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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Question I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 23rd 2016, 06:27 AM

So I was raised a Christian, baptized, confirmed to the Methoidst church, and for a while, was a Christian with out even thinking about it.

But then I got OCD and started asking questions, and started getting bothered by things that I didn't used to be.

Basically, I'm a very scientific person, who doesn't believe in anything unless it's throughly documented, but I still believe in God because science has yet to disprove it and it makes a suprsing amount of sense, and the concept of heaven is comforting to me, as well. Sure, Christinaity has its plot holes, but atheism does too (I don't see how something can be created from nothing with out an external force).

But I just don't agree with the Bible. First of all, I don't want to put my faith in a God which flooded the Earth, killing a countless number of people, instead of trying to fix it-and I really doubt there wasn't more souls than one worth saving.

Also, the stuff it considers sins. I'm pretty sure I'm gay, so that automatically alienates me from the bible-and though I can happily prove all the scriptures that cite "homosexuality as a sin" as mistranslations or misunderstandings and can be disproved with simple common sense, it still bothers me. It is also the same book which says a rape victim has to marry their rapist.

It also considers things like shaving your beard, cutting the hair on the side of your head as a sin, and, for example, says eating seafood as a sin but if God didn't want man to eat seafood, why didn't he make all seafood poisonous. It also considers working on Sunday's (which is necessary for some people because of the economy), wearing jewelry (even cross necklaces), touching a dirty animal (ever wash your dog?), or getting your penis cut off (which is something you can control) as sins.

BUT it says that these are sins that God can forgive as long as you have faith-which means you can only eat seafood or wear ripped jeans if you're Christian. Which makes no sense. Becuause if you're not Christian, you don't care what any imaginary God thinks-and if anyone should know that-it's God.

The Bible does consider sensible things as sins-such as incest, consulting with "psychics", pedophilia, racism, zoophilia, etc. as being sins, but why cutting the hair on the side of your head?

And the Bible also contradicts itself in many places too, which is something a holy book shouldn't do (google it-for example, it differs on how many animals Noah brought with him). And some Christians preach you are nothing without a God, which is just depressing to say the least. And if God is so forgiving, why does allow for the continual existence of hell and Satan-I mean he technically created them.

I'm sorry if I offended everyone, because I do respect God, if he exists. He has infinite power, ad thus infinite responsibility. If I were a god, I would make sure everyone knew I existed, but instead he allows for "free will",and doesn't force anyone to believe in him or provide any overwhelming evidence for his existence, and even made the laws of nature which don't permit him to truly exist in our world. That's why I see am someone to worship, despite things like natural disasters and disease, which he also created-causing me to not so much worship him but instead believe in his existence but doesn't believe he has our best interests at heart...?

So, any thoughts or reactions? Is there even a name for what I am or am I just looking to far into things? I would love to hear other people's opinions...
   
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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 23rd 2016, 02:07 PM

So, is it that you believe in God, but you don't believe, or at least don't agree with his word? There is something like that, its called atheistic Christianity, and its basically where one does not necessarily believe in God but they do believe in a higher power and in Christian morals. However, I don't think this is what you are, and what your dealing with is more of doubt and the "why does good do this" or "why does God say this" kind of thing.
All of those old laws and rules from the Bible (Leviticus, right?) That you mention are not sins. At least, not any more. These laws were meant for the Israelites and the Jews who lived thousands of years ago, so yeah, they don't apply to you. And even if they did, Jesus scrapped these rules with his coming and with his new covenant, so they no longer have meaning anyway. Ever wondered why Christians can eat pork while Jews, who follow the same ten commandments, can't? This is why.
Now, as for the free-will thing, good wants us to love and love freely. Because there is a constant battle between the good and the bad (aka god and his followers and Satan and his followers) both wiill always be present in this world. Well always have good elements, like hope and love and creation, but we will still have the bad elements, hence the tornados and diseases and evil in this world. However, this is all here because we have a choice. Would you rather be unable to make your own choices and forced to comply with everything? That's basically a robot, and god doesn't want that, because that wouldn't be love anyway. God wants you to love him and love him freely, completely void of any other factors except for the fact that you love him. And whether you choose to love him and have faith in him, or reject him, is entirely up to you. He doesn't want to rule over us and control us and make us fear him, while we don't have any sort of power or choice of our own. Again, we would just be mindless robots, without any true beauty of our own, and he didn't want that. He wants to love us and for us to love him, so that we are his children and so that he is our father, rather than our master. We have the power to choose who we want to follow, whether that be god or Satan, and we have the power to choose what we do. Again, god does not enforce these (I.e, make something that were not supposed to eat poisonous) because we have this power to choose and because we know our right from our wrong, so we choose to follow god and to do what is right.
You also need to remember that god is god, that he knows what hes doing and that he has a plan for you, even if you cant see it. True faith is believing without seeing, without fully understanding, wihout knowing what is to happen. MLK said faith is taking that step, even when you cant see the stairs, and this is true. Saying that you believe, while also questioning everything about it, simply because there isnt proof that makes it 100%, undeniably true, is not faith. And you say that there is little evidence to gods existence, but this also is not true. If you really read, and see all of the miracles and occurances and wonders that have happened throughout the years, and even the ones that happen today, youll see. Science cant explain everything, and it actually explains very little about this earth. It may seem like it does, but it only accounts for a tiny fraction of what is actually out there. And the way i see it, science only further proves the existence of god. It is his creation, isnt it? If you really look, youll see that a lot of it points to him, and it helps to explain why some things happen or how some thingd came to be.
Dont worry about offending anyone, it was a valid question, and im glad you asked, i just hope i said that the right way. Hope this helped.


I know you are looking for a sea that lies beyond your reach
But im hoping my heart can stop you before you reach the beach
I know you have places to go
I know that you want the sea
But im hoping my heart will grow and that you'll
come back to me.....

Last edited by jamdoughnut; April 23rd 2016 at 05:59 PM.
   
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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 23rd 2016, 03:59 PM

Thank you for the response yes it did help clarify something's, but the more I think about it, the more I don't believe in the Bible.

Even though the "sins" in Levictus don't apply anymore (which is actually said somewhere in Galantians), the fact that they were still sins at some point still bothers me, even if we have a much better understanding of how the world works.

I also don't like the fact that God has a plan for me, as doesn't that seem to contradict the whole "free will" thing? Are you saying God has a plan to make serial killers and murderers, which I know isn't what you mean, but can be applied? I don't like the fact that my future would be written in stone, and that God made every decision I make before me, or even created me to make those decisions, if that makes sense.

Also, with things like carbon dating and dinosaurs, the Bible is losing credibility imo. I know dinosaurs could have easily been in the Garden of Eden, but how they would die out so quickly while species like flies and Mosquitos flourish doesn't make much sense and the a Bible doesn't stray in to that at all, really. The bible does mention "gigantic creatures" but that could have been anything. But the bible says the world is 6,000 years old, when science can prove its been around much longer. Science can easily disprove the Bible, but can NEVER disprove (or prove) the existence of a God or higher power, whether it's Greek gods or the Christian god.

Also, any of the miracles the Bible presents are either straight up lies, incorrect, or written after the fact. For example, the book of Daniel's prophecies are 98% correct, but if God really did predict it, shouldn't it be 100%? Then there's the fact that it all could have been written after the fact, as a way to falsely convert people and that just makes me sick that a holy book would flat out lie to billions of people like that, and that doesn't seem what God would want.

The modern world miracles you mention seem like bull to me. First of all, if they were true without a doubt, then there would be a lot less atheists in the world, and then there's the fact that miracles like that go against the whole concept of free will...?

The more I think about it, the more "atheistic Christian" I seem to be. I mean, people like Jesus inspires and has inspired hope for billions around the world, but then there's the fact the God seems to have changed from the Old Testament to the New Testemant, and if God is perfect, then he should have been perfect for the beginning and thus had no need to change...

But thanks again for the clarification I think I'm just really weird when it comes to religion tbh
   
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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 23rd 2016, 06:20 PM

Glad I could help.

About his plan for your future, it's not him governing every single thing that you do. Its more like he's chosen for you the important things in your life. (I know I explained that really badly and it sounds contradictive, but just listen). He loves you, and he knows you, even more than you do, because He created you. You also have to keep in mind that God is in the present, the future, and the past, all at once, and that he exists outside of time. He can see the future, or more specifically your future, while you cannot. You have no idea what your future will be like, what will happen to you, or what will be best for you in that future. Because he knows your future and he knows you better than anybody else in heaven or on earth possibly could, he knows what will be best for you. This is what I mean by his plan- he knows what will be best for you and what you will enjoy doing the most. This goes for your future job, the way you choose to lead your life, your future spouse (or if your meant to lead a single life, because that's OK to), and many, many other aspects of your life. Whatever these may be, he knows that they will be the best thing for you and that you will be happiest with them in your life, but he cannot force them upon you. You ultimately have to choose them for yourself. It's more like a calling, really. He's calling you to do something or to act on something because he knows that they will be good for you, but it is still ultimately your choice to act on it or not.
As for the stuff about science and miracles and whatnot, its still just about faith. You either have it or you dont, and you cant exactly expect everything to be perfect and proven and given to you straight out. There is no possible way that you could ever begin to comprehend god himself, let alone his word and his mysteries and how they all fit together. Nobody can, its just not possible. Its so complex and it may seem crazy, because we dont understand and we cant understand, were only human after all. You really just have to trust that god is god, that he knows what hes doing, and that hes in control. (And i dont mean that literally as in him ruling over us, but that hes there for you and that he knows whats best for you and that hes strong enough to hold you up when it feels like everything is falling apart.) You trying to pick it apart and trying to prove every single little detail about everything is going to get you nowhere, and leave you feeling unacomplished, exhausted, and just confused.
And i can see where the confusion is coming from, but do you really expect the bible to expalin dinosaurs? Theyre not significant really in any way with the bible, or jesus, or god. Thats a lot to explain, too, if they really were to go into dinosaurs, so why would there be this whole lengthy section of the bible about dinosaurs? That doesn't make any sense to me. And the world being 6000 years old? Where in the bible did you even find that? I have never heard that before, and thats obviously not true. No one here is asking you to completely reject sound evidence of something, or to completely throw reason and logic out the window.
That being said thoug , many of the examples that you gave, like the bible contradicting its self and prophets being inaccurate are not wrong, but misconstrued. The bible was written thousands of years ago, and in a very different language. Many things become lost because it is so old, and other information is lost or misinterpreted in the translations. They were also written by people and their first hand adcounts. Though several people may witness the same events, the way they describe them could be totally different from each other. And it wasnt like the events were recorded right after they occured, so you could see how information could be somewhat inaccurate. Yes, if it had been written by god (and i mean literally and physically written out by him) then it would be perfect and it wouldn't have these small inaccuracies, but it was written by men, so it is bound to be have a few mistakes. However, one little mistake- especially in some minor almost insignificant detail, as these mistakes often are- does not make the whole thing invalid. Again, thats just faith and what you decide to believe, whether you take it for fact or not. and again, there is nothing wrong wih approaching this with reason and logic, but you need to keep in mind that your not going to figure out absolutly everything that you want to know.
I think that all you can really do right now is to trust and have faith in god. Im sorry if this isnt what you wanted, or if i didnt explain something in the right way. Ill be happy to answer any other questions that you have, if you need to. Take care.


I know you are looking for a sea that lies beyond your reach
But im hoping my heart can stop you before you reach the beach
I know you have places to go
I know that you want the sea
But im hoping my heart will grow and that you'll
come back to me.....

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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 23rd 2016, 08:14 PM

Thanks again for the response

The bible doesn't explicitly say anywhere that the Earth is 6,000 years old, but if you assume that the seven days the Earth was created were literal days, then it can be estimated the Earth is somewhere around ~6,000 according to the Bible.

It's true, that the Bible is going to be imperfect, and a lot of that imperfections was the result of man or mistranslations, but in what is heralded as God's word, I expect something a little bit more...put together? I just think that man could have used some of Gods knowledge to create a book that was as close to perfect as man could get, if that's makes sense.

It doesn't help that I am a little bit scared of ultra-religious Christians, who preach the Bible as perfect and words to completely dictate your how you live.

I understand that the bible was written by different people in different times, but all under the influence of the same God.

I just think that in order for me to put my faith in something, it should have very little flaws. The concept of God doesn't, but the Bible has contradictions in even the original Hebrew version (like on what day plants were created, there are a lot of resources online).

That side, unless your faith posses emotional or physical harm to yourself or any other living thing, I don't think faith should be condemned. Everyone is going to have different opinions on things like the existence of a higher power, how the world was created, etc.

I just like to ask a lot of questions I guess
But thanks for your responses-they are smart and well though out
   
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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 23rd 2016, 08:50 PM

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Originally Posted by JustMeUnfortunately View Post
So I was raised a Christian, baptized, confirmed to the Methoidst church, and for a while, was a Christian with out even thinking about it.

But then I got OCD and started asking questions, and started getting bothered by things that I didn't used to be.
First, hi. :P My name is Michael. I am an agnostic. I was raised Christian, Calvinistic Baptist. I came to a place like you did, where I began to question everything, and eventually ended up where I am today.

First before I respond to anything, have you ever looked in Presbyterian USA churches? They accept science, evolution, LGBT, and they view the Old Testament as not being literal, but rather being a foreshadowing of Jesus. Which, when you read John, especially the first chapter, or when you read Romans, it certainly alludes to this being the case. It seems like you would fit well within this denomination before abandoning Christianity altogether, which, unless you're adamant about it, I am against because leaving Christianity didn't make things easier for me. It took me a long time to fully feel comfortable about where I am, and sometimes I still have my doubts. Leaving religion is VERY difficult (at least in my case), and can cause a lot of psychological issues. If it was something that was very fundamentalist and radical, I would obviously advise something different, but this doesn't seem to really be your case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMeUnfortunately View Post
Basically, I'm a very scientific person, who doesn't believe in anything unless it's throughly documented, but I still believe in God because science has yet to disprove it and it makes a suprsing amount of sense, and the concept of heaven is comforting to me, as well. Sure, Christinaity has its plot holes, but atheism does too (I don't see how something can be created from nothing with out an external force).
So, here's the thing. This argument about "something being created without an external force" is a very faulty argument. This argument is dependent on Newtownian based physics which only applies to mechanics. The creation of the universe is based on quantum theory, not Newtonian physics.

However, even is we assume Newtonian physics the Universe could have been created by only gravity. This is because gravity is a negative energy (where matter is positive energy). When you look at all the energy collectively in the Universe, this balances out to 0. In other words, the creation and destruction of our Universe is a fundamental property of our Universe. That is, it couldn't HELP but be created, and it can't HELP but be destroyed. Thus no laws of physics are really violated since no energy was added to the net system. Enter M-theory. We likely collided with another Universe which caused our expansion.

Think of it like this: When you accelerate a vehicle. It may appear that you are ADDING energy to the system. You aren't, because it can't be created. You have potential energy from the fuels etc. being converted into kinetic energy, which causes the vehicle to accelerate. Energy isn't being "created" from nothing. That energy was always existent. Just in another form.

Check out this Lawrence Krauss video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIDmzLfk0K0

There's also a mathematical proof from Cornell that the Universe could arise from 'nothing': http://arxiv.org/abs/1404.1207

So the question I have for you, that if you are a scientific person, does science's validity depend on what you think, don't think, understand, or don't understand? That is, as you stated, 'I don't see how...' does science depend on that? Not at all. Science doesn't care what you think, I think, or anyone else thinks. Being a scientific person isn't formulating or postulating what you believe. It's disproving what you believe. That's what science is. The goal if it is to disprove what you think. Maybe do more study in the area, but it seems this idea you have probably came from the church. The Universe could have, and likely did come from nothing.

I want to challenge you to think about something, something which really blew my mind back in the day when I ACTUALLY thought about the question. If you don't believe something can come from nothing, where did God come from? Secondly, if our Universe is too complex to have arisen WITHOUT a God, this means that God has to be EQUALLY as complex, OR MORE complex than the Universe, and yet exists (i.e. the watch argument, if you found a watch on the beach you'd know there was a watch maker, but that watch maker had to be more complex than the watch to create the watch). Based by mere logic this means the probability of God existing is FAR LESS that the probability of a Universe from nothing.

Think about it. I'm not trying to make you an atheist. I just want you to actually think and dwell on that. I don't think these ideas should abandon your faith in God, but rather think about whether or not they are scientific or even logical to begin with.

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Originally Posted by JustMeUnfortunately View Post
But I just don't agree with the Bible. First of all, I don't want to put my faith in a God which flooded the Earth, killing a countless number of people, instead of trying to fix it-and I really doubt there wasn't more souls than one worth saving.

Also, the stuff it considers sins. I'm pretty sure I'm gay, so that automatically alienates me from the bible-and though I can happily prove all the scriptures that cite "homosexuality as a sin" as mistranslations or misunderstandings and can be disproved with simple common sense, it still bothers me. It is also the same book which says a rape victim has to marry their rapist.
This is only one interpretation of the bible, which is why I recommended Presbyterian USA (if you're not from the US let me know) to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMeUnfortunately View Post
It also considers things like shaving your beard, cutting the hair on the side of your head as a sin, and, for example, says eating seafood as a sin but if God didn't want man to eat seafood, why didn't he make all seafood poisonous. It also considers working on Sunday's (which is necessary for some people because of the economy), wearing jewelry (even cross necklaces), touching a dirty animal (ever wash your dog?), or getting your penis cut off (which is something you can control) as sins.

BUT it says that these are sins that God can forgive as long as you have faith-which means you can only eat seafood or wear ripped jeans if you're Christian. Which makes no sense. Becuause if you're not Christian, you don't care what any imaginary God thinks-and if anyone should know that-it's God.

The Bible does consider sensible things as sins-such as incest, consulting with "psychics", pedophilia, racism, zoophilia, etc. as being sins, but why cutting the hair on the side of your head?
Have you ever thought about these things from an evolutionary standpoint? That is homosexuality may have been immoral back than because our species survival was dependent on reproduction. So maybe religion put these things into their religious texts because it was dependent on our survival and wired into their DNA to believe this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMeUnfortunately View Post
And the Bible also contradicts itself in many places too, which is something a holy book shouldn't do (google it-for example, it differs on how many animals Noah brought with him). And some Christians preach you are nothing without a God, which is just depressing to say the least. And if God is so forgiving, why does allow for the continual existence of hell and Satan-I mean he technically created them.
Presbyterian USA doesn't take the bible as infallible. In fact, the idea of believing SOLELY in the bible is contradicting. Why? Because WHO determined the books of the Bible, because NO WHERE in the bible does it say Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Matthew, Mark, etc. belong in the bible. There is no comprehensive list of what books belong in the Bible.

I'm sorry if anything comes off as being offensive or condescending. It's not my intent. But when people begin to question things, I find that it's best to question what they currently believe already so that they dig deeper and find their own answers rather than some prescribed formula that someone gives you. If I tell you what to do, you won't be satisfied. Only you can arrive at an answer that resolves your conflict. But I can question your ideas and help you arrive somewhere.

Good luck.


"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love."
- Carl Sagan
   
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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 23rd 2016, 09:43 PM

Hi Micheal. Thanks for the reply

First may I say OH MY GOD. I have been asking the question of "How did God come to exist?" For YEARS. I have asked countless pastors and religious authorities, researched a ton online, and the answers were either "he has always existed" or a Big Bang like event created him. The best answer I could come up with is a sort of paradox where, if he has infinite power, he created himself. But I am so happy I am not the only one bothered by that .

I don't really get things like dark matter and don't want to try too, that's just beyond my comprehension, and all of that stuff is only therorectical at best so I don't even want to try, but I suppose the Big Bang is possible, but isn't the alternate universe theory just a loop because how was said alternate universe created?

I don't help that I'm an arierophobic, meaning I'm afraid of the concept of infinity and the concept of an infinite universe.

I looked into Presybritarian USA churches (I do live in the USA), but I don't think they are as LGBT friendly as advertised (which is one of the reasons why I dislike organized religion), and, correct me if I'm wrong, but they have another book called The Book of Order which I don't want to deal with imo. I also don't agree the Old Testament as a simple foreshadowing, as isn't Jesus a sort of lesser God (I mean no offense) because of his human form? He is described as "God on Earth" but isn't that limiting himself...meaning God is always more powerful-and then there's the fact that God created Jesus and it just gives me a giant headache . But if I had to chose an official religion, Presybraiarian would be the one I would choose.

I'm not really that connected with religion anyways-I haven't gone to church for two years since I got OCD and started supporting LGBT rights (before I even knew I might be gay).

I have thought about homosexuality from an evolutionary stand point-and it makes a lot of sense in this day and age, to prevent over population and such. But, it's also kind of depressing that that is the only reason we exist-to allow straight people to continue to prosper. I also think homosexuality in the Bible wasn't from that stand point and more fear of what they don't understand, which is ironic since God knows more than anyone that you can't choose your sexuality.

I do have more problems with the Old Testament than the New Testament, but I think the story of Jesus has his problems too. First of all, Jesus should have known he was going to get killed by man since the beginning, and should have known things like how Judas was going to betray him and such. Just some theories, and I suppose God does have a reason for everything, even though, with things like natural diasters and diseases, it doesn't make much sense.

Lastly, the more I think about it, the more Agonisticism sounds more and more appealing. Either could work, I suppose. I have such a headache rn .

But thanks again for the reply

Last edited by JustMeUnfortunately; April 23rd 2016 at 10:47 PM.
   
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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 24th 2016, 04:05 AM

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Hi Micheal. Thanks for the reply

First may I say OH MY GOD. I have been asking the question of "How did God come to exist?" For YEARS. I have asked countless pastors and religious authorities, researched a ton online, and the answers were either "he has always existed" or a Big Bang like event created him. The best answer I could come up with is a sort of paradox where, if he has infinite power, he created himself. But I am so happy I am not the only one bothered by that .

I don't really get things like dark matter and don't want to try too, that's just beyond my comprehension, and all of that stuff is only therorectical at best so I don't even want to try, but I suppose the Big Bang is possible, but isn't the alternate universe theory just a loop because how was said alternate universe created?

I don't help that I'm an arierophobic, meaning I'm afraid of the concept of infinity and the concept of an infinite universe.

I looked into Presybritarian USA churches (I do live in the USA), but I don't think they are as LGBT friendly as advertised (which is one of the reasons why I dislike organized religion), and, correct me if I'm wrong, but they have another book called The Book of Order which I don't want to deal with imo. I also don't agree the Old Testament as a simple foreshadowing, as isn't Jesus a sort of lesser God (I mean no offense) because of his human form? He is described as "God on Earth" but isn't that limiting himself...meaning God is always more powerful-and then there's the fact that God created Jesus and it just gives me a giant headache . But if I had to chose an official religion, Presybraiarian would be the one I would choose.

I'm not really that connected with religion anyways-I haven't gone to church for two years since I got OCD and started supporting LGBT rights (before I even knew I might be gay).

I have thought about homosexuality from an evolutionary stand point-and it makes a lot of sense in this day and age, to prevent over population and such. But, it's also kind of depressing that that is the only reason we exist-to allow straight people to continue to prosper. I also think homosexuality in the Bible wasn't from that stand point and more fear of what they don't understand, which is ironic since God knows more than anyone that you can't choose your sexuality.

I do have more problems with the Old Testament than the New Testament, but I think the story of Jesus has his problems too. First of all, Jesus should have known he was going to get killed by man since the beginning, and should have known things like how Judas was going to betray him and such. Just some theories, and I suppose God does have a reason for everything, even though, with things like natural diasters and diseases, it doesn't make much sense.

Lastly, the more I think about it, the more Agonisticism sounds more and more appealing. Either could work, I suppose. I have such a headache rn .

But thanks again for the reply
Gotcha, I was under the impression you were still Methodist.

Have you ever consider agnostic theism? Or deism?

As far as M-Theory, I think getting into the details at this point won't be very useful (however, I think it may be helpful to pose this question here, if other universe exist wouldn't it seem likely that perhaps the laws of physics as we know them are only applicable to ours and perhaps another set for others?). I think the bigger question is why does anything exist at all? When it comes down to it you need to conclude the more reasonable answer for yourself. For me, it's an obvious choice. I find it more likely that nothing creates something, than something infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful, and everlasting created us. It doesn't mean I'm right, but if I were a better man, I'd say the former is more reasonable.

Even if you make things simpler. Think of it like this: When examining only the creation of our Universe let's consider only 2 options. The Big Bang or God. Well, then if we reason the Big Bang, we can ask, what caused the Big Bang? It's a fair question. But if God created the Universe, we should also be able to ask, what created God? (As you've done). Thus I think speculating on the issue really isn't too fruitful. We can infinitely question what was the cause of this or that, but in the end, to my mind, science is the only thing that is trying to find out the answer. Religion just says, 'God' and I think to me, and probably for you, that answer isn't very satisfying. In fact, it seems lazy.

That said, I still have some deistic/theistic leanings. So I don't find the idea of God all that weird, just a little less probable in my mind. I think if you dig into the science behind it, you'll feel the same.


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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 24th 2016, 04:38 AM

You're definently right in that science tries to answer questions while religion doesn't. But, even then, I feel all science can come up with more theories. Granted, they are theories that at least have basis in reality as we know it.

I know I'm not diest, since I don't believe a perfect God would just abandon his creation. But if I had to put a label on it (as I like to do), agnostic theism sounds literally exactly like me, in that you don't need to believe in the Bible and it's a combination of your beliefs and the real world "evidence" of what a God would be like. From what I could tell, you just believe in a God which you don't know everything about, which I can definently see myself as. I think that we are, honestly, never going to get an answer that doesn't have some criticisms or explanations from the other side. I just wish I could stop asking questions .

Thanks again
   
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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 24th 2016, 02:00 PM

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Originally Posted by JustMeUnfortunately View Post
You're definently right in that science tries to answer questions while religion doesn't. But, even then, I feel all science can come up with more theories. Granted, they are theories that at least have basis in reality as we know it.

I know I'm not diest, since I don't believe a perfect God would just abandon his creation. But if I had to put a label on it (as I like to do), agnostic theism sounds literally exactly like me, in that you don't need to believe in the Bible and it's a combination of your beliefs and the real world "evidence" of what a God would be like. From what I could tell, you just believe in a God which you don't know everything about, which I can definently see myself as. I think that we are, honestly, never going to get an answer that doesn't have some criticisms or explanations from the other side. I just wish I could stop asking questions .

Thanks again
I think the difference is that the theories are our best attempt at understanding reality, and that these theories refine themselves to become more accurate rather than being set in stone like religious literature. And while I hear echoes of the, "they're just theories" argument, theories are essentially facts, not hypothesis -- which people seem to associate a theory as being. After all, gravity is just a theory, and as Richard Dawkins would say, if you don't believe in gravity, feel free to jump off a cliff.

The thing is, we have evidence that these theories work. You see them in action every day. From a car accelerating, from it not skidding off the road, your laptop or computer running, even the fact you're able to walk on the ground without falling through it. These are all demonstrations of science and we have literature which accurately define them in a manner that presently makes sense.

Anyways, the other thing that came to mind this morning was if you've ever looked into Universalism or Unitarianism?


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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 24th 2016, 04:25 PM

First I want to say that I'm somewhat like you in the way that I asked questions about religion and the bible, but the more digging I did, the more I believed in God and the bible. The question about how did God come to be is one I asked for a long time too. But think for a second. All human beings have ever know is being created. A beginning, and ending, is all we know. How could we comprehend that someone was just there. It honestly makes sense. Even the first people on earth were created. Everyone after that was born. Do you see what I'm saying? God was always there and created our universe and all the laws of it. That doesn't mean he is subject to those laws and he definitely doesn't need a beginning when he created the original beginning. You have free will but God does still have a plan for you. There are an infinite amount of paths that can lead to the ending of Gods plan for you, and, depending on the decisions you make, you can end up there in different ways. You can also disregard the plan entirely and do whatever the hell you want. You have questions about the bible that could be answered if you actually read it instead of googling more flaws about it. Not trying to sound rude, but I don't think you get the concept a lot of the stuff. Either that or, you disregard what the concept is for. And theories are most certainly not facts. There was a theory in Germany that the world was curved inward towards the sun? The universe was actually insides earth? Is that a fact? In my opinion, and not trying to be rude, but you aren't thinking critically enough, nor are you asking any of the right questions. I think, and again it's just my opinion, that you already have something against the bible and are too biased to realize that a lot of the questions you have have actual answers ,which you refuse to accept. I know I may seem harsh and maybe rude, but I'm just telling you what I think me. By the way, how did you come up with 98% accuracy for the prophecies in the bible? How did you determine that it was 98% and not like 96 or 32 or any other random number
   
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Re: I Believe in God but not the Bible...? - April 24th 2016, 10:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by In the Rye View Post
I think the difference is that the theories are our best attempt at understanding reality, and that these theories refine themselves to become more accurate rather than being set in stone like religious literature. And while I hear echoes of the, "they're just theories" argument, theories are essentially facts, not hypothesis -- which people seem to associate a theory as being. After all, gravity is just a theory, and as Richard Dawkins would say, if you don't believe in gravity, feel free to jump off a cliff.

The thing is, we have evidence that these theories work. You see them in action every day. From a car accelerating, from it not skidding off the road, your laptop or computer running, even the fact you're able to walk on the ground without falling through it. These are all demonstrations of science and we have literature which accurately define them in a manner that presently makes sense.

Anyways, the other thing that came to mind this morning was if you've ever looked into Universalism or Unitarianism?
While some theories make some much sense they are basically considered fact, like gravity or acceleration, things like dark matter aren't at that stage yet. One day they may be, and there is already some proof, but not enough to consider them as fact yet. I do agree that theories our are best attempt at understanding reality, but technically the concept of God is a theory too and one that has yet to be disproved.

Unitarianism, at least according to me, is impossible. Unitarian basically wants people to be robots, unable to think for themselves unless everybody else agrees with it. With Unitarianism, at least from what I understand, nothing new would ever come out of it.

I do kind of agree with Universalism, in that religion is something that can help "define" a person-what you believe in tends to be a part of who you are, but I wouldn't call it a religion and more of a philosophical view point.

Thanks again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helpplease2000 View Post
First I want to say that I'm somewhat like you in the way that I asked questions about religion and the bible, but the more digging I did, the more I believed in God and the bible. The question about how did God come to be is one I asked for a long time too. But think for a second. All human beings have ever know is being created. A beginning, and ending, is all we know. How could we comprehend that someone was just there. It honestly makes sense. Even the first people on earth were created. Everyone after that was born. Do you see what I'm saying? God was always there and created our universe and all the laws of it. That doesn't mean he is subject to those laws and he definitely doesn't need a beginning when he created the original beginning. You have free will but God does still have a plan for you. There are an infinite amount of paths that can lead to the ending of Gods plan for you, and, depending on the decisions you make, you can end up there in different ways. You can also disregard the plan entirely and do whatever the hell you want. You have questions about the bible that could be answered if you actually read it instead of googling more flaws about it. Not trying to sound rude, but I don't think you get the concept a lot of the stuff. Either that or, you disregard what the concept is for. And theories are most certainly not facts. There was a theory in Germany that the world was curved inward towards the sun? The universe was actually insides earth? Is that a fact? In my opinion, and not trying to be rude, but you aren't thinking critically enough, nor are you asking any of the right questions. I think, and again it's just my opinion, that you already have something against the bible and are too biased to realize that a lot of the questions you have have actual answers ,which you refuse to accept. I know I may seem harsh and maybe rude, but I'm just telling you what I think me. By the way, how did you come up with 98% accuracy for the prophecies in the bible? How did you determine that it was 98% and not like 96 or 32 or any other random number
For me, it was the opposite. The more digging I did, the less and less I believe in the Bible, and he more I feel religion is an excuse for people trying to explain some things that science has yet too imo.

Every question has an answer, so all of my questions have answers, but answers humanity may never know, including the concept of "Is there a God? Heaven?" And so on and so forth.

I'm not looking for things hat disprove the Bible-I spend my time in less pathetic ways-but sometimes a though would come in to my head, like during a sermon at church, and I do research about it. I was browsing reddit for example and I came across this atheist post pointing out al the flaws in the Bible, and I was naturally curious to see if any of them are true (even though that post basically called all Christians "stupid" and "gullible", which I certainly don't agree with).

Basically, there is nothing in the bible that doesn't disprove the fact that it could have been written by a bunch of humans, without God, looking for a way to explain things that science couldn't and help make the world the way they want to.

The book of Daniel is very ironic to me, by the way. The bible basically calls looking into the future a sin (even though that's not possible without a God of some sort), but the book of Daniel is basically a giant fortune. 98% is an estimation, considering most of the predictions are historically accurate, with some minute details such as where and when some people died are inaccurate. But, with the book of Daniel, it easily could have been written after all those events happened enitrely by man.

So, yeah...thanks for the response.
   
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