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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Proof? - May 29th 2013, 09:16 PM

Okay, I'm done arguing with people about religion. Three freaking Atheists already teamed up against me and shot down all my beliefs and everything I ever knew. idiots.
So please don't tell me smut like, "oomg ur Christian ur so stupid seriously dumfk gtfo." I've heard enough.

I just need some biblical proof that my God exists. If you don't believe in God, its best you don't answer. I know in my heart that he's real, but I can't fond proof and its bugging the hell outta me. I hate questioning the Lord's existence so please help me. I'm desperate.
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Re: Proof? - May 29th 2013, 09:41 PM

I'm an atheist, I don't really have an answer to your question, but I just want to let you know that what those people did to you was wrong. This is not what atheists are like as a whole; as there are extremely mean Christians, there are extremely mean atheists, and that's what these people were. I apologize for how they made you feel about your belief system. You don't need to be able to "prove" your beliefs. Sure, during a debate, you need "proof." But nobody should gang up on you and tell you that what you believe is stupid. I know exactly how that can be, as I was bullied and told I was going to go to hell in elementary school, I've been on the other side of that. It's not fun. I hope you find some answers you are looking for, but I just wanted to let you know that these people were awful.


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Re: Proof? - May 29th 2013, 10:03 PM

Thank you so much. Just to let you know, i don't hate all atheists because of these people. I think you're a great person, from that post. Thank you for such a positive post.


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Re: Proof? - May 30th 2013, 02:09 AM

To answer your question, there's really no scientific proof or anything like that to prove your god exists. Otherwise, there would only be one true religion. The only proof you need to believe in something is the proof you have within yourself. If you believe that God is real, then that's enough reason for you to believe in what you believe. Until it's disproven, then you are rationally able to believe in it. Atheists can say what they want, but it doesn't really change anything about your beliefs so don't believe for a second that they can prove you wrong. Cause they can't. But they'll try, but you just can't let them get to you. Historically, Atheists were the ones who were criticized (I even want to say that some were executed or thrown in jail) in the beginning, so it's only understandable that Atheists are going to criticize religious people. There's a lot of hate between both beliefs, and there's a lot of people who are incapable of having an intellectual conversation...just be aware that they are out there and do your best to avoid them. I can't speak for an Atheist because I'm a branch of Agnosticism, but those Atheists are bad representatives of the Atheistic belief, and I'm sorry that you had your views criticized like that. They don't seem like very smart individuals, and people like that aren't worth your time.
   
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Re: Proof? - May 31st 2013, 02:23 AM

God is real if you believe that God is real, because he is then real to you. If you have any amount of faith -- and this is coming from someone who isn't a Christian, but I was raised by them -- you would be certain without a doubt that your God does exist. Maybe it would be wise to look up some scripture concerning lack of faith?


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Re: Proof? - May 31st 2013, 02:34 AM

Don't stress yourself out about it. Some people will refuse to believe anything, even if you give them evidence. What we see as proof, they see as...something else, I guess. We do this too if you think about it.
Don't waste your time on them if they're not willing to listen. It sounds like they're arguing just to degrade you and your faith. If they don't actually want to hear what you say, maybe you shouldn't bother.
Have you read the verse, about "Don't throw the pearls to the swine"? Or "Don't throw what is holy to the dogs"? "Or they will turn and maul you"? It's in Matthew during the sermon on the mount part.
I kinda take this as don't waste your time with trying to convince people that will trash up whatever it is you say, no matter what you say. They'll, in your case especially, tear you up, perhaps in your faith, perhaps physically (But since we're in the US and not a Communist or Middle Eastern country, the likelihood of that happening isn't very high). Do what you see fit, just don't lose any sleep over it.
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PS: I'm not saying you should stop telling people about God. No way! Just try to discern between Those that will listen and those that only listen in order to reply and bruise your faith.
Arguing is what debate team is for, ha!
More loving, less hating...Hang in there.


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Re: Proof? - May 31st 2013, 03:36 AM

Thanks a bunch for the answers guys. I definetly will look up some scripture, Ana. I just don't know where to look...
And I agree with you 10000% Ally. They are exactly like you said. I can't stand them when they get like that, but two of them are actually great people, aside from religion. The other one is just a huge brat.


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Re: Proof? - May 31st 2013, 03:58 AM

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Originally Posted by Jess~ View Post
Thanks a bunch for the answers guys. I definetly will look up some scripture, Ana. I just don't know where to look...
And I agree with you 10000% Ally. They are exactly like you said. I can't stand them when they get like that, but two of them are actually great people, aside from religion. The other one is just a huge brat.
Hey, hey, now I'm not a Christian, and I'm helping you with this stuff, lol.

I love theology in all forms, so even I don't have the same religion, I definitely have respect for what you believe in. That "other one" is probably just saying what they are because they lack conviction in their own unbelief; harping on Christians is kind of an ego boost for folks like that. I'd recommend steering clear of them, 'cause I used to be just like them, and trust me... Not someone you'd like to get into a religious debate with.

This link might help you a bit, and this one even more. They're a bunch of verses and things, and you might find more verses about faith around the verses it talks directly about. Good luck, and if you need more help, I'll delve into the study Bible my Mom got me, and help you with that. Good luck on your own religious path, Jess!


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Re: Proof? - May 31st 2013, 09:41 PM

Like others, I feel I must apologise on behalf of non-Believers: I enjoy debating on the topic with my friends, some of whom are Christian and some not, but what you describe is unacceptable intolerance of your beliefs.
You should be able to believe what you like.

I don't really know what "evidence" I can give you - partly as their is none, and partly because anything I tried would feel like lying as I don't believe.
I'd point out, though, that you can focus on what you posted originally: you feel that you "know" (ie. you believe). Maybe that's enough for you?


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Re: Proof? - June 1st 2013, 08:56 AM

I'll state in advance that I don't believe in God, and that you didn't want answers from non-believers, but I agree that the fact that your own beliefs determine whether or not God is real for you, as that's what is it important. I am atheist, and there is no solid proof that God isn't real either, so neither belief system needs evidence to back itself up. Beliefs are beliefs.
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Re: Proof? - June 10th 2013, 08:29 PM

I think you would like this website I know abut the bible.

http://www.ntgateway.com/

It has a lot of great resources. You should look at the general resources and historical Jesus. Wikipedia is a good resource in general because it has to be impartial.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
http://www.christianorigins.com/
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/onlinebooks.html
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/

This is a book by an agnostic author who argues in favor of Jesus existing:
http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0062206443

Christian scholar's writings:
http://www.henrywansbrough.com/booklets.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._denominations
http://www.religioustolerance.org/

Poke around and learn about some other denominations and religions. There's a lot of diversity in views in Christianity.

I can't offer you any proof of God. I don't think there is any proof.

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Re: Proof? - June 11th 2013, 04:36 PM

I'm sorry that this is the impression you are getting of atheists. Its actually pisses me off a little that there are atheists who insist on knocking other peoples religions (just as much as it pisses me off when other people can't comprehend how i am an atheist and/or try to convert me and/or knock on my religion) but that's just cause it's like who cares, we believe what we believe, but then you get all these people who think that being an atheist is the equivelent to being anti-religion, and if you'd ever met me you'd realize that that's absolutely not the case and not what atheism is all about. Yes, some of us don't like religion and some of us have very valid reasons not to like organized religion. But for a lot of us the choice to be an atheist is no different then the choice to be a Christian or a Muslim in that scientific and/or a non-belief in God is simply what we believe in over something that is spiritual. Maybe we're all missing something in our lives or maybe all religious people are wrong, but at the end of the day I wish people would let it go, try to NOT to degrade/belittle other peoples beliefs. Like it doesn't matter what my assessment of Christianity is, its not my place to blatantly disregard it and call it wrong. I'll be honest though, it frustrates me when I try to tell a Christian about why I don't believe in God and then they get all defensive and start justifying like "how could you possibly not believe in God I'd be nothing without god etc" and it's like ok, just shut up, i'm not sitting around telling you why you should be an atheist so I don't need to hear about how I should/need to be a Christian... I think the problem is that a lot of people struggle to talk about religion without questioning it, but questioning it is ok, it's just when you can't wrap your mind around why someone else believes something different that you get problems (such as "mean" Christians and "mean" atheists who won't accept other peoples beliefs and act like it's ridiculous or that person is just blatantly wrong in a bad way)




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Re: Proof? - June 12th 2013, 08:37 AM

The main issue we have is when we debate with Christians they seem to just invoke God and Biblical principles without any basis that's outside of the circular reasoning only using the Bible as justification for the existence of God invokes. It's quite troubling to many of us that people will just assert things they assume/presume to be true without the provision of any form of "back-up" for their claims. It sets itself up as an unfalsifiable claim, which could just as well be done with any form of deity ever conjured by humanity. It's not that atheists necessarily are out to knock your beliefs, it's simply very frustrating to see baseless invocation upheld as legitimate tactics for debate or substantiation of proof/evidence. Perhaps that's what results in a poorly-conveyed sense of what I'm saying that appears quite condescending or is perhaps riddled with many an expletive. I'll be the first to admit that our online community is not 100% comprised of intelligent or empathetic people.


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Re: Proof? - June 15th 2013, 08:26 PM

This is actually interesting. Out of curiosity, can someone supply the OP with a verse that states god exists?

A lot of fundamentalists believe the bible should be their only source of truth, but I can't think of any verse that actually states god exists. I realize it might be implied in texts, but none that outright state it, as many fundamentalists would want it.

If you want to delete this post you can, and I'll start a separate thread as my last intention is to shake the faith of someone struggling, but I am genuinely curious if anyone can supply a verse.


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Re: Proof? - June 15th 2013, 09:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
This is actually interesting. Out of curiosity, can someone supply the OP with a verse that states god exists?

A lot of fundamentalists believe the bible should be their only source of truth, but I can't think of any verse that actually states god exists. I realize it might be implied in texts, but none that outright state it, as many fundamentalists would want it.

If you want to delete this post you can, and I'll start a separate thread as my last intention is to shake the faith of someone struggling, but I am genuinely curious if anyone can supply a verse.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/god_loves_everyone

A lot of the verses are using present tense. It's a real big play with words. Also, I think it'd just make it worse if there was a verse that said "God exists" because then people would question...well, why put that in the first place? Because if I deciphered the Bible and found a passage that said "God exists," I would read that as "And God said...let there be light. And also, God totally exists. Yup. He's not a fake character and this is totally a legit story by the way. So if you doubt the existence of God, here's the evidence right here in plain words...straight to the point. Yup...totally real, bro."
   
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Re: Proof? - June 18th 2013, 07:40 PM

If it helps at all. Those who truly feel God MUST PREACH HIS NAME. He penetrates you with his beauty and grace.
   
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Re: Proof? - June 18th 2013, 07:59 PM

Here's the thing: No one can provide conclusive proof that your god is real, or that he's the one true god. Quite simply; because no such evidence exists. However, you yourself have stated that you don't care what other people say because you somehow "know" in your "heart" that god is real, so if you conclusively know that god is real for yourself, then why do you need the words of other's to support that idea? If you KNOW god is real, why would you need bible verses to "prove" it?

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Re: Proof? - June 18th 2013, 08:01 PM

John 7:33-36 "Jesus said, 'I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.' The Jews said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we cannot find him? Will he go where our people live scattered among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks? What did he mean when he said, 'You will look for me, but you will not find me, 'and 'Where I am, you cannot come'?"

(Jesus is going to heaven after he dies to be seated at the right hand of God's throne. If they want proof there is a God, here is Jesus talking about a heaven. Most aetheists don't believe in heaven.)
   
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Re: Proof? - June 18th 2013, 08:14 PM

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Originally Posted by hannahgreenwood View Post
If it helps at all. Those who truly feel God MUST PREACH HIS NAME. He penetrates you with his beauty and grace.
That's not going to work out well if the people you are preaching to are more knowledgeable than you are.

Eh, I'd say all atheists don't believe in Heaven. Also atheists don't believe in the bible or that the bible is the word of God so a bible verse means very little to them. Actually there's a lot of atheists who don't believe Jesus ever existed at all.
   
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Re: Proof? - June 18th 2013, 10:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
Actually there's a lot of atheists who don't believe Jesus ever existed at all.
Are you sure?

Most atheists come to their atheist beliefs because they look at facts, as far as I know.
There is evidence that Jesus existed. That he was the son of a God is perhaps less easy to prove.


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Re: Proof? - June 18th 2013, 11:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Rachael98 View Post


Are you sure?

Most atheists come to their atheist beliefs because they look at facts, as far as I know.
There is evidence that Jesus existed. That he was the son of a God is perhaps less easy to prove.
I didn't say I believed that, and I do agree there's evidence of his existence. I've encountered atheists who think Jesus is a figure similar to Hercules who is entirely a myth and not historical. It's called the Christ Myth Theory.
   
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Re: Proof? - June 19th 2013, 12:02 AM

Up In The Clouds
My first post about how those who truly feel God must preach his name was more to let her know that she shouldn't feel down about the fact that she is a Christian and was trying to tell others about her feelings toward God and whether or not he exists. I was letting her know she was okay to do that. For someone who is believer in God, they typically feel that they must preach his name because of what they have felt and witnessed by Him.
Also, I know Of Mike and Men was asking about whether or not the Bible ever actually says if there is a God or not. I provided those Bible verses as proof that the Bible does say God exists.
In general, having a debate with an atheist that involves use of the Bible at all is not really a good idea because obviously you are talking to people that are judgmental and aren't going to listen to you if it comes to that. Talking to people who are atheists and will actually listen is perfect.
It's true there are many people who don't believe in the existence or sanctity of God, Jesus, Moses, Mary, Joseph, the disciples, or any of the prophets. However, I am not lying to you when I say that scholars agree there was a man named Jesus that walked this Earth. We have His tomb and over a thousand years worth of writings to prove it. There are people descended from Jesus. You can order your genealogy records and they will tell you. The only thing atheists can say is that He isn't the son of God. His existence is confirmed. Our calendar dating from 2,013 years ago was the time of His birth.
   
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Re: Proof? - June 19th 2013, 01:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannahgreenwood View Post
Up In The Clouds
My first post about how those who truly feel God must preach his name was more to let her know that she shouldn't feel down about the fact that she is a Christian and was trying to tell others about her feelings toward God and whether or not he exists. I was letting her know she was okay to do that. For someone who is believer in God, they typically feel that they must preach his name because of what they have felt and witnessed by Him.
Also, I know Of Mike and Men was asking about whether or not the Bible ever actually says if there is a God or not. I provided those Bible verses as proof that the Bible does say God exists.
In general, having a debate with an atheist that involves use of the Bible at all is not really a good idea because obviously you are talking to people that are judgmental and aren't going to listen to you if it comes to that. Talking to people who are atheists and will actually listen is perfect.
It's true there are many people who don't believe in the existence or sanctity of God, Jesus, Moses, Mary, Joseph, the disciples, or any of the prophets. However, I am not lying to you when I say that scholars agree there was a man named Jesus that walked this Earth. We have His tomb and over a thousand years worth of writings to prove it. There are people descended from Jesus. You can order your genealogy records and they will tell you. The only thing atheists can say is that He isn't the son of God. His existence is confirmed. Our calendar dating from 2,013 years ago was the time of His birth.
Where are you getting your evidence that there are people descended from Jesus? Citation please? That's just a bizarre claim.

There are atheists who believe Jesus never existed. Personally, I don't subscribe to that thinking (or atheism actually). It's called the Christ Myth Theory. I don't think it's at all credible.

Our Calendar doesn't prove anything since it was created after Jesus died. We don't know the exact date he was born.
   
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Re: Proof? - June 23rd 2013, 09:04 PM

I am getting the descendants of Christ from a church. The Mormons, the second you become a part of their church will find the origins of your family line. While that may seem dubious, the Mormons have to elect someone in their community as a prophet every decade and they have to take into account the lineage of the person they are electing.

There are Greek, Roman, and Latin documents of a man named Jesus walking this Earth. They don't say that He is the Son of God or a prophet or anything special but they do say He existed and they also massacre plenty of people who follow Him and even die preaching His name.

Scholars have the tomb of Jesus as well and they have noticed that amoungst Jesus' followers they all essentially died professing Jesus existence but more importantly sanctity. This made people question, "who would die for a lie knowing it was a lie?" seeing as how they were able to figure out the swift possibility, these people are lying.

Our Calendar marks the day Christ was born. It was written after Christ died but again, "who would die for a lie knowing it was a lie?"

Scholars agree He existed.
   
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Re: Proof? - June 23rd 2013, 10:01 PM

Well, by my book... it doesn't matter what or who you believe as long you're good in heart and have the best intention for everybody. Personally, I just say the God is in me to make me feel confident in certain things. Because we are all powerful in our own way, a God/Goddess in each of us.
   
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Re: Proof? - June 23rd 2013, 11:30 PM

hannahgreenwood: Funny, did you know Jesus WASN'T born in December? Biblical scholars mostly agree it was likely sometimes in April, Christians changed it as as to convert Pagans to Christianity. That's why we have Christmas trees, it's a Pagan tradition, where they would take pieces of evergreen trees in doors through winter, something about keeping the spirits of the wood alive throughout winter. My point; our calendars don't mark the actual birth of anyone named Jesus Christ.

Anyhow, that's assuming Jesus ever even existed, because as other people have mentioned, Hercules never existed, and yet many myths and legends depict him as if he were. Even more recently, the story of King Arthur was considered at least somewhat true, until relatively recently when we realized a slew of factual errors revealed it to be a work of fiction. Historians change their minds over time, as new facts are revealed.

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Re: Proof? - June 24th 2013, 12:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannahgreenwood View Post
I am getting the descendants of Christ from a church. The Mormons, the second you become a part of their church will find the origins of your family line. While that may seem dubious, the Mormons have to elect someone in their community as a prophet every decade and they have to take into account the lineage of the person they are electing.

There are Greek, Roman, and Latin documents of a man named Jesus walking this Earth. They don't say that He is the Son of God or a prophet or anything special but they do say He existed and they also massacre plenty of people who follow Him and even die preaching His name.

Scholars have the tomb of Jesus as well and they have noticed that amoungst Jesus' followers they all essentially died professing Jesus existence but more importantly sanctity. This made people question, "who would die for a lie knowing it was a lie?" seeing as how they were able to figure out the swift possibility, these people are lying.

Our Calendar marks the day Christ was born. It was written after Christ died but again, "who would die for a lie knowing it was a lie?"

Scholars agree He existed.
So you're using the Mormons religious beliefs as evidence for your religious beliefs? That doesn't make any sense. They don't have evidence for that and you still haven't given me a citation. I thought they assign you a tribe from the tribes of Israel, not from Christ. I might be wrong though. Jesus isn't recorded as having any children in the bible.

Once again I will say I do not doubt the existence of Jesus but a calendar proves nothing. We do not know exactly when this man was born. We have a general idea of when he was born. Our calendar is a reform of the Julian calendar. The Julian calendar was a reform of the Roman Calendar.

John P. Meier states that Jesus' birth year is c. 7/6 BC.[1] Rahner states that the consensus among historians is c. 4 BC.[2] Sanders supports c. 4 BC, and refers to the general consensus.[3] Vermes supports c. 6/5 BC, calling it a common "early" date.[4] Finegan supports c. 3/2 BC, defending it comprehensively according to early Christian traditions.[5]

Obviously the original Christian were likely sincere in believing Jesus was a prophet, or God, or a great teacher or whatever they believed. You're putting words in my mouth. Many people have died throughout history for what from a Christian standpoint would be considered a lie. For example, the Meccans persecuting the early Muslims. Or the Babi's who died for believing the Imam Mahdi had come in Persia.

There is an extreme minority of fringe scholars who think Jesus is based on other stories or think he is largely fictional, but it is correct to say most every scholar, Christian or non-Christian, agrees on his existence.
   
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Re: Proof? - June 25th 2013, 05:36 AM

Thank you. I was trying to make the point that scholars agree that Jesus existed. Nothing more.
   
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