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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Unhappy Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 12th 2013, 11:18 PM

When babies die, do they go to Hell because they were never saved?

Why do people go to Hell if Jesus already died for our sins?

What about people in other countries? A lot of the world has never even heard of Christianity. Why do they deserve to go to Hell? That's like Christians dying and then finding out that what we were believing was wrong and that a religion we had never known to exist was right and us going to their version of Hell.

If God loves us all, why would he send people to Hell?

Why should LGBT people go to Hell? I like girls. What should I do? Force myself to be with a guy when I'm not happy? If God loves us, shouldn't he want us to be happy?

Some countries will kill you if you aren't their religion. Why should God send them to Hell?

If the Bible has been edited so many times, how do we know that it's true? The original Bible could've said that LGBT is completely fine, but someone who was homophobic could've edited it to say otherwise.

It seems like only the extremely pure Christians go to Heaven and that they're like some VIP group and the rest of the world burns in Hell?

What about the really good people who weren't Christian? Did God send Mohammed Gahndi (or however you spell his name) to Hell?

Why can't he just sit down with the nonchristians when they die and explain things to them and except them into Heaven unless they still don't believe in him?

Why can't we just do what we want as long as we don't stray from Christianity or harm others?

If he loves us, why is the Earth a wasteland filled with sadness and tragedy? If he's so powerful, can't he change all of that?

Why should you go to Hell for suicide? The people who commit were depressed. If God is so powerful, he could've changed that as well as the bad things in their life.

Why are so many Christians so hateful!? Christ Wire is an example of this. Type in any band that's not a Christian band and you'll find hate.

What is the right thing to believe? It seems that everyone believes in something different. But which one will get me to Heaven?

Why can't he just except us for who we are?????

I think I am done with my questions. I'm pretty mad at this point. I am a Christian. I love God, but right now, Christianity does not sound like a very good religion at all. There's so many points of injustice. Some one please give me reasonable answers. If I can have reasonable answers to all of these, i'll be happy. If not then I don't know. Please don't tell me to ask God. I've tried to talk to God in many situations, but he never seems to be there for me. Is his voice going to shout down to me from Heaven? No. Is he going to post a reply to this thread. No. I actually do believe Wiccans when they say that Wicca is the most peaceful religion. Christians are many times, full of hate. They hung so many people that they thought were witches and they have killed so many people. Wiccans are so peaceful. And their deities don't seem to judge them.
   
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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 01:36 AM

So, you are basically asking why do people go to hell, If God doesn't want us too.
Well, God doesn't send people to hell. You send yourself there. Heaven is a place for people who want to be with God, and God, being loving as he is, doesn't want any of his children to go to hell. That's why he encourage's us to spread his word, as it would make us love him more, and make us want to be with him, in heaven. Remember that God has done all he can to keep you out of hell, and still allow you free will. So, about people born in other countries where Christianity has little hold there. God is understanding, He understands that those who suffer will seek to end the suffering, so i am in the belief that suicides don't lead to hell. God understands that the children didn't have a chance to love him, so I am in the belief that babies don't go to hell. Same goes here. God understands that people born in a country that is either Hindu or Buddhist will be Hindu or Buddhist. Some will say that God meant for the child to be born in a country that has mostly polytheistic beliefs. I should also mention that Allah is just another name for God.
I am no mans fool though, fellow Christians can be rude to others, and it is an injustice indeed. Every human fall's under the trap of sin, and there is no way to escape it. Just remember that even though there is injustices in Christianity, there is no injustice in God.
May God bless you.
Also, please feel free to PM any questions you have about God. I came here to give you answers, not to debate.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 02:45 AM

personaly, i don't think babies go to hell. they haven't done anything wrong and they aren't punished for their parents sins, so they go to heaven (im pretty sure)

i am also a bit strange, because i don't think that everyone who believes in another God goes to hell. if you look at a lot of religions, they are very similar. perhaps we all worship the same God, but humans feel the need to point fingers and say "we're better than you, we're going to heaven and you aren't".

honestly, i go to school with a bunch of uber-christian kids, and once you get them started, you really wish you hadn't. none of it makes sense. you have to decide for yourself if you believe in God or in all of the things that people tell you about God. its a personal choice.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 07:41 AM

All of these questions bring me to a conclusion that religion is largely damaging to today's society; I find religion to hold back progress culturally and scientifically, which opposes me to it somewhat.
You've listed just a few points, there are many more.

I don't want to force my beliefs upon you, but just consider for a moment: what if God doesn't exist? Is that not possible? And, I mean, why not? It's not as if there's any evidence for any deity, let alone any specific god. Would I not be fair in saying that the only reason you believe in God is because you were taught to when you were young?
You've said yourself, you've never 'spoken to God' - that impossibility would be explained if He didn't exist - surely you'd never have thought that the Bible was actually true if you hadn't been told that since you could understand language? I'm not saying that the people who told you it were deliberately misleading you...but what if they're wrong?

You don't have to believe in (let alone love) God if you really don't. It's hard to question your own beliefs, but consider whether you're really comfortable believing in something you find hateful, which causes and historically has caused condemnation, torture and murder of innocent people. Whether you really believe in God, or whether you're just going along with it because it's easier than thinking about the alternative (because it is; admitting that one doesn't have the answers is difficult, especially when you then want to try and find them). And maybe try this; you clearly have a sense of morality - even questioning the Bible this far for morality is courageous - so you may score relatively high on this.

So, my message: THINK.
Think for yourself, and try to forget all your biases and presumptions before you do it. See where it leads you, and what you believe for yourself.
Good luck, and my reasonable answer to every single question: 'God probably doesn't exist' - infact, God is a human creation, made because we didn't have the answers, and because people knew they could use it to manipulate people and get away with being hateful to others. But I have a better idea: let's find the answers properly, and let's be nice to each other. We don't need God...because God is, simply, us.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 09:52 AM

Hi JasmAAAAHHH!

I hope you're feeling a little less mad!

I'm a Christian too. I believe very much in God and Jesus, etc. But I am NOT 'religious'. I have the exact same questions that you have. And truth be told - I'm probably angry at God [And the whole 'religion thing' connected to Christianity] more often than I am not. But I think that's OK. A lot of people are hurt by 'god' and decide that he doesn't exist. I just couldn't do that. For I knew in my heart - or at least believed in my heart - that WE [as in 'humans since forever'] have been LIED to by people who want to control us in some way. And what better way control people than to tell them that YOU know what GOD thinks and feels, etc. The Bible tells us that 'God is love'. That's my anchor. And whenever someone [NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE] says something that makes me think to myself, "I don't feel any LOVE in what they are saying", I choose NOT to accept that they speak for God. [Does that make any sense?]

Think about this..... If you were the 'Devil' and you wanted to keep people away from God - wouldn't you send in a whole army of 'Christians' who really aren't 'Christians' at all? Think about that for a minute or two.

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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 10:28 AM

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Originally Posted by CanadaCraig View Post
Think about this..... If you were the 'Devil' and you wanted to keep people away from God - wouldn't you send in a whole army of 'Christians' who really aren't 'Christians' at all? Think about that for a minute or two.
And if you were, like, creating a belief system with an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God with the purpose of manipulation or just to fill in gaps in knowledge, the creation of a satanic character would be a great way to explain away the bad things that happen on Earth too, yeah?
Shame that Christianity kinda messed its one up, since God was apparently the one who created the Devil, despite being omniscient, and seems incapable of stopping the Devil despite being omnipotent...


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 12:07 PM

Each religion is flawed, some are simply practically closer to what they call for.
Christianity, for me, was always the religion of lies and misunderstanding (2nd only after islam) which was one of the reasons I turned back.
What can I say, it's an endless topic, everybody has it's own opinion and nobody is 100% right.
What is funny, the most religious ones are always the ones to criticize the most. If you can't follow your other shitty believes, why do you interfere in other's lifes?


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 01:35 PM

Every one of you have great points. It is true that at a young age I felt forced to be Christian. I had always saw it as 'there is a big man in the sky who creates things and if I don't believe in him and do everything right, I'm going to Hell." Adam has some great points though. When I was Athiest, I had the sane view. But I honestly do want to believe in God and believe that he loves me abd isn't just some big man in the sky that sits there and judges us. I have felt like that before. I became Christian again after my family had to stay with the preacher from our churches homeless ministry because our time in the shelter was up. I read a bible that someone donated and we would go to this house thing and I was allowed to pick out a doll and I gave them Bible names and I hung pictures of crosses on the walls. I actually did feel like God loved me. But I did have my doubts in the back of my mind. And I do this thing where when reality seems too harsh to bear, I delude myself. Right now I am telling myself that I can create a band and save the world. I don't even know if I've ever REALLY loved God, or if it was just an anchor to cling onto. I thought that I have felt God's love before. Like when they asked for everyone having suicidal thoughts to cone up. I didn't even pay attention to all the people looking at me like I was crazy. I just stood and sung my heart out. That was when I got saved. I want to feel like that again. Truthfully, I'm trying really desperately to believe that he's real.
   
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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 02:42 PM

I think you've perhaps touched on somewhat extremely relevant there in that true belief is completely different to hoping something exists.

Who doesn't like the thought of having an invisible, all-powerful force rooting for you?

But that doesn't mean that God exists, unfortunately. Or maybe that's not unfortunate. Because, of course, that begs the question: what is there to support me? And, more importantly, where did that feeling of love
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoUcAnCaLlMeInSaNe View Post
I actually did feel like God loved me.
come from, if not God?
The answer to that, I think (and which I find more comforting), is humanity. Aren't we amazing? Just stop and think for a moment about the insignificance of absolutely everything. We are tiny, tiny specks of carbon on a tiny speck of carbon, floating round a tiny piece of hydrogen, in a vast, vast galaxy...and in the unimaginably big universe which we're in...there are thousands of these galaxies with millions of these lumps of carbon in them.
And yet, despite the magnitude of everything, we, humanity, have progressed...so far. Look at us now. And think what potential we have. Pretty amazing things, humans, huh?
You're one of them.

Science is what makes us progress. Science is awesome. And best of all, science can be just as comforting as religion.
If you want to believe in God, you may; I'm not going to say you can't. But think...do you actually believe it? If not, then why pretend?

Trust me - all that support 'from God' is actually from your fellow human beings. And they don't need God to keep being that kind, that's just it has happened to manifest itself. You are an amazing human being - you don't need God, you don't need religion. Think on it.




Disclaimer: This post is admittedly pretty biased in favour of my own views. Sorry.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 06:13 PM

The Earth is a wasteland. Humanity is another word for destructive monsters. I hate science because it's associated with reality and that is not somewhere that I want to be. Humans kill each other, cut down the rainforest, polute the air and water, slaughter children, bomb things, and the list goes on. That is not a species that I would like myself to be associated with. Humans have ruined the world and built up a kingdom of lies. Not to bring a bunch pessimism, it's just what I feel is true. Thank you for trying to help me though
   
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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 13th 2013, 09:27 PM

As wastelands go, Earth is pretty beautiful, don't you think?

And you're right that humans make mistakes. We do. But, really, that's something you're going to need to accept. Maybe, though, making a difference - combating the effects of these mistakes, learning to ensure fewer happen in the future - is a better idea than ignoring reality. Sadly enough, reality is harsh.

That is pessimistic, though. Humans make mistakes. Yes. Humans achieve astounding things, and enhance the beauty of other places. Also true.

My outlook is this: humans (and science, which is pretty much everything we are) are awesome. We make mistakes. So, we work to overcome the challenges that these bring. We do wonderful things. Amazing things. Just thinking about what humanity has achieved is mind-blowing, but more than that is imagining what we could achieve. But we won't by hiding from reality. If you don't like something, change it.

Humans cutting down rainforests? Join with groups of others and campaign against it. Pollution? Help reduce your pollution levels. If everyone works together, it makes a difference. So be the first to make that difference.

You list very real concerns (which, pertaining to the original post, are to my mind, reasons against and omnibenevolent, omnipotent God), and it's important to do something about those: get up and do it, others will follow the lead. But the amazing things we can achieve, especially working collaboratively are stunning and, in their own way, beautiful. Whether you like it or not, you are a human. Make of the opportunity what you will.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 14th 2013, 01:27 AM

I know I came here to give answers, but I have to give my opinion on what's going on.

Adam has ask why can't God defeat Satan? Well, the moment Jesus died was the moment Satan was defeated. He also said that God had made Satan. Wrong, God made Lucifer, which betrayed God and became Satan. He also expressed a very questionable opinion about how God is a man made deity. Which can't be proven or disproved Historically or scientifically, but yet again so can't God. Jesus Christ existence, however, is a different story. Each religion has a founder, someone who went to the street's to express their beliefs despite being viewed as a psychopath or a heretic (Which, every single one was thought to be). Abraham founded Judaism, and played a part in the old testament. Mohammad founded Islam, and played a part in the book of Islam. Jesus Christ founded Christianity, and played a HUGE part in the new testament, and since Jesus is considered to be the son of God, I find that it historically prove's God's existence.

That being said, I do agree that injustices happen within Religion, but by no means does Religion need to be wiped out from the face of the earth. There are good thins in Religion that are meant to be kept. There are injustices within Atheism, but by no means does Atheism need to be wiped out from the face of the earth. There are also good things in Atheism that are meant to be kept. Instead of punishing everything, punish injustice. Remember that everything can be fixed, and as long as there is something that needs to be fixed, good people will be there to do it. Hero's and monster's are no fantasy, Constantly every day they fight. Like in fantasy though, the hero always wins. The head of the demon roles on the floor of freedom and justice. Yes, There is injustices within Religion, but people like me and Adam, who might not see eye-to-eye on most things, still have the courage to challenge those who dishonor others. I always wanted to call myself the Wild Challenger, because I challenge those who are dishonest, low-moralized, and Deluded. Also known as the people who have not been challenged for quite some time. Remember that when monsters pollute our lives. There will always be a hero, ready to rise to the challenge.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 14th 2013, 10:24 AM

I'm sorry...Jesus proves Christianity? If Jesus was the instigator (and he was, by the way, a human) then he was the one making the hypothesis. No-one has ever proved it, but since it's your proposition that God does exist, the burden of proof is upon you. Therefore, it would be illogical for me to believe you until you can give me some evidence. And, as we know, the evidence needs to be able to be reproduced consistently, at any time. So 'God touched my heart' or whatever doesn't really count.

I wouldn't say that the idea that humans created all the gods is questionable. I find even the idea that of all the hundreds and thousands of deities, people think they've got it right, a product of incredible arrogance. If we think of how many gods a monotheistic thinks are man-made, to how many an atheist thinks are man-made...ONE. Why, of everything, would one particular god 'happen' to be right?
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What are the odds,/That of history's endless parade of gods,/That the God you just happen to be taught to believe in,/Is the actual god...?
Satan clearly hasn't been defeated if Craig's point is to be upheld. Bad things still happen. I mean, is question that morality of 'hell' anyway. How is that supposed to be a comforting idea of justice? It's not very helpful to mercilessly torture people. And I'd also question the logic of a person dying making up for every bad thing ever...if they accept the 'evidence' written using primitive human methods, by people, half a century after anything, who hardly knew the guy.

And God did make Satan (well, assuming the existence if either); he's omniscient, remember? He supposedly knows everything that will happen. When he made Lucifer, he knew exactly what the future would hold. Unless, of course, Lucifer is more powerful than God, in which case, why not worship him?

Atheism, also, isn't a religion. There aren't 'injustices within Atheism' since it doesn't have any implied meaning of justice. You could use 'humans,' but that includes religious people too. Because, sure, there are injustices within the human race. I'd like you to point, though, to any time where any Atheists have committed atrocities anything like those caused by religion.
Religion need not be 'wiped from the planet'. But we'd probably progress more without people blindly protesting about things like stem cell research, equal marriage, etc. Religion has held back humanity quite long enough, it's time for science and knowledge to get going again.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 14th 2013, 07:09 PM

I don't want a religious debate. I just want simple answers. And I hate science. Sorry, I just do. Science is limiting. It says that I can't fly or walk on water. And it says animals can't talk (like a human) and it says that I can't do this and that and it sucks. Kraziee65 has some good points.
   
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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 14th 2013, 08:02 PM

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess it was my fault for trying to argue with Adam. Well with that being said I just hope you don't give up on humanity. I have a love for humanity, I love meeting new people, and seeing new faces. It always breaks my heart when I see others hurting each other because of pride, greed, and selfish desires. Both Religion and Science bring bad things into the world, but it's nothing we can't fix. Nothing deserve's to be destroyed, Everything deserve's to be fixed. The world used to be horrible, a shattered shell of what it once was. The garden of Eden was nothing but a myth. Yet, God fixed it.
Same goes here, the world is not as broken as that time, but bad things still happen. We build castles with pillars of sand, fortresses made of dirt, just to hide us from what we fear most. It's nothing we can't fix, we can fix everything. Just like God, fixed the world. As a word of advice, don't think, learn. One of humanities injustice is that we think too much and feel to little. The world would be a happier place if we felt for one another, rather than thinking for our own. Learn about culture, religion, language, history, and all you can about others. Then you will understand them, no longer would you be afraid of them. No longer would you think that you are better than them. I want to see this world grow into something even better that it is right now, though that might seem foolish. It's better to dream, than not to dream at all.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 14th 2013, 08:03 PM

Religion and simple answers don't really mix together that well, I'm afraid.

You don't have to like science for it to work, so that's fine. But science has allowed humans to fly, it has given us knowledge of non-Newtonian liquids (liquids you can walk on), it has allowed us to analyse what animals do and the noises they make, and it tells us that some animals do have the ability to communicate as humans do. You are science; science is you. It's not as simple as just ignoring it, unfortunately.
Science - and I'm sorry to point-blank disagree - isn't limiting. Human knowledge is limiting. Science is about removing those limits.
As with many things: if you don't like it, change it. Science lets you do that. Praying doesn't.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 15th 2013, 03:33 AM

Thank you. You were both very helpful I guess I don't really hate science. I mean, there are things that I like about it (like psychology) and now that I think about it, I do realize that science isn't limiting. A lot of things that are science do interest me, but I tend to forget that they are science. Like, when I think of science, I think of anatomy and outerspace, which I don't really like. But there are some awesome things in science. And I now I realize that the world has come a long way. I mean, a long time ago, a ruler could just kill whoever and not get in trouble. And the US used to have slavery. But that doesn't happen anymore. I think that I am going to stay with the Christian faith though. I would like to thank both of you (and everyone else who has responded too) you have helped me a lot. Thank you
   
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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 15th 2013, 04:30 PM

Well, if I've inspired you even a little about science, and made you think, I'm very glad. I wish you the very best of luck in your decision.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 15th 2013, 07:20 PM

Thank you
   
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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 16th 2013, 12:05 AM

I'm glad you still have hope. Even the most common of men & women can grow into the most noble of hero's. May God bless you, and help you to overcome your weaknesses as he has done the same to me.

Live a happy life, goodbye.


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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 17th 2013, 12:07 PM

Bit late to this particular party, but what I would say is this: the core message of the Christian religion can be summed up in three phrases - God is love, love the Lord your God, and love your neighbour as yourself. That's it. So with the questions that you posed, my suggestion would be to look at each of them and work out whether they tally with the ideas of God being love or acting in love towards God or your neighbour. If they don't (which most of them don't), then odds are that regardless of their source they're not in keeping with Christianity. People come up with a lot of rules, dogma and creeds alongside these - I'm a Catholic and we're infamous for it - but it doesn't mean any of them are right. We're still working out the answers, and it'd be a fool who claims to know everything there is to know about God's views on one particular topic or another. Contrary to popular perception, being a Christian isn't about turning up to church on Sunday, bowing/kneeling and obeying - it's about trying to find the answers, questioning and testing authority and actually living your life in a way which shows God's love in action. Which brings me nicely onto my next point...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam the Fish View Post
And if you were, like, creating a belief system with an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God with the purpose of manipulation or just to fill in gaps in knowledge, the creation of a satanic character would be a great way to explain away the bad things that happen on Earth too, yeah?
Shame that Christianity kinda messed its one up, since God was apparently the one who created the Devil, despite being omniscient, and seems incapable of stopping the Devil despite being omnipotent...
Actually, creating a belief system of any kind which places a deity in a position of superior authority over humanity is a pretty bad starting point for the purposes of manipulating the masses. Part of the reason why dictatorships in China, North Korea etc have survived as long as they have is because their ruling parties have the final word, and so there are limited avenues for challenging their authority. Having a God figure outside of that framework actually provides people with the strongest weapon against authoritarian figures - namely, hope - and as the various denominations of Christianity proves (among others) it's difficult to hold people to one account on this topic. If you want to manipulate the masses or fill gaps in knowledge, there are much better tools for the job than religion. Religion leaves too many unanswered questions, as you yourself point out.

In addition, pitching religion and science as opposing forces is a bit of a faux pas. I'm religious, but I have a lot of respect for and interest in the sciences and the progress it can bring about. Equally, there's broadly a 50-50 split in the scientific community between religious and non-religious, so either there's an impressive bit of self-deception going on or else it's actually not how you portray it to be. Science does indeed provide us with a vast amount of knowledge and ways in which to do things; however, what it does not provide (and nor is it intended to) is guidance on whether we should do things. The existence of philosophy as a field of study is proof of that (and contrary to Professor Stephen Hawking's claims, it isn't dead), and among many contenders religion is one possible way of providing guidance. It may not be the best way, or even a particularly good way sometimes, but it is a way and such a way is needed. Albert Einstein among others recognised this, and his essay from the 1930s on the subject is worth reading.


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: Injustice In The Christian Faith - December 17th 2013, 01:54 PM

Quote:
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Bit late to this particular party....."
Hi Dave!!

I hope you're OK.

I would be very happy to sign my name to everything you just said.

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!




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