, non marriage makes sense. But, marriage is simply another ministry, its not less important than chastity.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 21st 2012, 09:46 PM

Thank you, Jaguar. I have never seen a better biblical explanation. It just goes to show that knowledge is the weapon of the hand that wields it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
While I don't know my stance on this topic, I feel this is just another interpretation, and not a very satisfying one on that. It may satisfy someone new to this topic, but you can find rebuttals to everything he mentioned. In many cases, however, I don't think he responded(?) sufficiently to this issue. Mainly the Leviticus passages and Romans 1. Not to mention he missed a lot of common sense issues like G-D creating women to marry men. His treatment on marriage is also very typical. Paul didn't care for marriage, but G-D loves it. For someone living an ascetic life like Paul, non marriage makes sense. But, marriage is simply another ministry, its not less important than chastity.
I don't understand what you mean by "someone new." Are you saying that everyone that agrees with the topic is not really familiar with it, or is "new" to it? And "new" to what? Please elaborate further.

Everything in regards to religious text is always interpretation. That's why there are so many christian factions- Bible, Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Unitarian, and many more. For example, Catholics disagree with Baptists, and Baptists do not consider Catholics not "true" christians. Why? It's all because of different interpretations.

In regards to your other points:

1) I say this to everyone who brings up the Leviticus verse: do YOU REALLY follow the rest of Leviticus? I'm betting you don't, nor do you really expect anyone to. If you did you would be in prison for a very, very long time. On top of which, the Old Testament in Genesis through Deuteronomy were not intended for Christians. It was the way for Jews to get to Heaven before Christ came to Earth and died for everyone's sins.

Also, he covered Romans, Chapter I.

2) What proof do you have that God loves marriage? Nowhere in the Bible does God say "I love marriage."

Adam and Eve were not "made" to be married. They were only "married" in the physical sense, i.e. they came from the same earth (the Bible is an extremely sexist book and frankly I don't believe a woman was made from the rib of a man). They were simply the first man and first woman created.

Marriage as you know it is not religious in origin. Marriage was a trade agreement. Women were property to be bargained for. It's right there in the Old Testament. A woman was sold, or "married," to a man for money, or livestock, or land, or other resources for her father. In return, the woman would bear him sons. The blessing of God was needed to ensure the benefit of both parties involved, i.e. the suitor and the girl's father.

In fact, love as a sole reason for marriage really only became popular in the 19th century in the Western Hemisphere.

So if God "made" men and women for marriage, why for most of human history were women more like common chattel than wives? And why was Paul one of Jesus' closest disciples if it was wrong for him to preach that marriage was not necessary?



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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 21st 2012, 10:08 PM

Paragraphs make reading fun. Just letting you know.

I think that people use the Bible to condemn homosexuality just so that they can enforce their own bigotry towards a set of people. When in reality they probably know that there's nothing wrong with them, they just enjoy ignorance and being hateful towards other people.

Many of the people who hate gay people (or are against it) don't even know about the issues regarding slavery in the Bible. Or they think that the flood was a good thing and don't realise how bad that would have been if it actually happened.

It's saddening. But eventually more people will learn that you can believe in God without being a massive dick towards other people.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 21st 2012, 10:54 PM

The whole thing with me is that just because it's in the bible doesn't mean it's right. Yes, I am a Christian, but I also have room for free thought. I know right from wrong, and my religion does not dictate everything I believe. I think it's a dangerous thing when you're willing to believe anything the bible says, if you don't have free thought then who are you, outside of organized religion? You're brainwashed. Even if the bible does say homosexuality is wrong, you should know in your mind that it's not right to criticize or judge other people's ways of life. And the bible definitely does not say to judge others, or to give them hell for being homosexual. It says to love others. If you're going to be a Christian and bash gays at the same time, you're a hypocrite.





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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 22nd 2012, 06:00 AM

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Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
Many of the people who hate gay people (or are against it) don't even know about the issues regarding slavery in the Bible. Or they think that the flood was a good thing and don't realise how bad that would have been if it actually happened.
Actually the flood did happen. It's recorded across cultures and its existence was scientifically determined and proven. It just depends on what you think happened during the flood, that's all.

I'm not sure that people ENJOY being ignorant and hateful. They really do think they are in the right. And if religion is an important part of their lives, they are going to stick closely to it.

Many christians believe the Bible is God's Word. They take it to be literally so, and understand the interpretation as they think they should, which in this case means condemning homosexuality as a sin. If it's in the Book, it must be truth. It's easy to focus on that and forget everything else, or surmise that everything else is suspended in light of an "unbreakable" law.

I myself don't agree. I take a different approach to the Bible. But I can understand where they come from.



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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 22nd 2012, 06:56 AM

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
Actually the flood did happen. It's recorded across cultures and its existence was scientifically determined and proven. It just depends on what you think happened during the flood, that's all.
[Citation needed]
____________________________________________

As far as stuff the bible actually says about homosexuality... Well, there's not actually that much that plainly discusses homosexuality. If you want to go by Leviticus, then football and shaving are just as sinful.
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 22nd 2012, 01:37 PM

Agreed. A reputable source of that information would be welcomed.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 22nd 2012, 03:52 PM

For those of you here who are saying that the bible has been changed/recreated/altered/revised....where did you get that information? I'm not being sarcastic; I'm seriously asking what your source of information is. Because the original bible scrolls dating back a few thousand years are still available, so I don't see how you think it could have been altered when the original still exists? If the writing on an approx. 3,000 year old piece of paper/fabric was suddenly changed, don't you think that change would be noticable?

Of course, I agree that certain bible translations have been altered and aren't accurate- but I don't agree that the original has been changed.

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Jesus wouldn't have been white, like he is made out to be.
The bible doesn't say that Jesus was white. I don't know if He was or not, but just remember that people saying Jesus was white doesn't make the bible wrong. If anything, it just makes the people who say that wrong. The bible doesn't say Jesus' skin color. It only says that He was born in Bethlehem, raised in Nazareth, and from a Jewish family.

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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 22nd 2012, 04:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Because the original bible scrolls dating back a few thousand years are still available, so I don't see how you think it could have been altered when the original still exists? If the writing on an approx. 3,000 year old piece of paper/fabric was suddenly changed, don't you think that change would be noticable?

Of course, I agree that certain bible translations have been altered and aren't accurate- but I don't agree that the original has been changed.
Your metaphor really doesn't work here. The Bible wasn't 'suddenly' changed- almost no one claims that.

As people copied the originals from the copies written by those with little to no understanding of the original language. The "tapestry" didn't suddenly change- copies of it were made, by people who were all different, who used different colors, different styles of needle work, and different cloth. Over time, the latest line of tapestries look somewhat different than the original.

Even if you don't buy that the original has been changed- which I don't think anyone claims, there are many Christians that maintain their translation is correct, like the King James Bible and the chick tracts for example. And of course the original had been translated, so the metaphorical tapestry had been copied over in a different language "color" entirely (actually multiple times, from Hebrew, Latin, English, back and forth, etc).
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 22nd 2012, 04:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post

The bible doesn't say that Jesus was white. I don't know if He was or not, but just remember that people saying Jesus was white doesn't make the bible wrong. If anything, it just makes the people who say that wrong. The bible doesn't say Jesus' skin color. It only says that He was born in Bethlehem, raised in Nazareth, and from a Jewish family.
I never said the Bible recreated jesus' looks. It's just fact. Jewish people, specially back then, would have looked a lot different from the white, brown hair, blue eyes type of portrait that the christian community and church paint him out to be.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 22nd 2012, 05:41 PM

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
Actually the flood did happen. It's recorded across cultures and its existence was scientifically determined and proven. It just depends on what you think happened during the flood, that's all.

I'm not sure that people ENJOY being ignorant and hateful. They really do think they are in the right. And if religion is an important part of their lives, they are going to stick closely to it.

Many christians believe the Bible is God's Word. They take it to be literally so, and understand the interpretation as they think they should, which in this case means condemning homosexuality as a sin. If it's in the Book, it must be truth. It's easy to focus on that and forget everything else, or surmise that everything else is suspended in light of an "unbreakable" law.

I myself don't agree. I take a different approach to the Bible. But I can understand where they come from.
I'd be happy for you to prove it. But right now, I have no reason to believe the flood actually took place.

People honestly do enjoy hating other people. I don't know how you can rationalise hating people that do nothing wrong to you. Even if they aren't, it doesn't mean I'll respect them for their actions. Many of them are grown adults and should be able to think for themselves a bit more. Anyway, I still don't understand why they don't promote everything else in the Old Testament along with the homosexuality stuff. You know, go big or go home.

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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 22nd 2012, 09:46 PM

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Originally Posted by chickenonsteroids View Post
I'd be happy for you to prove it. But right now, I have no reason to believe the flood actually took place.

People honestly do enjoy hating other people. I don't know how you can rationalise hating people that do nothing wrong to you. Even if they aren't, it doesn't mean I'll respect them for their actions. Many of them are grown adults and should be able to think for themselves a bit more. Anyway, I still don't understand why they don't promote everything else in the Old Testament along with the homosexuality stuff. You know, go big or go home.

Ps: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
I agree about the Old Testament part. That's the problem; many christians tend to pick and choose verses. As I was saying earlier, ANY verse in the Bible can be used to support whatever you want it to. I just note the inconsistencies here. If you will notice no one has yet responded to the disparity that many christians often quote from the Old Testament, but do not adhere to it.

As for the flood documentation there is apparently no straight answer. Apparently different scientists have different evidence to either prove or disprove the flood theory. It is still currently a topic of controversy among ALL scientists, not just those with a creationist or evolutionist bias.

What leads me to lean towards the fact that there was a physical flood of catastrophic proportions is its documentation among so many different cultures in so many different parts of the world who had absolutely no connection to one another.

Not every culture has recorded documents regarding a great flood, but many of them do, and many are Noah-esque in nature. This may largely be due to the importance of religion in understanding monumental events for millenia, and to this day in parts of the world with less resources, opportunities, education, and access to information. Many of them also mention a boat of some sort, and a good chunk of those mention landing on top of a mountain.

Once again, I don't think this is a literal story. It's presented in a way that people centuries ago could comprehend the teachings in the Bible. Widespread cultural records of a great flood, though, helps lead me to conclude that something like it did actually happen in the history of the Earth.



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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 22nd 2012, 11:21 PM

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
I don't understand what you mean by "someone new." Are you saying that everyone that agrees with the topic is not really familiar with it, or is "new" to it? And "new" to what? Please elaborate further.
New to the debate of homosexuality in the Bible. All this person did was rehash old arguments that have been refuted by other biblical scholars. He presents nothing new to the table, so, someone "new" might find this theology intriguing, but, as it is said, nothing is new under the Sun. Especially the arguments he has presented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
Everything in regards to religious text is always interpretation. That's why there are so many christian factions- Bible, Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Unitarian, and many more. For example, Catholics disagree with Baptists, and Baptists do not consider Catholics not "true" christians. Why? It's all because of different interpretations.
This was my point. The title of the thread is, "What the Bible really says..." My point, which was missed, was this isn't what the Bible REALLY says, it is just an interpretation of what the Bible says. It doesn't mean the person had valid points, but it doesn't, either, mean that he taught exactly what the Bible teaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
1) I say this to everyone who brings up the Leviticus verse: do YOU REALLY follow the rest of Leviticus? I'm betting you don't, nor do you really expect anyone to. If you did you would be in prison for a very, very long time. On top of which, the Old Testament in Genesis through Deuteronomy were not intended for Christians. It was the way for Jews to get to Heaven before Christ came to Earth and died for everyone's sins.
Sigh. I hear this argument often. The only thing that was overthrown in the Ot was the law. Even then, the Bible says we uphold the law because it brings a knowledge of sin. I don't follow Leviticus at all, because all the law has done is brought death to me through sin (Romans 7). But, this is missing the point entirely. If G-D's attitude toward homosexuality was AGAINST it, then G-D's attitude is STILL against it. I.E. the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill." Technically speaking, we can kill because we have been freed from the law. But, we don't because it displeases G-D, and other moral ramifications, of course.

So, it's not that Christianity presents a set of guidelines, it is that it has to do with the character and attributes of G-D. If G-D hates something, I'm not required to NOT do that, I have the freewill to do what G-D hates. However, I don't do what G-D hates because I love Him. I live in the life of the Spirit, not in the letter of the law. The Old Testament provides insight to what G-D loves and dislikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
Also, he covered Romans, Chapter I.
I didn't say he didn't. I just said it was unsatisfactory. I don't, honestly, feel the need to rebut anything, as I was just providing my feelings towards it. If people want to know what the Bible says, they won't listen to one theologian that agrees with them, while ignoring the rest. Chances are the OP didn't see to rebut this post, they probably just agreed with it and rested there. I don't know, I'm just saying so. And probably, likewise, with you. You probably said, "Oh, he refuted this passage." And you found it made you content. But, you probably didn't look for a refutation from various theologians on the topic. Something, I don't feel the need to do, simply because I'm not trying to be right. As I've said, I'm mixed on this topic. But, I encourage people to look up OTHER views, and refutations to what the OP said. Otherwise we just listen and agree with whatever it is we want to believe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
2) What proof do you have that God loves marriage? Nowhere in the Bible does God say "I love marriage."
Of course not in those words, but there are passages like Proverbs 18:22 which say that he who finds a wife finds a treasure and favor with G-D. Not to mention that Christ is married to the invisible Church. He says it is not good for man to be alone. Or Hebrews 13:4 which says let marriage be honored among all, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
Marriage as you know it is not religious in origin.
Actually, according to the Bible, it is. Whether or not you agree with the Bible is another topic entirely. Since we are discussing the Bible, in this case, it is a religious origin. It was started before the foundations of the world when Christ elected His church to be united to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
And why was Paul one of Jesus' closest disciples if it was wrong for him to preach that marriage was not necessary?
He wasn't a disciple. He was an apostle. And Peter was the closest disciple, who was married. I never said it was wrong to preach that marriage wasn't necessary. Only that it was a different ministry than marriage. There are ways a married couple can minister a single person cannot. Just as there are ways a single person can minister that a couple cannot.

Paul, also, in my view, wasn't infallible, not in His writings, either. Just because Paul wished people to be single, doesn't mean G-D wishes people to be single. Just like Paul had a sharp dissent with another Christian. G-D doesn't want disputes, but Paul had one, does that mean they're okay?


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 23rd 2012, 01:28 PM

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Originally Posted by ReluctantPegasister View Post


Your metaphor really doesn't work here. The Bible wasn't 'suddenly' changed- almost no one claims that.

As people copied the originals from the copies written by those with little to no understanding of the original language. The "tapestry" didn't suddenly change- copies of it were made, by people who were all different, who used different colors, different styles of needle work, and different cloth. Over time, the latest line of tapestries look somewhat different than the original.

Even if you don't buy that the original has been changed- which I don't think anyone claims, there are many Christians that maintain their translation is correct, like the King James Bible and the chick tracts for example. And of course the original had been translated, so the metaphorical tapestry had been copied over in a different language "color" entirely (actually multiple times, from Hebrew, Latin, English, back and forth, etc).
I'm not talking about the copies of the originals. I'm talking about the VERY originals- the ones directly written by Moses, David, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc. There are a few bibles available that translate straight from those, using the most advanced translating technology available today, and tell you right on each page if one of the words could possibly have more than one meaning. Some of them are even left choppy with weird grammar so they would stay extremely literal to how the original grammar was in that language.
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 23rd 2012, 02:08 PM

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I'm not talking about the copies of the originals. I'm talking about the VERY originals- the ones directly written by Moses, David, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc. There are a few bibles available that translate straight from those, using the most advanced translating technology available today, and tell you right on each page if one of the words could possibly have more than one meaning. Some of them are even left choppy with weird grammar so they would stay extremely literal to how the original grammar was in that language.
You really don't get it. Ok. As I said before, the originals were copied because that's how people rolled then. The Bibles we see now are not the newly translated ones "using the most advanced translating technology". They are copies of copies, that most Christians live their lives off of. I'm not sure why you more or less ignored my long, involved explanations as to why your tapestry metaphor is wrong, but I won't go back and forth with you if that is what you are going to do (although it's nothing less than I expected).
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 23rd 2012, 02:56 PM

I understood what you said.

The originals were copied, but here's why that doesn't matter: They have the originals, the exact copies of the originals in the same original language, AND the copies of the originals that were translated into other languages. When translating bibles today, they use ALL of them. And guess what? They all match up and say the same exact thing- word for word! The only thing is that the Dead Sea Scrolls have a few extra words added/removed...so in accurate bibles today, they put those parts in parenthesis so you know to take those parts with a grain of salt because we don't know if those were meant to be there or not. Otherwise, there is no way that anything could have been changed in copying, because they have the originals, the copies in the same original language, and the copies that were translated into other languages- and they all match up!

It also depends what translation you're using. For example, the King James Version was translated 400 years ago. So no, it's not translated with the best technology available today. It also was translated from the originals to old English, so it's hard to understand. New American Standard was translated about 50 years ago (and updated since then using even better technology) and translated from the original text to modern English, so it's accurate and readable. So, it really depends which translation you refer to. None of them are gramatically perfect, but there are a few translations that are accurate as far as what they say.
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 23rd 2012, 04:25 PM

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Originally Posted by daveee View Post
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Actually, daveee, the original world you bolded was a Greek word, arsenokoitai. Its original meaning is lost, but it had nothing to do with homosexuality.

The word "homosexual" was coined in 1869- well, that was when it was first used, anyway- so it couldn't have existed in biblical times.

Also, the 25 currently used translations of the Bible translate the Greek word very differently. And different sources say it could mean anything from abusive pedos to young boys used as sex slaves to male prostitues.

As a young Christian woman going to a pretty accepting church, I believe homosexuality is not a sin. Less than 1% of verses actually cover homosexuality. As far as I know of, only TWO verses out of the thousands in the Bible reference homosexuality, period: Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, the sin was not being hospitable to poor visitors to the town.

So... yeah. Your argument on that specific Bible excerpt, I feel, is ungrounded and inaccurate.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 23rd 2012, 05:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Roy-kun231 View Post
Actually, daveee, the original world you bolded was a Greek word, arsenokoitai. Its original meaning is lost, but it had nothing to do with homosexuality.

The word "homosexual" was coined in 1869- well, that was when it was first used, anyway- so it couldn't have existed in biblical times.

Also, the 25 currently used translations of the Bible translate the Greek word very differently. And different sources say it could mean anything from abusive pedos to young boys used as sex slaves to male prostitues.

As a young Christian woman going to a pretty accepting church, I believe homosexuality is not a sin. Less than 1% of verses actually cover homosexuality. As far as I know of, only TWO verses out of the thousands in the Bible reference homosexuality, period: Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, the sin was not being hospitable to poor visitors to the town.

So... yeah. Your argument on that specific Bible excerpt, I feel, is ungrounded and inaccurate.
A lot of claims with no source.

Please read:
http://thetruthsetsyoufree.wordpress...-arsenokoitai/

It is likely the word arsenokoitai was taken from Leviticus directly.


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 24th 2012, 01:23 AM

Okay, so I'm a christian, I however don't judge about people who are homosexual. Like the bible says, don't judge or you will be judge.

Also,
It never said he was white. In all reality he was probably super tan with a big beard. Just sayin'.



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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 24th 2012, 06:08 AM

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
A lot of claims with no source.

Please read:
http://thetruthsetsyoufree.wordpress...-arsenokoitai/

It is likely the word arsenokoitai was taken from Leviticus directly.
Arsenokoitai was not used by any other greek texts to describe homosexuals or lesbians, but rather shrine prostitution. Why would it be any different in 1 Corinthians? I realize that Paul was probably influenced by Leviticus, but there is really a lack of proof that "arsenos" and "koiten" in Leviticus were even used to describe homosexuals at all.

The link you provided was just speculation with no proof. It is quite possible that Paul was referring to shrine prostitution. Paul's readers had to know what he was talking about, and shrine prostitution was well known about in the first century. If Paul wanted to refer to homosexuals, he would have used androkoites.
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 24th 2012, 08:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Roy-kun231 View Post
As a young Christian woman going to a pretty accepting church, I believe homosexuality is not a sin. Less than 1% of verses actually cover homosexuality. As far as I know of, only TWO verses out of the thousands in the Bible reference homosexuality, period: Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, the sin was not being hospitable to poor visitors to the town.
First of all, there are more than two verses, as has been shown pretty clearly.

Second, I don't see what the 1% thing has to do with it being a sin or not. Bestiality and incest are referenced at about the same rate, perhaps a little less. Does that make both of those not sinful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy-kun231 View Post
Actually, daveee, the original world you bolded was a Greek word, arsenokoitai. Its original meaning is lost, but it had nothing to do with homosexuality.
Interesting that the original meaning has supposedly been lost (meaning we supposedly can't know what the author intended), but yet you can unequivocally say it had nothing to do with homosexuality. How can you say what it didn't mean if we apparently have no idea what it means?
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 25th 2012, 01:56 AM

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
Arsenokoitai was not used by any other greek texts to describe homosexuals or lesbians, but rather shrine prostitution. Why would it be any different in 1 Corinthians? I realize that Paul was probably influenced by Leviticus, but there is really a lack of proof that "arsenos" and "koiten" in Leviticus were even used to describe homosexuals at all.

The link you provided was just speculation with no proof. It is quite possible that Paul was referring to shrine prostitution. Paul's readers had to know what he was talking about, and shrine prostitution was well known about in the first century. If Paul wanted to refer to homosexuals, he would have used androkoites.
The thing is, Paul used a Greek translation of the Old Testament, since it was written in Hebrew. Man, in the Leviticus passage, in Greek is arseno, and the word for "lay" is koitai. So, Paul combined the words. I would say, then, it is more than likely Paul was using it to define homosexuality in this particular passage. I don't think it would be beyond a person familiar with Greek to put two-and-two together and figure out Paul's meaning.

However, I don't necessarily dissent with your view. This is why I am still mixed on the whole ordeal. I see both sides, and don't know what I make of it, yet.

Oh, and by the way, I believe 1 Corinthians uses another word. I think it is porneos (sp?).


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 25th 2012, 02:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
The thing is, Paul used a Greek translation of the Old Testament, since it was written in Hebrew. Man, in the Leviticus passage, in Greek is arseno, and the word for "lay" is koitai. So, Paul combined the words. I would say, then, it is more than likely Paul was using it to define homosexuality in this particular passage. I don't think it would be beyond a person familiar with Greek to put two-and-two together and figure out Paul's meaning.

However, I don't necessarily dissent with your view. This is why I am still mixed on the whole ordeal. I see both sides, and don't know what I make of it, yet.

Oh, and by the way, I believe 1 Corinthians uses another word. I think it is porneos (sp?).
Arsenokoites is a compound word. The definitions of compound words are not always equal to the sum of the two words. You are making assumptions without looking at the historical context. Arsenokoites hasn't been used within the first 600 years of the word's existence to describe homosexuality. Again, if Paul wanted to portray a homosexual, he likely would have picked a term that was simpler for others to understand, such as androkoites.

First Corinthians uses Arsenokoites, I think. Maybe the other term you're looking for is makolai.
   
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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - May 27th 2012, 04:40 PM

BigBL87: I don't believe ever stated beastality and incest were wrong, that would be modern society that made them wrong.

However if you have a verse feel free to share it, as I'm as good with the Bible as I wish I were.

Let's pretend homosexuality is a sin (It isn't) and West Borro Baptist Church was right, God hates "fags". Why would God create someone a certain way just to absolutely hate a crucial part of their personality? Why would he intentionally set them up to sin? He wouldn't. But even if he did all of that intentionally "he without sin throws the first stone." is a great line to use there.

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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - June 5th 2012, 10:19 AM

Actually the original scrolls have been discovered...and the match whet we have now....soooo no it was NOT manipulated, plus there is EVIDENCE that the stories in the bible actually happened

1) Noah's ark found on Mt.Ararat
2) Horse bones, armor and chariot wheels at the bottom of the red sea
3) The place of the skull (gulggolet) where Jesus was crucified
4) The ark of the covenant
5) the tomb where Jesus was buried (And DID rise again)


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Re: What the Bible really says about homosexuality - June 5th 2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebby312 View Post
Actually the original scrolls have been discovered...and the match whet we have now....soooo no it was NOT manipulated, plus there is EVIDENCE that the stories in the bible actually happened
The language in the scrolls is what matters, not the scrolls themselves. The translations are not really that easy. Look at the last couple of posts, and you'll see how a single word can change the meaning, and cause confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebby312 View Post
1) Noah's ark found on Mt.Ararat
Where is this ark? It doesn't exist. People have claimed to find Noah's ark, but carbon dating proves that it's from the wrong time period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebby312 View Post
2) Horse bones, armor and chariot wheels at the bottom of the red sea
This is an unproven claim. There's nothing else to say. It was even on snopes, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebby312 View Post
3) The place of the skull (gulggolet) where Jesus was crucified.
Lots of people were crucified in this way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebby312 View Post
5) the tomb where Jesus was buried (And DID rise again)
No credible scholar believes the claims made by the person who found the tomb. Speculation is not proof.
   
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