My problems with christianity, not sure what i should do next

[david2357]

problem 1: The church says many things are wrong simply because "if you need that to be happy then you must not be a christian". that is so wrong. Christians still do things to feel happy. That is why they sit by the fire in the winter, thats why they relax and read something other than the bible, etc. they may say things like "meditation is wrong" because u arent thinking of god while meditation,etc.

problem 2: Getting saved is not as simple as many christians try to point out. Some christians tell a bunch of people to say a prayer asking jesus into their heart. That "getting saved" prayer is a myth. Saying that prayer doesnt do anything. In order to get saved you have to give up EVERYTHING to God. The problem is: i have no reason to give everything up. No incentive other than not going to hell. so what i do is i promise myself to god, and live for him for about 1 week, then go back to what i usually do. Yes i realize its a relationship and that im not just giving things up out of a legalistic rule , but id be giving it up so as not to upset him, like a relationship. But to be honest, that isnt enough of an incentive for me. If I was in a relationship with a girl , and she said that i couldnt watch porn, drink, etc. (things that only affect me), i would refuse. I dont want anyone in my life to tell me what i can/cannot do.

problem 3: most christians act like some sort of god fanatic. they are nice people and all. but it kinda scares me almost how many of these people are so obsessed with it. And its like something they just cant live without. This reinforces "problem 2" because it reinforces the idea that i have to give everything up. Some christians stay christian. I will live for jesus for a short time, then go back. They also view the world in a very strict creationist way.

problem 4: blind faith is closed-minded. Why is doubting thomas less blessed than someone who hasnt seen jesus, but still believes.

[Megan1]

1: There's nothing at all wrong with being happy and doing fun things, unless you put those things before God or can't live without them. That's the difference. If you can do something fun without sinning or making it more important than God in your life, then there is nothing at all wrong with that thing. Even Jesus did- He went to dinner with friends, went to wedding parties, took time off to relax, etc. That's in the bible.


2: You say that going to hell isn't enough of an incentive for you. If living these next 100 or less years how you want to is more important to you than your eternity, well, that's something you'll have to decide.


3: I used to think this too before I was a Christian. The thing is that we are living for God instead of for selfish desires- we give Him everything and we live to tell others this too. We do this because we love Him soooo much that we want to give Him everything. It's something that I couldn't have possibly comprehended before I was saved, so people who aren't Christians probably don't either and I understand that. To Christians, this world is useless because it is temporary, and the only eternal thing we can do is letting God use us to get others saved. Again, if that isn't enough for you, there isn't anything I can say or do about that....but I just wanted to explain because I used to feel that way too.


4: The bible says that God willingly gives us faith- we don't have to produce it ourselves. We have to come genuinly submitting to Him and desiring it though, not just asking to test Him and see if He will really make us faithful.

[JKmadu619]

1.It's an arrogant thought courtesy of hypocritical idiots. Everyone requires basic things: Food, water, heat, shelter, safety. No blind faith in God will save you, he may somehow intervene, or maybe it's just luck for you, but counting on that alone is insane. God helps those who help themselves. It's true, you make an effort to have a good life, and you will. I promise the people who say things like that wouldn't give up their home/Xbox/iPhone/Television/Couch/Junk food just because others need it. Unless they have done just that, they're lying.

2. Fair enough. However who said anything about giving stuff up? You're focusing on only one ideal of the bible so far, which is a varied book written by dozens of people over thousands of years. As far as we know any single section could be made up. Take things for what they are, and use your own judgement. Anyhow, no God will damn you to hell for not giving up everything to him. If you believe all of this, you're taking the bible very seriously, and literally. If you are, then you must believe that faith in God alone can get you to heaven, so I don't see the issue. Your logic is jumping, either the bible is completely true and literal, or it's something to take as you see it. Just food for thought.

3. Obviously I'm not like this, obviously not many people are like this. Yes I've met some "God fanatics" and they do kind of scare me. They pray too often and they cannot go more than twelve minutes without mentioning "the lord" or "sweet heavenly father" and it scares me. The thing is, the crazy people make more noise. They stick out like a sore thumb of crazy. I've met just as many sane Christians, but sadly they often don't even tell me they're Christian in fear of being persecuted by me, a fellow Christian for the idiots waiting for the end of the world ever three years. Some people are dumbasses, live with it.

4. I agree blind faith is close-minded, ignorant and arrogant, not to mention stupid. Logic does outweigh blind faith, but having faith in something, having hope keeps us human.

- Justin

[chickenonsteroids]

when you see an idiot in a conversation, you don't end the conversation, you ignore the fool and carry on

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Megan1

2: You say that going to hell isn't enough of an incentive for you. If living these next 100 or less years how you want to is more important to you than your eternity, well, that's something you'll have to decide.

This is exactly why I hate religion. Because every religion does this. If you are religious all you do is live your life for your death. Every choice made every action is based on whether the person thinks it will get them to the after life they want. And that just astounds me. Life is fact, we know it exists, we know how it feels. We KNOW nothing about what happens after death, if there's an after life, reincarnation, or nothing. So why in the world would you waste your life making decisions to get something you can't possibly KNOW FOR A FACT is real. I say live your life for your life. Feel and experience everything you can while you can. Deal with death when it happens.

[Of Mike and Men]

Originally Posted by david2357

problem 1: The church says many things are wrong simply because "if you need that to be happy then you must not be a christian". that is so wrong. Christians still do things to feel happy. That is why they sit by the fire in the winter, thats why they relax and read something other than the bible, etc. they may say things like "meditation is wrong" because u arent thinking of god while meditation,etc.

problem 2: Getting saved is not as simple as many christians try to point out. Some christians tell a bunch of people to say a prayer asking jesus into their heart. That "getting saved" prayer is a myth. Saying that prayer doesnt do anything. In order to get saved you have to give up EVERYTHING to God. The problem is: i have no reason to give everything up. No incentive other than not going to hell. so what i do is i promise myself to god, and live for him for about 1 week, then go back to what i usually do. Yes i realize its a relationship and that im not just giving things up out of a legalistic rule , but id be giving it up so as not to upset him, like a relationship. But to be honest, that isnt enough of an incentive for me. If I was in a relationship with a girl , and she said that i couldnt watch porn, drink, etc. (things that only affect me), i would refuse. I dont want anyone in my life to tell me what i can/cannot do.

problem 3: most christians act like some sort of god fanatic. they are nice people and all. but it kinda scares me almost how many of these people are so obsessed with it. And its like something they just cant live without. This reinforces "problem 2" because it reinforces the idea that i have to give everything up. Some christians stay christian. I will live for jesus for a short time, then go back. They also view the world in a very strict creationist way.

problem 4: blind faith is closed-minded. Why is doubting thomas less blessed than someone who hasnt seen jesus, but still believes.

Brother,

Hello. I share in many of your frustrations. However, I have some things to share with you that may help you.

First of all, let me point something out. You made a hasty generalization. That is, you seem to be categorizing all Christians into what you said, which is not true -- especially amongst Protestants. If you want a breath of fresh air within Christianity, look up Shane Clairborne and Aaron Weiss (lead singer of an indie band called mewithoutYou). In fact, if you can deal with his philosophy, his rantings, and his lack of clarity, you may enjoy reading Soren Kierkegaard. He made MANY attacks on the church. In fact, he claimed that the church didn't spiritualize you, but that it made you spiritually dead.

Now, before I start, I want to clarify something to you. I am not going to necessarily attack your points, but show where the flaw is, though on some of them I do agree with you. And lastly, please realize, each time we judge another Christian, we are guilty of the same things, in another manner. It's not for us to judge one another, but to judge ourselves in the presence of God. No one is going to be there with you on judgment day. No one is going to be able to take the blame for you. Thus, it is imperative that we place ourselves in the presence of God at all times to judge our OWN actions, not the Churches.

Problem 1:

Christ, the Apostles, the Prophets, so on and so forth, do not deny that there are things in this world that give you pleasure. However, Christ did pronounce many judgments on the rich, on the affluent, and so on. Christ also said that those who receive pleasure in this life, will receive the opposite in the next. What exactly does He mean? I don't know. It's not for me to judge the things of God. But I do know that if we have more in this life, our Spirit is in danger of the next.

Personally, I've found that getting by with just the necessities, I am happier. Christ called us to a life of simplicity. Yes, things in this life give a deception of pleasure. But we find true joy in less. Please don't misunderstand. I do believe we need to be warm, to eat, and so on. But I also believe that me having a computer, is, in essence, a waste of money. I am struggling with this Spiritually... I don't know how I can justify spending hundreds of dollars on "pleasures," while my brothers and sisters across the world are dying of starvation.

I know, from experience, less gives me more joy. However, I constantly give into the lie that a new computer game, a television show, a new book, education, etc. will make me happy. But, Christ told me, "Those who find their lives in this life, will lose it. But those who lose their life for my namesake, will find it."

Problem 2:

Salvation is not as easy as you said, you're right. It took the death of Christ. The early Church Father's told us that the Jesus prayer is essential in the daily life of a Christian. "Jesus, Son of God, be merciful to me a sinner." When you meditate on these words, it helps.

I have the same issues you do. I am double-minded. Yet, James calls us (the double-minded) to cleans ourselves, to purify ourselves. It is only by God's grace that we can do this. It is a mistake, however, to say that you come to God for salvation for RIGHT motives. We see this biblically.

Think of the publican, "Be merciful to me a sinner!" Whereas the Pharisee said, "Thank you Lord for not making me like this here publican." Yet it was the publican who went home justified before God. Do you think the publican was seeking God for the RIGHT motives? No. He is a sinner, he says so himself. Do you think he was afraid of judgment? Absolutely. Why else would he be crying for mercy? What you are saying is essentially, "Lord thank you for giving me the right motives to want to be forgiven." You won't be justified in that way. But only by asking God for forgiveness with every breath.

Honestly, even our good deeds are filled with sin. What else is there but God's mercy? Should then we go on sinning? No. We should strive to enter the narrow gate but realize that our only ability to enter through is the grace of God working through us until the day of completion.

Problem 3:

But they're all sinners. None of them are seeking after God. Romans 3. They all have selfish intentions.

As far as creationism goes, I don't think it matters. Why not just live and follow Christ? I don't think he placed us here to debate doctrines, but to follow him. Who cares how old the Earth is? People need clothes, and food. Widows need visitors. People need forgiveness.

As far as finding a practical reason, again, relate back to the people starving every day. Do you REALLY need a new cellphone when people are dying because they can't get enough to eat every day? I've heard a quote, I don't know where, but it has stuck with me. It goes something like (this is a paraphrase: "If we have a tunic, while another has none, we've stolen from that one." And, to my knowledge, this is true. We can sit here blaming everything else, but it's our fault. Even if you don't want to follow God, do you not care about them?

Problem 4:

This isn't true.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ron+weiss&aq=f
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...claiborne&aq=f

My suggestion for you, as I am learning, don't believe just because someone tells you to. And don't believe that the entire church believes as you say they do because you know people who believe that way. Rather, read what Christ said. Try if what He says is true. I believe what Christ says because what He has said, I've found to be true. When I read the Bible, I see that it relates to the world around me, thus I trust it. The Bible tells me who I am, and it's made me realize who I am. Not because it says so, but because what it says is true.

A lot of Protestants reject these, but read through Sirach and Wisdom from the deuterocanonical books. They put things into perspective. Just because Protestants reject them, doesn't mean you have to. After all, the early church taught from them. I'm protestant, I believe they are the word of God, just as any other book. But, it's not for me to judge what is literal and what is not. How do I know what is meant to be literal? I trust the Bible as a guide. Is it infallible? I don't know. It says in one place Judas fell off a cliff, another says he hung himself. Do I care? Not really. I know that Judas killed himself. It doesn't matter to me how. It matters that I learn to love others as myself.

I will also add this: The whole, "If you eternity doesn't matter to you as much as right now," argument, doesn't work. Christ said many will come to him claiming to have done all these great and mighty works, yet, he will say to them plainly, "Depart from me for I never knew you." Yet, it was the ones who were oblivious, "Lord, when did we feed you? When did we visit you?" That we're welcomed into the kingdom. And it was the blind who could see, and those who claim to see, are blind. Therefore, it is not for me, or anyone to claim, "This is how God is, this is how he operates." But rather, "Lord, Help me to see. Be merciful to me" Etc. We must depend on God. Not on Christianity.

[kiwi_fish_bunny]

hey,
Well im christian, nd hll half of it confuses me till my brain explodes sometimes.

2. For me im not sure how to explain it, but when i give up my problems to God then it actually feels like i have a weight lifted off of me, (for those who dont believe and what to critisise what i just said go for it, but this is my personal believes and how i feel, i prefer to have some sort of relief then nothing at all)

1 i guess it depends on who you have seen, who you have talked to, my school encrouages meditation (catholic school)
and when i meditate it gets me into a zone where i can have my mind reasonably blank so i can feel presance of God.

3. okay so i tried typing out a million ways to explain this, so ill just go with this, so you love your best friends right? and when yuor with them your feel at ease and happy? well For me personally that what i feel like when i'm "chilling" with God, yeah i know it makes me sound like a nutter but hay so what. it makes me feel calm, peacefull and that weight lifts off my shoulders. yes i still have bad days, yes my christian friends have bad days, and non christian, it dont matter we still feel pain, but we just have another friend to off load on

if i was closed minded i woundlt believe in God, i would be doing what i loved to do and thats party it up. LOL umm yeah, i dont know what to say for this bit so i just write this... LOVE! :3

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

This is exactly why I hate religion. Because every religion does this. If you are religious all you do is live your life for your death. Every choice made every action is based on whether the person thinks it will get them to the after life they want. And that just astounds me. Life is fact, we know it exists, we know how it feels. We KNOW nothing about what happens after death, if there's an after life, reincarnation, or nothing. So why in the world would you waste your life making decisions to get something you can't possibly KNOW FOR A FACT is real. I say live your life for your life. Feel and experience everything you can while you can. Deal with death when it happens.

It's not that you can't enjoy life sometimes as long as you're not getting unfocused from God by doing so, but you do have to decide which life is more important to you- the temporary one, or the eternal one. God lets you choose whichever one you want, and I'm personally going to choose the one that isn't going to be over in 100 or less years. Also, please know that I am not witnessing to people in order to get myself to Heaven. I am relying on Jesus alone to get me to Heaven, not on any of the good things that I do. I witness to people so that THEY can receive Jesus and go to Heaven- because I really hope that they come with me.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Megan1

It's not that you can't enjoy life sometimes as long as you're not getting unfocused from God by doing so, but you do have to decide which life is more important to you- the temporary one, or the eternal one. God lets you choose whichever one you want, and I'm personally going to choose the one that isn't going to be over in 100 or less years. Also, please know that I am not witnessing to people in order to get myself to Heaven. I am relying on Jesus alone to get me to Heaven, not on any of the good things that I do. I witness to people so that THEY can receive Jesus and go to Heaven- because I really hope that they come with me.

You missed my point. First of all death is not life, even if there is stuff after death it's still death not another life. However my point is that no matter how much faith you may have there is no way to know beyond a reasonable doubt that there is existence after death. Therefore I'm going to put my cards in the life category, since I know that that's actually happening. Also if heaven does exist it kinda sounds like we are going to just become mindless drones that are happy all of the time, how freakin boring is that going to be, rather enjoy all of the emotions and sensations I can now.

[Guile]

Originally Posted by david2357

problem 1: The church says many things are wrong simply because "if you need that to be happy then you must not be a christian". that is so wrong. Christians still do things to feel happy. That is why they sit by the fire in the winter, thats why they relax and read something other than the bible, etc. they may say things like "meditation is wrong" because u arent thinking of god while meditation,etc.

problem 2: Getting saved is not as simple as many christians try to point out. Some christians tell a bunch of people to say a prayer asking jesus into their heart. That "getting saved" prayer is a myth. Saying that prayer doesnt do anything. In order to get saved you have to give up EVERYTHING to God. The problem is: i have no reason to give everything up. No incentive other than not going to hell. so what i do is i promise myself to god, and live for him for about 1 week, then go back to what i usually do. Yes i realize its a relationship and that im not just giving things up out of a legalistic rule , but id be giving it up so as not to upset him, like a relationship. But to be honest, that isnt enough of an incentive for me. If I was in a relationship with a girl , and she said that i couldnt watch porn, drink, etc. (things that only affect me), i would refuse. I dont want anyone in my life to tell me what i can/cannot do.

problem 3: most christians act like some sort of god fanatic. they are nice people and all. but it kinda scares me almost how many of these people are so obsessed with it. And its like something they just cant live without. This reinforces "problem 2" because it reinforces the idea that i have to give everything up. Some christians stay christian. I will live for jesus for a short time, then go back. They also view the world in a very strict creationist way.

problem 4: blind faith is closed-minded. Why is doubting thomas less blessed than someone who hasnt seen jesus, but still believes.

Would like to point out, that's not the majority of Christians. Take myself for example, I haven't seen you around the forum much, but I'm sure the other members could point out, I rarely, if ever, use that as the basis for my argument, I am a major proponent of science, philosophy, etc.

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

You missed my point. First of all death is not life, even if there is stuff after death it's still death not another life. However my point is that no matter how much faith you may have there is no way to know beyond a reasonable doubt that there is existence after death. Therefore I'm going to put my cards in the life category, since I know that that's actually happening. Also if heaven does exist it kinda sounds like we are going to just become mindless drones that are happy all of the time, how freakin boring is that going to be, rather enjoy all of the emotions and sensations I can now.

It's only death from this world, because we are moving on to another. We're still going to live....just a new/different/better life than what we consider life now. And I can't prove to you that God is definitely real....I know He is real, but I'm not going to even attempt to get into that debate because I don't have proof. I have evidence, but not proof. So I'll just end that here. And if you read what the bible has to say about Heaven, it's definitely not boring. It's not that we aren't going to have any emotion, it's that we're only going to have the good emotions- but have them constantly! And they never get dull- every second will be like experiencing it for the first time.

It's kinda funny that the same people who complain that God doesn't help them because they have all these bad things in their life, are often the same people who say that they would RATHER have bad things too because it makes things "not boring". So they're mad at God (or don't believe in God) because things aren't perfect, but then say that they wouldn't want things to be perfect if they could. You can't have both. And this isn't specifically for you thebigmole, I've heard many people who argue both of these things. So really, they wouldn't be happy with perfection, yet they're mad at God/don't believe in God because the world isn't perfect.

One more thing- While we are still on Earth, it isn't wrong to experience different emotions. While Jesus was on Earth, even He was happy, sad, angry, etc. And the bible says that He never sinned, so we know that that isn't wrong. It's only wrong if we let our emotions cause us to sin (for example, being so happy that you become greedy, or being so angry that you hurt someone else). Experiencing emotion isn't wrong....you are free to do that on Earth and still be a Christian.

[nouse]

I haven't read anything but the first original post.
What I want to say is, the church can't always be right. Humans are still humans, and we aalll have a right to believe what we want. Some believe you shouldn't have sex before marriage, some don't care. Just because that one church may go around protesting homosexuals and saying horrible, nasty, untrue things about them, doesn't mean that's what God thinks. Just means that's what that church decided to believe for some reason.
In my opinion, it's all personal. We're called to have a PERSONAL relationship with God, so that's how it should be. We're not told don't have sex before marriage because its just so bad. In fact, the Bible isn't a book of rules, more like guidelines, suggestions, because God knows what can help you in your life and what will get you places and what might hurt you.
I know you didn't bring up sex, but it's my best example. I think the reason the Bible says not to have sex before marriage is because it could potentially hurt you. Remember the Bible was written before condoms, so everytime you had sex you could quite possibly end up with a baby. Therefore, you're stuck with a baby out of wedlock. Also because sex is considered sacred, because it ties 2 souls together. You don't want to randomly give away pieces of yourself to random people. You could end up hurt. So, that shows you that the reasons for saying no is to prevent the bad things that come along with it. Do you understand what I mean? It's just like parents, they don't say no just because, but because it might be best for you. In the end, God gave you free will. Have personal morals for yourself, don't let your life waste away, stay close to God, be kind to people, and do what you want, just don't be an idiot. Live for a good purpose, and the rest should be fine.

I hope that helps at least some of your confusion/frustration.

[Of Mike and Men]

What you sow cannot come to life unless it dies. In death, there is life. Consider wheat.

[Gymnophoria]

Originally Posted by cianne

I think the reason the Bible says not to have sex before marriage is because it could potentially hurt you. Remember the Bible was written before condoms, so everytime you had sex you could quite possibly end up with a baby.

I'm not trying to argue with you or anything, I just want to point out that from what I've been told at church, the bible is against all forms of contraception. Personally I think the person(s) who wrote the rules and stuff just likes to be difficult.

[Dervisher]

Live in your own religion and extract pieces of morality you find accommodating to your own lifestyle. Don't let others influence the small things in your life. E.g.: "Don't have sex before marriage" is obviously broken by so many christians it's not even funny. It makes me question why they don't just abandon trying to follow it at all.

Don't be a blind sheep following the herd just because there's a herd. You'll be much better off adapting to your own set of rules and you'll instantly become a better person because of it.

[Eldora]

Originally Posted by Megan1

It's only death from this world, because we are moving on to another. We're still going to live....just a new/different/better life than what we consider life now. And I can't prove to you that God is definitely real....I know He is real, but I'm not going to even attempt to get into that debate because I don't have proof. I have evidence, but not proof. So I'll just end that here. And if you read what the bible has to say about Heaven, it's definitely not boring. It's not that we aren't going to have any emotion, it's that we're only going to have the good emotions- but have them constantly! And they never get dull- every second will be like experiencing it for the first time.

It's kinda funny that the same people who complain that God doesn't help them because they have all these bad things in their life, are often the same people who say that they would RATHER have bad things too because it makes things "not boring". So they're mad at God (or don't believe in God) because things aren't perfect, but then say that they wouldn't want things to be perfect if they could. You can't have both. And this isn't specifically for you thebigmole, I've heard many people who argue both of these things. So really, they wouldn't be happy with perfection, yet they're mad at God/don't believe in God because the world isn't perfect.

One more thing- While we are still on Earth, it isn't wrong to experience different emotions. While Jesus was on Earth, even He was happy, sad, angry, etc. And the bible says that He never sinned, so we know that that isn't wrong. It's only wrong if we let our emotions cause us to sin (for example, being so happy that you become greedy, or being so angry that you hurt someone else). Experiencing emotion isn't wrong....you are free to do that on Earth and still be a Christian.

Oh, really? No looking at someone and saying to yourself: "Mmm, he's hot," no cussing, no being angry, no being jealous... Covers a pretty broad spectrum of the emotions, does it not? And you know what...? I find it kind of ironic that your religion says lying is a sin, yet does it every day to try and spread a word that most people won't even listen to unless they were already Christian to begin with.


This guy doesn't want to be a Christian. Even if you preach at him, it's just throwing sand up in the air. Eventually, that's sands gonna sink right back to earth again and start questioning. It's not gonna stick.

What he needs is a different method of throwing the sand: That is to say, a different way of living his life. And he will come to it on his own terms, and in his own way. I sent him his message, telling him to research different religions until he finds one that works for him... Or decides to come back to Christianity. I think that would be the best think for him to do, to find something else that suits *his* beliefs better.

He'd be a blind man clinging to another blind man's cloak in a cavern devoid of light... When really, all he'd need is the torch of knowledge to light his own way.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and OP, I suggest that if you want to remain a Christian, you listen to Cianne. She seems to know what she's talking about.