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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 02:13 AM

Read this before posting!

-This is a civilized debate. As such, all standard rules of civility and mutual respect apply. Please be nice, treat all members with respect, and abide by the forum rules at all times.
-Use of ad hominem as an argument technique is not allowed. Ad hominem means trying to discredit a person or what they say with personal reasons; ie "But none of what you say can even count because you are a Buddhist anyway."

-Anyone is invited to share their beliefs and express their thoughts in this thread. However, anyone who does so is posting voluntarily, by their own choice. This is to prevent anyone from being accused of attempting to shove their beliefs down others' throats. If you feel as though this thread is a personal attack on your own belief system, then please do not post as such. Post rationally and with a clear head.
-If a situation arises where one person puts forth a claim, it is that person's responsibility to provide evidence to prove the claim, not anyone else's responsibility to provide evidence to disprove it. If evidence to prove the claim is not brought forth, the claim can be disregarded. This is called the burden of proof.
-If you use facts, please cite your sources.


Topic of debate: Whether or not God exists

For the purpose of this thread, "God" is defined as an omnipotent (meaning, can do anything) being and the creator of all the universe. If you must attribute any particular religion towards the definition of God in order to better express your thoughts, attribute Christianity. If your belief system includes a different version of God than that of the Christian God, please take note of the fact that this thread focuses on the Christian idea of a God when posting.

------------------------------------------------

Now, then. I'll start off with challenging two aspects of God: Omnipotence and existence.

First, omnipotence. I have a simple question: "Can God create a rock that is so heavy he cannot lift it?"

There are two possible ways to answer this question:
-Yes, he can, because an omnipotent God can create anything. However, this means that there now exists a rock that cannot be lifted by any power in the universe (and which, the assumption is, remains unliftable). This limits God's power because he cannot lift the rock, meaning he is not truly omnipotent.
-No, he cannot create such a rock, because an omnipotent God can lift anything, and as such, it is impossible for such a rock to exist. However, this also limits God's power, as there is something he cannot create. Thusly, he is not truly omnipotent.

To dispute God's existence, I would like to invoke the burden of proof upon those who claim he exists, meaning believers in God. Please note that this is a response to the general claim that God exists, and not a claim unto itself; therefore, the burden of proof is not on me.

I will also point out that if God is not omnipotent, as described in the definition of God, then he does not exist.

   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 02:39 AM

You stand corrected. Your argument against omnipotence is invalid for Christianity, as the Bible never claims that God is omnipotent. In fact, it specifies otherwise: God CANNOT lie (Titus 1:2). God CANNOT sin (James 1:13). Omnipotence as it relates to the Christian God does not mean that God can do all things. God cannot do anything contrary to His holiness. Besides, there are TWO definitions of omnipotent: having unlimited power OR having very great power. The definitions of omnipotence do NOT include the ability to do impossible or irrational things (like form a spherical triangle.) And as the Bible never mentions the word omnipotent: argument one, omnipotence, has become irrelevant. Most arguments against God of this nature were dropped long ago by the experienced debater.

As arguments for the existence of God (the burden of proof) lie mostly in phenomena that are possibly, albeit unlikely, caused naturally, the only remaining argument is faith and such similar arguments based on religious texts, etc.

Yes, it is far easier to prove things wrong than to prove them right.



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Last edited by eunoia; January 13th 2009 at 03:33 AM. Reason: Clarity
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 03:02 AM

I belive and I know god exist but for those who don't well,you can found out for real when you guys die but for me,no proof is needed because all the proof are around us.You just have to see it clearly
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 03:08 AM

Quick reply to noveras:

If the proof is all around us, then please cite examples of such.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 03:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Quick reply to noveras:

If the proof is all around us, then please cite examples of such.
Your self,mountains,sky,animals and millions more.We just need to open our mind.Those who rejected the existence of god always claim them self to be open minded and free thinker but they closed their mind completely in something call god
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 03:39 AM

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Your self,mountains,sky,animals and millions more.We just need to open our mind.Those who rejected the existence of god always claim them self to be open minded and free thinker but they closed their mind completely in something call god
Humans, mountains, the sky, animals, etc do not qualify as proof that God exists. Other theories concerning how those things came to be exist; therefore it is illogical to simply assume that they were put in place by a supreme being.

@Jessie: Still putting my reply together.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 03:40 AM

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Originally Posted by Jer View Post
@Jessie: Still putting my reply together.
Take your time. :]



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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 03:48 AM

Apparently the mistake is mine in defining the Christian God as omnipotent, when a web search claims otherwise (with exceptions). As such I withdraw my claim that because a Christian God is omnipotent and omnipotence is impossible, that God is impossible.

Quote:
As arguments for the existence of God (the burden of proof) lie mostly in phenomena that are possibly, albeit unlikely, caused naturally, the only remaining argument is faith and such similar arguments based on religious texts, etc.
If there exist arguments against the existence of God that lie on the plane of logical thought, and if, as you say, there exist only arguments for his existence that are centered on belief, then you are essentially saying that there is no way to prove God exists, as belief is the only way to make him exist. This is, in my eyes, a form of circular logic, which is a fallacy:

-Because God exists, I believe in him.
-I believe in God, therefore God exists.

Quote:
Yes, it is far easier to prove things wrong than to prove them right.
That still does not make it my responsibility to prove that God doesn't exist (it simply states that proving something wrong is easier) unless and until indisputable evidence is brought up to prove God's existence. At that point the burden of proof shifts to me to disprove the evidence, and therefore, the statement that God exists. Until then anyone here who makes the claim that God exists must supply evidence of such. Extraordinary claims do, after all, require extraordinary evidence.

Last edited by Jer; January 13th 2009 at 03:48 AM. Reason: Clarity.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 03:56 AM

You do realize that this thread is about over, now?

I'll add more to this, momentarily.



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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 04:14 AM

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Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
You do realize that this thread is about over, now?

I'll add more to this, momentarily.
*waits*

Tennn.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 05:09 AM

It is extraordinarily easy to disprove every argument against the existence of God. It is much harder to prove in the existence of God. No worries, though, I had great fun in my philosophy course.


Let us begin. I offer you, first, this:

1. Every being (that exists or ever did exist) is either a dependent being or self-existent being.
2. Not every being can be a dependent being.
3. Therefore, there exists a self-existent being.


And, now, this one is great fun:

1. God is the greatest power which can be imagined.
2. If God does not exist, then He is not the greatest power which can be imagined.
3. Since God is the greatest power which can be imagined, and His non-existence would mean He is not the greatest power which can be imagined, it must be concluded that God exists outside of the imagination.
4. Thus, God exists.


The orderliness of nature:

1. Nature, without fail, is ordered. There is no part of nature unordered.
2. Even among parts of nature which are unaware (not conscious) such as plant life, there is order. All parts of nature work towards a goal, even if unaware.
3. Unaware existence cannot work towards a goal.
4. There must, therefore, be an aware and ordered Being guiding those parts of nature.



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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 05:17 AM

Faith is the key word.
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 05:20 AM

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Faith is the key word.
Even faith happens for a reason.
Why do you have faith in this specific God if there is no evidence?
Why not have faith in EVERYTHING anyone ever tells you? etc


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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 05:24 AM

Quote:
1. Every being (that exists or ever did exist) is either a dependent being or self-existent being.
2. Not every being can be a dependent being.
3. Therefore, there exists a self-existent being.

And how does this account for interdependency? In our biosphere, for example, plants and animals are interdependent on each other for the oxygen and carbon dioxide they produce, respectively. Is there any evidence to suggest that there is a third force at work that allows those two ecosystems to function? This tells me that it is certainly possible that all life on the planet is connected and functions independent of a heavenly source.

Quote:
1. God is the greatest power which can be imagined.
2. If God does not exist, then He is not the greatest power which can be imagined.
3. Since God is the greatest power which can be imagined, and His non-existence would mean He is not the greatest power which can be imagined, it must be concluded that God exists outside of the imagination.
4. Thus, God exists.

The underlying assumption with this is that the greatest power which can be imagined exists in the first place. It may simply be that the greatest power we have seen evidence of exists. What that exactly is is open to interpretation, but my vote would go towards something galactic, like a star or a black hole or some such.

Also, the greatest power that can be imagined is an omnipotent power, which cannot exist.

Quote:
1. Nature, without fail, is ordered. There is no part of nature unordered.
2. Even among parts of nature which are unaware (not conscious) such as plant life, there is order. All parts of nature work towards a goal, even if unaware.
3. Unaware existence cannot work towards a goal.
4. There must, therefore, be an aware and ordered Being guiding those parts of nature.

I assume you speak of sentience, of which there are various levels. Humans, as far as we know, are the most sentient creatures on the planet. We are the most self-aware. In contrast a blade of grass is completely unaware of its own existence (that we know of) yet it still strives to grow. Isn't it entirely possible that this extremely fundamental desire for growth and survival is preprogrammed into the hereditary code of all organisms on Earth- a code which, by the way, is not necessarily written by a divine hand?

In short, this section points out that unaware existence can't work towards a goal consciously, but can still achieve the same set of results as though it had set the goal in the first place (ie, growing). This can appear to be working toward a goal.

Last edited by Jer; January 13th 2009 at 05:40 AM. Reason: Added somethin'.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 05:48 AM

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And how does this account for interdependency? In our biosphere, for example, plants and animals are interdependent on each other for the oxygen and carbon dioxide they produce, respectively. Is there any evidence to suggest that there is a third force at work that allows those two ecosystems to function? This tells me that it is certainly possible that all life on the planet is connected and functions independent of a heavenly source.

Life is not infinite: fact. Because life is not infinite, life must originate somewhere: fact. My argument supports this. Your counter-argument is insufficient. Possibility is not fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
The underlying assumption with this is that the greatest power which can be imagined exists in the first place. It may simply be that the greatest power we have seen evidence of exists. What that exactly is is open to interpretation, but my vote would go towards something galactic, like a star or a black hole or some such.

Also, the greatest power that can be imagined is an omnipotent power, which cannot exist.

I already disproved your omnipotent argument. Your response is inadequate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Isn't it entirely possible that this extremely fundamental desire for growth and survival is preprogrammed into the hereditary code of all organisms on Earth- a code which, by the way, is not necessarily written by a divine hand?

It is possible but possibility is not fact, thus you have not proven my argument invalid, which is your duty.

Also, you do not account for the goals I speak of, further weakening your argument.



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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 05:56 AM

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Life is not infinite: fact. Because life is not infinite, life must originate somewhere: fact. My argument supports this. Your counter-argument is insufficient. Possibility is not fact.

Is this going to go into the ages-old debate between intelligent design and evolution? Both are fully plausible origins of life.


Quote:
I already disproved your omnipotent argument. Your response is inadequate.
Not quite.

1. The greatest power imaginable is omnipotent.
2. God is not omnipotent.
3. Therefore, God is not the greatest power imaginable.

My response is clearly adequate enough to use the already-disproved omnipotence idea against your "God is the greatest power imaginable" idea.

You also fail to address the part of my argument that does not deal with omnipotence.

Quote:
It is possible but possibility is not fact, thus you have not proven my argument invalid, which is your duty.

Also, you do not account for the goals I speak of, further weakening your argument.
The "goals" are the simplistic natural desires of survival and reproduction, which are not necessarily orchestrated by a God. Dandelion seeds blowing in the wind could just as easily be the product of adaptation as the work of God.

"Possibility is not fact" can be used against the idea of God existing as well. To counter the idea that your possibility is fact, I simply need to introduce another possibility, not necessarily fact.

Last edited by Jer; January 13th 2009 at 05:59 AM. Reason: Added somethin'.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 06:08 AM

You failed to miss my points, Jered. If you're going to debate you have to hold up your end of the bargain. Either logically disprove my arguments or factually disprove them. Opinions and possiblities are not sufficient.

An omnipotent God as you define Him is incorrectly defined.



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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 06:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
You failed to miss my points, Jered.

El oh el.

Quote:
If you're going to debate you have to hold up your end of the bargain. Either logically disprove my arguments or factually disprove them. Opinions and possiblities are not sufficient.
Can you offer evidence and reasoning that shows that this is not simply an effort to get me to bow down because you are running out of reasoning?

Also, I ought to point out that possibilities are more than sufficient for this debate. In order for one side or another to become fact as we know it, all other possibilities need to be exhausted. We accept that our chair is black because we have proven that it is not red, blue, green, orange, purple, or any other color besides black. As long as one side or another can introduce a possible explanation or cause for a certain condition, the other side's possibility can never become fact.

Quote:
An omnipotent God as you define Him is incorrectly defined.
Then can you disprove that the greatest power imaginable is omnipotent? Or that my logic in that particular argument is flawed?

Last edited by Jer; January 13th 2009 at 06:15 AM. Reason: Moar adding.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 06:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Humans, mountains, the sky, animals, etc do not qualify as proof that God exists. Other theories concerning how those things came to be exist; therefore it is illogical to simply assume that they were put in place by a supreme being.

@Jessie: Still putting my reply together.
Well than proof to me what that actually ignite the big bang and than proof to me how the thing that made the big bang are created and how the thing that make the thing that ignit the big bang occured.If you can proof this and actually creat a human without using parts from other living thing that I agree there are no god but for now I stick with my stand and please,those who say they are open mindd are the most closed minded person ever.
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 06:17 AM

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Originally Posted by noveras View Post
Well than proof to me what that actually ignite the big bang and than proof to me how the thing that made the big bang are created and how the thing that make the thing that ignit the big bang occured.If you can proof this and actually creat a human without using parts from other living thing that I agree there are no god but for now I stick with my stand and please,those who say they are open mindd are the most closed minded person ever.
For the record, I've never stated how open- or closed-minded I am.

And there are scientific theories behind the Big Bang, not simply religious ones.

Tell me, what is your stance on evolution? Do you acknowledge it as a possibility or do you reject it simply because it goes against your beliefs?

If you answer "I have complete faith in God and know that he created the universe," then you are committing hypocrisy by refusing to be open-minded yourself.

If you answer "I consider evolution to be a possibility," you erode your own basis of argument by diminishing the amount of support you can use to cite your religious beliefs as the reason behind something being true (which doesn't apply outside of your world anyway).

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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post

Is this going to go into the ages-old debate between intelligent design and evolution? Both are fully plausible origins of life.

Then offer your counter argument, don't simply give me questions to answer. It is your duty to provide a counter-argument that is suitable, not simply possible (the Fountain of Youth and unicorns are POSSIBLE, but not LOGICAL) but also logical (or factual.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Not quite.

1. The greatest power imaginable is omnipotent.
2. God is not omnipotent.
3. Therefore, God is not the greatest power imaginable.

My response is clearly adequate enough to use the already-disproved omnipotence idea against your "God is the greatest power imaginable" idea.

You also fail to address the part of my argument that does not deal with omnipotence.

The greatest power imaginable cannot be omnipotent according to your definition, as an omnipotent being of your definition has been incorrectly defined. Omnipotence by your definition is impossible. God is omnipotent in the sense that He is of great power, almighty, you may say, not that He can defy logic (again, creating a spherical cube or something similar.) Again, the omnipotent argument against the existence of God is largely flawed and not used by the experienced debater. Find an argument I have not proven wrong as your counter-argument.

Also, you cannot imagine something greater than the greatest being which can be imagined. So this still stands:

1. God is the greatest being which can be imagined.
2. If God does not exist, then He is not the greatest being which can be imagined.
3. Since God is the greatest being which can be imagined, and His non-existence would mean He is not the greatest being which can be imagined, it must be concluded that God exists outside of the imagination.
4. Thus, God exists.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
The "goals" are the simplistic natural desires of survival and reproduction, which are not necessarily orchestrated by a God. Dandelion seeds blowing in the wind could just as easily be the product of adaptation as the work of God.

"Possibility is not fact" can be used against the idea of God existing as well. To counter the idea that your possibility is fact, I simply need to introduce another possibility, not necessarily fact.
Plants don't have desires. Dandelions don't understand reproduction. This argument does not sufficiently disprove my goals argument. Things which cannot think cannot act on purpose, thus they do not have goals or the ability to reach goals on their own. Dandelions cannot think. Things that cannot think do not develop goals.

You need to introduce a logical possibility, not a possibility left to stand on its own.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
El oh el.

I'm tired! Haven't slept. lol You so know what I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Can you offer evidence and reasoning that shows that this is not simply an effort to get me to bow down because you are running out of reasoning?
Above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Also, I ought to point out that possibilities are more than sufficient for this debate. In order for one side or another to become fact as we know it, all other possibilities need to be exhausted. We accept that our chair is black because we have proven that it is not red, blue, green, orange, purple, or any other color besides black. As long as one side or another can introduce a possible explanation or cause for a certain condition, the other side's possibility can never become fact.
I did not ask you to conclude with fact, but logic OR fact. I have not gotten either. Possibility backed by logic is acceptable. But use deductive logic or SOMETHING other than saying "it's possible."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
Then can you disprove that the greatest power imaginable is omnipotent? Or that my logic in that particular argument is flawed?
=
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
You stand corrected. Your argument against omnipotence is invalid for Christianity, as the Bible never claims that God is omnipotent. In fact, it specifies otherwise: God CANNOT lie (Titus 1:2). God CANNOT sin (James 1:13). Omnipotence as it relates to the Christian God does not mean that God can do all things. God cannot do anything contrary to His holiness. Besides, there are TWO definitions of omnipotent: having unlimited power OR having very great power. The definitions of omnipotence do NOT include the ability to do impossible or irrational things (like form a spherical triangle.) And as the Bible never mentions the word omnipotent: argument one, omnipotence, has become irrelevant. Most arguments against God of this nature were dropped long ago by the experienced debater.
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Quote:
The greatest power imaginable cannot be omnipotent according to your definition, as an omnipotent being of your definition has been incorrectly defined. Omnipotence by your definition is impossible. God is omnipotent in the sense that He is of great power, almighty, you may say, not that He can defy logic (again, creating a spherical cube or something similar.) Again, the omnipotent argument against the existence of God is largely flawed and not used by the experienced debater. Find an argument I have not proven wrong as your counter-argument.
And just for fun: Your argument below is seriously flawed, as it is based off of arguments which are unable to be verified by any information you have provided.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
1. The greatest power imaginable is omnipotent.
2. God is not omnipotent.
3. Therefore, God is not the greatest power imaginable.

1. The yummy food is green.
2. Popcorn is not green.
3. Therefore, popcorn is not yummy.




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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 09:55 AM

Can't prove or disprove a invisible man/woman/pantheon in the sky. None of the tens of thousands of them.

/thread


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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 13th 2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:
Because life is not infinite, life must originate somewhere: fact.
Scientific theory contends that the universe began to expand from an extremely dense and hot state about 15 billion years ago and continues to expand today. "What exisisted [sic] prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation."source

As I very much hope you already know, creationism is not the only idea that answers where we come from.
Quote:
Then offer your counter argument, don't simply give me questions to answer. It is your duty to provide a counter-argument that is suitable, not simply possible
See above.

Quote:
1. God is the greatest being which can be imagined.
2. If God does not exist, then He is not the greatest being which can be imagined.
3. Since God is the greatest being which can be imagined, and His non-existence would mean He is not the greatest being which can be imagined, it must be concluded that God exists outside of the imagination.
4. Thus, God exists.
You still have neglected to address my previous point that the assumption with this argument is that the greatest power imaginable also exists. I can imagine an infinitely large fish, yet it cannot possibly exist because if it existed, we would not, as this fish would take up all of space. Please do not reply with "God is immaterial" because the fish is an example of a lack of link between imagination and existence.

Also, think of this:
1. Existence is a property.
2. As you said, God is the greatest being imaginable.
3. Anything greater than God therefore cannot exist.
4. Imagine another separate being altogether- let's call him Larry- with all the properties of God, who does not exist.
5. By 3 it follows that Larry is greater than God.
6. But 5 contradicts 2, since we could imagine that Larry is greater than God.
According to this, 1, 2, 3 or 4 is false. Either existence is not a property, God is not the greatest being imaginable, something greater than God can exist (making him lesser than something), or Larry can exist.

Quote:
Dandelions don't understand reproduction.
Quote:
Things which cannot think cannot act on purpose
Then the question becomes, how can we be sure of a dandelion's nonsentience?

Quote:
1. The yummy food is green.
2. Popcorn is not green.
3. Therefore, popcorn is not yummy.
The difference between my argument and yours is that yummy food is not required to be green. Chocolate is not green, and is also yummy; therefore, not all yummy food is chocolate. However, the greatest power I can imagine is a power that can do ANYTHING, which is impossible. This is my second argument against "God is the greatest power imaginable." As I outlined before, whether or not the greatest power imaginable can be imagined is independent of whether the greatest power imaginable actually exists. This transforms God's status into "the most powerful being in existence," which means something can theoretically become greater than God and as such, he is not the ultimate power in the universe.

Further picking apart this:
Quote:
Your argument below is seriously flawed, as it is based off of arguments which are unable to be verified by any information you have provided.
1. The greatest power imaginable is omnipotent. <-- As I have demonstrated, existence is independent of the ability to be imagined. Since I can imagine a being that can do anything, it follows that omnipotence is synonymous with the greatest power imaginable.
2. God is not omnipotent. <-- Already stated by you.
2. Therefore, God is not the greatest power imaginable. <-- Here's the deductive reasoning you ask for.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 14th 2009, 01:16 AM

My answer: I don't "think" God exists... I KNOW he does. end.

I don't understand the purpose of these kind of debates. Nothing is ever resolved or accomplished because most people are too strongly on one side of the debate to even listen to what the other side has to say. People think the goal is to convince others that your side is right when really it should be to just understand how the other person acquired their point of view and to understand where they're coming from.


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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 14th 2009, 02:37 AM

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Originally Posted by soulfulseductress View Post
My answer: I don't "think" God exists... I KNOW he does. end.

I don't understand the purpose of these kind of debates. Nothing is ever resolved or accomplished because most people are too strongly on one side of the debate to even listen to what the other side has to say. People think the goal is to convince others that your side is right when really it should be to just understand how the other person acquired their point of view and to understand where they're coming from.
& how do you find that out if you don't ask ?


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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 14th 2009, 03:52 AM

For me, i see the divine in the Nature around me, and in everything including myself (i am a Wiccan). I believe everything is interconnected on energy levels.

I have personal experiences and beliefs that prove for ME that the divine is out there in form, but i cannot in any way prove it to others, and nor do i wish to.

For me, saying 'God doesn't exist' is not offensive. I respect that, and don't wish to prove or disprove either way.

Personal belief Oh, and about Omnipotence. I believe that because we (I) am part of the divine, that we (I) and each person has the power to have omnipotence themselves in ways they cannot imagine. It takes time and tapping into, though. So many things are yet undiscovered pertaining to a parallel 'plane' to our own, more than one, and that we (I) have more abilities than we (I) can imagine. That is my belief.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 14th 2009, 03:56 AM

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Originally Posted by soulfulseductress View Post
My answer: I don't "think" God exists... I KNOW he does. end.
For those that may argue against this... I understand what Monica is saying. For HER she DOES know that God exists. Personally, she knows. But that does not mean for other people that they can share in her knowing, or see, feel, or experience what she has.

Therefore it's ok to say that somebody 'knows' for themselves, but on a wider scale that doesn't prove or disprove the notion of a definitive existence of God.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 15th 2009, 04:45 AM

So wait, if I claim something and then state that I really, honestly, and truly believe in what I'm saying, then it's true? Fuck that. I'm sick of people thinking appeals to emotion are still valid. Unless you can actually contribute something to this thread other than your srs nd for realz feeling then stop posting.

In order to prevent an ironic incident of hypocrisy, I'd like to posit that, if God did exist, there would be no suffering in the world.

Skydaddy is described as perfectly loving (1 John 4:9-18), all-powerful (Matthew 19:26) and all-knowing (Psalm 147:4-5). Anything which is not these things is not Skydaddy.

So, this gives us a skydaddy who loves us all more than it's possible to understand (he is love, supposedly), is capable of doing quite literally anything and knows absolutely everything that ever happens.

So, Why was my friend raped repeatedly during her childhood? Why was another left battered and bleeding in an alleyway to die like a fucking animal? Why do THIRTY FUCKING THOUSAND children starve to death EVERY. SINGLE. DAY? Why are a PATHETIC sixteen percent of rapists ever imprisoned? Human history has been fucking RIDDLED with these things - it's hardly a human history, it's a history of the inhuman. And, according to you people, some ethereal father-figure has been sitting there, capable of STOPPING this (All-powerful), KNOWING of this (All-knowing), 'LOVING' us (Perfectly-loving), and he has been doing NOTHING?

Even if such a deity were to exist, if through all of the mind-bogglingly obvious logical inconsistencies, even IF such a creature could exist, it would be no more worthy of adoration than Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein or any other of the innumerable examples of human filth history offers up.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 15th 2009, 05:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ca/tg/irl View Post
So wait, if I claim something and then state that I really, honestly, and truly believe in what I'm saying, then it's true? Fuck that. I'm sick of people thinking appeals to emotion are still valid. Unless you can actually contribute something to this thread other than your srs nd for realz feeling then stop posting.

In order to prevent an ironic incident of hypocrisy, I'd like to posit that, if God did exist, there would be no suffering in the world.

Skydaddy is described as perfectly loving (1 John 4:9-18), all-powerful (Matthew 19:26) and all-knowing (Psalm 147:4-5). Anything which is not these things is not Skydaddy.

So, this gives us a skydaddy who loves us all more than it's possible to understand (he is love, supposedly), is capable of doing quite literally anything and knows absolutely everything that ever happens.

So, Why was my friend raped repeatedly during her childhood? Why was another left battered and bleeding in an alleyway to die like a fucking animal? Why do THIRTY FUCKING THOUSAND children starve to death EVERY. SINGLE. DAY? Why are a PATHETIC sixteen percent of rapists ever imprisoned? Human history has been fucking RIDDLED with these things - it's hardly a human history, it's a history of the inhuman. And, according to you people, some ethereal father-figure has been sitting there, capable of STOPPING this (All-powerful), KNOWING of this (All-knowing), 'LOVING' us (Perfectly-loving), and he has been doing NOTHING?

Even if such a deity were to exist, if through all of the mind-bogglingly obvious logical inconsistencies, even IF such a creature could exist, it would be no more worthy of adoration than Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein or any other of the innumerable examples of human filth history offers up.
This is the Devil's World, it's meant to be a test and challenge people etc.

Atleast thats what there argument would be.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does Skydaddy exist? - January 15th 2009, 05:18 AM

Their.

And Skydaddy is, as we've established, omniscient. The whole idea that our daily miseries are just a test of our faith before we get a grand reward is donkey-and-carrot thinking - Oh no, just ONE MORE VIOLENT CRIME and Skydaddy will love you enough to make it fucking STOP.

This is the religion that says that if you just PRAYED HARD ENOUGH and weren't such a TERRIBLE, BAD PERSON that Skydaddy would stop PUNISHING YOU. That's right - every single murdered Jew in a ditch in Ukraine, every date-raped teenage girl in some shitty public toilet in downtown, every single piece of fucking collateral damage lying broken under a pile of rubble where they used to live, ALL OF THEIR TORMENTS ARE THEIR OWN FAULTS. They didn't pray hard enough or often enough or they did it to the wrong Skydaddy - WHO FUCKING CARES? Skydaddy will rape and beat and torture and murder and cripple and blind and deafen and disease them until they DIE.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 15th 2009, 05:44 AM

If "God" created the universe and everyone in it, then he's obviously just as insecure as the rest of us, requiring his people to worship him. If someone behaved like God did in the real world, as Ca/tg/irl pointed out, they'd be mentally deranged. We put these kinds of people in either jail or mental institutions.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 15th 2009, 02:36 PM

I'm unsure.
I don't see any reason why God doesn't exist,but then i don't see any reason why he does.
Science can explain most things,so right now I'm sticking with Science.
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 17th 2009, 04:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie View Post
1. God is the greatest being which can be imagined.
2. If God does not exist, then He is not the greatest being which can be imagined.
3. Since God is the greatest being which can be imagined, and His non-existence would mean He is not the greatest being which can be imagined, it must be concluded that God exists outside of the imagination.
4. Thus, God exists.
A valid argument to be sure.

1) I
2) If ~E, then ~I
3) Since I, then E
4) Thus E

A valid argument doesn't mean it's a SOUND argument, especially with all the premise being questionable.

1) Imagination is pretty powerful, I could "imagine" a being greater than God just by thinking, "it's greater than God".
2) I fail to see how that works, as God could simply not exist at all, and yet God could still be the greatest being that can be imagined(relatively speaking).
3) It sounds more like God's existence has an influence on whether or not he can be imagined, which it does not, because regardless of whether or not the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists or not, you can still imagine it.
4) Big question mark at this point, it would rely heavily on the last 3 premise being true, which I don't think they can be given the points above.


Quote:
Plants don't have desires. Dandelions don't understand reproduction. This argument does not sufficiently disprove my goals argument. Things which cannot think cannot act on purpose, thus they do not have goals or the ability to reach goals on their own. Dandelions cannot think. Things that cannot think do not develop goals.
Nobody knows the full extent of plant sentience, but let's just ignore that for now.

If you were to drop a 30 lb. iron weight about 10 feet off the surface of the earth with nothing but the ground itself directly below it, nothing attached to the weight, and no magnetic force interacting with it, chance are that it will fall straight down towards the earth EVERY SINGLE TIME. This is because the weight follows the laws of physics which governs the manner in which everything in the universe reacts to certain forces. In this case, the mass of the weight follows the theory of gravity and so goes down instead of falling up.

In the case of life and reproduction it is quite simple to explain. Life simply follows the behavior or action that allows it continued existence. Think of the first single-celled organisms as a continuous trial and error system of atoms taking on a molecular arrangement known as "life" or "cell". The new randomly created cells take on certain behaviors and actions which may or may not include reproduction. The cells that don't reproduce will not continue to exist, they simply die out, they CEASE TO EXIST. The cells that DO reproduce will CONTINUE TO EXIST. So you see, the dominant behavior that allows life to persist will in turn continue to persist.

Your goals argument would suggest that reproduction is a goal, that anything that reproduces must have reproduction as a goal, that anything that does not have a goal cannot reproduce. It's sort of like suggesting that the iron weight(or some other power) must KNOW that it must go down in order for it to go "down".

Quote:
And just for fun: Your argument below is seriously flawed, as it is based off of arguments which are unable to be verified by any information you have provided.

1. The yummy food is green.
2. Popcorn is not green.
3. Therefore, popcorn is not yummy.

Your arguments tend to be VALID but not SOUND.

The premise have little to no basis in actual fact and are not objective but rather rely heavily on subjective opinion.

1) Y = G
2) P != G
3) Therefore, P != Y

It is mathematically perfect, but I wonder if you could count it as real-world fact that "yummy" food MUST be green.

So when you speak of arguments that can't be "verified" by provided information, aren't you just talking about your own arguments?


"I am the shadow cast by the light of science."
   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 17th 2009, 02:27 PM

First, I'd like to point out that omnipotent means all-knowing. Second, I'd like to state that existence or non-existence of God can not be proven. You all are arguing over nothing.



   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 17th 2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:
First, I'd like to point out that omnipotent means all-knowing.
Um, lol NO.
Omnipotent - Having unlimited power, force or authority.
Omniscient - all knowing

Quote:
Second, I'd like to state that existence or non-existence of God can not be proven.
Agnostic, huh?


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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 17th 2009, 02:43 PM

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Originally Posted by R.K. View Post
Um, lol NO.
Omnipotent - Having unlimited power, force or authority.
Omniscient - all knowing


Agnostic, huh?
My mistake.

No, not agnostic. I think that it all comes down to subjective belief.



   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 17th 2009, 03:03 PM

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I think that it all comes down to subjective belief.
Truth isn't subjective.


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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 17th 2009, 03:06 PM

I have no idea if God exists or not. If s/he does I don't believe he created anything.


   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 17th 2009, 04:13 PM

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Originally Posted by R.K. View Post
Truth isn't subjective.
Everything is subjective. Chyea Nihilism!



   
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Re: Debate corner: Does God exist? - January 17th 2009, 04:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Dream View Post
Everything is subjective. Chyea Nihilism!
YOUR PERSPECTIVE on Truth is subjective. Truth isn't.


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