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Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 24th 2013, 01:59 AM

I don't want to believe in Christ.

It's not only that I don't, but I think it's illogical (no offense). I think that if the Abrahamic God is real, then he wouldn't come in the form of a book or send his "son" to earth for our sins. I feel that if he really had a prophet, it would be one which claimed to be only a messenger, not one which claimed to be his only son and the only way to reach Heaven, nor one which tries to change or add to his original laws.

The problem with this is the same as always. Any variance on what is normal belief will throw my family for a loop. I've found myself drawing closer to the Abrahamic God than usual as of late, and my life has improved by leaps and bounds since I prayed to him. Yet every time I pray to Christ, I feel icky and as if I'm pretending.

Does anyone know anything about non-Christian religions that worship the Abrahamic God?


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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 24th 2013, 03:57 AM

I could be completely wrong here, but I believe that's the basis of Judaism. I have a few Jewish friends and, from what they've told me, it seems that they believe in the Abrahamic God, but that they don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They believe that Jesus was a prophet who was meant to share God's Word, but that he is not THE prophet. From what I understand, they equate him more to Paul or Isaiah than to the true Messiah. I'm not sure if that's the direction you're leaning towards in your faith, but that might be something to look into.


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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 24th 2013, 01:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masquerade. View Post
I could be completely wrong here, but I believe that's the basis of Judaism. I have a few Jewish friends and, from what they've told me, it seems that they believe in the Abrahamic God, but that they don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They believe that Jesus was a prophet who was meant to share God's Word, but that he is not THE prophet. From what I understand, they equate him more to Paul or Isaiah than to the true Messiah. I'm not sure if that's the direction you're leaning towards in your faith, but that might be something to look into.
I've actually been looking into the Jewish faith, but I find researching it very difficult. Most of the sites I look at tend to throw in numerous Jewish words that, while I'd understand them if I had a dictionary, completely throw off my train of thought. I end up thinking about the region of the world the language is from and trying to tell if any English words are rooted in Jewish ones. Thus, I end up immensely confused. I know no one who is Jewish in real life, so I have no one to explain what I'm reading to me more precisely.


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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 24th 2013, 02:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Masquerade. View Post
I could be completely wrong here, but I believe that's the basis of Judaism. I have a few Jewish friends and, from what they've told me, it seems that they believe in the Abrahamic God, but that they don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They believe that Jesus was a prophet who was meant to share God's Word, but that he is not THE prophet. From what I understand, they equate him more to Paul or Isaiah than to the true Messiah. I'm not sure if that's the direction you're leaning towards in your faith, but that might be something to look into.
No, no, no! Jews do not believe in Jesus as a prophet. That's a huge misconception. He isn't anything more to them than just some guy. Jesus is irrelevant to Judaism like Buddha is irrelevant to Christianity. If your Jewish friends told you Jews believe Jesus is a prophet that is totally wrong. Trust me, I have asked a Hasidic orthodox Rabbi what Jews believe about Jesus and he told me they don't think of him as God or a prophet.

There is no THE prophet. There are different prophets in the bible and eventually Jews believe a messiah will come and bring peace to the world, but this view is not held by Reform Jews who believe in a messianic age.
   
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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 24th 2013, 02:47 PM

"An Oxford Guide Modern Judaism" has a lot of information in it, I could also go back to my syllabus and look up other things you can read about Judaism. The only problem is that, while all the stuff was easy to read as far as academic work goes, a lot of it was about scholars and, the book in particular seeks to explain ALL of modern Judaism and not just the today stuff, but if you want, I can help you get information for this. Also, if you live anywhere with a synagogue you can call them and ask if someone would be able to provide you with direction.




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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 24th 2013, 03:03 PM

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Originally Posted by SemperExpectantes. View Post
I've actually been looking into the Jewish faith, but I find researching it very difficult. Most of the sites I look at tend to throw in numerous Jewish words that, while I'd understand them if I had a dictionary, completely throw off my train of thought. I end up thinking about the region of the world the language is from and trying to tell if any English words are rooted in Jewish ones. Thus, I end up immensely confused. I know no one who is Jewish in real life, so I have no one to explain what I'm reading to me more precisely.
I can help you with the words. I also know a lot of Jewish websites and some books.

http://www.jewfaq.org/index.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/
http://judaism.about.com/
http://www.akhlah.com/

Orthodox Judaism:

http://www.askmoses.com/
http://www.chabad.org/


Traditional Jews believe the 613 Jewish laws were meant for the Jews. The seven laws of Noah were meant for everyone. You can convert to Judaism, but it's a very long process. It's easier to convert to Reform Judaism than Conservative or Orthodox. The process can take a year or more. It involves studying Judaism and working observance into your life. If you are a man you will have to get circumcised if you haven't already. If you are already circumcised a symbolic circumcision may be done to draw a drop of blood. The potential Jew will be seen in front of a Beit Din, a Jewish court, to judge their observance and see if they're ready. The process will end with immersion in a mikvah, which is like a Jewish pool.

There are different movement of Judaism. I'm presuming you live in the US.

Reform Judaism: Believes the Torah was written by men and inspired by God. The laws are an inspiration for life and individual Jews decide what laws speak to them that they will observe.

The Reform Jewish family I know doesn't regularly observe Shabbat, but they do observe Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Hanukkah and Passover. The dad doesn't wear a kippah except on special occasions. They don't practice the Jewish dietary laws. They teach their kids how to pray in Hebrew and they went to a Jewish school for a few years. Mostly they're very active in Ashkenazi culture and music. The mom works as a holocaust scholar.

Conservative Judaism: Believes the law changes with the time, but the heart of the law stays the same and the law is binding. The Conservative Jew I know does observe Shabbat regularly and keep Kosher.

Orthodox Jews: The laws is unchanging and binding. I have never met an orthodox Jew. There are different division in orthodox Judaism. Modern Orthodox Jews are very religiously observant, but pretty much look like normal people. The men will likely wear kippot and tzitzit and the women will usually wear skirts and long sleeved skirts. Modern Orthodox Jews are not particularly insular. If you know who Regina Spektor is she was raised as an orthodox Jew who went to Yeshiva.

Chasidic and Charedi Jews are the Jews you will see with long black coats, peyot, fedoras, beards, and tzitzit. Brooklyn has a ton of these Jews.

Judaism is NOT Christianity minus Jesus.

Another religion I think would interest you is the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith has about seven million followers all over the world. There are about two hundred thousand Baha'is in the US.

Baha'is believe God progressively sends Prophets to teach the world. They believe Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah were prophets sent to teach the earth. They teach mankind is one, world peace will come one day, the truth should be investigated independently, science and religion should be in harmony, men and women need to be equal, prejudice should be eliminated, everyone should be educated, and a universal second language should be established. Jesus is a prophet to them, but not literally an incarnation of God. The Baha'i Faith teaches Baha'u'llah is a symbolic, converging fulfillment of various prophesied figures in religions and Baha'u'llah is the spiritual return of Jesus. They believe the eternal truth of God is the same, but God's law changes to fit the times. It seems contradictory to say Buddhism and Hinduism teach one God, but Baha'is believe Buddha and Kirshna originally taught about one God and it kind of got messed up a lot by people. I can provide some writings about this if you're interested.

There is a beautiful Baha'i Temple in Chicago and there are Baha'i community centers in the US. Some saying of Bahau'llah include:

“Do not be content with showing friendship in words alone, let your heart burn with loving kindness for all who may cross your path.”
― Bahá'u'lláh

“The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens”
― Bahá'u'lláh

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot...126.Bah_u_ll_h

This guy was originally a Shi'a Muslim in 19th century Persia, so these are some pretty freaking progressive values.

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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 24th 2013, 09:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
Judaism is NOT Christianity minus Jesus.

Another religion I think would interest you is the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith has about seven million followers all over the world. There are about two hundred thousand Baha'is in the US.

Baha'is believe God progressively sends Prophets to teach the world. They believe Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah were prophets sent to teach the earth. They teach mankind is one, world peace will come one day, the truth should be investigated independently, science and religion should be in harmony, men and women need to be equal, prejudice should be eliminated, everyone should be educated, and a universal second language should be established. Jesus is a prophet to them, but not literally an incarnation of God. The Baha'i Faith teaches Baha'u'llah is a symbolic, converging fulfillment of various prophesied figures in religions and Baha'u'llah is the spiritual return of Jesus. They believe the eternal truth of God is the same, but God's law changes to fit the times. It seems contradictory to say Buddhism and Hinduism teach one God, but Baha'is believe Buddha and Kirshna originally taught about one God and it kind of got messed up a lot by people. I can provide some writings about this if you're interested.

There is a beautiful Baha'i Temple in Chicago and there are Baha'i community centers in the US. Some saying of Bahau'llah include:

“Do not be content with showing friendship in words alone, let your heart burn with loving kindness for all who may cross your path.”
― Bahá'u'lláh

“The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens”
― Bahá'u'lláh

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot...126.Bah_u_ll_h

This guy was originally a Shi'a Muslim in 19th century Persia, so these are some pretty freaking progressive values.
On further reflection, Reform Judaism sounds more plausible to me, and much more attainable.

I've heard of Bahai'i, and I'd be very interested about reading some of its teachings, if you'd be so kind as to message them to me.

Also, when it comes to either religion, I'm also concerned as to the worship services and style of dress (if any) which is required. If any of you are capable of providing information on these points, I'd appreciate that, as well.


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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 24th 2013, 11:23 PM

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Originally Posted by SemperExpectantes. View Post
On further reflection, Reform Judaism sounds more plausible to me, and much more attainable.

I've heard of Bahai'i, and I'd be very interested about reading some of its teachings, if you'd be so kind as to message them to me.

Also, when it comes to either religion, I'm also concerned as to the worship services and style of dress (if any) which is required. If any of you are capable of providing information on these points, I'd appreciate that, as well.
Reform Jews just dress like normal people. Baha'is dress like normal people too. Sometimes you'll see pictures of early Baha'is from Persia wearing traditional clothing, but there are no restrictions on dress other than a general guideline of dressing modestly.

http://www.bahai.org/
http://info.bahai.org/
http://reference.bahai.org/en/ - teachings can be read here
http://www.bahai.us/
http://www.studythefaith.com/
http://www.peninsulabahai.org/H2Hhtml/slide2.html - great introduction
http://www.bahai.org/faq/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/bahai/
http://www.bcca.org/bahaivision/
http://www.bahai-encyclopedia-project.org/

The Baha'is are relentlessly persecuted in Iran.
   
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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 25th 2013, 07:28 PM

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Originally Posted by SemperExpectantes. View Post
I don't want to believe in Christ.

It's not only that I don't, but I think it's illogical (no offense). I think that if the Abrahamic God is real, then he wouldn't come in the form of a book or send his "son" to earth for our sins. I feel that if he really had a prophet, it would be one which claimed to be only a messenger, not one which claimed to be his only son and the only way to reach Heaven, nor one which tries to change or add to his original laws.

The problem with this is the same as always. Any variance on what is normal belief will throw my family for a loop. I've found myself drawing closer to the Abrahamic God than usual as of late, and my life has improved by leaps and bounds since I prayed to him. Yet every time I pray to Christ, I feel icky and as if I'm pretending.

Does anyone know anything about non-Christian religions that worship the Abrahamic God?
Have you looked into Islam? They believe Christ was just a prophet and their roots are also with the Abrahmic god.


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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 26th 2013, 09:58 PM

Islam has Jesus as a prophet. Very similar in stories but I think they can be more focused on rituals
   
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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 27th 2013, 08:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
No, no, no! Jews do not believe in Jesus as a prophet. That's a huge misconception. He isn't anything more to them than just some guy. Jesus is irrelevant to Judaism like Buddha is irrelevant to Christianity. If your Jewish friends told you Jews believe Jesus is a prophet that is totally wrong. Trust me, I have asked a Hasidic orthodox Rabbi what Jews believe about Jesus and he told me they don't think of him as God or a prophet.

There is no THE prophet. There are different prophets in the bible and eventually Jews believe a messiah will come and bring peace to the world, but this view is not held by Reform Jews who believe in a messianic age.
Actually Jewish people do view Jesus as a prophet. There are 12 prophets alone in the Old Testament. I think you are confusing the words prophet and messiah. Judaism does not believe that a messiah has come yet. But they absolutely believe in many prophets. Just to clarify.




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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 27th 2013, 08:45 PM

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Originally Posted by SemperExpectantes. View Post
I've actually been looking into the Jewish faith, but I find researching it very difficult. Most of the sites I look at tend to throw in numerous Jewish words that, while I'd understand them if I had a dictionary, completely throw off my train of thought. I end up thinking about the region of the world the language is from and trying to tell if any English words are rooted in Jewish ones. Thus, I end up immensely confused. I know no one who is Jewish in real life, so I have no one to explain what I'm reading to me more precisely.
My mom's side of the family is jewish and I grew up jewish, also went to a yeshiva. Just like in christianity, the jewish religion has different subgroups so it might not be the same throughout, but from what I know Jesus is not considered anyone holy at all. Jews believe in abrahmic god but not in jesus christ. He was born jewish so they acknowledge that he was a man lived, that he did exist, but other than that, they don't believe he's a prophet or anyone special to be looked up to. Some jews won't even say his name out loud. We weren't allowed to say his name in school. Some teachers called him by his hebrew name yahewaeh (sorry not sure how to spell it in english) and the kids make a joke reference "cheese and crackers" in substitute for jesus christ.
I'm not sure if you're talking about there being hebrew words? it's possible there are yiddish words too, depending on what you're reading. If you need any help understanding what you're reading, feel free to ask me as I'll probably know and if you have any questions, also don't hesitate, I'm glad to help when I can.
   
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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 28th 2013, 02:08 AM

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Actually Jewish people do view Jesus as a prophet. There are 12 prophets alone in the Old Testament. I think you are confusing the words prophet and messiah. Judaism does not believe that a messiah has come yet. But they absolutely believe in many prophets. Just to clarify.

What I said is correct so there's no need for a clarification. Jesus is not a prophet in Judaism. That's a major misconception as I said earlier. Yes, I definitely know the difference between prophet and messiah. Jesus is viewed as neither.

Jesus is irrelevant to Judaism. He is not seen as a prophet, God, or the messiah. Saying Jesus is seen as a prophet by Jews is like saying Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, and Baha'u'llah are seen as prophets by Christians.

Jews don't believe in the New Testament or Jesus. If Jews considered Jesus a prophet then the gospels would be included in the Tanakh. If they believed in the New Testament and Jesus that would make them Christians.

They might believe in many prophets, but Jesus isn't one of them. The last prophet recognized by Jews is Malachi NOT Jesus. Jesus is never mentioned in the Jewish scripture or prayers. He is significant to Christianity and other religions, but not to Judaism. Believing in Jesus as a prophet is incompatible with Judaism. You can ask any Rabbi and they will tell you the exact same thing I am telling you. He is not anything special to Judaism.

Every major movement of Judaism including Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative and Orthodox doesn't believe in Jesus as a prophet. I have asked an Chasidic Orthodox Rabbi about this who told me Jews don't believe in Jesus as a prophet, the messiah, or God. Susan was also raised Jewish so she knows what she's talking about.

It's universal in Judaism that Jesus was just some dude and not anyone of Jewish religious significance. Jesus has nothing to do with Judaism whatsoever. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ask_...rt_Jesus.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus


Last edited by vrgtfvgt4vg; July 28th 2013 at 04:01 PM.
   
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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 28th 2013, 02:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Gryffindor94 View Post
My mom's side of the family is jewish and I grew up jewish, also went to a yeshiva. Just like in christianity, the jewish religion has different subgroups so it might not be the same throughout, but from what I know Jesus is not considered anyone holy at all. Jews believe in abrahmic god but not in jesus christ. He was born jewish so they acknowledge that he was a man lived, that he did exist, but other than that, they don't believe he's a prophet or anyone special to be looked up to. Some jews won't even say his name out loud. We weren't allowed to say his name in school. Some teachers called him by his hebrew name yahewaeh (sorry not sure how to spell it in english) and the kids make a joke reference "cheese and crackers" in substitute for jesus christ.
I'm not sure if you're talking about there being hebrew words? it's possible there are yiddish words too, depending on what you're reading. If you need any help understanding what you're reading, feel free to ask me as I'll probably know and if you have any questions, also don't hesitate, I'm glad to help when I can.
I think you might mean "Yeshua" for Jesus in Hebrew. The tetragrammaton is pronounced by some Christians as "Yahweh."

Anna, if you're still interested in Judaism, Islam, or the Baha'i Faith I recommend looking at them from all sides. Despite what others have said, if you decide to convert to Judaism you can not believe in Jesus as a prophet. This view is not held by any mainstream movement of Judaism. If you do believe in Jesus as a prophet and messiah then look at Islam or the Baha'i Faith.

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Re: Belief in God, but not Christ. - July 28th 2013, 12:06 PM

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I think you might mean "Yeshua" for Jesus in Hebrew. The tetragrammaton is pronounced by some Christians as "Yahweh."

Anna, if you're still interested in Judaism, Islam, or the Baha'i Faith I recommend looking at them from all sides. Despite what others have said, if you decide to convert to Judaism you can not believe in Jesus as a prophet. This view is not held by any mainstream movement of Judaism. If you do believe in Jesus as a prophet and messiah then look at Islam or the Baha'i Faith.
Baha'i sounds as close as I will ever come to giving my beliefs a proper name. Judaism seems too complicated, and honestly, I'm terrified of wearing a hijab if were to convert to the Muslim faith. I live in the ultra-paranoid Bible Belt. It would guarantee me no job after I get out of college, I'd probably be disowned, and I'd not be surprised if someone shot me. It's terrible that that's the way it is, but I'd fear for my life as a hijabi.


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