Multiverse/Parallel Universe Theory

[Anthropomorphic]

I made this thread just to get some thoughts, opinions and theories from other users about the Multiverse Theory.

I won't dive too deep into it, but essentially it is a theory that states that there is an infinite number of universes in existence, each one unique. Some of them are very much alike to our own (even being so close as the same as our universe in every possible way except that a single person on Earth has different eye color). Others are so radically different from our universe that things we can't even fathom for ourselves are commonplace in that universe.

I'd like to see this discussion go about the same as my previous time-traveling thread ( http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f39-r...5-time-travel/ ). Just give me some thoughts and ideas.

A few points of consideration and debate.....

- Do you think this theory is possible?
- Do you think this theory is true?
- Do you believe it is possible (or ever will be possible) to travel between these parallel universes?
- In what ways (if any) might travel between multiverses be interconnected with the flow and concept of time?

[QuantumModulus]

I think that the multiverse theory is highly plausible. It conforms to our current physical laws (or, at the least, the foundations upon which those laws exist) and all of its predictions as of now are consistent with what we experience in our very own universe.

I don't think many people here are specialized and/or educated enough about the theory to answer the last two parts of your question, but my cursory answer to your third question would be this: I think that based on current malleable models of our universe, it would seem paradoxical to approach a boundary and hence a bit difficult to enter another universe, but if certain parts of variations on the multiverse theory are correct, there exist certain anomalies that, in theory, would allow matter to transport dimensions -- such as the theory that incorporates a 'budding' type of visualization to how a new universe is created from an old one. Whether it'll be practical is another story. xD

I think that if anything, our model of the multiverse would be dependent on our model of space-time...seems that because the multiverse theory involves an infinite number of variations for each possible outcome in our own (or perhaps dependent on some other one, who knows?) it would be central to the theory to describe how it works in terms of relative speed. There may be no concept of time associated with it, because the "space" between the universes wouldn't be considered space-time!

[Anthropomorphic]

Originally Posted by QuantumModulus

I think that if anything, our model of the multiverse would be dependent on our model of space-time

That's where it gets especially tricky, though. I mean, assuming there are infinite parallel universes, then the next natural question about their existence would be this:

Does every choice that any given sentient being makes create a new set of universes based on any of the possible outcomes of the given decision? In a simple matter of speaking, if someone in this world offered me a slice of cake and I said "Yes", would it create a separate universe in which I said "No"? Or does that universe already exist, and then just continue onward, denying me the true opportunity of making a choice?

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

That's where it gets especially tricky, though. I mean, assuming there are infinite parallel universes, then the next natural question about their existence would be this:

Does every choice that any given sentient being makes create a new set of universes based on any of the possible outcomes of the given decision? In a simple matter of speaking, if someone in this world offered me a slice of cake and I said "Yes", would it create a separate universe in which I said "No"? Or does that universe already exist, and then just continue onward, denying me the true opportunity of making a choice?

Exactly the type of intricate trickiness we run into when we get into this stuff. I think it's more of a matter of whether or not you believe in determinism -- which is a shifty discussion in and of itself. xD Probably one of the most classic philosophical question associated with theoretical physics and the nature of time (and its paradoxes) would have to be whether or not the nature of time and its 'flow' inherently causes for there to be a pre-determined order for future events. I wish I had a concise answer for you, but thinking about it is much more fun!

You'd also have to explore the containment of each within whichever universes to which it applies...and, to complicate things even further -- does the point at which there are two options - taking the cake, or not - even count as the cutoff point for when that separate universe is created? It seems that if you try to visualize (ha!) an infinite number of universes being formed in infinitesimally small lengths of time, that it really wouldn't matter if it took 13.71 billion years in one universe for you to say yes. What if it took a completely different amount of time for the same exact universe to form, but with that one minor variation? (And even so, it isn't minor! The subtle variations associated with the physical act of saying "No" or "Yes", etc..)

Also, stemming from this: Knowing that there is very little that limits the range of human thoughts, would there be a parallel universe for every possible thought that all humans have, or have had? The concept is out of the range of what most of us can visualize, but its implications are radical...just means that we need to learn more about how our thoughts work. My initial hunch would be to predict that there's going to be a lot of mention of quantum mechanics principles in the coming waves of intense neurophysical research.

[Anthropomorphic]

You obviously have a better grasp on this topic than I do, but I certainly understand what you're saying. As much as I would love to believe in infinite parallel universes, there's a fundamental flaw in the idea: It is, quite possibly, a paradox. If there are truly infinite universes, then that means that there are some in which it's possible to eliminate all other universes. By this reasoning, it can then be deduced that there is at least one universe in which this has already been done, thus negating the existence of every other multiverse, and all sentient beings therein.

[Pelios]

Funny I just watched a show in the Discovery Channel about parallel universes. It is impossible to prove they exist, even though I love the idea of parallel universes imagine having someone like you doing the same thing without knowing. Even though I believe there is someone out there in the world that looks exactly like you maybe not doing the same thing but similar. I guess the idea of believing in them is cool but I don't know where to draw a line as to how to explain them or anything.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

I made this thread just to get some thoughts, opinions and theories from other users about the Multiverse Theory.

I won't dive too deep into it, but essentially it is a theory that states that there is an infinite number of universes in existence, each one unique. Some of them are very much alike to our own (even being so close as the same as our universe in every possible way except that a single person on Earth has different eye color). Others are so radically different from our universe that things we can't even fathom for ourselves are commonplace in that universe.

I'd like to see this discussion go about the same as my previous time-traveling thread ( http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f39-r...5-time-travel/ ). Just give me some thoughts and ideas.

A few points of consideration and debate.....

- Do you think this theory is possible?
- Do you think this theory is true?
- Do you believe it is possible (or ever will be possible) to travel between these parallel universes?
- In what ways (if any) might travel between multiverses be interconnected with the flow and concept of time?

Practically speaking, to me it is unimaginable. The possibility of this being true can't be ascertained by any means. Not even by current laws of physics. You are talking about universes here that could potentially be fundamentally different to ours, where light is constructed of different sub-atomic particles altogether. Where sub-atomic particles are constructed differently themselves, have different masses, different charges. Light might not even exist. It's unimaginable. Everything would work completely differently. Our understanding of physics is based on our universe. It has to be assumed that our physics is almost entirely inapplicable to other universes, if they exist.

Now I'm not saying they don't exist. In fact I have a hunch they do... but I see no way of calculating any likelihood of them actually existing.

To travel between parallel universes, is a question of two potentially completely different sets of physical laws clashing with each other. Again, it's unimaginable at this stage. It could be like mixing water with oil, or mixing matter with anti-matter. I won't say it's impossible though. Nothing is.

How is it connected with time? Very difficult to say. Time works in conjunction with other physical laws/properties such as gravity and light. If gravity and light work completely differently in a foreign universe, then time will too. Again, this could be like mixing water with oil, or matter with anti-matter. Two different time-speeds brought together is something very hard to imagine for me.


Let me remind too, that infinite means infinite. No limit whatsoever. I bring this up in context of some comments above. So yes... it would include every possible permutation of every thing in our universe, including human thoughts, and thoughts of any other living organism on earth, or anywhere else in space. Human thoughts are somewhat constructed of matter and its behaviour, electrons and neurons, and a large variety of chemicals. This infinite number applies to other, radically different universes too, which would also have an infinite number of permutations for every possibility. This infinite number also applies to the number of times an activity may be sampled per any increment of time, of which the time increment would be also, infinitely small, but still larger than 0.


Let me move onto something new, and what I think is pretty important too. The laws of the universe we exist in were created in the big bang. They became what they are, and not something else due to very specific conditions in the first few tiniest fractions of time. The infinite number of possibilities then would have had an infinite number of outcomes. Hence, constructing an infinite number of universes at the same time. Universes constructed at that very early stage in time, in the stage when our laws of physics where being determined, may well have become something unimaginably different to ours today, like what I talked about earlier.

So... are we really talking about universes different to ours, or are we talking about the same universe we exist in, just with an infinite number of permutations of itself since the big bang and beginning of time? If we're talking about the same universe with an apparently infinite number of permutations, then what is it that makes this infinite number of permutations possible? Everything happens as a consequence of something else, and so everything follows a predictable path, that could in theory be extrapolated infinitely into the future, if we knew all the laws of physics since the birth of our universe, how they work... basically if we knew absolutely everything, down to every atom, sub-atomic particle, packet of energy, photon, electron in the universe. It becomes a question of whether or not everything that has happened to date has happened the way it has, because it couldn't have happened any other way. If this is the case... then all these infinite numbers of alternate universes don't exist, because all these permutations would be impossible, as there would be only one logical path for everything to follow. Of course, people will never know absolutely everything, but our lack of understanding of something doesn't limit it's function. Just because 1000 years ago we didn't understand how the solar system worked as we do today, didn't stop it from functioning.


But like I quoted earlier, I still think alternate universes exist, in potentially infinite numbers, but they'd have absolutely nothing to do with ours, and would follow their own logical paths. Same way I quoted earlier, their laws of physics would be totally incompatible with ours. It's impossible to predict what they might be, as we have no insight.

This eats my brain.

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

As much as I would love to believe in infinite parallel universes, there's a fundamental flaw in the idea: It is, quite possibly, a paradox. If there are truly infinite universes, then that means that there are some in which it's possible to eliminate all other universes. By this reasoning, it can then be deduced that there is at least one universe in which this has already been done, thus negating the existence of every other multiverse, and all sentient beings therein.

That's the other interesting aspect of trying to visualize things that may or may not be going on outside of our universe. Humans are confined to logic that only, for now, seems to work in our own little universe -- but perhaps the logic of things that operate with different laws is something that conforms to a different criteria of what it means to have a logical progression. Also, I agree with what BDF said -- infinite means infinite. And in this case, it may in fact be an infinite number of secondary universes for each of the initial infinite universes. It's a mind-bending thought!

I'm not exactly sure of the contradiction; may you elaborate on how one universe can negate all others? I think that if each new one formed is formed with very slight differences and that if our current idea of what a universe is is correct, then they'd be pretty much independent of each other and hence non-contradictory -- but it's not at all surprising to consider that we may spot paradoxes with this theory. :P

Originally Posted by BDF

Practically speaking, to me it is unimaginable. The possibility of this being true can't be ascertained by any means. Not even by current laws of physics. You are talking about universes here that could potentially be fundamentally different to ours, where light is constructed of different sub-atomic particles altogether. Where sub-atomic particles are constructed differently themselves, have different masses, different charges. Light might not even exist. It's unimaginable. Everything would work completely differently. Our understanding of physics is based on our universe. It has to be assumed that our physics is almost entirely inapplicable to other universes, if they exist.

I think I'm pretty much in agreement with you there. I don't think that right now we know enough about our own universe to speculate on whether or not we can interact with others! And I'm not sure if the fact that there would be two completely different sets of physical laws would hinder an interchange between two universes; if both have the most fundamental properties -- particles with mass; and those that interact with our 4 main forces -- then I think that whatever we try to make interact with that other universe may simply degrade into a more stable form that complies with those other laws. Again, I don't think anyone has a good idea about the answer to that one though.

[Cosmo]

In theory, I think it makes sense, but I don't think there's anyway of actually putting forward scientific evidence to support this. We can go on and on about how likely it is, how it works with scientific rules etc., but unless we have evidence there's not much to go on, and as far as I'm aware there's none.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by QuantumModulus

And I'm not sure if the fact that there would be two completely different sets of physical laws would hinder an interchange between two universes; if both have the most fundamental properties -- particles with mass; and those that interact with our 4 main forces -- then I think that whatever we try to make interact with that other universe may simply degrade into a more stable form that complies with those other laws.

You have an interesting point. But we wouldn't be talking about a simple chemical reaction. It might not even be nuclear decay or anything we know of. It could be on the fundamental level of certain quarks attacking each other like matter and anti-matter do. Atoms may be constructed differently, due to different charges inside them. You may not even need to come in contact with anything tangible do undergo this "reaction". Also... all these arguments are assuming that the infinite permutations of our universe since its birth actually exist, and are similar with respect to the 4 main forces.

But moving onto a totally different universe, which may lie in another dimension... who's to say there are the 4 main forces as work at we know them, or that mass exists as we know it? Atoms may not even exist, but instead sub-atomic particles may just somehow lump together. Who's to say they'd even have a charge? What would a degradation into a more stable form that complies with those other laws look like in that context? I'm pretty sure it would kill any person and disfigure any matter it comes into contact with.

[QuantumModulus]

Originally Posted by BDF

But moving onto a totally different universe, which may lie in another dimension... who's to say there are the 4 main forces as work at we know them, or that mass exists as we know it? Atoms may not even exist, but instead sub-atomic particles may just somehow lump together. Who's to say they'd even have a charge? What would a degradation into a more stable form that complies with those other laws look like in that context. I'm pretty sure it would kill any person and disfigure any matter it comes into contact with.

Exactly! We would be taking the risk that the universe into which we are venturing, and hoping that it's just the one that has that one person with a different eye color, or something to that effect. And, I also think that if there hypothetically was a method of entering or interacting with another universe, how would we navigate the multiverse (if it's even possible for us to spacially visualize the multiverse correctly) to find one that is suitable? It'd be unbelievably dangerous, and I can't begin to conceive of what a degradation into a more stable form, from a completely different set of physical laws, would behave like.