Something I want to say

[Liz94]

Throughout my Christain journey the most common thing get asked is about my homosexuality and the debate in the Christiain community in perticular about is it ok to to be gay?

Well I just wanted to say that for every Bible verse, arguement that you can give against homosexuality I can give one back.

God accepts me, AS I AM. A lesbain who loves God with all my heart and has given my life to God. So why if God can accept me, others can't?

[RadkeLover]

because most people are close minded, conservative, barbaric, losers who can't think for themselves so they just listen to what their parents told them as kids and decided "oh, daddy, thinks gays are f*gs and losers and don't deserve respect, I'm gonna think the same thing!"

[chickenonsteroids]

It's quite easy to cherry pick religion. All they are doing is following it.

Be who you are and don't be anyone else.

I applaud you for realising you can still be happy even if you need religion helps

[Brandon]

In religion, you encounter many religious hypocrites. The way I look at it...if someone says that you're going to hell for being homosexual, then they're going to hell as well for putting themselves before God by judging you. Either way, you're both going to hell even if homosexuality was a sin. If you end up in hell with the person who said you were going to hell for being a lesbian, then you can shove it in his/her face when the time comes.

[JKmadu619]

Radke Lover: It's nothing like that... at all.

It's actually a deeply rooted fear of homosexuality, or more so, a fear of being homosexual. Some people legitimately believe they are going to hell/are sinning, and therefore more people speak out AGAINST gays as if to say "I hate them too, so I'm not gay, and I do not need to be teased, taunted or mocked!" These people then increase the intimidation, making the effect snowball.

I personally see no issue with being religious and homosexual. I don't view it as a sin.

- Justin

[dr2005]

Basically it's because people fear what they don't understand (although I have to say Brandon's got a good point too ), and some people exploit that fear. Happens both inside and outside religion - it's a universal human reaction. Best way to combat it is to live your life in the best way you can and prove them wrong - for my part, I also see no issue with homosexuality and being religious.

Hope that helps and take care.

[Smitten]

What about for those of us who don't have an issue with homosexuals, but do take issue with bisexuality? How do you explain that?

By the way, OP: Thanks for picking a team

[RadkeLover]

Originally Posted by Smitten

What about for those of us who don't have an issue with homosexuals, but do take issue with bisexuality? How do you explain that?

By the way, OP: Thanks for picking a team

then the way you think is effed up, and i hope by "picking a team" you mean religion, if you mean sexuality, then let me explain something, bisexuals are not "undecided" we like boy parts and girl parts, we are romantically and physically attracted to men and woman

[Smitten]

Originally Posted by RadkeLover

then the way you think is effed up, and i hope by "picking a team" you mean religion, if you mean sexuality, then let me explain something, bisexuals are not "undecided" we like boy parts and girl parts, we are romantically and physically attracted to men and woman

No, I mean exactly that.
Say what you will, I take issue with bisexuality.

I don't care if someone is Straight, Homosexual, Transgender, or Asexual - but bisexuality is just (in my opinion) someone who is either greedy or indecisive/ignorant of their own sexuality.

I've know plenty of bisexuals and most have, with age, come to realize they are either homosexual or are straight and were just curious.

It's a phase - an annoying one.

Again, My opinion.


Sorry to Hijack the thread OP.

[RadkeLover]

well you sir, are an ignorant fool, bisexuality is legitimate and if the people you knew either went straight or gay, well then they weren't truly bisexual, they were bi-curious, there is a difference

[Of Mike and Men]

Where does the Bible say G-D loves you as you are?

[Toz]

Pretty sure the Biblical God isn't very accepting of your sexual orientation. But if past behavior is anything to judge by, your devotion to him will do you a favor and win you points.

[JKmadu619]

Toz: And where have you formulated this opinion on? Do you know God, like a causual friend? Because I'm pretty sure no one just visit's God's house for "Taco Tuesday".

Also: The fact that you are obviously not religious makes this borderline slander. I just don't understand how you can speak for a God that you do not believe in, and speak for religious people in general.

Smitten: All though I do agree bisexuality seems like an "Anything that moves" approach, that doesn't make it any less legitmate than other oreintations, and it's kind of a hypocritical thing to say "I [only] support all sexualities that I agree with!", because quite frankly it makes you no different than the people preaching anti-homosexuality in the streets.

RadkeLover: Honestly, although normally I find your posts somewhat whimsical or ill informed, I agree with you fully on this one.

- Justin

[Toz]

JK-
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:26-17

And it's shown in the Bible over and over- ceaseless devotion is the easiest way to please God.

Now, I would like to ask you the same question. How do you know my viewpoint on God is any less valid than your view? Have you seen God? I personally couldn't make it to Taco Tuesday, so why not tell me how it went? You obviously are better connected here.

[JKmadu619]

Toz: Obviously not, but speaking that God "Isn't very accepting of your sexual orientation" is quite obviously a snipe the the OP, or at relgion. (I suspect both.)

I never questioned the fact that God seeminly apreciates devotion.

- Justin

[Toz]

I have no problem with OP. Just pointing out a fundamental flaw in reasoning.

Seemingly approves? If what the majority of the West believes is to be held true, than we were created for the purpose of expressing our devotion. "Seemingly approves" is a vast understatement.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by Toz

Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
Romans 1:26-17

Leviticus 18:22 says "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman", so taking its strictest interpretation that doesn't apply here anyway. Same goes for 20:13 - and on a wider note, Leviticus and the Torah Laws generally are viewed only as applicable to the Jewish people and their descendents. The presence of the Old Testament in the Bible is as much about context as anything. In Romans, meanwhile, it is unclear as to what Paul was actually referring to in the first place looking at the original Greek, so it's taking a sizeable leap to declare that Paul was definitely referring to homosexuality. You may find this page of interest.

[JKmadu619]

Toz: And yet again, no one understands truly what God wants, but based on if you regard the facts in the Bible as truth, then yes he apreciates devotion.

You approve of the OP, so what? You were trying to slander God, or further strain their feelings about sorting out their religion and sexuality?

- Justin

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by Smitten

No, I mean exactly that.
Say what you will, I take issue with bisexuality.

I don't care if someone is Straight, Homosexual, Transgender, or Asexual - but bisexuality is just (in my opinion) someone who is either greedy or indecisive/ignorant of their own sexuality.

I've know plenty of bisexuals and most have, with age, come to realize they are either homosexual or are straight and were just curious.

It's a phase - an annoying one.

Again, My opinion.


Sorry to Hijack the thread OP.

I've never understood this point of view. It's widely accepted that people do not choose to be homosexual, so much so if that I walked into a crowded room and declared that, (that homosexuality is a choice), I'd probably be called a bigot. But when it comes to bisexuality a lot of people act like it's just the easiest choice in the world, like picking between Vanilla or Chocolate ice cream. The first person I ever 'came out' too in my life was a lesbian and she told me something to the extent of 'I used to think I was a 'bisexual'. But I hated sex with men. Then I met my first GF...etc'. And I've gotten plenty of the same attitude in reverse too.

I also know plenty of people who have said they were bisexual to come out as gay or straight. For a lot of gay people saying they are bisexual can work as a buffer, or a way to 'test the waters' before coming fully out of the closet. For plenty of straight people it's just simply being bi curious, or even an attention thing. But just because some people try out the label or use it for reasons other than truly being themselves doesn't mean I'm ignorant of myself, annoying, greedy or indesicive. I don't understand why it's so hard to believe that some people could be attracted to both men and women; it's not totally outrageous.

Oh and sorry this is so far off the original post lol

[Toz]

Originally Posted by JKmadu619

Toz: And yet again, no one understands truly what God wants, but based on if you regard the facts in the Bible as truth, then yes he apreciates devotion.

You approve of the OP, so what? You were trying to slander God, or further strain their feelings about sorting out their religion and sexuality?

- Justin

Oh, and you do? Call the news, God has been understood by JKmadu619!

No. I was trying to make her think. There's nothing wrong with questioning your beliefs.

Originally Posted by dr2005

Leviticus 18:22 says "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman", so taking its strictest interpretation that doesn't apply here anyway. Same goes for 20:13 - and on a wider note, Leviticus and the Torah Laws generally are viewed only as applicable to the Jewish people and their descendents. The presence of the Old Testament in the Bible is as much about context as anything. In Romans, meanwhile, it is unclear as to what Paul was actually referring to in the first place looking at the original Greek, so it's taking a sizeable leap to declare that Paul was definitely referring to homosexuality. You may find this page of interest.

Doesn't Matthew 5:7 say that OT laws are applicable to all of God's people?

Edit: thanks for the link!

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by Toz

Doesn't Matthew 5:7 say that OT laws are applicable to all of God's people?

Matthew 5:17 does say that - but it does so "until everything is accomplished". (Matthew 5:18) Depending on how you interpret Paul's letter to the Colossians - and like any of Paul's letters, it's very much open to interpretation - that time has already passed. John 19:30, for instance, can be translated either as Jesus saying "It is finished" or "It is accomplished", which could tie back into Matthew 5:18. Admittedly it's jumping evangelists so to speak, but given John was written around 20-30 years after Matthew by most estimates it's not an entirely implausible conclusion to draw.

Originally Posted by Toz

Edit: thanks for the link!

No worries.

[Liz94]

Wow didnt think this post would have this reaction

I would like to say that in Leviticus - it is the Old Testament for a start. Secondly it is most likely talking about a man havin sex with a boy on the side of his marriage to a women. Which I am sure you would agree is wrong.

Sodom is destroyed because of many sins. Plus the reference of gay sex isn't because the men were homosexual, but wanting to use sex as an act of violence and to try and over power Abraham.

Bisexuality is not a choice, it is not being greedy it is who someone is. Plus like someone else said some people come out as bi to test the waters. I did for example.

I am a devote Christian who prays at least twice a day and reads the Bible daily. Jesus said that to get to the Kingdom of God you have to submitt your life to God and love him with all your heart and I definatly do that.

[JKmadu619]

Originally Posted by Toz

Oh, and you do? Call the news, God has been understood by JKmadu619!

No. I was trying to make her think. There's nothing wrong with questioning your beliefs.

I'm getting this vibe that you're trolling already. You specifically told them, a direct quote: "Pretty sure the Biblical God isn't very accepting of your sexual orientation"

I called you on the simple fact that telling the OP that their sexuality is somehow wrong, or that God disapproves of them. I do not feel this was true, and it was not your place to point out that God "isn't very accepting." because I for one think that was a load of bullshit.

You were trying to make the OP think, but how? By making them further question an issue that has obviously caused them a lot of stress? By telling them they cannot be bisexual and religious because God doesn't approve?

No, nothing is wrong with quesitoning your own beliefs, but there is with sniping someone's sexuality, speaking on behalf of a God you do not believe in, and overall being a jackass.


- Justin

[Toz]

Originally Posted by JKmadu619

I'm getting this vibe that you're trolling already. You specifically told them, a direct quote: "Pretty sure the Biblical God isn't very accepting of your sexual orientation"

I called you on the simple fact that telling the OP that their sexuality is somehow wrong, or that God disapproves of them. I do not feel this was true, and it was not your place to point out that God "isn't very accepting." because I for one think that was a load of bullshit.

You were trying to make the OP think, but how? By making them further question an issue that has obviously caused them a lot of stress? By telling them they cannot be bisexual and religious because God doesn't approve?

No, nothing is wrong with quesitoning your own beliefs, but there is with sniping someone's sexuality, speaking on behalf of a God you do not believe in, and overall being a jackass.


- Justin

Well, if I were you, I would stop trusting your "vibe." I'm not trolling anyone. If I was, I wouldn't pick here to do it, and I definitely wouldn't, if I was staff- which, if I check, I am.

That being established, all I pointed out was that the God of Abraham doesn't seem to have a great love of homosexuals. I'm all for LGBTQ rights, but I'm against people holding fallacious views. I know- I come across as a dickhead. But it's a necessary evil. If people don't challenge other people to think about their views, or to reexamine their beliefs, no one gains anything. What really is the harm in me pointing out that it's illogical, at best, to say that the Christian God loves you, yet your idea of love is in direct contradiction with His alleged word. OP reads what I wrote and thinks about her beliefs, and one of two things happens: she decides I'm wrong, and comes up with a good reason as to why, and her faith grows stronger, which makes her happier. Or, she decides I'm right, and she gains a bit of enlightenment.

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by Toz

That being established, all I pointed out was that the God of Abraham doesn't seem to have a great love of homosexuals. I'm all for LGBTQ rights, but I'm against people holding fallacious views. I know- I come across as a dickhead. But it's a necessary evil. If people don't challenge other people to think about their views, or to reexamine their beliefs, no one gains anything. What really is the harm in me pointing out that it's illogical, at best, to say that the Christian God loves you, yet your idea of love is in direct contradiction with His alleged word. OP reads what I wrote and thinks about her beliefs, and one of two things happens: she decides I'm wrong, and comes up with a good reason as to why, and her faith grows stronger, which makes her happier. Or, she decides I'm right, and she gains a bit of enlightenment.

I just don't understand the point of this. I'm not singling you out specifically. I see it all the time on here and just generally too. For some reason a lot of atheists seem to think they have a better understanding of God than believers and make it their mission to make sure Christians follow the Bible to a T. Pretty much all Christians will interpret the bible in different ways, specifically verses that are very much out of place in our society (for example, portrayals of gender roles or comments on slavery). We hear reasoning like 'that is only metaphorical' or 'the bible was written in a different time with different values'. This doesn't bother me. It doesn't seem to bother other atheists either. But when it comes to what the bible says about homosexuality, that must be 100% taken as God's truth otherwise you are a phoney and don't know your own religion.

I agree that we must question and challenge our own ideas but there is no reason to challenge and question everyone else's as if it were a rule. It's good to do it, and can sometimes be a very important thing, but the fact is that sometimes it's better to just walk away and mind your own business. Take this. What is your goal in questioning and challenging her views? That she might read what you've said, assess her opinons on God and decide that to truly love God she needs to become a bigot? Is that really 'enlightenment'? Because I have to say, as an atheist, I'd much rather be in the company of religious individuals who are secure in their beliefs that their God is a loving one who doesn't send people to hell for being who they are, than someone who is 'historically accurate' (a fallacy because the bible can be interpreted in endless ways) and hates whoever the bible says to hate.

I think why a lot of atheists are determined to make sure all Christians are as hateful as possible is because they need to feel justified in their own hatred. It's hard to be a bigot if someone isn't potraying obvious negative traits. How can someone say "I hate Christians" and just generally be intolerent of them, if the Christians they are talking about aren't being intolerent themselves? If you convince yourself all Christians are going around threatening gay people, bullying pregnant teen girls, preventing kids from learning about sex, etc etc, it's easy to target Christians in a way you assume Christians target everyone else.

[JKmadu619]

Marguerite: I might have that post tattooed on my back.

Toz: You're nitpicking. Realize the Bible was written over thousands of years by thousands of people. The reoccuring theme is "Love everyone, be a good person." some asshole a thousand years ago may have very easily written a line about homosexual hate, just for kicks. It comes down to three lines that can be interperted any way you want. If I were to point out every line in the Bible preaching "Respsect thy neighbour" the list would be much longer than three verses.

Again, you have no proof if God despises homosexuals anymore than if he hates Jews, or thinks blacks aren't really human, or thinks women belong in the kitchen. These are old predujices, and homosexuals are just the new thing to hate. In the future they'll look back at us the same way we look back at those who opressed Jews, blacks, and women.

- Justin

[Toz]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

I just don't understand the point of this. I'm not singling you out specifically. I see it all the time on here and just generally too. For some reason a lot of atheists seem to think they have a better understanding of God than believers and make it their mission to make sure Christians follow the Bible to a T. Pretty much all Christians will interpret the bible in different ways, specifically verses that are very much out of place in our society (for example, portrayals of gender roles or comments on slavery). We hear reasoning like 'that is only metaphorical' or 'the bible was written in a different time with different values'. This doesn't bother me. It doesn't seem to bother other atheists either. But when it comes to what the bible says about homosexuality, that must be 100% taken as God's truth otherwise you are a phoney and don't know your own religion.

I agree that we must question and challenge our own ideas but there is no reason to challenge and question everyone else's as if it were a rule. It's good to do it, and can sometimes be a very important thing, but the fact is that sometimes it's better to just walk away and mind your own business. Take this. What is your goal in questioning and challenging her views? That she might read what you've said, assess her opinons on God and decide that to truly love God she needs to become a bigot? Is that really 'enlightenment'? Because I have to say, as an atheist, I'd much rather be in the company of religious individuals who are secure in their beliefs that their God is a loving one who doesn't send people to hell for being who they are, than someone who is 'historically accurate' (a fallacy because the bible can be interpreted in endless ways) and hates whoever the bible says to hate.

I think why a lot of atheists are determined to make sure all Christians are as hateful as possible is because they need to feel justified in their own hatred. It's hard to be a bigot if someone isn't potraying obvious negative traits. How can someone say "I hate Christians" and just generally be intolerent of them, if the Christians they are talking about aren't being intolerent themselves? If you convince yourself all Christians are going around threatening gay people, bullying pregnant teen girls, preventing kids from learning about sex, etc etc, it's easy to target Christians in a way you assume Christians target everyone else.

You bring up a fair point.

First and foremost, I would like to point out that I haven't said anything about Christians. I haven't made them out to be evil, and I haven't made them out to be good. I haven't commented at all on the moral nature of Christians at all, only on the nature of God put forth in the Bible. The point that I'm trying to make, and that many others have made before me, is one that dear Justin himself illustrated- that most Christians are Agnostic Christians and they don't know it. It's said within the Bible itself: you follow it to a T, to use your phrase, or you aren't a true Christian. An agnostic, according to Huxley, who coined the word is someone who "goes as far as reason permits," in regards to a particular subject. I, for one, am agnostic about the afterlife- I don't know what will happen, so I can't say anything about it. I've met kids who are intelligent enough to be toothfairy agnostics, or Santa Clause agnostics. Similarly, an Agnostic Christian would say that they believe the Bible is the word of God, and they recognize that it isn't reasonable to follow it to a T, so they therefore realize that they can't be a "true" Christian. Thus, an Agnostic Christian. And this applies to most people. You yourself said it: You'd rather be in the company of religious individuals who are secure in their beliefs that their God is a loving one...than someone who is 'historically accurate.'

The next part is just a place where we don't see eye to eye- pure and simple. I think it's more than okay to challenge someone else's views. This is what this whole thing has been about. To make OP THINK. Not to make her feel like a terrible Christian, or to make her feel stupid. But these days, it seems to me that trying to provoke someone into thinking about their core beliefs is a terrible thing to do.

Next, this apparent "hatred" of Christians. First of, you have to realize that most of what you see on the internet is from America. Whether you look on Reddit, or you look on 4Chan, or otherwise. That being established, no one is really raised an atheist in America. Most atheists in America are former Christians. Atheists in America are isolated as well. This is just me, but I go to a university of 35 thousand, and I know personally maybe 4 atheists. So what you see on the internet is also the only time atheists get together to have some laughs. Sure, it's done at the expense of Christians and other faiths, but so what? I don't understand the need to feel so offended, in today's world. It's faith- if you have it, and people make fun of it, what does it matter? It doesn't change anything. So I don't understand why people get so offended. It isn't as if by making a few jokes, that Christians and others of faith are being condemned the way atheists have been, historically- murdered, etc. It's all done in good humor, and/or to make people think.

All in all, I have no problem with OP or her beliefs, or ANY Christian's beliefs. Or Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu. I even do this same spiel with other atheists, who don't know I'm an atheist. It's just a good way to get the brain juices flowing.

[Toz]

Originally Posted by JKmadu619

Marguerite: I might have that post tattooed on my back.

Toz: You're nitpicking. Realize the Bible was written over thousands of years by thousands of people. The reoccuring theme is "Love everyone, be a good person." some asshole a thousand years ago may have very easily written a line about homosexual hate, just for kicks. It comes down to three lines that can be interperted any way you want. If I were to point out every line in the Bible preaching "Respsect thy neighbour" the list would be much longer than three verses.

Again, you have no proof if God despises homosexuals anymore than if he hates Jews, or thinks blacks aren't really human, or thinks women belong in the kitchen. These are old predujices, and homosexuals are just the new thing to hate. In the future they'll look back at us the same way we look back at those who opressed Jews, blacks, and women.

- Justin

Justin, I really am losing my patience with you. Almost everything you've stated has been refuted in recorded debates, time and time again, and I don't have the patience to sit here and quabble with you. This is the last time I'm replying, until you come up with a good enough answer.

You say that some asshole may have gone in and added the part about homosexuals. Okay then, we can play that game. What if some kind person went in and added all the parts about being a good person, or made the preexisting ones more prevalent? Would that make them any less valid? We don't know for sure, though I'm sure if you were to go to a Biblical Historian, they could help you out.

The same doubled-edged logic can be used for your point: okay, I have no proof that God hates homosexuals more than he hates Jews, Gentiles, or any other people. Except for those Canaanites. For an all loving, all forgiving being, he really isn't good at the whole "forgiving" part. But, moving on. Conversely, what proof do you have that God loves people? The Bible? It's the work of fallible humans.

Have a good one, though.

[Liz94]

I think that this debate has been a really interesting one. I haven't agreed with some things posted, but that is the point of a debate.

I don't think anyone has been rude. It has made me think though, not that my thinking has drawn a different conclusion, but I still thought.

[RadkeLover]

Originally Posted by Toz

Justin, I really am losing my patience with you. Almost everything you've stated has been refuted in recorded debates, time and time again, and I don't have the patience to sit here and quabble with you. This is the last time I'm replying, until you come up with a good enough answer.

You say that some asshole may have gone in and added the part about homosexuals. Okay then, we can play that game. What if some kind person went in and added all the parts about being a good person, or made the preexisting ones more prevalent? Would that make them any less valid? We don't know for sure, though I'm sure if you were to go to a Biblical Historian, they could help you out.

The same doubled-edged logic can be used for your point: okay, I have no proof that God hates homosexuals more than he hates Jews, Gentiles, or any other people. Except for those Canaanites. For an all loving, all forgiving being, he really isn't good at the whole "forgiving" part. But, moving on. Conversely, what proof do you have that God loves people? The Bible? It's the work of fallible humans.

Have a good one, though.

you say the bible is the work of fallible humans? well as i remember from when i went to church and before i realized it was a load of bullshit, they would tell us repeatedly that it is infallible, incase you dont know what that means, it means it can never be wrong, so you just disputed all of what you said, smart.

[JKmadu619]

Originally Posted by Toz

Justin, I really am losing my patience with you. Almost everything you've stated has been refuted in recorded debates, time and time again, and I don't have the patience to sit here and quabble with you. This is the last time I'm replying, until you come up with a good enough answer.

You say that some asshole may have gone in and added the part about homosexuals. Okay then, we can play that game. What if some kind person went in and added all the parts about being a good person, or made the preexisting ones more prevalent? Would that make them any less valid? We don't know for sure, though I'm sure if you were to go to a Biblical Historian, they could help you out.

The same doubled-edged logic can be used for your point: okay, I have no proof that God hates homosexuals more than he hates Jews, Gentiles, or any other people. Except for those Canaanites. For an all loving, all forgiving being, he really isn't good at the whole "forgiving" part. But, moving on. Conversely, what proof do you have that God loves people? The Bible? It's the work of fallible humans.

Have a good one, though.

Exactly. It is all the work of man. However why not follow the pieces that make us better, and better the world. Loving all humans and not killing, raping, stealing etc. are great. Hating homosexuals is not. So with the assumption that section sof the bible are false, why is it that one part (Loving others) is more prevelant than the parts about hating certain groups.

- Justin

[Toz]

Originally Posted by RadkeLover

you say the bible is the work of fallible humans? well as i remember from when i went to church and before i realized it was a load of bullshit, they would tell us repeatedly that it is infallible, incase you dont know what that means, it means it can never be wrong, so you just disputed all of what you said, smart.

Here I am, thinking idiocy has its limits. Yes, I said the Bible is the work of fallible humans. But the truths presented therein are those of an alleged infallible God. I addressed each of those specifically. There's no dispute there. On top of that, what about those who told you "repeatedly that it is infallible?" They are fallible as well. SO THAT JUST DISPUTED WHAT YOU JUST SAID, HURR DURR.

Originally Posted by JKmadu619

Exactly. It is all the work of man. However why not follow the pieces that make us better, and better the world. Loving all humans and not killing, raping, stealing etc. are great. Hating homosexuals is not. So with the assumption that section sof the bible are false, why is it that one part (Loving others) is more prevelant than the parts about hating certain groups.

- Justin

Exactly my point: most Christians are Agnostic Christians, but they don't know it.

Originally Posted by Liz94

I think that this debate has been a really interesting one. I haven't agreed with some things posted, but that is the point of a debate.

I don't think anyone has been rude. It has made me think though, not that my thinking has drawn a different conclusion, but I still thought.

Mission accomplished. I'm done with you kids, here. Thank you, Marguerite, for actually providing an articulated, thought out response.

[RadkeLover]

Originally Posted by Toz

Here I am, thinking idiocy has its limits. Yes, I said the Bible is the work of fallible humans. But the truths presented therein are those of an alleged infallible God. I addressed each of those specifically. There's no dispute there. On top of that, what about those who told you "repeatedly that it is infallible?" They are fallible as well. SO THAT JUST DISPUTED WHAT YOU JUST SAID, HURR DURR.




Exactly my point: most Christians are Agnostic Christians, but they don't know it.



Mission accomplished. I'm done with you kids, here. Thank you, Marguerite, for actually providing an articulated, thought out response.

now im just getting PO'ed at this point, and you make no sense. one moment you are saying the bible is everything now you are saying that it's wrong, "HURR DURR" no need to be mean, if being mean is how you roll, then don't do it on here, people here are looking for acceptance and for help, not to be called idiots.

[Toz]

Originally Posted by RadkeLover

now im just getting PO'ed at this point, and you make no sense. one moment you are saying the bible is everything now you are saying that it's wrong, "HURR DURR" no need to be mean, if being mean is how you roll, then don't do it on here, people here are looking for acceptance and for help, not to be called idiots.

Because you're making it seem a conflict exists where one doesn't.

I didn't say anywhere that everything within the Bible is wrong, and I have definitely NOT said that it was everything. I pointed out parts that were questionable. That's that.

I pointed out verses that said homosexuality was wrong. Justin then said that those parts could have been added in "by some asshole." My response, was that you can say that about any part of the bible. Yet people like to cherrypick the nice parts, and forget the bad ones. That isn't a bad thing- it's called being an Agnostic Christian, as I've stated multiple times throughout this thread. But by the standards within, you can't do that and call yourself a true Christian. That's where the conflict arises.

[Fanatic]

As Christians, I think some just don't understand that you're supposed to be loving towards everyone. Including gay people. I can tell you this that not every Christian will judge you as harshly, but I'm sure they'll say that it's not the lifestyle God wants. I think if you're happy the way you are and love God then you shouldn't worry. God loves you no matter what and that's the truth. ^^

[chickenonsteroids]

I think you should all read - "why Christianity must change or die" by John Spong. He's a bishop and It's an interesting read.

[rizz]

personally i believe that the bible was written 1000 of yrs ago and can be and has been interpreted in many different ways, you could hand 10 people the bible and ask them to read one verse and most would have a different view on it (my religion teacher in yr 8 did that to my class and the results were amazing) but one thing all ways stands out god loves you for you and if your happy within yourself god will be too, that's what i was always taught.

i'm also bi and i have had many relastionships with both men and wemon for love not sex, its the way i am and have been for many years and personally i think people need to judge a person by who they are not what gender they have sex with (not that i'm saying any1 here is judging each other on that (i hope))

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men

Where does the Bible say G-D loves you as you are?

An incredibly pertinent question that, curiously, has been left unanswered. I think it's important someone answers this, as it's very relevant to Christians who agree with Homosexuality.

I would also add that I agree with both Margeurite and Toz on different aspects.

With Toz, I agree that it is incredibly aggravating when Christians cherry-pick their beliefs, although I realise it's unreasonable to expect them to believe everything in the Bible, but when a group of people are discussing the Bible, and a Christian is asked "Here is a passage that clearly shows God's disapproval of Homosexuality. Why do you ignore this passage?" and the answer is something along the lines of "It's a metaphor", "Anyone could have added that" or even "God loves us all so that passage must be incorrect." it's an absolute non-answer. You have to provide something more concrete if you expect to be taken seriously, otherwise you're just a joke. If you can say "While that's true, in these three verses (x,y,z) we can clearly see that there is a conflict but, given the number that go against that one verse, I believe I should agree with these three, and that is why I am Christian and believe Homosexuality is okay" then absolutely fair play to you. I have no desire to force people to be homophobic, after all, all I hope is that people put a magnifying glass to their beliefs and ask themselves if they can really call themselves a Christian or if they have good reason to doubt or disbelieve certain passages of the Bible.

Also, I believe Margeurite's post deserves some kind of award. That last paragraph perfectly describes me about a year ago. Have you considered a career in literature?

Also:

Originally Posted by Toz

Here I am, thinking idiocy has its limits. Yes, I said the Bible is the work of fallible humans. But the truths presented therein are those of an alleged infallible God. I addressed each of those specifically. There's no dispute there. On top of that, what about those who told you "repeatedly that it is infallible?" They are fallible as well. SO THAT JUST DISPUTED WHAT YOU JUST SAID, HURR DURR.

[JKmadu619]

Cosmo: Good post, but realize even if God believe homosexuality is the worst sin in the world we are supposed to hate the sin, not the sinner. And we are not supposed to judge others, as that will be the job of God on judgement day, so Christians hating homosexuals are just as idiotic and non-christian as people who pick and choose the parts of the Bible to follow as I do.

- Justin

[Toz]

Originally Posted by JKmadu619

Cosmo: Good post, but realize even if God believe homosexuality is the worst sin in the world we are supposed to hate the sin, not the sinner. And we are not supposed to judge others, as that will be the job of God on judgement day, so Christians hating homosexuals are just as idiotic and non-christian as people who pick and choose the parts of the Bible to follow as I do.

- Justin

So... you're admitting to your idiocy?

It's really funny to me, that even if we hate the sin and not the sinner, it's the sinner who ends up hurt. Yet here we are.

We aren't supposed to judge, either? Tell that to the Pope, WBC, and every odd Imam in the world.