Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Abortion is wrong, yes. But have you thought about the many women and girls who have had no other choice? Who've been forced into it. Whether they are forced by the father or their parents?

Yes, I chose to have sex, but that doesn't mean that I was afraid of the consequences. I was happy when I found out I was pregnant. I was excited. My fiance was a different story. He was angry. He told me that either I got an abortion or I would be kicked out onto the streets. I was 17, still in school, and 13 hours away from any family that I have. On top of that, he told me that he would sue me if I tried to give "his baby" up for adoption. I did not know about the options I know about now.

I do not deny that after that first second of when sperm and egg meet is life.

I had no other choice.

I was not afraid of what my classmates would think. I was happy. I didn't care about the pain of birth. It is something that almost every woman goes through at some point or another.

All I knew was that I had a life inside me that was a piece of both me and my fiance and that we had created it. I honestly thought that he was going to feel the same way.

I did what was best for my baby. I chose to send my baby up to heaven rather than have him born into a house that was emotionally, and eventually physically abusive. I would not put my child, my son, my baby, my angel into that situation.

You're right, there is such thing as adoption. I knew that I was not ready to have a child. I knew that I didn't have the means to take care of my baby, and I did not want to abort him. But... As I said above, I was 17, still in school, 13 hours from any family, being threatened with being sued if I ever tried to give "his baby" up for adoption.

You're damn right it is accusatory. Sometimes, there are times where you need to shut your mouth and not say anything.

You do not know the story behind why the girl in the P&C section had an abortion.

You know my story now. Perhaps, next time you want a debate you shouldn't be so accusatory, hurtful, and do some more research.

I do regret it. It's not my fault though. I made the best choice I could at the time with the information I had.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I'm so. so sorry for your loss and I don't think anyone would blame you for your situation.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I don't think anyone can blame you for what happened. Actually I'm really sympathetic towards you because your boyfriend sounds like the exact kind of jerk that I don't want to be anything like. You didn't choose abortion, he forced you into it, which was wrong.

I could actually be, from the sounds of it, one of the few guys who can get sickened by things like that and one night stands. My father ran out on my mother, providing no way for her to be able to care for me - thus, she had to give me away. I won't lie, I hate the bastard. Everyday I have to know what he did and I've vowed to be nothing like him.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

We already talked about rape yesterday, and it was already said that extreme cases were beyond understandable. So, it's kinda mute point by now...

Even though I'm still wondering if for some women it would bring more pain later in their life for having done it than giving it up for adoption, could be for some while not others. But, still don't exactly know which would have the easier psychological long term effect. Such as if prior to she didn't believe in abortion, then got an abortion due to what happened - how would she feel a year down the line? Due to that, don't know whether or not it could be the best outcome for the victim because it might add to the pain of what happened.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Eh. So after reading 5 pages of this junk, I'll put my two cents in.

I, personally, relate a freshly fertilised egg to a quickly growing cancer, on the relation that it could definitely ruin my life. This is because I'm 20 years old and fuck if I'm going to wait and let that bundle of cells actually develop into a human being that I have to give up my life for. I don't want a baby right now. I can't care for a baby right now. And fuck, I don't feel like dealing with the family and their mixed reactions. Don't come at me with "then don't have sex!" Because I will jump through the screen, find out where you live, and smack you.

The idea that people just DON'T HAVE SEX is ridiculous. Religious dicks out there are trying to stop people from doing what they are BIOLOGICALLY PROGRAMMED TO DO. But, being blessed with the ability to think, we can have sex and avoid having babies as a result. Actually, there was a thread in Religion+Philos (for the sake of the religious folk in here) where someone said that God didn't make it possible for women to get pregnant every day of her life, so sex is obviously not just about offspring. It's about a close, humanly connection to another person.

And, for the sake of argument, let's say your (anyone) daughter gets pregnant. Rape or whatever. Your choice. She DOES NOT WANT THIS BABY. But because you're the parent, and you are overtly against abortion, you refuse it. Adoption might be one thing, or keeping the baby. Your daughter will more than likely resent you for making her go through 9 months of psychological torture for keeping a growing thing inside of her, or if she was raped, holy shit. Fuck that noise. I would be out of there and in a clinic in no time.

So in short, I don't think that having an abortion is wrong. It makes no matter to me WHY you do it, because that's between you and the doctor and perhaps God, depending on your beliefs.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Its already been agreed that rape is an acceptable reason to have an abortion.

9 months of psychological torture? Huh? In normal cases of pregnancy (even unwanted pregnancy) although there is stigma, its not that bad! 9 months is worth giving someone the gift of life. Give the baby up for adoption if you don't want to keep it.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I know it causes a lot of problems. What I am saying is that no matter how bad it is, unless the woman's life is at risk (which would be considered torture), it is not bad enough to justify not giving someone the chance for a full life.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Here, let me try something else.

It has been argued by some (I've been here since the original post, so I've read too many posts to remember which person said it) that a woman shouldn't have to go through 9 months of pain for a baby she doesn't even want in the first place, especially if she took the necessary precautions not to get pregnant to begin with.

Given the opportunity, would you risk your life for a stranger or someone you don't necessarily care for, to give them the chance to survive?

If the answer is yes, then why would you not deal with 9 months of pain and discomfort and possibly stigma to give someone the chance at a full life?

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I just re-read my post (Was in a terrible mood when i read it) and realised how i didn't make the sence of what i wanted it to.
I mean theres a possibility of mental and physical effects. You can't treat abortion so vaguely "Abortion is wrong." i think it depends on the situation.
Mental -- If the woman who falls pregnant is emotionally unstable and/or is going to be a terrible mother and be unable to look after the baby - giving it the love and support it needs then of course that woman should not be having this baby. It could cause so much stress and lead to depression,etc. And yes of course theres the adoption idea, but you dont seem to recognise the struggle taht would be for the mother after carrying this baby for 9 months and then giving it up, not to mention the strain on the baby as it grows up with all these questions and self doubt (not meaning to generalise as im sure its completely different for each and every case, but just thinking of the possibilities)
Physical -- Young mothers in particular or older women who happen to fall pregnant just arnt always physically capable of having a baby due to high complications etc.

I just think that you shouldn't treat the cases so black and white. I know that what ive said isn't a particuarly strong arguement but i just want to open narrow minds to the shades of grey.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

no i absolutely wouldn't risk my life for a stranger or someone i didn't care about. sometimes you've gotta look out for number one, eh?

the answer is no.. so i guess the second part isn't really relevent.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I've already agreed that if its a matter of medical complications creating risk to the mother, or rape, I agree with terminating the pregnancy. So yes, I was aware of these grey areas.

Oh, okay. Guess that one fell flat... I thought the answers would pretty much all be yes on that question.:hmm: Sorry about that.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

As an adoptee, no it's not that much of a strain - not in the least - and I'm sure other adoptees can account for this as well. This is the problem of interaction between nonadoptees and adoptees - the two armed guy can never understand the one armed guy. They may try to, but they'll never be able to. Go around asking adoptees if they're happy to be alive - you'll find a resounding yes, even in the worst of cases. Nonadoptees - as I've found - have a really low view on us, which I can't exactly understand but have seen time and time again, so it is kinda like being in a minority group with prejudices which would probably make a nonadoptee only think of strain.

Everyone goes through something, everyone has something that follows them in life, adoptees are no different than others we just face different problems along the way. It's not so easy being the mythic hero - but, hey we're more mythic than nonadoptees could ever hope to achieve, so that's cool also. Being a guy looking around - every one wants to be a hero, but adoptees have been thrust into the basic archetypal story of the hero - just look to any hero story... once that's achieved, it kinda feels like being double the person.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I've gotta go with Josh on this one. As an adoptee, we have to face problems and emotional pitfalls that others may not have to, but then again, there are problems we might not have that others do. Life has ups and downs for everybody. And I am happy to have the chance to live it.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

[quote=Oiseau the Little Bird!;158546] The idea that people just DON'T HAVE SEX is ridiculous. Religious dicks out there are trying to stop people from doing what they are BIOLOGICALLY PROGRAMMED TO DO. [/qoute]

I have yet to figure out why I like this statement so much. LOL

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Likewise -- The non-pregnant male can NEVER understand the pregnant female. They may try to, but they'll never be able to.


And i think previous posters have already pointed out - you would never have known if you were aborted or not, you do not have an opinion at that stage as you are not developed enough.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

He was my fiance... It wasn't something that I thought he wouldn't want. I mean... We were supposed to be marrying eachother and all. He knew that I wanted a family. He never said much in way of opposition to that...

I'm just glad that I didn't have to bring a child into the situation that I was in. On top of the fact that I would have an eternal connection to him for the rest of my baby's life.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

just because you don't think it's much of a strain, that doesn't make it fact for everyone. not all adoptees will feel the same way as you, in fact i'd argue that i lot probably feel very differently. just because nonadoptees haven't been adopted - it doesn't mean they can't have an opinion on abortion which is just as valid. abortion and adoption are two very different things.

i don't really see how this has anything to do with the debate topic.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Likewise, father's shouldn't be seen as Vulcans - which as a guy is really disturbing.

Elle, I can reply to whatever I want to reply to. If a nonadoptee tries to state they know perfectly well how adoptees feel, I can point them out as being hypocrites. The two armed guy can't understand the one armed guy and never can. Plus, as an adoptee who's known A LOT of adoptees - no, we're not these damaged goods and numbers people want to see us as... which is frankly agravating, I mean even in TV... Prison Break for example, the initial reaction from nonadoptees was "oh no, they're not brothers anymore!" HUH???? I've seen that time and time again and in comments on here to know how assine some people can be that aren't able to grasp that family is more than blood.

I've live life enough to know that nonadoptees have a very narrow viewpoint of us - this thread has done more than solidify that - they only see the negatives, for some reason only adoptees are able to see the positives. I can also live with the fact that we're the MYTHIC HEROES that every single legend on earth is based around. Ask any guy if they want to be like one of the mythic heroes, they'd say "hell yeah, that'd be cool," well - in a way - that's my life... it would be cool if they'd just apply that same logic to adoptees & orphans as they do the heroes they admire. Because, the same hardships, questions, success - well, that's our life. We live the mythic hero life so many others can only dream of. We're your Kryptonians. I'd reckon to say it's an adventure and like all adventures - there's up and downs - but in the end, the hero always wins. I know I'm where I am - best friends with an academy award winner's son & interning at a TOP film studio this summer - because of the strength I got from the adventure my life has been.

Here's a better way to view it... rather than seeing babies who have been cast out in trying to understand us, see Superman, Luke Skywalker, etc. maybe this will alleviate the negatives nonadoptees see in it.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I just posted a new thread for anyone who wants to share their views on adoption, since that's been coming up a lot in this thread.

Back to the point of abortion, I don't see why the father shouldn't be given a voice on the subject. Of course the final decision belongs to the mother, however, the repercussions of keeping/putting up for adoption/aborting a baby affect more than just one person (the mother).

Re: Late term abortion
 

I'm completely against late term abortion, unless it is to save the mother's life. And then, it is no longer called abortion.

They could. However there is only a 50% chance that the baby will survive. It would be considered a preemie, and it would have the same chance of surviving. But if the mum doesn't want it, I'm not sure they would save the fetus.

Re: Late term abortion
 

That sucks... But if the mother is absolutely dead-set against going through the rest of the pregnancy, at least that would allow a chance for the baby to survive. And then she could give him or her up for adoption. Its not an ideal situation, but I don't know what else could be done.

In most countries, late term abortion (after 24 weeks) is illegal, except in extreme circumstances, so that is a small comfort.

Re: Late term abortion
 

How was the survey conducted? Was it random? Did they choose just one clinic?

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Honestly, it's no one's damn business why a woman might want an abortion because no one can understand perfectly why she might want an abortion.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Then she should talk about it! Its something that needs to be discussed and understood fully before she makes that sort of a decision anyways.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

So a person is not able to make a decision unless they consult a bunch of other people? If we were like that we would never get anything done. And what if the woman had no one to talk to, I for one wouldn't want to talk to some stranger about whether I should get an abortion or not, what if you accidently came across and extremist that pushed so hard for the pro-life, or even pro-choice, side that the woman would feel like she couldn't make the decision for herself.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

That's not exactly what I meant. A woman should talk to the father and any relatives she feels she can talk to. She should explain how she feels and why she feels the way she does. I would also say that she should have to go to at least three counseling sessions before she is allowed to make the decision. Because it is a HUGE decision that will impact the rest of her life.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Whether you take me seriously or not I don't really care. I've said already, the two-armed man CANNOT understand how the one-armed man feels. I don't know why you're questioning something that I put in very simple terms. In case you cant catch it, I'm agreeing with you on this example and in the fact that non-adoptees cannot understand how an adoptee feels. They can sympathize but they cannot understand. However, the adoptee's opinions regarding adoption should not carry more weight than the non-adoptee because that implies that in some way they are above the rest, they are putting themselves on a pedestal and can easily play the card of "well you don't understand how I feel so I'm going to ignore you". The adoptee's opinion has better insight and probably more knowledge on the topic, however, in a debate, their opinions on the matter have the same weight.

To make it really clear to you, in your own words:

Carry through with the pregnancy and possibly give the child up for adoption. Although the problem I see with this is that orphanages will be very strained due to the large amounts of children and there is no guaruntee that the child will be adopted in the first place. It reduces the chances of the child being adopted and I suspect that would be rather hard on the children.

I agree, when people say abortion should be illegal, then you have to wonder, if that indeed did happen, what would be some likely practical outcomes in addition to adoption? If some families are struggling financially, then taking a child in, whether the government makes them or whether they choose to, is only going to worsen the situation not only for the adoptee but for the entire family including the adoptee.

Well from what you've shown in this thread, you are not very open-minded about non-adoptees and according to you, non-adoptees are not very open-minded about adoptees. But thank you for the wonderful generalization with what adoptees and non-adoptees viewpoints are.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

You also have to understand, such comments (directed in general)

> Abortion is kinder on children than adoption
> Adoption would cause too much trauma for the child, it's better to abort (although edited, somebody more or less said I was better off dead yesterday without realizing it)

Etc. That have been going around this thread, by nonadoptees mind you - I do have a right to speak out against that kind of thinking as do all adoptees.

As in the case of what may be best for the mother, THAT'S open to debate - but what's "kinder" and "best" for the child being abortion over adoption? Which has been stated or I've misread some - then, yeah, I'd say adoptees & orphans definitely would have more of a say because we've lived through an experience others are trying to judge without experience.

That's like me telling a kid who's father ran away that he should be be dead right now because that would be too hard for him. That's as logical as anything else I've heard sounds. Or better example yet saying it's the better choice for any minority group - whether it be be race, sexual preference or culture.

Once again, what's best for the mother is open to debate, but when people start sayings as "abortion is kinder for the child than adoption" - that brings us into the equation. (note that this post is generalized)

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

...It's not that bad?! Have you SEEN a pregnant women? Talked to one? Hell, I have a freaking period each month that makes me not want to ever get pregnant.
My orchestra teacher now has a messed up back, was throwing up nearly 24/7 to the point that she had to stay at the hospital on an IV (Not only comfort factor, but money much?) to get fluids. It's not a walk in the park. And don't say "Not that bad" until you've felt how ever person who's pregnant has felt.


I also want to say, that everything said is not directly at one person. And sometimes it can appear that way, and if you see something against you, try not to get too upset or take it like a personal attack - this is a debate, there are probably going to be people who strongly believe you're an idiot for thinking the way you are. But if it is truly a personal attack, lemme know and we'll deal with it. ^_^

Re: Late term abortion
 

Hey-

I really like the sources you've put out there and so forth. I think it's amazing.

What I am going to do though, is try to consolidate some of the abortion threads, and I feel this fits in with the other abortion debate going on, but I don't want to just close this because I feel it has good information. So let's see if I can properly figure out how to do this. Haha.

Maria.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Umm... I guess you haven't read any of my previous posts in this thread.

I AM CURRENTLY 31 WEEKS PREGNANT

and yeah, it definitely aint fun. My own pregnancy has had several harmful complications. But I still hold true by what I said. Its not bad enough to deny someone the chance of life.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

I actually just realized that I misinterpreted Gidig's statement. I took "And don't say "Not that bad" until you've felt how ever person who's pregnant has felt." to mean, unless you have been pregnant, you don't know what pregnancy feels like. I didn't realize that she meant until I've felt every single woman's pregnancy. If that is the way she meant it, I'm sorry. My mistake.

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

You certainly do have the right to speak out against that.

Others can judge even if they lack the experience. And as they can judge without this experience, they can provide a different view that adoptees may be less able to give. But of course, since adoptees have a much more weighted say, who cares about what the non-adoptees say, after all, it doesn't really matter. That's what you're implying what you say adoptees have a more weighted say: the views of non-adoptees don't matter as much, you're putting the adoptees on a pedestal when in reality, they shouldn't be. Sure, the adoptees have gone through things non-adoptees have but non-adoptees have gone through things adoptees haven't regarding their childhoods. So, instead of being open-minded and equally hearing what others have to say, you'd rather be narrow-minded and arrogant? Sounds like a plan, you're totally all for being open-minded :rolleyes.

You could tell the kid that but someone else's statement, whether it is the kid or not, has equal weight as what yours carries.

Yes, it does bring adoptees into question. But it does not bring adoptees on a pedestal and undermine whatever the non-adoptee's viewpoints are simply because they are not an adoptee.

But Josh, I have a question for you. Let's say by some miracle, abortion is abolished. Then what? We fill the orphanages up even more, make more of them, and possibly reduce the probabilities of a child getting adopted? What do you suppose happens, what would you want to happen? After all, you've been saying over and over how you're so affected by being an adoptee, what would you do to make it less harsh on the children?

Re: Abortion is wrong.
 

Yes - I think anybody with a strong distrust of government wouldn't be thrilled by the third idea. I am still waiting for a few more replies to my post, though.

I personally think that instead of debating about the morality of abortion itself, more attention should be placed on children born to mothers who do not have the resources to properly rear a child, along with renewed focus on improving the foster care system.