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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:25 AM

This was a thread I had put up on TH before the site went down. I got some good responses so I'm starting it again.

Simple question: Is it better to rule by love or to rule by fear?

On the one hand, if people love you they'll willingly do things for you. At the same time, however, fear is a powerful motivator and will also get things done.

Thoughts?
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:27 AM

Fear.

All the greatest leaders have used fear, if not fear of themselves but fear of a sitation and used fear to get people rallied behind said leader. Fear motivates more people than love.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:29 AM

Ah, but does it necessarily?

For isn't it for love of one's country, and not necessarily fear of what will happen to her, that one chooses to willingly fight for it?

In that case, love (in a very broad sense) rules.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:34 AM

I don't beleive it is the love of the country. I beleive it is fear that our loved ones could be hurt and that it was enspires people to fight. To keep there order in the world because without the rules that they are used to they would be lost. Which is fear driven and fear enspired.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 06:48 PM

I think it depends what you're afraid of. Is it better that people fear their rulers? I don't think so. But I think every government at one point has used some aspect of fear to motivate their citizens.


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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by icedoverfire View Post
Ah, but does it necessarily?

For isn't it for love of one's country, and not necessarily fear of what will happen to her, that one chooses to willingly fight for it?

In that case, love (in a very broad sense) rules.
Or fear of what will happen if your country is overrun. In WWI East Prussians were terrified of what would happen if the Barbaric Slavs (ie Russians) came onto their land [a fear proved legitimate in 1944/1945]

Fear worked for Hitler, for Stalin, for Chairman Mao, for Bush Jr, for Saddam (and so on)

Ruling by love would be a much better ideal state but it just doesn't work
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 06:55 PM

My two cents:

Fear is a great motivator, but love won't lead to rebellion.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 06:57 PM

Fear can keep a rebellion down too. Fear of what a neighbour would do in order to get better conditions for themselves. Fear of getting crushed before a coup d'etat
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:04 PM

Sure, but if you mess with enough people for long enough, you're asking for revolt. People will just plain get tired of fear and maybe even decide that dying in a rebellion is better than living a life ruled by fear.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:08 PM

Rule by love.

However you need the fear because without it you simply become open to all threats. Yet if you rule by love, your country will support you more than if you ruled solely with fear.
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:09 PM

Love and Fear?

Kind of basic, huh?

There is a lot more to it.

Delete those two words from human knowledge and control the way people think. That is how to rule.


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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:10 PM

Ruling by love is impossible. You simply cannot please everyone all of the time
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:15 PM

Ruling by love is not simply ruling with the aim to please everyone. That is impossible.

Ruling by love still means tough decisions, and a willingness to make the best decisions for the majority. People will hate the government. However by aiming to improve the lives of people than immediately setting out to control people.
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Bethie View Post
Ruling by love is not simply ruling with the aim to please everyone. That is impossible.

Ruling by love still means tough decisions, and a willingness to make the best decisions for the majority. People will hate the government. However by aiming to improve the lives of people than immediately setting out to control people.
If they hate you then surely they can't love you. Doing what is best for a country is not ruling by love
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:37 PM

Doing what is best for the country is ruling by love if decisions are made to improve the lives of others based on a concious decision to do the best for the majority of people. By doing the best for a country and the people within it, is ruling by love.

And people will always hate the government if they rule with fear or love. The difference is how many people hate the government.
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:41 PM

Fear will always be used..
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 07:57 PM

People fear what they love and love what they fear. It is not an issue of this or that. Fear and love depend upon and exist within each other.



   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 08:02 PM

Love.

Love conquers all and love is the humble way to go. I don't fear many people because of my faith. Also, I don't respect anyone that rules by fear.

However Bethie makes a good point:

Quote:
And people will always hate the government if they rule with fear or love. The difference is how many people hate the government.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 08:16 PM

I believe that Love, as in dedication, is better to rule by.


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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 08:34 PM

The perfect way to control? Attack your own people and convince them only you can protect them.


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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 11th 2009, 09:04 PM

Better in what sense?

I think it's morally better to rule by love, but it's probably more effective to rule by fear. Humans tend to be on the selfish side, so unless something is directly beneficial to them they are not likely to feel compelled to stand behind it.


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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 12th 2009, 07:04 AM

You question is too vague.

Do you mean is it better for the ruler to do it, for their own sake, or better for the society at large?

If it's the first, then being a hateful hypocrite will probably mean you live more comfortably, and with supreme power, until a rebellion begins at least.

But in terms of whats better for the society, you first need to outline the role of the Government. In a good society, people should have equal rights, and freedom as much as they are allowed without chaos occuring. You shouldn't have to live in fear of death, just because you disagree with a government, or an ideal, or whatever. You shouldn't have to live in fear because of something you are (e.g. a certain race, rleigion, creed, or orientation). Scholars should be allowed to investigate things (assuming they are following ethical guidelines), even if they are against the main beliefs of a nation (for example, in a creationalist state, they should be allowed to investigate evolution if they want). If you don't have a fair amount of freedom, a society is static, the quality of life is limit, and you bring nothing to the world. So arguably, a state ruled by fear hasn't got a very positive outcome, so it's not 'better' then a state not ruled by fear.

Of course this doesnt mean everything outside of fear will be better, but fear in and of itself does not create the best societies.

And what do you mean by love? Love as in the government is a push over, that enforces no rules, and just forgives all trangressions? Or love as in a fair, merciful government, that want the best not only for themselves and their beliefs, but all the people in their country (not just the majority.... otherwise minority groups are being treated as lesser people).

BTW, having harsh, very strict, dictator-like leaders causes less effectiveness. So even if you think it appears fear causes more things to happen, people are not working to ther best of their abilities. On the flip side, leaving people to do whatever they want, whenever is also counterproductive. You need a leader who will guide people, but also include them. One extreme or another is rarely the way to go about things.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 12th 2009, 07:24 AM

Depends on what you have to do in order for them to love you/fear you.


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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 12th 2009, 08:34 AM

@ Invert: The question's intentionally vague as to encourage discussion!
I agree with a lot of your points.

In the interest of further discussion, here's an example: The idealized parent-child relationship. Ideally, the child should love the parent but at the same time, ideally, the child fears what the parent will do if the child does wrong.... But the two "system of rule" (for lack of a better term) still coexist.

And why is it, so often, that after we make someone afraid (I'm referring to a child, in this case), we immediately comfort them with the word "love" in some form?

Case in point: A parent yells at their child. The child becomes afraid (fear rule) and runs off and hides, crying. The parent, seeking to make amends expresses the fact that he/she loves the child? (love rule)
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 12th 2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adean View Post
The perfect way to control? Attack your own people and convince them only you can protect them.
"What luck for rulers that men dont think."- Adolf Hitler



   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 12th 2009, 12:43 PM

Love will always be a better way to control people.

But simply in practice fear is better.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 12th 2009, 12:55 PM

Neither. The most effective way to rule isn't through love or fear, but through acceptance. When government becomes omnipresent and routine, as it is in every Western country (and probably every other country except Somalia), so that people can no longer conceive of a life without it, the government wins.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 12th 2009, 01:35 PM

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Neither. The most effective way to rule isn't through love or fear, but through acceptance. When government becomes omnipresent and routine, as it is in every Western country (and probably every other country except Somalia), so that people can no longer conceive of a life without it, the government wins.
You went from acceptance to omnipresence & reliance. Those are different things.


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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 12th 2009, 01:39 PM

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You went from acceptance to omnipresence & reliance. Those are different things.
True. Point is that people will inevitably come to accept an omnipresent, routine government. They're different things, but one leads to the other.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 12th 2009, 02:18 PM

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True. Point is that people will inevitably come to accept an omnipresent, routine government. They're different things, but one leads to the other.
I liked the reliance idea better.

Achieving omnipresence is kind of... hard...


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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 13th 2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by icedoverfire View Post
This was a thread I had put up on TH before the site went down. I got some good responses so I'm starting it again.

Simple question: Is it better to rule by love or to rule by fear?

On the one hand, if people love you they'll willingly do things for you. At the same time, however, fear is a powerful motivator and will also get things done.

Thoughts?
i think it's importatnt to rule by a lil bit of both. i think it's better actually to have your poeple love you more, but you still need an element of fear...fear in the sense of revrance and respect. Love tends to place people on equal status and when it comes to leadership you need to have that element of fear to set the social status and what not.

You want ur followers to love you because they will want to do what you tell them, but you want them to fear you because you want them to for sure do what you tell them, even when they don't exactly feel they want to. or if they don't like you.


I'd rather just be your friend than your lover and then your regret.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 13th 2009, 03:46 PM

I think it depends on the people you're trying to rule. I mean you'd want your employees to do what you say because they're afraid of being fired by you but you wouldn't want your boyfriend/girlfriend to do things because they're afraid of you, you'd want them to do things because they love you.


   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 13th 2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.K. View Post
I liked the reliance idea better.

Achieving omnipresence is kind of... hard...
OK, not literal omnipresence, but some presence in all aspects of life.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 13th 2009, 09:47 PM

Both. I can't think of an example right now, but those people that everyone(well, almost) loves and respects, but also fears would probably work best.

In the end, there's no definite way. All it takes is one person to rebel.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 13th 2009, 11:21 PM

Ruling by fear > Ruling by love.

Ruling by love means you have to get all the people to love you, and not everyone will like the same thing, meaning there's going to be a group that's not going to like you no matter what. This can lead to a revolt and slowly spread like a plague.

Fear on the other hand works for most people. Dominate, crush them, show brutal torture/killings, or simply invasions of other countries and people will tend to listen. Love you can revolt against, but fear is harder because if you do, you know what's going to happen to you. There may be a few people with a backbone capable of standing up against the fear but the majority are going to be cowering.

However, even with fear comes love that you didn't intend. For example, Adolf Hitler used fear yet he still had plenty of women professing their love to him in letters.

You could also take for example certain serial killers. They don't all intend to govern an area, however, their killings tend to invoke fear and the citizens tend to be more cautious or not leave the homes. Fear works even if the person/people aren't known, so imagine if they are known and they're right in your face. Either you have a backbone to retaliate and get killed, or you cower in fear and obey.

You could also run a relationship similar to this. You can get the whole love thing but then have it to be fear of losing you by being the greatest thing that ever happened to that person, or fear of if they leave you, their life is going to take a road straight to hell. Fear works much better than love.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 14th 2009, 02:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
OK, not literal omnipresence, but some presence in all aspects of life.
Not necessarily. The gov can take control of just one very important commodity, like lets say water, bad & shoot of all competition so people wouldn't have anyone else to turn to for vitally needed resources.


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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 15th 2009, 06:09 AM

HAY GUISE I HAVE AN IDEA - let's simplify all of the complicated ways in which a war can be motivated down to 'love' and 'fear'! And then get strangers on the internet to argue about it! LOLOLOL.

In all seriousness, what the hell? Using either of those two is a retarded way to run a country/ business/ relationship/ whatever. One just invites paranoia, the other blindness to new ideas.
   
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Re: Rule by love or rule by fear? - January 15th 2009, 08:13 AM

I still dont get why everything thinks ruling by fear is most productive? When studies show that dictator like leaders cause less productiveness.
   
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