I'd love to get a Christian's response to this video

Toz

Keep in mind this guy comes across as a bit of a snarky asshole (kinda like yours truly!). But he is also fiercely intelligent. Try and get through the whole thing, and listen objectively.
You also may recognize him from some soap opera a while back :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvRPbsXBVBo

Cosmo · 11:17 PM

I now love this guy. Best video I've seen in weeks.

Oh man i cannot wait for the first Christian to respond here saying that God gave us free will and that that's enough to justify all of it.

Revolution

I love it. Oh wait, not a Christian. Sorry. Just had to express it. His sarcastic assholeness only makes me adore him more. He believes everything I believe but am too polite to say.

ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

I am a Christian and yes I did watch the WHOLE thing. First of all,, God did say did tell them to obey him and He DID follow through with the humans dying if they did not ( just not on the spot but as you know we do die.) Secondly, the idea of animals dying for human sins is a result of the fact that sin MUST be paid for with blood, which is why Jesus had to die his blood was shed for sins. Also, the "accounts" the Gospels/Acts were very strictly read and reviewed by leaders in the early church before being allowed in today's "Canon" or modern-day Bible(New Testament, in this case. which took 100s of years to finalize between 350 and 500 AD.

Also, the idea of copies of copies of copies, while true results from them being so careful to have handwritten every letter (even COUNTING every letter, but people are human and they do copy things in various ways, but they were REQUIRED to COUNT each letter to make it actuate.
Also, is REASON the things were not recorded sooner is that the early church assumed that Jesus was coming back in their lifetime, thus there would be no need to write the accounts down because there would be eye witnesses. It was only after they realize other wise that they began writing accounts down. All of the accounts come from either eye-witnesses or people who knew them directly not like knew someone who knew someone who knew the eye witnesses.
Also, there ARE still miracles today and He HAS made Himself known.
I am a Christian.

Eldora

Okay, I know I'm not a Christian, however, I'm going to senselessly post on this thing and say just how happy I am to watch this thing and realize that no matter how many Christians I am surrounded by, I'm not alone in searching for the truth.

I'm watching every last one of these things (or at least as many of them as I can), and I've subscribed to this dude's channel. I love this.

youbetheanchor

Well Emily already gave the expected response.. I don't know guys, I mean I'm not a 100% omg follow everythin dis book says Christian but I do believe in it etc.

My response to the video: All great points I must say, definitely going to check out more from him. Honestly,though, none of it "bothered" me. I don't really get why a God who decided to present Good & Bad is so heavily criticized. Unless you're a morally unsound individual, why the fuck should any of it matter? Seriously now do any of you sit there saying "omg I'm soo bad I goes to hell yo!" - Of course not.

Again, I'll say I am not a very devout Christian but there's a small glimpse into the mind of the un-ignorant

Toz

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

I am a Christian and yes I did watch the WHOLE thing. First of all,, God did say did tell them to obey him and He DID follow through with the humans dying if they did not ( just not on the spot but as you know we do die.) Secondly, the idea of animals dying for human sins is a result of the fact that sin MUST be paid for with blood, which is why Jesus had to die his blood was shed for sins. Also, the "accounts" the Gospels/Acts were very strictly read and reviewed by leaders in the early church before being allowed in today's "Canon" or modern-day Bible(New Testament, in this case. which took 100s of years to finalize between 350 and 500 AD.

Also, the idea of copies of copies of copies, while true results from them being so careful to have handwritten every letter (even COUNTING every letter, but people are human and they do copy things in various ways, but they were REQUIRED to COUNT each letter to make it actuate.
Also, is REASON the things were not recorded sooner is that the early church assumed that Jesus was coming back in their lifetime, thus there would be no need to write the accounts down because there would be eye witnesses. It was only after they realize other wise that they began writing accounts down. All of the accounts come from either eye-witnesses or people who knew them directly not like knew someone who knew someone who knew the eye witnesses.
Also, there ARE still miracles today and He HAS made Himself known.
I am a Christian.

Paying for sin in blood.... doesn't that seem more than a little barbaric for you?

Oh yeah? What are these miracles?

~Mr. Self Destruct~

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbetheanchor

My response to the video: All great points I must say, definitely going to check out more from him. Honestly,though, none of it "bothered" me. I don't really get why a God who decided to present Good & Bad is so heavily criticized. Unless you're a morally unsound individual, why the fuck should any of it matter? Seriously now do any of you sit there saying "omg I'm soo bad I goes to hell yo!" - Of course not.

All I'm going to say is: "moral subjectivity".
Please, learn about it.

youbetheanchor

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Mr. Self Destruct~

All I'm going to say is: "moral subjectivity".
Please, learn about it.

There's no need to be like that. I understand people have different views on morality but the thread asked for a Christian view which is what I gave.

Troll Attempt - Failed

Eldora

I'm pretty sure Matt wasn't trolling. I think he was just trying to tell you to learn about 'moral subjectivity'.

Actually, there are quite a lot of us who choose not to believe in God because we find what he and his people teach to be completely ubsurd. We study the Bible and Christian teachings and criticize them and post videos like this to try and help people to understand exactly what they're believing in.

And your God is criticized because there are so many things that he has supposedly done wrong, and so many contradictions. Honestly, how could a merciful and compassionate god wipe out the entire human population but for several chosen people, then make them be incest and repopulate the earth with what would essentially be a bunch of stupid blockheads, only to say: "Oh, hey, one day, I'm just gonna say 'boo!' and the whole world is going to erupt into flames?"

I think that all this guy was trying to do was share his beliefs and help people to step back and take a real hard look at what they're learning about and worshipping.

Also, I'd like to make the point that I'm the best friend of a very dedicated Christian, and I generally tend to get along with Christians... Unless they lash out at me or others who believe similarly to me. Then I like to speak my mind.

ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toz

Paying for sin in blood.... doesn't that seem more than a little barbaric for you?

Oh yeah? What are these miracles?

no what do you WANT it to be paid for with? It is like this say you were in jail (justly or unjustly) and say I paid the bail bondsman, but until you accepted that you still would not be free and there are a LOT of miracles if you like I will e-mail you my testimony and I can also give you at LEAST two other examples of things and you tell me what you would call them.

alixthetree

haha I liked the video. I consider myself agnostic but have gone to church and because of the doubts in my beliefs I no longer consider myself a christian. And I got into an argument with my grandma just about an hour ago about God, so that makes this even funnier.

dr2005

I got to about 1:50ish before the number of unfounded assumptions got on my nerves (I did try and give him the benefit of the doubt, honest

), so I'm not really in a position to comment on the video as a whole. I will try and watch it again later because, let's be honest, getting barely 1/5th through is pretty poor. For now, my issues with it are as follows:

Who says that everything that happens in the Universe is a direct, unequivocal result of "God's plan"? The plan itself may be of such a general, potentially vague nature that there exists room for events to occur outside of its remit without wrecking it.
The video assumes that the entire course of the lifespan of the Universe, down to the very finest details, was all predetermined and pre-planned before the very beginning of the Universe. This not only assumes that determinism is 100% correct, which is very dubious philosophy, but that it was actually set out in such a manner. For all we actually know, God (if He exists) could be aware of all potential outcomes for the Universe at any one time based on the actions which occur within it, without preordaining one route or another. That is not incompatible with omniscience or the concept of a pre-existing plan.
Who says we can't question the plan? The very existence of such videos, as well as accounts of dischord in the Bible, give the lie to that suggestion.
Did God actually specifically create Lucifer for that intention, or was Lucifer simply given the freedom to choose his destiny and made that one? Mixing up "will" and "could" is at best sloppy and at worst intellectual dishonesty.
Who said God actively created Hell? Last time I checked, it was defined purely as "the absence of God", a separation in the relationship between a person and God brought about by their own choosing. Creating another dimension has nothing to do with it.
The video criticises the notion of imposing external standards by way of "sin", yet seems to give no explanation for the fact that we do this on a daily basis without the same kind of objection.

As I said, I only got a very short way into the video so this may all be out of context and will be cleared up further in. On the basis of what I've seen thus far, though, I'm not hopeful. Nonetheless, I reserve the right to review these comments once I've actually viewed the whole thing, so please don't rip my head off in the meantime. I'm just tired and a little cranky.

And Matt, much as your post implies it's a cop-out, free will does come into the equation somewhere. Deal with it.

Tegan

First off I am a Christian and a Philosophy major so my view of Theism is slightly twisted?
And although I can see where the comedic value of this guy would come from, you're right, he does come across as a snarky asshole.
You asked for a Christian's point of view, but there are so many denominations of Christianity out there its difficult to pinpoint one point of view? I'm a really liberal Christian so I'm probably not the best judge of what this video means to Christians but I'll throw in my two pence anyway?
1) he mentions the God knows all things that have happened/are happening/will happen, true. He uses the example of God creating Lucifer, the fallen angel knowing that he will fall. For me, I see Lucifer and the devil as metaphorical images of sinfull behaviour within humans. A sort of metaphor? Thus I discredit this example. But acknowledge his point, however if he is talking about the God of Christian theism then he must acknowledge that God is everlasting, if everlasting is taken to mean timeless then God is in a state of 'now' which means that everything that ever happened in the history of time and everything that will ever happen is presented to God in one moment; this is a form of omniscience which is also an attribute of a Christian God.
2) he goes on and on and on about the Bible, but different denominations of Christianity have different relationships with the Bible. Plus I love how he picks an chooses the best Biblical quotes to support his (largely anti-Christian premise). Additionally if he's addressing this to his "Christian Friends" at what point in time is he going to talk to his Jewish or Muslim friends whose Holy texts also contain such decrees? (if he has made videos talking to other religions I apologise, I didn't look!)
3) Flaws in design, see point 1 on the everlasting timeless God.
4) Literal interpretation of Genesis. As a liberal Christian I haven't taken Genesis word for word since I was about ten. Personally I believe it to be a metaphor for temptation.
5) Literal belief in Hell. To me Hell is an eternity without God or reality, once again it is a metaphor to many Christians. That means many Christians don't think its a real place.

I give up... I watched 4 minutes and 14 seconds of the video.

Cosmo

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr2005

Who says that everything that happens in the Universe is a direct, unequivocal result of "God's plan"? The plan itself may be of such a general, potentially vague nature that there exists room for events to occur outside of its remit without wrecking it.

There is only one future. There is no free will because God already knows the choice we are going to make. I find it difficult to believe that God's plan is a vague one where he couldn't really be bothered to think up anything more specific. It seems more like you're trying to twist the idea so that they can accommodate the facts, which never works. Yes, you've technically twisted it enough that it's not an option, but the problem is it's so twisted that it causes many other issues; for instance, we cannot know God's plan. Further, you cannot prove that it is vague; we can, however, prove that the biblical idea of God's plan, one that the vast majority of Christians believe in, is incompatible with logic. Further; if one is to use the argument 'God is outside of logic' you automatically forfeit the right to be taken seriously, as you've shamed yourself immensely by proving to be a brainwashed zombie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr2005

The video assumes that the entire course of the lifespan of the Universe, down to the very finest details, was all predetermined and pre-planned before the very beginning of the Universe. This not only assumes that determinism is 100% correct, which is very dubious philosophy, but that it was actually set out in such a manner. For all we actually know, God (if He exists) could be aware of all potential outcomes for the Universe at any one time based on the actions which occur within it, without preordaining one route or another. That is not incompatible with omniscience or the concept of a pre-existing plan.

I believe that it's fully incompatible. If God is all-knowing, then he already knows the the actual outcome of all the potential outcomes. Unless you want to argue that the fact that he is all-powerful means he can force himself to not know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr2005

Did God actually specifically create Lucifer for that intention, or was Lucifer simply given the freedom to choose his destiny and made that one? Mixing up "will" and "could" is at best sloppy and at worst intellectual dishonesty.

Again, this assumes that God did not already know what Satan would choose; which is impossible because he is All-Knowing. If you believe God is all-knowing then you must believe in Determinism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr2005

Who said God actively created Hell? Last time I checked, it was defined purely as "the absence of God", a separation in the relationship between a person and God brought about by their own choosing. Creating another dimension has nothing to do with it.

That depends what type of Christian you are. More conservative Christians definitely do believe that Hell is more than just eternal separation from God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr2005

The video criticises the notion of imposing external standards by way of "sin", yet seems to give no explanation for the fact that we do this on a daily basis without the same kind of objection.

I think the difference is the consequences of it. We agree, as a whole, as a society, on what we allow and do not allow. For instance, murder is unacceptable because it hurts people which is not something we want. If you choose to do it, you'll be imprisoned for a period of time and then released.

If you don't believe in God then you're doomed to hell for Eternity with no chance of redemption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr2005

And Matt, much as your post implies it's a cop-out, free will does come into the equation somewhere. Deal with it.

Probably because it IS A COP-OUT. It's the worst argument I've ever heard in my entire life for the existence of God, and quite frankly it's intellectual laziness as it does not take into consideration the fact that God knows what you will do before you do, totally destroying the idea of free-will. At most it's an illusion.
I make a point of automatically quitting debating with anyone lazy/ignorant enough to argue that, for example, evil (especially Natural Evil) exists in the world because God allows free-will.

Revolution

This one isn't as in depth or as analytical, but I thought you guys might enjoy this one as well. Funny for the nonbelievers, also more easily arguable, but funny.

Yorehl

Loved it! Now I just wish he'd do the same thing for Judaism, Islam, Wicca, and Atheism and prove that all religious debates are futile and that we should just accept each others beliefs.

Megan1

I used to watch this guy on General Hospital when I was little.

Anyways....I have sooo much to say to this video and am in a rush right now, so I'll come back later.

girlfromsocal

I can't see it. I'm not a christian muslim here but usuaully it applies the same. But sadly I can't see it...

girlfromsocal

I saw half of it and he just seems upset. That doesn't disprove scientific facts proving GOD's existence. I believe GOD makes tests for us all as is taught in our religion. If GOD wanted us to go to heaven we would but that's not what HE wants I don't believe. That's why lucifer exists to tempt us vut with GOD we should prevail. Not all of us turn to GOD. And his flaw especially is in creationism. As I believe in the big bang as that's what's taught in my faith. He's actually proving it to be true however the guy on youtube is dissatisfied. But as far as I know he's only a servant to GOD if he doesn't like this world. He can leave it because he didn't create the earth. I can question GOD's plan all day but I'd just be hurting myself. GOD I don't think care if I approve of the way HE made this world not thoug I think it's beautiful and the big bang is a demonstration of how great GOD is. The guy on youtube has to realize he never made anything never owed anything so his complaints are futile.

girlfromsocal

the jesus part is hilarious though. As it always is.

Megan1

Okay, I'm going to respond to the check list one by one. This is going to be kinda long, but my thoughts would get all jumbled if I didn't do it this way. If there is one that I leave out, such as the first one "Decide to arrange for something other than yourself to exist", I am leaving it out because He's right and there's nothing to argue. Also, I'm just giving a Christian opinion since it was asked. I don't want to debate, mainly because this is so long that it would go on aimlessly forever. If you have any serious thoughts or questions that have purpose, feel free to send me a private message. Otherwise, this is the only thing that I will be posting in this thread.

"Create a being by the name of Lucifer, with full knowledge that this being will betray you and ultimitely cause an infinite amount of suffering unnessisarily."

Yes, and while I can't say for sure why God did that, here is what I think. Please take this with a grain of salt, because this isn't word-for-word in the bible. Love is a choice (that much is in the bible), so we know that God can't force us to love Him. If He did, it wouldn't be real love. So, in order to love Him, we have to choose Him. In order to choose Him, there has to be another choice. That's my theory about why Lucifer existed, so we had another choice besides God and therefor could love Him. But again, please take that with a grain of salt.

"Allow a horrific demension of existance known as hell to emerge. Allow that demension to continue existing. Do not prevent such a thing."

God kicked Lucifer out of Heaven because Heaven is only for God's perfect beings. Nowhere else existed yet, so He had to make a place for Lucifer to go. Whether it was God or Lucifer who made that place terrible and evil, I don't know...but either way, that's what happened.

"Create unchanging morals and base them upon whatever your nature happens to be. And then, lable any actions contrary to these 'sin."

He left out a huge detail! First of all, these rules weren't there in the beginning. The only rule in the beginning was to not eat from the one tree (and again, I think that was so they could choose to love Him). After they broke that rule and were spiritually dead and turned away from God, He made those other rules to follow to show how far away from Him they had turned, so they knew that they needed to be saved. The bible says that the purpose of the commandments is not so that people will follow them perfectly, but so people can see their imperfections and see how short they fall from the law...so they will know that they need to be saved. But anyways, yes, breaking the commandments is sin. Even most athiests agree that there are things that are right and wrong (murder, rape, etc.), and the only difference from that, is that it's God telling us what's right and wrong instead of telling ourselves...since God is all-knowing and we aren't.

"Be sure to include things such as encouragment to beat your children with a rod, buy slaves, not letting women teach or have authority over men, and of course to kill anyone who expresses interest in worshipping other Gods."

The "beating children with a rod" one doesn't mean severely beating them to death (in fact, it says in the next verse "if you beat them, they will not die")...this is simply talking about spanking. A "rod" doesn't have to be as horrible as it sounds; it may just be a stick. The one about slaves doesn't apply any more because of the context. It was telling those specific people that they may take slaves from one specific land (neither of which exist any more). In the Old Testament, a lot of crazy things were allowed in order to avenge sin, but in the New Testament, Jesus avenged our sins for us instead. And yes, I am aware that there are verses in the New Testament that said for slaves to obey their masters. However, God also says to obey your country's laws, and our countries don't allow slavery any more...so it isn't okay to have slaves today reguardless. The one about women not teaching over men is only in church- it's saying for her to not be the head of a church. It has to be read in context. And the one about killing people of other religions was also just a way to avenge sin, so it no longer applies.

"Design a physical universe with the appearance of age. Be sure to include in your creation biological flaws and over-complications."

He didn't create things with flaws and complications. It was when the curse was put on the Earth later that it aged rapidly and such.

"Create a garden with a tree in it bearing fruit that when eaten, provides knowledge of your objective moral standards. Then, create two beings without knowledge or awareness of these standards, and instruct them not to eat from the tree which would enlighten them. Make is so that only after eating from the tree would they realize that doing so was violating your standards."

I already explained why I think the tree and temptation was there. And when they were sinless, they had no need to know about what was right and wrong, because they had no "wrong" in them or around them. They did, however, know that eating from the tree would cause them to die and be separated from God. They may not have known that it was "evil", but they still knew what would happen and did it anyways.

"Warn these being that they will die if they eat from this tree...but don't follow through with it."

He absolutely did follow through with it. If they had no sin, they would have lived forever on a perfect Earth that never fades away. But because sin entered the world, they died. Their souls died instantly, and their bodies died a few hundred years later.

"Make sure that your beings have been equipped for reproducing themselves and multiplying. Because they have sinned, have all of their decendants be born with a sinful nature, defaulting in a future of everlasting torment. Do not, by any means, allow each of them to be born with a clean slate and the ability to live a sin-free life if they desire, as you did with the first two."

Sin contaminated everything under Heaven. Two contaminated things don't come together to produce a perfect thing; it just doesn't happen that way. Plus, even though humans were born with a sinful nature, they don't have to go to the place of evil and torment. If they choose God, He will still save them and they can go to Heaven instead. Plus, this last part is just my theory, but I think we all would have chosen sin anyways.

"Give these beings a soul, which keeps their thoughts and feelings in existance forever one way or another. Then, allow the sinfulness of these being to be incompatible with your presence, and let hell be the only other place they can go once they exit the physical world. Do not make any attempt to spare these souls the torment of hell such as allowing souls to stop existing all together or creating an additional relm for them besides with you or in hell."

First of all, souls don't keep our thoughts and feelings in existance forever. Our souls will exist forever, but our thoughts and feelings don't come with us when we leave Earth as far as I know. And I have to admit, I got kind of mad at the fact that he said that God didn't make any attempt to spare our souls. HE CAME AND DIED FOR US AND GAVE HIS LIFE! I don't know what more you want! All we have to do is accept that gift! And then he said that God should have made souls stop existing or made another place for them to go besides Heaven or hell. The bible says that God loves souls before they are even in their mother's womb, so He didn't want them to not exist. And He DID make another place for them to go (Abraham's Bosom)....but that place was only temporary until He came and died to take our sins and take us to Heaven. Sin has to be punished though, so we either have to accept the punishment that Jesus took for us, or we have to be punished by going to hell.

"Over time, allow these beings to populate the Earth you have created, knowing that after so many generations, they will dissapoint you enough that you will find it necissary to kill all of them in a global flood and start over."

Yes, the wages of sin is death, so God avenged sin with death. However, that's the old testament, and now Jesus' death avenges sin for us once and for all if we will just receive Him.

"When this happens, make an acception for one small family whom you deem righteous. Of course, it goes without saying that your powers allow you to know that this family will also disappoint you in the same way...but for now, it's best that you pretend not to know that."

Noah and his family had original sin too, but their actions were righteous at the time, which is why God chose them. God may know the future, but He doesn't judge you based on the future. He chose one family to stay alive because He knew about all of the souls to come in the future (including us!) and wanted that to still happen, so He needed some people to keep things going.

"Declare that until further notice, the only way for these beings to justify their sinful nature while on Earth, is to perform ritual animal sacrifices and other acts of violence. When sins are commited by any one of these beings, demand that the surrounding community kill that being."

Like I already said, the wages of sin is death. In the old testament that was the death of the sinner or of animals...but now, it's just the death of Jesus.

"Perform many epic miracles. But, before anyone can figure them out, stop doing them all together."

He didn't and still hasn't stopped doing them "all together".

"Realize that your moral standards are not as obvious to these beings as you once thought. Chizzle your top ten concerns onto two tablets of stone, and commision one of these beings to deliver these to the rest."

God never claimed that His standards were obvious. The bible even says that He made the commandments and the Law of Moses because He knew that they weren't otherwise obvious and He wanted us to know how we had messed up and needed to be saved.

"After several thousand years, impregnate one of these beings so that she gives birth to Your Son in physical form...who also happens to be You at the same time."

Jesus was not also the Father at the same time. The trinity is made up of three parts- the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...Jesus (the Son) is part of the trinity, so He is part of God..but He isn't also the Father.

"Do not make Jesus' sacrifice free. Establish that these beings will not be eligable for this sacrifice unless they actually believe that it happened. In other words, despite the quality of their intentions, any being who finds themselves unconvinced that these events actally took place is still going to hell."

Jesus' sacrifice is absolutely free. I've said this a million times, but it's like a gift. If someone buys us a gift and we have to take it out of their hands and open it in order to get it, does that mean it's no longer free? No, we still don't have to pay for it! Not only that, but it isn't by our own strength that we have faith to believe- God gives that to us too.

"Be sure to refrain from making it clear and knowable to the rest of the world that these events actually took place. Insure that no being born after the first century has the luxury of witnessing Your Son say or do anything to indicate that He was living. Again, make sure that all of this occurs before the advancments in science and technology are available to verify it for those who aren't present."

The whole world has had the oppertunity to hear the gospel actually. The bible says that every nation will hear the gospel before the end of the world. And Jesus did plenty to make people know that He was living. He brought forth witnesses, the Holy Spirit, and there even is some evidence (evidence, not proof). But again, if He would just come down from the sky and show Himself, we wouldn't have faith, so we wouldn't be saved anyways.

"Arrange so the only surviving records of these events are written anonimously by non-eye witnesses, translated into a language different than the one You said Your Son spoke- written no earlier than 30 years after they happened."

This couldn't be more wrong. Very few of the records were anonymous, and very few were written by non-eye-witnesses. The records were written in the languages that the authors spoke, and were translated into the languages of the people who needed to hear them. Plus, they were written around 30 years later because that's when there were people who needed to read them.

"Be sure that after only a few decades, the only accounts of these events in existance are copies of copies of copies, which will be altered and added to from generation to generation. Do not preserve and protect the original copies of these accounts."

This is just flat out wrong. Most of the original scrolls are still in existance and many bible translations (including the one that I read) are translated straight from those.

"Do not make it clear that you are even here. Allow for your existance to remain easily debatable."

He gives us the faith that we need, but most people refuse it.

Yorehl

I'd just like to add something real quick. it kind of angers me when Christians say that Jesus' death is a gift and we just need to receive it, as if everyone who doesnt is completely stupid for not. if i person comes up and gives you a gift, and you just need to take it, thats one thing. but if a person come up and claims to be handing you a gift that you only need to take, but he is empty handed, thats something else entirely. No offense intended.

girlfromsocal

I don't get why though he wouldn't bring his son/him down to see you s every now and then if he so badly wants us to believe. I don't think it's GOD's concern we believe or not but ours. Because if we don't we'd only pay the price. HE would go on and that's why HIS main focus isn't on making us believe. However with christians they tend to believe he wants us to believe. Like he'd need us. When we need him in all honesty... It's odd their god wouldn't try harder to know he existed if he did.

Tegan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorehl

I'd just like to add something real quick. it kind of angers me when Christians say that Jesus' death is a gift and we just need to receive it, as if everyone who doesnt is completely stupid for not. if i person comes up and gives you a gift, and you just need to take it, thats one thing. but if a person come up and claims to be handing you a gift that you only need to take, but he is empty handed, thats something else entirely. No offense intended.

I get where you're coming from with this, but I think a part of the issue is the word "gift" to me it implies that Jesus' sacrifice is equal to the awful pair of socks my aunt gave me for Christmas

Personally I would say that Jesus' death is an example of what God would be willing to sacrifice for us. Really its an example to Christians (there are equal examples in most major world religions of what God (or equivalent) does/will do for life on Earth) of the reasons that we should be moral and follow God's word.
This isn't a personal attack on your comment - I'm just trying to point out the point of view of a different denomination of Christianity

girlfromsocal

but why would he sacrifice for us? What did we do for him?

Megan1

Quote:

Originally Posted by girlfromsocal

but why would he sacrifice for us? What did we do for him?

Nothing, that's why it's so amazing! He loves us that much, and all we have to do in return is believe that He did it and turn to Him once and for all!

girlfromsocal

yea so I don't get why HE'd sacrifice for us. Not that I have any power to judge that. But it's doesn't make sense that we'd sacrifice for us. Idk...

Revolution

That's why it's either so amazing or makes absolutely no sense, depending on how you look at it.

~Mr. Self Destruct~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorehl

Loved it! Now I just wish he'd do the same thing for Judaism, Islam, Wicca, and Atheism and prove that all religious debates are futile and that we should just accept each others beliefs.

Atheism isn't a religion.

girlfromsocal

well I guess that's the difference between faiths and all is that why he'd demand people to believe in him? Because he's sacrificed so much? He wants to be recognized for that? That would make sense I guess. If oonly the jesus story made sense. Ahh now I have a question.

Toz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megan1