[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Annoni

"God is god, therefore he gets a free ride"? No, I don't buy that. I acknowledge that I have a good life, yes. I also acknowledge that millions of people do not have good lives, that billions throughout history have not, and if Christianity is to be believed, that many of them continue to suffer now in hell, even those now born many hundreds of years ago. I am aware of plenty of good reasons for earthly suffering, and I don't deny their validity, but eternal suffering is another matter.

Wanna hear a brutal truth according to the bible? All things are for His glory. It's true. But we cannot fathom how evil can be for His glory, so honestly the best way may just be to forget about it but that doesn't seem like an option, since each of you asks for definite proof if there is a God.
Also, onion has pointed out a few verses which support the people who have not heard of Jesus. There is still hope for them too, if their life was horrible here they still have a chance at a life in Heaven.
If you get to eternal suffering, that means you have not only had a chance to be saved like the bible says, it means you cast it aside and continued an unsaved life of sin with no repentance willingly, voiding your rights to Heaven as a gift.
It's so bloody simple I don't know people make such a fuss. There is freedom, there is forgiveness! Yet we argue. Yet we turn our faces from God and curse His name.

If you want to understand why people make such a fuss, here's the best explanation I can give, at least regarding my beliefs. I see accepting god as the easy road, in the same way that Christianity preaches that giving in to sin is the easy road. It's easier to put blind faith in god than it is to question whether god is actually just and loving.

I believe that if god really does exist after all, I'll want a lot of answers before I will happily accept him as god. Yes, there is heaven and forgiveness, but for me the price would be compromising my own beliefs and my freedom, and that's not something I'm willing to do. If god exists and I get my answers, and judge to the best of my ability that god is indeed good, then I'll accept him.

In the mean time, I'm living my life to its fullest and doing my best to be a good person and a positive influence in the world. If that's not good enough for god, then bluntly, god's not good enough for me. If that means I burn in eternal damnation, at least I'll burn with a clean conscience. That is truer freedom to me than any gilded cage.

Originally Posted by Annoni

I'm portraying god that way because that is how I see him; or at least the Christian interpretation we're debating. There is a phrase that states that "we are guilty of all the good we could have done but did not do." Just because god is not the direct cause of eternal suffering doesn't mean he is not still guilty of allowing it to exist. God created Lucifer, for one. He wrote the rules, for another.

Well if you see God as having qualities of evil and Satan, the only thing I can say is that is not what God is, and I pray you see that.
onion explained the Lucifer thing, I think.
And yes, God allows sin to exist, because He wants us to have a choice.

I actually see god as not existing at all. As I've said, for me this is all hypothetical debate, mostly for my own enjoyment. It's a fun exercise to consider and articulate my beliefs, and to respond to those of others.

Originally Posted by Annoni

If he is actually powerless to prevent this; if he cannot destroy or overpower Satan, if he cannot choose to forgive everyone of their sins, not just the repentant, if he truly cannot exist with sin, then perhaps he could reveal himself to the world so that people can know he exists and be warned that he is incapable of protecting us. There are many ways god could prevent eternal suffering. Unless he is totally powerless, he is choosing to allow this cycle to continue, and he is thus guilty of it. If he is that powerless, I think it would be better that humanity try to fend for itself in the afterlife than continue to rely on such a meager god.

He can do that, but for what I've said above plus reasons out minds cannot fathom, for the greater good that we cannot see, God allowed sin to still exist. God can forgive everyone of their sins, but people need to ask, they need to acknowledge God, otherwise, if they don't believe God in the first place, what's the need of being forgiven? But as there is a God, each of you should turn your hearts to God and ask for the easy forgiveness and live in that forgiveness, and spread the news of this saving grace to others so they may know the gift of Heaven which is not all that hard to have.

It's not "sin" I'm arguing against; it's the punishment for sin. Personally, I think some of god's sins at least make the world a heck of a lot more fun, and I'll certainly agree that without any sin at all the world would be dead boring. It's hell and eternal suffering that I'm arguing against, because that has no conceivable purpose other than punishment. Again, if god can explain to me why it is actually good for so many billions of souls to be so tortured, I'll cease complaining. Personally, I doubt he'd be able to find an explanation I'd find satisfactory.

Originally Posted by Annoni

It all stems from a single question: does goes exist? Yes or no. If you believe no, as I do, this entire debate is nothing more than hypothesizing. If you do believe, then complications of faith ensue, but for those who believe god doesn't exist, the matter is entirely simple. And no matter how much good they do in the world, god will condemn them to hell for their lack of belief, and from that a lack of repentance.

I'm assuming that was a typo and you meant does God exist? Just making sure so people can understand without uncertainty.

Yes, typo corrected, thank you.

Originally Posted by Annoni

And speaking of which, why is sin so detestable to god? I'm only human, and I'm capable of forgiving someone even if they don't apologize for hurting me. Surely god is capable of at least that. God seems to be of assuming a stance of "well, if you don't want to apologize that's too damn bad for you, you can burn in hell." No person who spoke those words, or anything like them, would be considered enlightened. Why is god allowed this without question?

Ah, thank you, easier question.
Sin is not tolerable to God, because He is holy, He is blameless, He is perfect.
Sin is tolerable to you because you live in it, are not as holy, blameless, or perfect as He is. Sort of like a climate thing, if you can relate to that.

If god is perfect, shouldn't that come with perfect tolerance? Why exactly can god not tolerate sin? Is he allergic to it? Is it to his eyes what an unbearably bright light would be to ours? Are sin and god like matter and antimatter? Just because I'm 100% blond doesn't mean I can't stand to be around brunettes or redheads. Just because I'm 100% British doesn't mean I can't tolerate Americans or Scotsmen. If god is perfect and free of sin - and I question even this - why is it that he cannot tolerate sin?

Originally Posted by Annoni

For that matter, why are we required to repent in the first place? I'm aware of having hurt people in my life, both directly and indirectly. I avoid it as much as I can, and I apologize and regret when I do cause harm. But I've caused no harm to god, except perhaps his pride. And if it's that easily wounded, he could stand to have it taken down a peg or two. But repenting simply because I'm not perfect? Hell no. If god had wanted us to be perfect, or perfect sheep, he should have made us that way. I feel no need to apologize for who I am, to anyone. Nor should any other person feel the need to.

In repentance you are also acknowledging God's existence and Jesus's life that was on this earth and the price he paid in blood for your sins, and everyone else's. Being simply aware of bad things you've done or being sorry for them is not acknowledging or embracing any of that.
And God DID make us perfect! Oh yes He did. But Satan introduced sin to humanity, and here we are in our wonderful little cesspool.

I didn't ask god to let his son die two thousand years before I was born, I'm certainly not about to thank him for it. It doesn't make a spot of difference to me whether I'm "tainted with sin", since it seems that it's god that cannot stand it. As I've said before, if he cannot accept me as I am, I see that as his failing, not mine. And in that case, thank goodness for Satan. I have no more desire to be perfect than I have desire to seek god's forgiveness for my imperfections. Acceptance I would take, but forgiveness is patronizing and condescending.