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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 12th 2014, 06:42 PM

Hey,

The title says it all really. I've seen the question asked the other way around to atheists so just wondered what any religious people would say.

For the record I don't know how God would be able to be disproved but let just say science did it, would you be willing to accept this? Why/why not?


   
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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 12th 2014, 08:30 PM

If the idea of God was indeed disproved - although I would add that expecting science to do so is misunderstanding the purpose of science in my opinion - then yes I would be willing to admit I was wrong. I would imagine the same would be said for the majority of people, leaving aside the diehard fanatics who will never let go of their ideas no matter what evidence is put before them. Although for me it does raise the intriguing question of what exactly would amount to such proof, given that various attempts have been made over the years with mixed results.


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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 12th 2014, 09:35 PM

I don't know how someone could possibly prove it to be false, I am a Christian and I believe that God is indeed real. I mean, if you look in history there is literally facts about the life of Jesus, although some people may say that's not true or that doesn't mean he had the power of God and the Holy Spirit. I believe it all though. I mean, I used to believe everything in the Bible is true, like Adam and Eve, until I found out that technically there is no saying that they were real people. I mean, its pretty crazy and rather unimaginable or possible that God created the world in 7 days. What has been passed on through religion may or may not be all truth, but that also shows that there is room for misinterpretation, or imperfections.

With that all being said, there are always going to be people that believe God is real, and that God isn't real. There are going to be people that want to prove it wrong and will do anything to do so, and there is going to be people that will do everything in their will to prove God's existence. But what kind of Christian would I be if I let some non-believers proof tear me down out of my beliefs. A non-believers proof isn't proof to me, just like a believers proof isn't proof to them.

I don't think I could ever say that I was wrong. I mean, I don't see any sort of science, art, test, or miracle that could prove God being fake. I don't want to see that day, to be honest, when everyone admits that there is no God. I really don't want to see that day.
   
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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 12th 2014, 09:59 PM

The issue is that many people's gods (eg. Abrahamic, using the Bible as its source) can be proved wrong, but people still don't see sense. You might not be able to disprove ANY deity, but specifics can be.


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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 13th 2014, 11:35 AM

People have to believe in something.
If God is disproved, people will find something else to worship after some generations because they have to believe in something (well most of them). Thats just how it is and how it was, and how it will always be.
I have my own beliefs and i dont judge other beliefs until extremists of that and that religion come at my door for me to just start believing in something.
I once slammed the door to them, just because they were so brainwashed that i couldnt stand them...
   
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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 13th 2014, 11:41 AM

My personal point of view is that knowledge of God is not falsifiable. Simply put, you can't prove God exists, you can't prove she doesn't.

Relevant blog posts of mine (to save a stack of extra writing):
An Agnostic Christmas
Faith and the Scientific Method


Feel free to email/PM/VM/whatever me if you want. I'll answer as soon as I can.

New blog - http://www.trueartisangsty.com/
Trying to keep it updated more or less daily as I write.

Last edited by Mahray; January 13th 2014 at 11:42 AM. Reason: Much prettier links.
   
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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 13th 2014, 05:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam the Fish View Post
The issue is that many people's gods (eg. Abrahamic, using the Bible as its source) can be proved wrong, but people still don't see sense. You might not be able to disprove ANY deity, but specifics can be.
See, I'm not sure this argument stacks up. Certainly, my (admittedly brief) forays into philosophy of religion didn't come to that conclusion - problems certainly exist in the case of all major deities (Abrahamic being the most profile in popular culture in this regard), but rather than it being a case of people "not seeing sense" the reality tends to be people come up with responses to said problems, which are then challenged and counter-challenged and so on. Thus far, no one has struck a "knockout blow" in the debate, or come close to doing so, on either side. The problem of evil doesn't count, I should add, given that is one such area going through challenge and counter-challenge.


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 13th 2014, 07:26 PM

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Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
See, I'm not sure this argument stacks up. Certainly, my (admittedly brief) forays into philosophy of religion didn't come to that conclusion - problems certainly exist in the case of all major deities (Abrahamic being the most profile in popular culture in this regard), but rather than it being a case of people "not seeing sense" the reality tends to be people come up with responses to said problems, which are then challenged and counter-challenged and so on. Thus far, no one has struck a "knockout blow" in the debate, or come close to doing so, on either side. The problem of evil doesn't count, I should add, given that is one such area going through challenge and counter-challenge.
I would rather disagree. If we start with the contradictions in the Bible (and I'm assuming that the majority of believers in the Abrahamic god do so primarily because of the Bible, or some sort of derivation). Let's see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Nope. Definitely not. This immediately has philosophical failures too, as if the Earth is the centre of everything. It isn't.

I've heard various arguments to solve the scientific travesty that is Creation.
Some say that science is obviously wrong and we should instead blindly believe in the Bible.
Some say that it's more metaphorical, in that God apparently oversaw the creation of the universe, over many thousands of years in the order of Genesis.
Some say it didn't happen, but represents God's power.

All defences have their flaws, some more obviously than others.

That's an easy target, relatively, but the problem is that the Bible is littered with contradictions. Having "faith" is questionable to me; not even knowing what to have faith in is rather fundamentally flawed. No omniscient God would have such oversights as demonstrated in the Bible. It's inherently unreliable because of content, let alone any other issues.

But if the Bible defines God, in the same way that one might define "bachelor" as an unmarried person, yet the Bible tends more towards "look at this bachelor, five years happily married" then the definition is clearly flawed. There is no such thing as a married bachelor; as such, the contradictions in the Bible would lead one to the same conclusion. There is no such thing.

Whatever circular, circumstantial workarounds might be given, it would take a lot to convince me that I should overlook the serious flaws in even the basics of belief (ie. what Christians should actually be believing in) in the Bible.


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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 13th 2014, 07:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam the Fish View Post
I would rather disagree. If we start with the contradictions in the Bible (and I'm assuming that the majority of believers in the Abrahamic god do so primarily because of the Bible, or some sort of derivation). Let's see...

Nope. Definitely not. This immediately has philosophical failures too, as if the Earth is the centre of everything. It isn't.
Before pointing out a supposed "contradiction" in the Bible, you might want to enlighten us as to which translation from the original Hebrew you are using. There are 3 possible contenders. In addition, certain translations of the codified Bible use "heavens" rather than "heaven", which again puts a different meaning on the phrase. Besides these points, you have thus far asserted a contradiction in the phrase without actually explaining what it is - unless there is something quite obvious I am missing (which at 8:40pm on a work night is always possible), the phrase simply makes a statement that God created heaven (or the heavens) and the Earth. Quite how those two contradict each other is a curious proposition. Merely asserting it is "wrong" based on your conception of how the Universe came into being does not make it contradictory - for one, see the first cause argument.

Incidentally, I see nothing in the phrase to suggest the Earth being placed at the centre of everything - it's quite understandable for a group of humans, having no knowledge of worlds beyond their own, to make primary reference to the planet they have knowledge of. To suggest otherwise is reading between the lines, I would suggest, and therein lies observer bias. Proceed with caution would be my advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam the Fish View Post
I've heard various arguments to solve the scientific travesty that is Creation.
Some say that science is obviously wrong and we should instead blindly believe in the Bible.
Some say that it's more metaphorical, in that God apparently oversaw the creation of the universe, over many thousands of years in the order of Genesis.
Some say it didn't happen, but represents God's power.

All defences have their flaws, some more obviously than others.


So, by the "scientific travesty that is Creation", I assume you refer to the idea of the planet and its life forms developing in accordance with broadly accepted geological theory and theories of evolution (barring the odd hiccup along the way, I grant), in a timescale which is most likely allegorical rather than literal? I'm not sure I would describe it as such - if anything, I would consider it a pretty impressive feat that people with such limited scientific knowledge got it pretty close to the mark. Same with (going into a different faith for a moment) the Hindu vedas describing a cycle broadly comparable with the concepts of the Big Bang and the Big Crunch. Whether they were just lucky guesses or actually divinely inspired is up to the beholder, but describing such depictions as "travesties" based on current knowledge sounds more like an attempt to follow the "ignorant ancestors" fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam the Fish View Post
That's an easy target, relatively, but the problem is that the Bible is littered with contradictions. Having "faith" is questionable to me; not even knowing what to have faith in is rather fundamentally flawed. No omniscient God would have such oversights as demonstrated in the Bible. It's inherently unreliable because of content, let alone any other issues.


Thus far, you have claimed contradiction after contradiction - not only in the events of the Bible, but in the very conception of God itself - without actually describing any of these contradictions. That is not good debating etiquette. If you wish to convince others of your argument, some supporting statements would be appreciated. One statement which does not necessarily advance such a contradiction isn't sufficient, I would suggest.

Quote:
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But if the Bible defines God, in the same way that one might define "bachelor" as an unmarried person, yet the Bible tends more towards "look at this bachelor, five years happily married" then the definition is clearly flawed. There is no such thing as a married bachelor; as such, the contradictions in the Bible would lead one to the same conclusion. There is no such thing.
Again, in order to consider which contradictions it is you refer to, it would help for you to be specific as to which aspects you are talking about. With all due respect, I have other matters to concern myself with than trawling through thousands of pages trying to second-guess what you mean, and on the evidence of your first example I may struggle to find them in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam the Fish View Post
Whatever circular, circumstantial workarounds might be given, it would take a lot to convince me that I should overlook the serious flaws in even the basics of belief (ie. what Christians should actually be believing in) in the Bible.
In light of this, I hope you will appreciate it when I say that in its current form, your argument puts me in the same position. I'm perfectly happy to consider specific points you wish to make, but sweeping statements don't really do it for me.

As an aside, if you'd prefer to conduct a discussion by PM so that we don't entirely derail this thread I'm happy to do so.


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Quote:
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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
RIP Nick
   
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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 14th 2014, 01:36 AM

The title of this thread is mis-titled. God cannot be disproven. It's up to those stating that god exists to prove that he exists. If you make a positive claim, you have to provide evidence.


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Re: If God was disproved would you be willing to admit you were wrong? - January 14th 2014, 06:02 PM

I believe there is no way to disprove God's existence. Disprove the Bible, perhaps, but I don't believe that would disprove God's existence. As a result, I wouldn't be able to "admit" I was wrong.
   
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