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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 08:08 PM

Do you believe in hell, and if not, how sure are you? Do you believe Jesus Christ when he says that unrepentant sinners will end up in hell?

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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 08:23 PM

I'm beyond 99% there is no hell. Even if you could prove Jesus actually said that, you would still have to prove that he wasn't crazy or lying and that he was indeed the son of God and even then that wouldn't prove hell exists. And if you could prove hell exists, you'd still have to prove which God, which hell, and for which sins.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 08:54 PM

I actually don't particularly care if Hell exists or not. I believe in living your life for your life, not worrying about your death. Worry about the effects your choices make on your and others LIVES not an afterlife you aren't 100% sure exists.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 09:12 PM

I don't. It's biologically impossible, chemically impossible, and physically impossible. Nerves respond with pain, and if the nerve constantly receives pain, it's tolerance level will rise to a point where you wouldn't feel anything. Assuming the nerve's don't burn off or regenerate, which is also impossible. Regeneration to the point where the skin heals what's burned off per second is also impossible. You'd burn over a trillion cells and to be able to divide your cells a trillion times to heal your damaged skin will kill you, you'd be a millennium old.
Another point is that you can't regenerate intensely damaged scars. So hell must change the properties of biology alot for it to be possible, and in turn, change the properties of atoms and molecules because human's are trillions of molecules.

Fire can't be eternal also. It end's when there is no more oxygen in the air (I think), and it's waste product would be co2. Hell would be filled with CO2 which would kill us before the fire kills us.

There is no possible world that could make hell. (A world of atoms, carbon, hydrogen, etc. The elements that are the foundation of the universe).

Even if there was a dimension or alternate universe in which it has a bunch of different atoms that create the universe (which is impossible, the elements that make the universe have properties so essential to sustain the universe), humans are made of specific elements (organic compounds) that would instantly crumble in this new dimension.

However, when speaking about different dimensions or greater beings, you can't really say anything. That greater being might be able to switch things around, (Even if it's not abrahamic god, but a Deist god).

It's very impossible.
But if a greater thing exists, particularly the creator of the first atoms, the designer of all from fro to fro, anything's possible.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 09:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
Do you believe in hell, and if not, how sure are you? Do you believe Jesus Christ when he says that unrepentant sinners will end up in hell?

Thanks
It depends how you define Hell. However, assuming you mean the "Christian" version of it, I see no physical evidence to believe in Hell. So, in that regard, no, I don't believe in Hell.

When I was a Christian, I believed in Hell until I began to stray away from the tradition of the Church. At that point I became an annihilationist as I believed it suited the character of god more properly, and also fit the biblical perspective (and I found that I wasn't the only Christian who took this view, many in the early Church taught the annihilation perspective, not to mention the entire Old Testament). That is, the wages of sin is death, the wicked will be destroyed by god, etc. not tormented forever. And even the word forever, which is used in some of these passages, means "for an age." Once you start studying the issue in more detail, the whole idea of Hell is entirely unbiblical. Look up annihilationism. You'll see it makes more sense.

Regardless of all this, as I've said, there is no reason for me to believe in Hell because I see no physical evidence of it, and I think the bible can be relatively disproven as non-factual and solely a fictional collection of religious texts. That being said, of course, I don't know there is no hell. I just don't see any reason to believe in it.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 09:40 PM

There have been many people--even former atheists, who have seen hell after death--only the Biblical hell. I can provide the links if needed.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 09:48 PM

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There have been many people--even former atheists, who have seen hell after death--only the Biblical hell. I can provide the links if needed.
Eyewitnesses don't matter when it comes to science. It must be able to be tempered with, experimented with, and observable by everyone. In other words, EVERYONE would have to see the biblical Hell, and it would have to be experimented and tempered with to be sure that we all saw the Biblical Hell. Even if we all just saw it, it still wouldn't be enough. But, we would be making progress.

I've talked to someone who saw a ghost, her boyfriend was there with her who saw the ghost. I don't believe they saw a ghost. Do you?

This video applies to those people who have "seen" Hell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xag3oOzvU68


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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 09:53 PM

There are a few verses in the bible on hell, most in Psalms if I remember correctly.

I don't know if I believe in hell, mainly because God didn't send Satan to hell, he sent Satan to earth. If he resides here, then how is their a hell? Wouldn't this be hell?

Jay.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 09:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Hope To Cope View Post
There are a few verses in the bible on hell, most in Psalms if I remember correctly.

I don't know if I believe in hell, mainly because God didn't send Satan to hell, he sent Satan to earth. If he resides here, then how is their a hell? Wouldn't this be hell?

Jay.
Correctly translated, there is absolutely no mention of Hell in the Old Testament. Use a concordance and you'll see what I mean.

See this:
http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/


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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 10:08 PM

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Correctly translated, there is absolutely no mention of Hell in the Old Testament. Use a concordance and you'll see what I mean.

See this:
http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/
Not true. I've studied this and this isn't the case. And science cannot prove everything. Eye-witnesses count as evidence, if people around the world report the same thing. If not then provide your evidence.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 14th 2012, 10:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Correctly translated, there is absolutely no mention of Hell in the Old Testament. Use a concordance and you'll see what I mean.

See this:
http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/
I can't read the link but I googled it and am reading it.
It's interesting stuff. I'm curious as to see what others believe. I wish Theology went more into other concepts other than Christian so I could characterise the difference and similiarites.

Jay.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 12:34 AM

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Not true. I've studied this and this isn't the case. And science cannot prove everything. Eye-witnesses count as evidence, if people around the world report the same thing. If not then provide your evidence.
No, all it proves is that they MAY have saw something which had the characteristics of Hell. It doesn't make it the Biblical Hell, and science doesn't attempt to prove anything. It seeks to understand things through evidence and gains supports through theories based on the facts examined.

Several people witnessing a Hell isn't sufficient for evidence. Do you believe in ghosts or aliens? Many people claim to have seen those, yet I'm willing to bet you don't believe in either. Eye-witnesses aren't evidence, they're relative and aren't falsifiable. For something to be discovered as truth, it must be falsifiable. It must be able to be examined. It must be able to be tested.

The reason why we don't believe in aliens is because we don't have any proof of their existence. We have eye-witnesses, but no proof. No sample. No alien DNA. No alien rocket fuel. No specimens. Nothing. Of course there is more compiling evidence to support the existence of aliens.

However, let me ask you, so many people claim that they can hear god. If Christianity is the ONLY true religion, then what are all these other people hearing? You don't know because it's relative. Likewise, just because people see something, it isn't enough to prove anything. It counts as nothing. Maybe in the court of law it counts for something, but law is based on philosophy, not facts. In this case, it would make sense that philosophically Hell could potentially exist, but there is no empirical evidence, nor really reason to believe it. And if you think eye-witness counts as something that you mind as well believe in Nessy, Big foot, Aliens, Allah, Zeus, Thor, and the great Juju up the mountain.

Lastly, you've provided no context, no sites, no sources, nothing which show me what you've studied. So I don't really understand how you expect me to take your word for it. Then again, you take everyone's word that there is a hell simply because they had a vision. Sorry, I'm not that gullible.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 01:21 AM

So are you only asking us to tell you if a hell exists or not so that you can tell us that it exists with very little evidence or sources to support it? Just near-death experiences? Because that what it seems like to me. And near death experiences don't confirm it as a BIBLICAL Hell, just a hell, and just because an atheist experiences this does not confirm that "hey, even if you deny it you're still going to find out it exists that in fact, your wrong and I'm right haha". Christianity is NOT the only perfectly legitimate religion out there and it's rather closeminded to presume it's the only option. You don't seem interested in hearing and learning other peoples beliefs in this care, instead you are just contradicting our beliefs.
There is actually no mention of a hell in the Bible, as far as I know hell was brought into Christian theology from Pagan religions (Greek paganism had Hades for example) none of which are actually "hell" and are more of an afterlife or a pre-afterlife location, though I think some places in the mythological version of Hades includes fire but again depends on the location there but I don't recall it necessarily being a punishment (again, it's been a while since I read Greek mythology). And Satan was sent to earth, not to hell. Jews do not believe in hell last I checked because it was not part of the Old Testament. While I don't recall coming across it in the new testament either I think hell was brought into Christianity as a result of the interactions with pagan religions in Rome (or roman-controlled places) and Greece, which was NOT the same as the interaction that the Jewish faith experienced because Christians were bringing in Gentiles (or other non-Christians) where as being Jewish is more by birth right, there isn't the same degree of conversion, so the early Christian church made a few adaptations because of the culture of the Romans especially.
And in case it isn't obvious yet I, in fact, do not believe it is possible for hell to exist. Even if you want to ignore the scientific impossibility of the existence of hell, which would be my usual angle, it is not well founded Biblically as I already explained. And since the Biblical hell seems to be what you are concerned with I'll stick with that. In fact, you'll find most religions with the exceptions of pagan ones do not have a hell. You stay on earth if you are not worthy of heaven. The incentive to "be good" is to go to heaven. To do otherwise is to simply not go there. In religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism you are just reborn until you're karma is at a state to hit moksa (enlightenment) then you go to nirvana. In Judaism you go to heaven... Or you don't. I think that the insertion of hell into Christianity was partially to answer the "where do I go if I don't go to hell?" because I think people believe in the soul, so it is hard to explain where your soul is if it isn't in heaven and the body holding the soul on earth is dead. I can see how that is a conundrum, but who's to say that the soul doesn't simply cease to exist if it is not worthy of heaven? But that can further the conundrum for Christians--if a "bad" soul can cease to exist after it's body is dead how does that stop a "good" persons soul from ceasing to exist? I think you can find the answer THERE in revelations--all the people rise with the return of Jesus and are given the option to follow him or the anti-Christ, and that would suggest that they are "somewhere" and just aren't any where yet and you get to choose whether you want to go with Jesus (perhaps under a new name) or the anti-Christ and THEN you go to a lake of fire. Now I can see the eternal-burning aspect of hell in this, but really no one says it is hell, it's just a lake of fire, which implies a pretty quick (but shitty) end to all bad things. There would be no need for a hell once you get to revelations because the lake of fire would destroy all sinners. So hell is not needed because everyone will be asked to repent during the apocalypse and those who did not go to heaven will get a second chance.




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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 02:45 AM

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No, all it proves is that they MAY have saw something which had the characteristics of Hell. It doesn't make it the Biblical Hell, and science doesn't attempt to prove anything. It seeks to understand things through evidence and gains supports through theories based on the facts examined.

Several people witnessing a Hell isn't sufficient for evidence. Do you believe in ghosts or aliens? Many people claim to have seen those, yet I'm willing to bet you don't believe in either. Eye-witnesses aren't evidence, they're relative and aren't falsifiable. For something to be discovered as truth, it must be falsifiable. It must be able to be examined. It must be able to be tested.

The reason why we don't believe in aliens is because we don't have any proof of their existence. We have eye-witnesses, but no proof. No sample. No alien DNA. No alien rocket fuel. No specimens. Nothing. Of course there is more compiling evidence to support the existence of aliens.

However, let me ask you, so many people claim that they can hear god. If Christianity is the ONLY true religion, then what are all these other people hearing? You don't know because it's relative. Likewise, just because people see something, it isn't enough to prove anything. It counts as nothing. Maybe in the court of law it counts for something, but law is based on philosophy, not facts. In this case, it would make sense that philosophically Hell could potentially exist, but there is no empirical evidence, nor really reason to believe it. And if you think eye-witness counts as something that you mind as well believe in Nessy, Big foot, Aliens, Allah, Zeus, Thor, and the great Juju up the mountain.

Lastly, you've provided no context, no sites, no sources, nothing which show me what you've studied. So I don't really understand how you expect me to take your word for it. Then again, you take everyone's word that there is a hell simply because they had a vision. Sorry, I'm not that gullible.
When it comes to aliens, people mostly report seeing flying objects, not aliens. However, every life after death experience I have listened to regarding hell, every one claimed to have gone to the Biblical hell. I've never heard someone claiming that they went to the hell of Allah, or Zeus, or Thor.

Therefore your arguments are not valid. Multiple testimonies of the same experience does count as evidence. To say that in order for something to be true, it has to be examined scientifically under a microscope, is foolish and narrow-minded. In a court of law, the judge doesn't demand such narrow-minded evidence for something to be true, he will accept eye witnesses that show themselves to be trustworthy.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 03:35 AM

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When it comes to aliens, people mostly report seeing flying objects, not aliens. However, every life after death experience I have listened to regarding hell, every one claimed to have gone to the Biblical hell. I've never heard someone claiming that they went to the hell of Allah, or Zeus, or Thor.
How do they know it was the Biblical one? Have they experienced other ones? Did god speak to them and say, "You're in the biblical hell." As aforementioned, Hell, a place of eternal conscious torment, is not in the Bible, so wherever they went certainly could not have been biblical. Even if you take all instances where the New Testament speaks of a place for non-believers, it's VERY vague, so to claim they went to the biblical Hell is pure non-sense.

Also, this isn't true. Many people claim to have been abducted, all of their stories are similar. The same is true with ghosts. Everyone has a similar story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen100 View Post
Therefore your arguments are not valid. Multiple testimonies of the same experience does count as evidence. To say that in order for something to be true, it has to be examined scientifically under a microscope, is foolish and narrow-minded. In a court of law, the judge doesn't demand such narrow-minded evidence for something to be true, he will accept eye witnesses that show themselves to be trustworthy.
I didn't say it had to be examined under a microscope. And again, as mentioned before, the court of law is based on philosophy, not evidence. Just because someone testifies to something doesn't make it true.

In fact, even in the court of law, Judges often consider eyewitnesses to be one of the most unreliable sources which is why there are things like forensics. In fact, let me quote Leo and Cramer's Problems and Materials on Trial Advocacy: (this is a book used in many Law schools)
Eyewitness testimony is, at best, evidence of what the witness believes to have occurred. It may or may not tell what actually happened. The familiar problems of perception, of gauging time, speed, height, weight, of accurate identification of persons accused of crime all contribute to making honest testimony something less than completely credible.
Hell, I even give you links to more information on eye witnesses:
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-fallibil...62.html?cat=72
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...esses-in-the-z
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resource...essmemory.html
http://www.simplypsychology.org/eyew...testimony.html
http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr06/eyewitness.aspx
http://theweek.com/article/index/221...iable-to-trust

Need I go on?

I'm sorry but other than saying, "my arguments aren't valid," I don't feel you've provided anything sufficient to sway anyone's mind. You haven't provided any arguments or actual proof other than just denying everything I've said. If anyone is closed-minded it's you. I don't consider myself closed-minded, I just don't make ridiculous claims that there is a Hell and choose to believe in it, solely because someone said there is one. If thinking is being closed-minded, well, then, guilty as charged. I guess society got to advance to where it is because of a bunch of closed-minded people.

Like I said, I don't believe in aliens, or ghosts, or anything supernatural. Though I believe all of them are possible, there is just no evidence. And no eyewitness could change my mind. Why? Because it's incredibly relative and completely unreliable and unscientific. It doesn't provide knowledge of any kind about anything. In fact, a staggering 75% of all wrongful convictions ALL had eyewitnesses.


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Last edited by ThisWillDestroyYou; December 15th 2012 at 03:42 AM.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 03:52 AM

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How do they know it was the Biblical one? Have they experienced other ones? Did god speak to them and say, "You're in the biblical hell." As aforementioned, Hell, a place of eternal conscious torment, is not in the Bible, so wherever they went certainly could not have been biblical. Even if you take all instances where the New Testament speaks of a place for non-believers, it's VERY vague, so to claim they went to the biblical Hell is pure non-sense.

Also, this isn't true. Many people claim to have been abducted, all of their stories are similar. The same is true with ghosts. Everyone has a similar story.



I didn't say it had to be examined under a microscope. And again, as mentioned before, the court of law is based on philosophy, not evidence. Just because someone testifies to something doesn't make it true.

In fact, even in the court of law, Judges often consider eyewitnesses to be one of the most unreliable sources which is why there are things like forensics. In fact, let me quote Leo and Cramer's Problems and Materials on Trial Advocacy: (this is a book used in many Law schools)
Eyewitness testimony is, at best, evidence of what the witness believes to have occurred. It may or may not tell what actually happened. The familiar problems of perception, of gauging time, speed, height, weight, of accurate identification of persons accused of crime all contribute to making honest testimony something less than completely credible.
Hell, I even give you links to more information on eye witnesses:
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-fallibil...62.html?cat=72
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...esses-in-the-z
http://www.visualexpert.com/Resource...essmemory.html

I'm sorry but other than saying, "my arguments aren't valid," I don't feel you've provided anything sufficient to sway anyone's mind. You haven't provided any arguments or actual proof other than just denying everything I've said. If anyone is closed-minded it's you. I don't consider myself closed-minded, I just don't make ridiculous claims that there is a Hell and choose to believe in it, solely because someone said there is one.

Like I said, I don't believe in aliens, or ghosts, or anything supernatural. Though I believe all of them are possible, there is just no evidence. And no eyewitness could change my mind. Why? Because it's incredibly relative and completely unreliable and unscientific. It doesn't provide knowledge of any kind about anything. In fact, a staggering 75% of all wrongful convictions ALL had eyewitnesses.
Apparently in heaven and hell, your senses and awareness are much higher. People report having an instant knowledge of things. The point being that they all came back believing it was the hell of the Bible. And the Bible doesn't give us every single detail. But it tells us enough to know that the lost will suffer eternal damnation. The fact that the Bible doesn't have a whole page on what hell is like doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I believe in ghosts, and if you could give me the names of these people who claimed to have been abducted by aliens then I'll read their testimony.

And you can argue all you like about eye witnesses or testimonies being unreliable. When you get a variety of people--atheists, muslims, agnostics, etc--claiming that when they were dying they left their body and experienced seeing hell, demons, lost souls, etc, and that it was the hell of the Bible, it might not prove hell scientifically, but it seems very likely that hell could indeed be a real place. The kind of evidence that you're looking for is very narrow.

I also believe the Bible has stood the test of time and is very reliable. If the Bible can be proven to be reliable, then we are justified for believing in hell. Combine that with people's life after death experience and I believe the evidence is overwhelming. But like I've said, your standard of evidence is very narrow.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 03:54 AM

I consider Hell to be heaven considered then actual Heaven. I rather be around flames all day, rocking out then floating around some clouds.

Rock on... \m/


   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 04:12 AM

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I consider Hell to be heaven considered then actual Heaven. I rather be around flames all day, rocking out then floating around some clouds.

Rock on... \m/
This reminds me of my favorite quote from Supernatural. Cas is telling Dean that it's a good thing the Apocolypse is going to happen because when it's over it will paradise on Earth, that there will be no more pain or anger. And Dean says "You can take your peace and shove it up your lily white ass. Cause I'll take the pain and the guilt, I'll even take Sam as is. It's a lot better than being some Stepford bitch in paradise."


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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 04:53 AM

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I consider Hell to be heaven considered then actual Heaven. I rather be around flames all day, rocking out then floating around some clouds.

Rock on... \m/
You don't float on clouds in heaven. And I'm willing to make a bet with you: I bet any money that you would be unable to stand naked in the middle of a huge bonfire for at least 10 seconds. You wouldn't be able to tolerate the pain. However, the fires of hell are much hotter. Hell is in the center of the earth, or near to it. If you want to know what hell is like, think of a volcano when it erupts. You will have to endure the heat for eternity, and the center of the earth is extremely hot.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 04:54 AM

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It depends how you define Hell. However, assuming you mean the "Christian" version of it, I see no physical evidence to believe in Hell. So, in that regard, no, I don't believe in Hell.

When I was a Christian, I believed in Hell until I began to stray away from the tradition of the Church. At that point I became an annihilationist as I believed it suited the character of god more properly, and also fit the biblical perspective (and I found that I wasn't the only Christian who took this view, many in the early Church taught the annihilation perspective, not to mention the entire Old Testament). That is, the wages of sin is death, the wicked will be destroyed by god, etc. not tormented forever. And even the word forever, which is used in some of these passages, means "for an age." Once you start studying the issue in more detail, the whole idea of Hell is entirely unbiblical. Look up annihilationism. You'll see it makes more sense.

Regardless of all this, as I've said, there is no reason for me to believe in Hell because I see no physical evidence of it, and I think the bible can be relatively disproven as non-factual and solely a fictional collection of religious texts. That being said, of course, I don't know there is no hell. I just don't see any reason to believe in it.
Hi Mike,

I hope you're OK.

I agree with you. [At least your first two paragraphs!] It's how I interpret scripture. The wages of sin IS death. Now BECOMING dead might not be a pleasant experience - especially for some of us. The idea of never ending torment is not only a betrayal of the character of God - it's not even Biblical.

That said.... are you still a Christian? You can disagree with the mainstream point of view and still be a Christian. I'm a Christian and I disagree with many things many Churches believe. But let's face it - most churches are filled with pew warmers who rarely ever hear what's being said to them let alone take the time to consider whether or not it's the TRUTH. I am willing to bet that many - if not most - Christians would be quite receptive to the idea of the unforgiven being annihilated [Or at least 'eventually annihilated'] if shown scriptures that support the idea. Sadly - some Christians believe that to question their church doctrine is the same as questioning God. But even to that I say - I think God loves it when we question Him and try to find the truth. Obviously we believe in Him if we're questioning Him! [Or at least open to the idea of Him]

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 05:04 AM

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You don't float on clouds in heaven. And I'm willing to make a bet with you: I bet any money that you would be unable to stand naked in the middle of a huge bonfire for at least 10 seconds. You wouldn't be able to tolerate the pain. However, the fires of hell are much hotter. Hell is in the center of the earth, or near to it. If you want to know what hell is like, think of a volcano when it erupts. You will have to endure the heat for eternity, and the center of the earth is extremely hot.
Except when you're dead none of your nerve endings will work considering you won't be in your body, so you won't really feel the heat, or anything for that matter.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 05:14 AM

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Apparently in heaven and hell, your senses and awareness are much higher. People report having an instant knowledge of things. The point being that they all came back believing it was the hell of the Bible. And the Bible doesn't give us every single detail. But it tells us enough to know that the lost will suffer eternal damnation. The fact that the Bible doesn't have a whole page on what hell is like doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Okay, well, despite the interpretive issues of the Bible (need I remind you there are over 35,000 Christian denominations all with different theology and likely different theologies of Hell-- so tell me, which denominations view of hell did they experience?), I'll go ahead and take your word that Hell is a place where the "lost suffer eternal damnation." But, if this is true, did those eye-witnesses witness people suffering eternally? Or only periodically? They did come back to life to tell these tales, correct? So, if all you have is that Hell is a place of eternal suffering, then it seems to me incredibly unlikely that any of these people who came back to life were there eternally. Which makes their story very improbable.

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I believe in ghosts, and if you could give me the names of these people who claimed to have been abducted by aliens then I'll read their testimony.
See, here is where we run into a interpretive issue, and something that is very relative to personal perception, which is why eyewitnesses are unreliable. You say you believe in ghosts. What type of ghosts? What are ghosts? Are they spirits of people who've departed? And if so, why aren't they in Heaven? Why aren't they in Hell? Are they demons? Or are they a natural phenomena that we cannot explain yet? I would obviously side with the latter (if I had to choose), but people understand the idea of ghosts very differently.

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And you can argue all you like about eye witnesses or testimonies being unreliable. When you get a variety of people--atheists, muslims, agnostics, etc--claiming that when they were dying they left their body and experienced seeing hell, demons, lost souls, etc, and that it was the hell of the Bible, it might not prove hell scientifically, but it seems very likely that hell could indeed be a real place. The kind of evidence that you're looking for is very narrow.
And if I lived in ancient Greece, I would have had a near death experience and believed I went to Hades, where there are also lost souls. The evidence I am looking for isn't narrow. The evidence I am looking for is how we prove the validity and truthfulness of all knowledge. Technically, I don't know I exist. But, I have consciousness, everyone sees me, and I'm willing to bet I have DNA, human DNA, so I'd say based on that, it's likely I exist. We don't have the same observable evidence with Hell. What you are essentially saying is that if two little kids came to you saying, "Here's my friend Bobby," and you didn't see Bobby (because he is an imaginary friend), that you would believe them, simply because two kids see Bobby. It just doesn't make sense. But if EVERYONE saw Bobby, it'd be more probable Bobby exists.

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I also believe the Bible has stood the test of time and is very reliable. If the Bible can be proven to be reliable, then we are justified for believing in hell. Combine that with people's life after death experience and I believe the evidence is overwhelming. But like I've said, your standard of evidence is very narrow.
I will use an argument that you've been using the whole time (simply because I don't feel like wasting any more time on you because I know you'll ignore everything I write, speaking of narrow-mindedness). You're wrong. The bible has been proven unreliable.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 05:14 AM

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Except when you're dead none of your nerve endings will work considering you won't be in your body, so you won't really feel the heat, or anything for that matter.
The soul lives on after death. People will have a spiritual body. Yes, pain will be felt in hell. It's a place of misery and torment. Those in hell were also people who laughed at and mocked the idea of hell. Now they're in torment and would do anything for another chance. Don't make the same mistake.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 05:24 AM

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Okay, well, despite the interpretive issues of the Bible (need I remind you there are over 35,000 Christian denominations all with different theology and likely different theologies of Hell-- so tell me, which denominations view of hell did they experience?), I'll go ahead and take your word that Hell is a place where the "lost suffer eternal damnation." But, if this is true, did those eye-witnesses witness people suffering eternally? Or only periodically? They did come back to life to tell these tales, correct? So, if all you have is that Hell is a place of eternal suffering, then it seems to me incredibly unlikely that any of these people who came back to life were there eternally. Which makes their story very improbable.



See, here is where we run into a interpretive issue, and something that is very relative to personal perception, which is why eyewitnesses are unreliable. You say you believe in ghosts. What type of ghosts? What are ghosts? Are they spirits of people who've departed? And if so, why aren't they in Heaven? Why aren't they in Hell? Are they demons? Or are they a natural phenomena that we cannot explain yet? I would obviously side with the latter (if I had to choose), but people understand the idea of ghosts very differently.



And if I lived in ancient Greece, I would have had a near death experience and believed I went to Hades, where there are also lost souls. The evidence I am looking for isn't narrow. The evidence I am looking for is how we prove the validity and truthfulness of all knowledge. Technically, I don't know I exist. But, I have consciousness, everyone sees me, and I'm willing to bet I have DNA, human DNA, so I'd say based on that, it's likely I exist. We don't have the same observable evidence with Hell. What you are essentially saying is that if two little kids came to you saying, "Here's my friend Bobby," and you didn't see Bobby (because he is an imaginary friend), that you would believe them, simply because two kids see Bobby. It just doesn't make sense. But if EVERYONE saw Bobby, it'd be more probable Bobby exists.



I will use an argument that you've been using the whole time (simply because I don't feel like wasting any more time on you because I know you'll ignore everything I write, speaking of narrow-mindedness). You're wrong. The bible has been proven unreliable.
As long as a person repents of their sins and puts their faith in Christ, they are saved. It doesn't really matter what Christian denomination you are in. Faith and repentance is what matters. And your questions about hell are irrelevant. I cannot prove these experiences to be genuine, nor can you disprove them.

I believe ghosts are actually demons. Demons can impersonate dead people. When you die, your soul/spirit goes straight to heaven or hell.

To compare personal experiences that have changed peoples lives to two kids with an imaginary friend has proven your inability to take anything seriously. If you can't see the fundamental difference then you are simply grasping at straws, and this is the problem I have with people like you: you don't take it seriously.

And from what I've studied on the Bible, I have found it to be trustworthy, supported by evidence.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 05:57 AM

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You don't float on clouds in heaven. And I'm willing to make a bet with you: I bet any money that you would be unable to stand naked in the middle of a huge bonfire for at least 10 seconds. You wouldn't be able to tolerate the pain. However, the fires of hell are much hotter. Hell is in the center of the earth, or near to it. If you want to know what hell is like, think of a volcano when it erupts. You will have to endure the heat for eternity, and the center of the earth is extremely hot.
That's alright. Because I'm a United States Marine. And Marines Never die, We just go to Hell and regroup.

So Stephen, as it transpires to me that you really need a hug, here is a hug for you

Ciao!


   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 07:06 AM

Do you believe in hell, and if not, how sure are you?
Nope, it doesn't make sense to me. Seems like scare-tactics that old men a long time ago created so that they could keep order of the peasants. But that's just me.

Do you believe Jesus Christ when he says that unrepentant sinners will end up in hell?
Nope, same reason as above. The man may have existed, but I do not believe in the religion.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 01:31 PM

I personally do believe in hell because many people have seen it, and it changed their lives and brought them to Christ. Each to their own I guess.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 03:21 PM

Alright so my theology isn't really along the same as most major Christian denominations. In my religion we believe that there are three kingdoms (this is referenced in the bible ) There is the Celestial Kingdom which is the highest and is closet to God, then there is the terrestrial which is the middle i.e. you live a pretty decent life, and then there is the telestial which is you messed up pretty bad. You go where you are most comfortable. If you spend your life being the "Goody two shoes" then you will be with other "goody two shoes". Then if you are a "party animal" then you will end up with other "party animals". After that we believe in outer darkness, now in order to get there you have to see God in all of his glory and still deny his existence. That's personally what I believe and so if you disagree that's completely fine whatever
Have a fantastic day
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Re: Questions about hell - December 15th 2012, 04:38 PM

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As long as a person repents of their sins and puts their faith in Christ, they are saved. It doesn't really matter what Christian denomination you are in. Faith and repentance is what matters. And your questions about hell are irrelevant. I cannot prove these experiences to be genuine, nor can you disprove them.
First of all, when you assert a claim, it then depends on you to show that it is true supported by evidence. It's not dependent on me to show you it's not true, that's impossible.

Anyways, you're missing the point. There are 35,000 different Christian denominations. Of that 35,000 different Christian denominations there are AT LEAST 6 MAJOR (traditional, literal, metaphorical, purgatorial, conditional, and annihilation) different views of Hell. Of those 6 different major views of Hell, I am willing to bet there are several thousand MINOR interpretations of Hell (which posters above me have proved). So, when you say, "They saw the Biblical Hell." You're making it possible for thousands of different "biblical Hell"'s that they saw. And to say, "It was the Biblical Hell," means they need something in which to compare it to. So, unless they experienced another Hell, there testimony is questionable.

I'll give you a simple example. When I was younger, I never had a beer. However, I accidentally drank a beer when I was 12. I compared this beer to root beer, because I thought it was a root beer. Then, when I got older, I realized I drank beer, and once I had another beer, I knew for certain what I drank was beer because I had another beer, and knew it wasn't root beer.

I've talked with people who went to Heaven when they died. Two people said they went to a rock and roll Heaven. Do you believe in Rock and Roll Heaven, too?

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I believe ghosts are actually demons. Demons can impersonate dead people. When you die, your soul/spirit goes straight to heaven or hell.
Then you don't believe in the same ghosts most people believe in: People's departed Spirits. Likewise, I can believe that people visioned something, but it doesn't mean I believe it to be Hell (if I even believe them at all).

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To compare personal experiences that have changed peoples lives to two kids with an imaginary friend has proven your inability to take anything seriously. If you can't see the fundamental difference then you are simply grasping at straws, and this is the problem I have with people like you: you don't take it seriously.
You don't take science seriously, and you haven't responded to any of my arguments because you can't. You simply just say, "This is what I believe," while ignoring science. I think your just beating around the bush and avoiding my question because you don't have an answer.

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And from what I've studied on the Bible, I have found it to be trustworthy, supported by evidence.
Really? Tell me, what do you know of Nazareth around 1 CE? What do you know of the historians of Christ's supposed time? What do you know of Luke? Or any of the gospel writers and their reliability? What do you know of the actual historical contexts of the Bible? How exactly do you find it trustworthy? What evidence do you find it supported by?


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Re: Questions about hell - December 18th 2012, 09:12 AM

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First of all, when you assert a claim, it then depends on you to show that it is true supported by evidence. It's not dependent on me to show you it's not true, that's impossible.

Anyways, you're missing the point. There are 35,000 different Christian denominations. Of that 35,000 different Christian denominations there are AT LEAST 6 MAJOR (traditional, literal, metaphorical, purgatorial, conditional, and annihilation) different views of Hell. Of those 6 different major views of Hell, I am willing to bet there are several thousand MINOR interpretations of Hell (which posters above me have proved). So, when you say, "They saw the Biblical Hell." You're making it possible for thousands of different "biblical Hell"'s that they saw. And to say, "It was the Biblical Hell," means they need something in which to compare it to. So, unless they experienced another Hell, there testimony is questionable.

I'll give you a simple example. When I was younger, I never had a beer. However, I accidentally drank a beer when I was 12. I compared this beer to root beer, because I thought it was a root beer. Then, when I got older, I realized I drank beer, and once I had another beer, I knew for certain what I drank was beer because I had another beer, and knew it wasn't root beer.

I've talked with people who went to Heaven when they died. Two people said they went to a rock and roll Heaven. Do you believe in Rock and Roll Heaven, too?



Then you don't believe in the same ghosts most people believe in: People's departed Spirits. Likewise, I can believe that people visioned something, but it doesn't mean I believe it to be Hell (if I even believe them at all).



You don't take science seriously, and you haven't responded to any of my arguments because you can't. You simply just say, "This is what I believe," while ignoring science. I think your just beating around the bush and avoiding my question because you don't have an answer.



Really? Tell me, what do you know of Nazareth around 1 CE? What do you know of the historians of Christ's supposed time? What do you know of Luke? Or any of the gospel writers and their reliability? What do you know of the actual historical contexts of the Bible? How exactly do you find it trustworthy? What evidence do you find it supported by?
I've repeatedly refuted these arguments. I'm not going through them again. Like I said, each to their own.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 18th 2012, 03:26 PM

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I've repeatedly refuted these arguments. I'm not going through them again. Like I said, each to their own.
You haven't refuted a single argument. You've only told me I'm wrong without any genuine reason as to why. You've nearly ignored every question or response I've given. If "to each their own," why even bother starting this thread to begin with?


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Re: Questions about hell - December 18th 2012, 09:22 PM

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I've repeatedly refuted these arguments. I'm not going through them again. Like I said, each to their own.
Just because I'm actually interested in the answers and I find it more helpful when a third party becomes involved I'm going to weigh in as well...

No you have not refuted anything and I seriously would love to hear your actual answers.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 19th 2012, 12:10 AM

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You don't float on clouds in heaven. And I'm willing to make a bet with you: I bet any money that you would be unable to stand naked in the middle of a huge bonfire for at least 10 seconds. You wouldn't be able to tolerate the pain. However, the fires of hell are much hotter. Hell is in the center of the earth, or near to it. If you want to know what hell is like, think of a volcano when it erupts. You will have to endure the heat for eternity, and the center of the earth is extremely hot.
I just had to enter this, might as well.

Okay, regardless on my views on Hell & Christianity, how do you to know what hell is like?
Hell could be something totally different from what you described, & so could heaven. You have no idea, seeing as you're typing answers to these things, meaning, you're not dead, so how could you know?

Bottom line, you have no idea what heave/hell is like, you just think you know, you base it from your religion & faith. But nobody really knows, until they pass.


If you're looking for a sign not to kill yourself tonight, this is it.
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Re: Questions about hell - December 19th 2012, 02:49 PM

Yes, I am 100% sure about hell, as well as Heaven.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 19th 2012, 03:47 PM

As a Catholic I do believe in Hell - but not in the sense of it being a pit of unceasing flame in which people burn for all eternity. I simply believe in it being a state of existence where God is totally absent from that person, and their soul simply exists in a vacuum separate from the presence of God. No hellfire, no brimstone. If anything, it would probably be cold.

I'm also not sure whether I believe it to be a permanent state of being, as I would imagine a loving, compassionate God would show mercy on someone who, having entered such a state, genuinely repented. That may not be entirely in keeping with the creed of the Church but it makes more sense to me. Let's face it, it's only a slight variation on the idea of purgatory...


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: Questions about hell - December 19th 2012, 04:26 PM

I think it's kind of wrong for people to tell others that they're wrong in what they believe in. Just, seriously, you don't like others telling you what to believe in so why are you forcing your ideals down another person's throat? You can state your belief, but why do you have to force it on someone. Whether an athiest, christian, or any other religion. The bible isnt about science, its about faith, hope, and love(:

Now that thats over I believe in hell. I don't think I'll ever know how it will be like because I expect myself to go to heaven I think that the dude above me has a really cool look on hell. I do think that 'nerves' don't really apply when it comes to hell if it was the 'fire pit of torture' kind of cliché. It just seems kind of obvious to me, but this is MY opinion on things. So you may disagree


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Re: Questions about hell - December 19th 2012, 04:51 PM

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Yes, I am 100% sure about hell, as well as Heaven.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." -Hebrews 11:1
I don't really know who you're response was to, but you're using circular reasoning and using the Bible as proof. Of course if you have faith in something you have a sort of assurance. But it doesn't mean you're correct.

When, I was young, I had 100% assurance and conviction that Santa was real and that he delivered my presents on Christmas because I had faith what my mom told me was true.

And, well, guess what?

All this proves is you have faith in your faith.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 19th 2012, 05:22 PM

I don't understand how you didn't reply to a single part of Craig's post...

Anyway, no. I don't believe in hell.
   
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Re: Questions about hell - December 19th 2012, 06:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maloo View Post
I don't understand how you didn't reply to a single part of Craig's post...

Anyway, no. I don't believe in hell.
If you're talking to me, I see nothing to respond to. Craig is expressing his belief, and I'm fine with that. But since I am not a Christian, nor do I believe in god, there isn't much I can say in response other than: No, I am not a Christian. I consider myself a weak-atheist or an agnostic-atheist in that I do not know if there is a god, but I see no evidence for him. Similarly, I don't know if there is a flying-spaghetti monster, or a tooth fairy, but I don't see evidence for them. As for the rest of the post, I like that Craig questions his beliefs, and his god, but seeing that it is rather relative to Craig alone, there is nothing I can really debate. It's like trying to debate a post-modernist.


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Re: Questions about hell - December 19th 2012, 06:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
If you're talking to me, I see nothing to respond to. Craig is expressing his belief, and I'm fine with that. But since I am not a Christian, nor do I believe in god, there isn't much I can say in response other than: No, I am not a Christian. I consider myself a weak-atheist or an agnostic-atheist in that I do not know if there is a god, but I see no evidence for him. Similarly, I don't know if there is a flying-spaghetti monster, or a tooth fairy, but I don't see evidence for them. As for the rest of the post, I like that Craig questions his beliefs, and his god, but seeing that it is rather relative to Craig alone, there is nothing I can really debate. It's like trying to debate a post-modernist.
My post was directed towards the OP.
   
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