Reflection after arguing with my mother

[punkchique]

So I just had an argument with my mom about religion. I'm writing this post not because i need advice per se, its more of a rant/reflection and i wanted to put it our there, but not sure if I'm brave enough to post it to my tumblr yet. So here goes, and of course any type of feedback/discussion is more than welcome

This is how it started my mom knocked on my door and told me to get ready for church and I proceeded to remain sleeping, she kept trying and I kept sleeping until she cam in and threw water on me. That pissed me off but it also made me realize that it may be time to have "the talk" with her. Meaning, telling her the I was an atheist. But instead of doing that, I chickened out and told her I just didn't believe in organized religion.

I don't want to turn this into a rehash of what was said so here is my analyzation.

She pretty much dismissed everything I said, and told me that I live under her roof so I can't have my own beliefs. Am I the only one who finds that strange? She doesn't encourage creative thinking, she wants me to be a robot, blindly following whoever may be in charge. As the words were coming out of her mouth I couldn't believe them. I hate to speak ill of my mother but everything sounded so ignorant and it seriously infuriated me. She had no respect for my beliefs (or lack thereof). She dismissed it all as some "foolishness" I had "picked up" since I went to college, like "those metal things you have in [my] ears" (I have a couple of piercings that are not exactly common).

Then, she started talking about how she believed that everything that happened to her happened because she prayed for it, that it was god giving her money to put me through school, I almost asked her if it fell out of the sky at her feet. She wanted me to go to church to pay my respects. This brought up 2 things I dislike about religion (by religion I'm focusing on christianity, although it could apply to others and I'm also generalizing based on my own experiences) 1, is that I hate how it takes credit away from the people that really deserve it, because I fell that my family's success is duee to the hard work of my parents and that what I really want to pay respect to is my hard-working parents who have really done more for me that I deserve. And I told her this but she of course believes that her strength comes from god. Am I wrong for wanting her to take full credit for how wonderful she is?

The second thing I hate was the thing she said about how god answers her prayers. What makes her prayers so special? What makes my education so much more important that answering the prayers of starving, hurting, dying people all around the world? Why should god answer her prayers, what makes her so special, so deserving? She didn't like that, she told me that maybe all the suffering was to teach some people a lesson because its all in the bible. I was incredulous after that. How could her benevolent god used the lives of other people to prove a point. I could go on and on o this point but I'll digress because this post is getting lengthy

We then started talking about the bible, and how she believed that the bible predicts all the destruction in the world and that i should read it. I explained to her how the bible is a hand picked collection of books chosen by men and that its not even historically accurate. I told her I've read it and maybe she should read the history.
I asked her if she was ever curious, if she ever wondered and she looked at me as if I had said the most absurd thing ever. She doesn't need to wonder because she has "faith". I don't understand the lack of curiosity is some religious people. How they suppress their urge to question everything to learn about everything that they had to have had as kids.

Finally I'll address where I think I'm wrong. I do think I'm wrong for not going to church with her, even though I don't believe in it on one hand I feel as though I should go for the tradition, and the fact that it makes my mom happy and is a good community builder. On the other hand, i always feel like such a hypocrite when I'm sitting in those pews. And I vehemently disagree with the priest because he has some pretty homophobic views and preaches these to the congregation.
The only reason this conversation even took place was because I was out the night before and really sleepy and just didn't feel like going. If church were to be held in the night we probably would never have even had this argument. It was all a product of my laziness.

So there it is, and wow this is a monster of a post, sorry I totally understand if it was tl;dr But I did intend to got, I got dressed and everything, told her I was going but she left without me. I still don't know the reason behind my post, but its such a relief to get it off my chest. As I read it over, it kinda sounds like a rehashing of every religious topic that has ever been brought up on these forums, and I'm sorry for that but I really just wanted to get my thoughts out there.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by punkchique

She pretty much dismissed everything I said, and told me that I live under her roof so I can't have my own beliefs.

That is impossible. Even if she somehow managed to force you to go to church, you will still have your beliefs, and in fact they would likely be reinforced with your resentment towards you being forced to go to church. It's like someone trying to control your thoughts, effectively taking away your free will. I'm not saying your mum is... but what she suggested is evil.

Originally Posted by punkchique

Then, she started talking about how she believed that everything that happened to her happened because she prayed for it, that it was god giving her money to put me through school, I almost asked her if it fell out of the sky at her feet. She wanted me to go to church to pay my respects. This brought up 2 things I dislike about religion (by religion I'm focusing on christianity, although it could apply to others and I'm also generalizing based on my own experiences) 1, is that I hate how it takes credit away from the people that really deserve it, because I fell that my family's success is duee to the hard work of my parents and that what I really want to pay respect to is my hard-working parents who have really done more for me that I deserve. And I told her this but she of course believes that her strength comes from god. Am I wrong for wanting her to take full credit for how wonderful she is?

People's strength comes from their beliefs. It is pretty much what defines the entire human race. It may not be belief in any well known religion, or even any religion whatsoever, but a belief in their own set of values, to which maybe a religious upbringing has contributed. Other things that contribute to a person's beliefs today would be, school, media, friends, news, parents, other relatives, science... everything you come into contact with actually.

Originally Posted by punkchique

The second thing I hate was the thing she said about how god answers her prayers. What makes her prayers so special? What makes my education so much more important that answering the prayers of starving, hurting, dying people all around the world? Why should god answer her prayers, what makes her so special, so deserving? She didn't like that, she told me that maybe all the suffering was to teach some people a lesson because its all in the bible. I was incredulous after that. How could her benevolent god used the lives of other people to prove a point. I could go on and on o this point but I'll digress because this post is getting lengthy

The truth here I think is that she didn't have an answer. You cornered her a bit here, into saying something she didn't believe in herself, yet she did it regardless in attempt to protect her beliefs. It's probably what made her angry.

Originally Posted by punkchique

We then started talking about the bible, and how she believed that the bible predicts all the destruction in the world and that i should read it. I explained to her how the bible is a hand picked collection of books chosen by men and that its not even historically accurate. I told her I've read it and maybe she should read the history.
I asked her if she was ever curious, if she ever wondered and she looked at me as if I had said the most absurd thing ever. She doesn't need to wonder because she has "faith". I don't understand the lack of curiosity is some religious people. How they suppress their urge to question everything to learn about everything that they had to have had as kids.

It seems she chose a path of simplifying her life by believing an system of beliefs almost entirely formulated by others and the bible, instead of formulating her own. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It allows people to focus on perhaps more important things in their life, such as their family. They choose not to concern themselves with things such as advances in science for example, because it can just be too much information. Plus people who go down this route obviously have little interest for such things.

Originally Posted by punkchique

Finally I'll address where I think I'm wrong. I do think I'm wrong for not going to church with her, even though I don't believe in it on one hand I feel as though I should go for the tradition, and the fact that it makes my mom happy and is a good community builder. On the other hand, i always feel like such a hypocrite when I'm sitting in those pews. And I vehemently disagree with the priest because he has some pretty homophobic views and preaches these to the congregation.
The only reason this conversation even took place was because I was out the night before and really sleepy and just didn't feel like going. If church were to be held in the night we probably would never have even had this argument. It was all a product of my laziness.

So there it is, and wow this is a monster of a post, sorry I totally understand if it was tl;dr But I did intend to got, I got dressed and everything, told her I was going but she left without me. I still don't know the reason behind my post, but its such a relief to get it off my chest. As I read it over, it kinda sounds like a rehashing of every religious topic that has ever been brought up on these forums, and I'm sorry for that but I really just wanted to get my thoughts out there.

It's all good She needed to hear it from you at some point, and I'm sure you'l work it out between you and can still go to church together.

[JKmadu619]

First, I understand parents believing because you are under their roof, that they have every right to control you. This is untrue and against the law.

Second, I understand how you feel people should get credit and not God. Although I thank God when things go right, it really is the people who do it. God helps those who choose to help themselves. I honestly believe that.

Third, Her prayers are not special. God cannot, or does not automatically fix things. He will steer things in the right direction, but I believe he chooses to leave humans try to fix things. She acomplished so much, God helped her, but he did not personally do it for her, despite what she believes.

Fourth, the bible is written by man. Men who sin, men who are liars, men who are wrong. I do believe in the bible, I would trust my life to large areas of it. However parts of it (God's hatred of gays for example) could've just been planted in there by anyone. If something seems out of place it's bullshit. The bible is like any book with multiple sources. Some is great, some is bullshit. It's up to the person reading to choose what is what. However it is a good read, full of romance, actions, drama and flawed heroes. If you feel inclined to read it, there are modernized versions as well (The word "Badass" appears in many editions.) and although faith is a powerful positive thing, this does not mean blindly following. Jesus himself said "Beware of false prophets" meaning people would try to mislead you using faith. This apparently is lost upon many christians.

Use what some posts have told you and explain piece by piece what this means to YOU. However I feel the need to say this:

Just because this branch of christainity is not for you, try others. Lutheran for instance is supportive of gays, and believe although church is nice, it is not needed, and many other differences. However try a bunch and then explain it to your mother.

Good luck.

- Justin

[John 6:29]

I want to note: I don't intend to debate in this thread, so if anyone wants to quote me to debate, please PM me and I'll respond if I feel like debating, which I probably won't. As I've fore-mentioned in other posts, I find it useless. I'm simply responding for the OP, to support, and show somethings that are debatable. I'm not trying to "prove" or be right about anything.

I'll talk to you about some of this in PM's if you want. Your mom doesn't seem to be supplying correct answers that are either biblical or philosophically sound. In fact, some of what she said is just religious non-sense (that is, trying to appease God, when the bible teaches that we only anger God and He has appeased His wrath for us).

However, I don't think your mom discourages creative thinking. In fact, it sounds to me like you are both about the same, to be honest. You're mad because your mom doesn't see things your way, and your mad that she doesn't see things your way. The argument works both ways, and I've found that's why it's useless debating about these things with people. Are you not dismissing her beliefs as foolishness yourself?

Secondly, going to church, on your behalf, doesn't "pay respect to God." In fact, the organized church wasn't implemented until 300 years after Christ. So, how did all those Christians for 270 years after Christ's resurrection "pay respect?" The "church" in the Bible is simply speaking of believers as a whole. In other words, if you asked a believer in 34 AD if they were going to church, all you'd get was a funny stare because that person would believe they are the church.

God doesn't answer our prayers because were special. He answers our prayers because Christ provides intercession for His saints. God answers because of Christ, and Christ provided this intercession by dying for us, and Christ died for us because He wanted to display His loving and just nature. Thus it's all about God, but because God is love, it involves us, but it only involves us to give glory to God. However, God doesn't just answer our prayers because we ask and believe He will. In fact, I've known some who prayed for something and got the opposite. God answers as He sees fit. And yes, I know of miracles that have happened through prayer, things that even Christians don't believe me on, so I just don't speak of them. And yes, they were miracles, of this I'm certain. At least, beyond reasonable doubt.

The Bible is historically accurate. Some of the events of it are debatable, but the large majority of it there is evidence to support it's claims. I do not say this means all the claims are 100% accurate, to our knowledge, nor that all the claims have evidence, but to say it's historically wrong is plain ignorant, but I suppose your mom didn't know better. :P And I'm speaking outside of the Gospels, i.e. the historical books, the Pentateuch, etc. Again, this is not to say it's not debatable. But what in history that is ancient isn't debatable? I mean, honestly, were talking about things that are about 6,000 years old when we get into the Old Testament. For every yea, you can get a nay.

As far as questioning your faith, I agree. I've only been a genuine Christian for a little over year now, but I've been examining the faith for about 2 and half years. And to be quite frank, I find some of my prior beliefs even more laughable than I found my Christian beliefs when I disbelieved.

I do agree that we should question everything, but perhaps you should realize that this works both ways. We cannot accept everything a historian tells us, either. More reliable? Eh. Possibly. But again, we're talking about ancient things. Last I checked, there was no one to ask what really happened. Just analysis. Which again, is probably accurate, But all in the same, we cannot just accept everything we are told in school without questioning it. In fact, I find many people, with the exception of few, who accept atheistic views, who are ignorant and dogmatic about it, and in fact, they have more faith than religious fanatics. I do not say this as a "come-back," I mean it genuinely. Very few atheists know enough philosophically, scientifically, and historically to back up their views, in fact, most I've talked to don't even know why they believe the way they do, they just believe because a scientist told them so. I'm not saying this to insult anyone, as I find the irony in the relation to this and religious fanatics.

But I do get what you're saying. I absolutely hate when people don't question things. I.E. Right now I'm reading into Catholicism because I've found a lot of what I've been told about it through protestants, a lie. Yet I talk to protestants about this, and they REFUSE to believe me. They just accept whatever they are told. But again, this works both ways.

At any rate, I'd be willing to talk in PM if you want. I didn't intend to even respond this long, because I just wanted to give you some support in what you're doing, but point out some inconsistencies. At any rate, I am a Christian, and I disagree with a lot of what your mom said, in fact, I find it rather stereotypical of answers from Christians. For me, I've done separate thinking and research on my own to come to my conclusions. Rather than just what my preacher preaches. Well... actually, I don't even have a preacher because I don't go to "church."

[Noctis]

I would put it this way to her:
"You can make me go to church, just like you can make me go to school. But that's it. You can present the materials to me, but you can't make me care. However, if you do somehow manage that, the parents of countless failing kids will want your number."

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by John 6:29

The Bible is historically accurate. Some of the events of it are debatable, but the large majority of it there is evidence to support it's claims. I do not say this means all the claims are 100% accurate, to our knowledge, nor that all the claims have evidence, but to say it's historically wrong is plain ignorant, but I suppose your mom didn't know better. :P And I'm speaking outside of the Gospels, i.e. the historical books, the Pentateuch, etc. Again, this is not to say it's not debatable. But what in history that is ancient isn't debatable? I mean, honestly, were talking about things that are about 6,000 years old when we get into the Old Testament. For every yea, you can get a nay.

Only correcting you on where you're factually wrong. As an example: the entire story of exodus, which comprises a significant portion of the pentateuch, is demonstrably false. Some parts of the bible are reasonably accurate, others aren't.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Only correcting you on where you're factually wrong. As an example: the entire story of exodus, which comprises a significant portion of the pentateuch, is demonstrably false. Some parts of the bible are reasonably accurate, others aren't.

Thanks, but I'd say it's debatable. As most history is. There are historians who agree with it, and historians who disagree with it. To me, as far as historicity goes, I am rather neutral on it. I believe it because it's in my Bible, but I could be swayed. I've seen things for it, and against it. Again, it depends on the creditability of the historians, which then leaves us to who defines what makes them creditable, which depends on your pre-selected philosophical stance on the subject. That is, neither stances are unbiased, and neither are the choices in whom we decide are credible.

But to keep from straying, PM me some articles on what you're talking about. I'd be interested in reading it.

[punkchique]

Thank you for all the responses and support guys, they were just the kind of tone I was looking for
I'm not going to defend myself, or my point of view was a bit off, because this was a reflective piece but I have taken note of what everyone has said and I using it to further my readings and studies and just to take in another person's point of view.
So thankyou again!