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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Post Athiesm vs Christianity - May 23rd 2012, 05:14 AM

Unless someone answers the following question, I will remain an atheist:


If God created the Universe, and thus everything in it, then what created God? God can't have created himself because he wouldn't of existed to create himself. If something else created God, then how was that created, etc. There must of been something in the beginning to create what created God, and until someone finds the answer, I will deny Christianity in my life, and my descendants lives.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 23rd 2012, 05:24 AM

Much as I share your sentiment, I would feel better if you said you were rejecting all religions... The Christian God is not the only God, don't cha know? xD

Also sadly you will most likely find you will have little to no control over what your descendants believe.
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 23rd 2012, 05:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantPegasister View Post
Much as I share your sentiment, I would feel better if you said you were rejecting all religions... The Christian God is not the only God, don't cha know? xD

Also sadly you will most likely find you will have little to no control over what your descendants believe.
1st paragraph: Good point, my mistake. Thank you for the correction.

2nd paragraph: Drat.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 23rd 2012, 05:51 AM

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Unless someone answers the following question, I will remain an atheist
No, you would continue to deny Christianity, which has no bearing on other religions, especially non-Abrahamic ones.

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Originally Posted by The Aecho View Post
If God created the Universe, and thus everything in it, then what created God? God can't have created himself because he wouldn't of existed to create himself.
The answer to your question is the premise of Christianity, which is god can do anything and everything regardless if it is outside the bounds of logic and human understanding. In simpler terms, according to the bible, god wasn't "made", he was always there.

The other answer is you're questioning ad infinitum, which is a dead end of questioning. No matter what the answer, the same question will be repeated and it goes nowhere.

When this happens, you should abandon it and try a different route, such as the paradox of god always being there and the supposed creation of time. The question is whether one was first. If time was first, then the premise of Christianity is false. If god was first, this begs the question how can the duration of god's existence be known without referring to time? It could show the premise is true. If they existed at the same moment in time, the premise is again false. This question has already been explored though but you can rationalize the conclusion.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 23rd 2012, 07:53 AM

This question is like asking a layman to explain how/why such a dense amount of matter came into existence, then expanded under so much pressure. You are posing a question to those that are mere followers, and not (seemingly) official advocates (by this, I mean that one can advocate something, but they cannot be a true advocate without a full comprehension of it, and do not have a title which implies full comprehension). We are, afterall, the beleagured young.

You won't receive your answer here. Go ask the Pope.

EDIT: By the last line, I was referring to an answer that could persuade you from atheism.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 23rd 2012, 08:24 AM

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Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
When this happens, you should abandon it and try a different route, such as the paradox of god always being there and the supposed creation of time. The question is whether one was first. If time was first, then the premise of Christianity is false. If god was first, this begs the question how can the duration of god's existence be known without referring to time? It could show the premise is true. If they existed at the same moment in time, the premise is again false. This question has already been explored though but you can rationalize the conclusion.
Very well said.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 23rd 2012, 10:30 AM

Before you get all in a hubbub, let me say I'm an atheist as well.

No one here is trying to convert you. So what's really the point, unless you're asking with an open and understanding mind? I also can't help but feel that you ask this with full knowledge that you won't receive a satisfactory answer. You have to understand that the religious have a different school of logic- what you and I and other atheists call ignorance, they call faith. Now, I'm not saying they are ignorant. All this says is that they are prepared to take a stance without any evidence or feel the need for empirical value in everything around them. And that's okay, really. Personally, I'd fight for their right to believe what they do, but I do also think it's good to question, like you (I think) are attempting to do. Remember though, there's a fine line between skepticism and cynicism.

I hope that made sense.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 23rd 2012, 05:19 PM

God wasn't created otherwise there would be something greater than god i.e his creator.

Secondly, god cannot begin either as he's outside of time he causes things to begin. There's no time reference to god. And 'god always being there' is just a language issue as there is very little way to imagine or think of god without referring to time. Since we need time to do things.

/crappy apologist mode

You spelt atheism wrong in the title. Just letting you know.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 24th 2012, 05:21 AM

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You have to understand that the religious have a different school of logic- what you and I and other atheists call ignorance, they call faith. Now, I'm not saying they are ignorant.
I would call them ignorant. They believe that some old guy, who is superior to humans, is floating above us in a bunch of clouds, who thinks to himself "Hmm...Perhaps he will die, and then that person will get a promotion, she will die of lung cancer", etc, etc.

What they believe in is a make-believe deity that someone made up so people would be manipulated into joining some sort of cult.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 24th 2012, 06:52 AM

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I would call them ignorant. They believe that some old guy, who is superior to humans, is floating above us in a bunch of clouds, who thinks to himself "Hmm...Perhaps he will die, and then that person will get a promotion, she will die of lung cancer", etc, etc.

What they believe in is a make-believe deity that someone made up so people would be manipulated into joining some sort of cult.
And this is the type of behaviour that perpetuates the conflict between the religious and the non-religious. You have to make sense of why they do believe, not of what they believe.

For instance, take the Higgs Boson. Godlike? Of course. Theoretical? Yes (well, hopefully not for long). Plausible? Yes. But the Higgs Boson is as omnipresent and omniscient as God supposedly is. So is it not possible that there can be something (as opposed to someone) that is behind everything, just as the Higgs Boson is pretty much behind the creation of the Universe and everything therein? Perhaps many Theists do not understand the theory, and even I certainly do not, even as a Atheist-realist (granted, I've not looked into it), of the Higgs Boson. As such, you cannot fully understand why people believe God exists without trying to comprehend why.

A theist may pose you this: I will become an Atheist if any single person can fully explain why and how the Higgs Boson exists with reference to fact, rather than theory.

Ask yourself how you would answer that.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 24th 2012, 07:04 AM

If god is real, then why do they 'believe' he is there? Wouldn't they know?
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 24th 2012, 02:07 PM

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If god is real, then why do they 'believe' he is there? Wouldn't they know?
Generally speaking, people who hear or see voices (even if they say it's God) aren't believed. Because in this modern era, we actually understand that hearing voices means something is wrong in the brain, not evidence of God.
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 24th 2012, 05:46 PM

Nothing/no one created God. He was and is and is to come. This is where faith comes in.




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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 25th 2012, 02:47 AM

The universe doesn't need a god to come into existence. Since causation is a time-bound concept, the beginning of the universe doesn't actually require a cause.
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 25th 2012, 07:03 AM

I'm an agnostic atheist, but I might be a deist.
How can we define time, really? Law of Relativity of Einstein depicts time so abstract, maybe in human psychology we capture "length of a period" and define it as time. But I don't think there's a actual "timeline of the universe" type of thing, just our perspective. I think time is more atom-based, and meaning that time can exist only where atom's exist, and of course, time was created when the first atom was made and that set forth "time".
What existed before that? Idk, you'd might say the past of the present event of the first atom being created, but to believe in that would to believe in eternity, and alot including myself would say eternity is impossible IN THIS UNIVERSE.

As for God, the only possible way he can exist in a place assuming eternity is true is if he is in a different dimension, he is born from a dimension so far-fetched we can't comprehend, and eventually creating something in our physics bounded universe from his own.
Kind of like how spirits exist if they do, they aren't of molecules or atoms, they are something though.

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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 25th 2012, 01:23 PM

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I'm an agnostic atheist, but I might be a deist.
How can we define time, really? Law of Relativity of Einstein depicts time so abstract, maybe in human psychology we capture "length of a period" and define it as time. But I don't think there's a actual "timeline of the universe" type of thing, just our perspective. I think time is more atom-based, and meaning that time can exist only where atom's exist, and of course, time was created when the first atom was made and that set forth "time".
What existed before that? Idk, you'd might say the past of the present event of the first atom being created, but to believe in that would to believe in eternity, and alot including myself would say eternity is impossible IN THIS UNIVERSE.

As for God, the only possible way he can exist in a place assuming eternity is true is if he is in a different dimension, he is born from a dimension so far-fetched we can't comprehend, and eventually creating something in our physics bounded universe from his own.
Kind of like how spirits exist if they do, they aren't of molecules or atoms, they are something though.
I see time as a mechanism of continuous change. If nothing is changing, time doesn't exist. I believe that time is NOT infinite in this universe, because I believe that this universe has a definite beginning.
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 25th 2012, 04:25 PM

I don't really see why this question matters. Whatever it comes down to, there was always something. Whether you believe in G-D or not, has no bearing on that truth. G-D is simply one way people choose to answer that something. It is better to pose the question, why does ANYTHING exist at all? Including existence.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 25th 2012, 05:31 PM

I personally prefer not getting involved in these, as I see no point arguing over something that literally cannot be proven/disproven. People have a set in stone mindset going into these and pull out absolutely nothing from the experience of debates.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 26th 2012, 04:22 PM

As far as we Christians know, nothing created God. He's always been. It's not something scientifically explainable, but Isaiah 55:9 says that God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts...so it makes sense that we aren't able to comprehend everything about His existance.

I have a serious question for you. Not to fight or to debate, but to see if you've ever thought about this: You don't think you can believe in God because it requires believing that He is just magically there with no beginning and no explanation, right? Well if you're an atheist and believe that the universe wasn't created by God, doesn't that also require believing that there was no beginning and something has just always existed? Because the universe had to be created from some form of matter, and that matter had to come from something, which had to come from something else, etc. etc. etc. ....There ALWAYS had to be SOMETHING there in order for our universe to have formed, right? So, whether you're an atheist or a Christian or another religion, you pretty much have to agree that there IS something out there that has no beginning. So you just have to decide whether you believe that thing is God.

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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 27th 2012, 07:24 AM

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As far as we Christians know, nothing created God. He's always been. It's not something scientifically explainable, but Isaiah 55:9 says that God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts...so it makes sense that we aren't able to comprehend everything about His existance.

I have a serious question for you. Not to fight or to debate, but to see if you've ever thought about this: You don't think you can believe in God because it requires believing that He is just magically there with no beginning and no explanation, right? Well if you're an atheist and believe that the universe wasn't created by God, doesn't that also require believing that there was no beginning and something has just always existed? Because the universe had to be created from some form of matter, and that matter had to come from something, which had to come from something else, etc. etc. etc. ....There ALWAYS had to be SOMETHING there in order for our universe to have formed, right? So, whether you're an atheist or a Christian or another religion, you pretty much have to agree that there IS something out there that has no beginning. So you just have to decide whether you believe that thing is God.

On a side note, if you ever want to know more about Jesus, feel free to private message me or go to www.themostimportantthing.webs.com and click on "Why do I need Jesus?".
Not particularly true. All Atheists believe something different, and everyone must comprehend that something cannot JUST exist; everything has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Nothing can just be, no matter what you think. The Universe as we know it, many Atheists believe, began at the Big Bang. What came before that is a matter of conjecture - a Universe that existed previously, that began rapidly retracted into a very, very dense matter. What came before that? No one can really know. Perhaps someday in the very far future, we can know. Perhaps the Universe was created by someone, but that's more improbable than a logically drawn conclusion that a Universe existed previous to the one we know it as. Most Atheists make the choice: which is more probable, hence more likely, and therefore more believable?

Other Atheists just don't care.

We can never really trace what occurred in the beginning. How? What? When? Why? This is the point where many may point to logical design, but not many subscribe to the same notions as current religions do. Atheists tend to concede that something occurred in the beginning, regardless of how it occurred - before the beginning of the universe as we know it to exist.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 27th 2012, 04:28 PM

My point is that since matter can't come from non-matter, it's not possible that there was ever a beginning...because what created that? I'm not saying there was or wasn't a beginning to our realm in particular...but it's not scientifically possible that there was a beginning to everything. There has always had to be something....so God having no beginning isn't a logical reason to not believe in Him, because scientifically speaking, there can't be a beginning.
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 27th 2012, 05:50 PM

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My point is that since matter can't come from non-matter, it's not possible that there was ever a beginning...because what created that?.
Why can't it? Why can't it become non-matter? Your God can be everywhere at once, why can't non-matter become matter or vice versa?
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 27th 2012, 08:56 PM

I'm saying scientifically it can't. Based on science, matter can't come from non-matter. If you choose to believe that some kind of magic happened that made matter appear from nothing, then fine, but that's not any more scientifically possible than the theory that God created the universe. Both require believing in a supernatural event that goes against science occuring in order for us to be here today. That's my point.

From there, it's up to you to decide if you believe that was done on purpose by God, by a god/supernatural being of another religion, or if magic just happened all on it's own without any source. I've made my choice.

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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 27th 2012, 10:25 PM

Megan, you know I am not out to get you, as I am a Christian myself. However, Scientists can currently create matter out of photons which is a form of energy. So, technically, non-matter can become matter, and can be proven to be done.

Any explanation for the origin of our Universe is equally irrational as G-D. I'm sorry, but this is the truth. And, I am a believer in the Christian G-D, you know this.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 28th 2012, 01:49 AM

Yes, but photons are something, which have to either come from something or have been there forever. And same with whatever they came from and so on. However, I do completely agree that it's pointless to try to explain creation since that's impossible to fully comprehend and it takes faith to believe in God no matter how much proof you have. I just want the OP to know that the thing they disagree with in Christianity (something having no beginning) also exists with Atheism. And I know you're not out to get me I understand what you're saying and for the most part I agree.

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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 28th 2012, 03:08 AM

As already said, this question is asked quite poorly, since it assumes there is no other religion besides Christianity. There are many religions that have one monotheistic god and have the same problem, so you're pretty much only picking on Christianity when the rest are just as dumb (in our atheistic opinion). There are also many questions not answered by not believing in a god either, no matter what, there are some questions that cannot be answered in life.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 28th 2012, 06:56 AM

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Yes, but photons are something, which have to either come from something or have been there forever. And same with whatever they came from and so on. However, I do completely agree that it's pointless to try to explain creation since that's impossible to fully comprehend and it takes faith to believe in God no matter how much proof you have. I just want the OP to know that the thing they disagree with in Christianity (something having no beginning) also exists with Atheism. And I know you're not out to get me I understand what you're saying and for the most part I agree.
You can't realistically use the "infinte regress" argument with photons. Photons are light energy that do usually have a known, traceable source- the sun is one great example. There is a realistic, casual chain of events to allow a photon to come into "existence."


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 28th 2012, 08:50 AM

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Yes, but photons are something, which have to either come from something or have been there forever. And same with whatever they came from and so on. However, I do completely agree that it's pointless to try to explain creation since that's impossible to fully comprehend and it takes faith to believe in God no matter how much proof you have. I just want the OP to know that the thing they disagree with in Christianity (something having no beginning) also exists with Atheism. And I know you're not out to get me I understand what you're saying and for the most part I agree.
A few minutes on Google would tell you photons have a known source. Your ad infinitum argument only works for specific topics, it cannot be applied universally. Do a bit of research on a topic before trying to use it as an analogy.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 28th 2012, 02:57 PM

I didn't say that photons didn't have a source. I said they either have been around forever or came from something else...and that if they did come from something else, whatever they came from had to come from something, which had to come from something, and so on forever; meaning that there couldn't have been a beginning.

Everything had to either have been made by something (energy is something) or had to have been around forever. If it was created by something, the thing it was created from also had to be made by something- which starts a never-beginning cycle since there can't be a first thing that started it all, because that thing had to come from somewhere too. Or if you believe that it's been around forever, then there's your proof that there is no beginning. Either way that you go, there is no beginning.

My point is that since it's provable that there is no beginning, God having no beginning is not a logical reason to not believe in Him. I know that no amount of proof can turn someone into a Christian or make them believe in God, because only faith can do that. However, my goal here is not to prove to you all that there is a God. My goal in posting in this thread is simply to prove to you that it isn't any more scientifically impossible than the various atheist beliefs about creation. From there, you have to decide by faith which one you believe.

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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 28th 2012, 05:36 PM

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I didn't say that photons didn't have a source. I said they either have been around forever or came from something else...and that if they did come from something else, whatever they came from had to come from something, which had to come from something, and so on forever. There still can't be a beginning, because what created that? Energy? Well where did that energy come from? And where did that thing come from?
Nobody stated photons have no source, I'm not sure where you got that from. Instead, Toz and myself stated you're using the ad infinitum argument. The problem with that argument is when there is a known source, the argument ends. Alternatively, it simply becomes a line of asking the same question over and over.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
scientifically there is no beginning
...
the fact that there is no beginning can pretty much be proven
If there is no beginning according to science, then why are there development of theories that attempt to uncover the beginning? What is this "proof" because it's news to me. If you're referring to the beginning of life on this planet, then that has been shown repeatedly via Louis Pasteur.

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My point here is just to say that God having no beginning isn't a logical reason to not believe in Him
If I understand this correctly, you're stating the OP's ad infinitum argument is, for lack of a better term, nonsense whereas your ad infinitum argument is sensible?


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 28th 2012, 06:40 PM

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Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
Nobody stated photons have no source, I'm not sure where you got that from. Instead, Toz and myself stated you're using the ad infinitum argument. The problem with that argument is when there is a known source, the argument ends. Alternatively, it simply becomes a line of asking the same question over and over.



If there is no beginning according to science, then why are there development of theories that attempt to uncover the beginning? What is this "proof" because it's news to me. If you're referring to the beginning of life on this planet, then that has been shown repeatedly via Louis Pasteur.



If I understand this correctly, you're stating the OP's ad infinitum argument is, for lack of a better term, nonsense whereas your ad infinitum argument is sensible?
Exactly, it IS asking the same question over and over again! That's exactly why it can't start somewhere, because there's always another "where did that thing come from" after that. It has to go on forever and never begin; that's the whole point!

I'm not talking about just the beginning of life on this planet. I'm talking about the beginning of EVERYTHING. Scientists can try to uncover the beginning of everything, but it's pretty much impossible because they can't find something and say "this started everything!", because again, what created that thing then? Eventually, after going on and on and back farther and farther, they would still not be able to find the beginning. There can't be one, because then where did that come from? That's the proof that there's no beginning- that when you find the "beginning", you can still go back farther.

No, I wasn't trying to prove that the OP's beliefs are nonsense and mine aren't. Of course, I do believe that Christianity is right and Atheism is not, but that wasn't what I was trying to say here. I was trying to prove that God being infinite isn't an less rational than just a bunch of things existing with no creator- because that also has to be infinite.
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 28th 2012, 09:28 PM

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Exactly, it IS asking the same question over and over again! That's exactly why it can't start somewhere, because there's always another "where did that thing come from" after that. It has to go on forever and never begin; that's the whole point!

I'm not talking about just the beginning of life on this planet. I'm talking about the beginning of EVERYTHING. Scientists can try to uncover the beginning of everything, but it's pretty much impossible because they can't find something and say "this started everything!", because again, what created that thing then? Eventually, after going on and on and back farther and farther, they would still not be able to find the beginning. There can't be one, because then where did that come from? That's the proof that there's no beginning- that when you find the "beginning", you can still go back farther.

No, I wasn't trying to prove that the OP's beliefs are nonsense and mine aren't. Of course, I do believe that Christianity is right and Atheism is not, but that wasn't what I was trying to say here. I was trying to prove that God being infinite isn't an less rational than just a bunch of things existing with no creator- because that also has to be infinite.
If both are equally fallacious, then what makes God a more plausible option?


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 29th 2012, 01:49 AM

Based on science, they are both equally possible (that was my whole point). It's by faith that I made my choice between the two.
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 29th 2012, 02:24 AM

Because in the arena of faith vs science, it has SO much better a track record, right?


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 29th 2012, 06:32 AM

No one can answer that question. Even if someone did answer it, there'd still be doubt. Congratulations...you're still an Atheist.
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 29th 2012, 06:49 PM

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Because in the arena of faith vs science, it has SO much better a track record, right?
Based on science, neither option would really make sense. Our two options are either: there's no beginning just because, or there's no beginning because of something supernatural (such as God). Those are the only two options. Neither are supported by science, so either one requires faith to believe (and we know that one of those two has to be right, because what other options are there?). So, no matter what you believe about creation, you are believing by faith. Even if you believe in something like the big bang, that still requires believing that there was no beginning...because what created the big bang? And what created that thing (or energy or whatever)? And what created that? etc.

I've had to say this three times now, but I didn't post in this thread to try to prove God. I posted here to prove that there can't be a beginning, because what created that? So, God having no beginning is not a reason to not believe in God- because none of your atheist theories can explain that there can be a beginning either. I'm here right now to talk about why there can't be a beginning, not to try to prove my faith....because the whole point of faith is believing without proof.

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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 29th 2012, 08:19 PM

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I've had to say this three times now, but I didn't post in this thread to try to prove God. I posted here to prove that there can't be a beginning, because what created that? So, God having no beginning is not a reason to not believe in God- because none of your atheist theories can explain that there can be a beginning either.
It doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's complete nonsense as you're basing it on unfounded and faulty premises. You asked what caused the Big Bang, however, had you looked on Google or even Wikipedia for a few seconds, you would notice there are 2 other theories: The Big Crunch as an attempt to explain what caused the Big Bang and String or M-theory, which suggests there are multiple "branes". I'm not going to explain all of it because I don't understand all of it but you can browse through it yourself.

What is this dribble about, "atheist theories"? You're operating on the bullshit premise that atheism is rooted and relies on science. I don't know where you got that idea given it's been dismissed numerous times in different TH threads I'm pretty sure you were part of.

If you want to talk about why there cant be a beginning, then at least do some research on the topics you're trying to refute, otherwise it's a wall of meaningless text. Refute the big bang, big crunch, m and string theories, as well as any other theories you feel are pertinent.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 29th 2012, 08:30 PM

You're right that I don't know much about the big bang, the big crunch, M-theory, and all of that. However, without knowing anything about it, I know for fact that if the big bang would have happened (hypothetically, I don't believe in it), it had to be caused by something. I also know for fact that whatever caused it would have had to be caused by something, and so on forever. I don't need research to know that much.
   
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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 29th 2012, 08:47 PM

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No one can answer that question. Even if someone did answer it, there'd still be doubt. Congratulations...you're still an Atheist.
*raises hand.

Right here! I have an answer!

2500 years ago, we didn't understand the concept of lightning and thunder. Such things were larger and more complex than anything we could have fathomed. It HAD to be the gods! Obviously, Thor was striking his anvil, or Zeus was displeased with his sacrifices that harvest. Then, we found out the scientific answer: For your reading pleasure.

Fast forward till the last two hundred years. We have doubts about how our species came into being. Must have been God, right? Genesis tells us so. But, in steps science and rational thought, and what happens? We find out that we all evolved from a single common ancestor, and a series of slow, successive changes brought us to where we are today. Isn't it so much more fulfilling to be the scion of millions and millions of years of fighting and adaptation, than to fool yourself and think we're the result of some divine creator? And even then, one who designed us inefficiently and without any real show of design skill?

See the trend?



Quote:
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You're right that I don't know much about the big bang, the big crunch, M-theory, and all of that. However, without knowing anything about it, I know for fact that if the big bang would have happened (hypothetically, I don't believe in it), it had to be caused by something. I also know for fact that whatever caused it would have had to be caused by something, and so on forever. I don't need research to know that much.
So, because we don't know now, the de facto answer is God?

And you are mistaken about the big bang- it doesn't say the universe was created in an instant moment. It says matter was composed in an instantaneous outward expansion.
I suggest you read this wonderful piece on the subject. It addresses your claims.


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Re: Athiesm vs Christianity - May 29th 2012, 10:30 PM

Where did I say that the big bang says the universe was created in an instant moment? I didn't, and either way it still had to be caused by something. You don't need research to know that much.
   
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