Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Abortion should only be legal if its going to endanger the mothers life, or if the baby has something seriously wrong with it. Even in the case of rape I think the mother should still have it but give it up for adoption if necesary, and dont think im being insensitive when i say that as I have been a sexual abuse victim too. Abortion is murder. Immaturity or rape are not excuses for taking someones life away x

Re: Abortion???
 

Forcing a woman to carry a baby for 40 weeks when she had no say in its conception (ie. rape) is taking someone's life away. It may not be permanent, but that woman would be forced to give up almost an entire year of her life for something that was done to her. She has to suffer numerous, unpleasant pregnancy symptoms. She has to take days off work to deal with morning sickness etc., doctor's appointments. She has to take weeks, maybe months off, in maternity leave. If she isn't getting paid for that, how exactly is she supposed to take care of herself? And what about the cost of all the medical bills? She has to give up her time and money for something that a rapist did?

If you get raped, the rapist is the criminal there. A woman shouldn't be accused of being a murderer for trying to cope and not wanting to have a baby that reminds them constantly of one of the most horrible experiences of their life.

Re: Abortion???
 

Yes I agree that the poor woman carrying the child of their rapist is having a year of their life taken away. And it is awful, I agree, but one year of your life being taken away, versus stopping anentire life coming into the world? I'd take the year of suffering, not the lifetime of guilt thanks x

Re: Abortion???
 

So you wouldn't feel guilty about that child having to grow up with the knowledge that their father was a rapist? Because I think that would be an incredibly devastating and traumatising thing to discover.

And what if the woman had a boyfriend or husband? You would make him suffer through a year of watching his girlfriend/wife have someone else's baby? Some guys wouldn't be able to cope with that, and might just leave. You would be willing for that woman to lose someone who she cares about so much to carry a baby to term?

And you said that you think abortion is okay if the pregnancy endangers the mother or child. But you don't think that psychological damage is as serious or as permanent as physical damage? Can you imagine how terrifying it would be for a woman to think she might be bringing another rapist into the world? I'm not saying that that would be the case, but some rapists are mentally unstable, and it is not entirely unreasonable to assume that they might pass their mental problems onto a child that can't always be detected prior to birth. That woman might feel guilty her entire life about the possibility that she allowed that trait to be passed on; probably more guilty than she would if she had the baby aborted.

You say that you would take the year of suffering. But I think you might feel a lot different if you were facing the prospect of having to drop out of school, getting kicked out of home, having to support yourself without any help, and bringing an unwanted baby into the world. It's unfair to judge people when you have never experienced what they might be going through.

Re: Abortion???
 

Personally, I think that if a woman wants to go ahead with an abortion, then she can, but if others go ahead with the pregnancy, purely because they feel that they wouldn't be able to go through with the abortion, then they should also be allowed to do so. You shouldn't judge people's decisions, they may have done it for the best. However, people using abortion as a form of contraception should not do this. If you make one mistake, then you should be allowed a second chance.

Re: Abortion???
 

Don't attack me!! I've already said I'm not being insensitive as I have been a victim of sexual abuse. If I were raped and became pregnant, I wouldn't kill it because of the baby's father's crimes. That's kinda cruel don' you think, taking someones life for someones else's crimes? Adoption is the way to do things, not abortion, give the baby up for a family who will love it despite its violent beginning.
My ex's birth dad used to kick the shit out of him and his mum, but my ex didnt turn out to kick the shit out of others. There isn't a "rape gene" thats passed on or anything.
Abortion is murder. period.

Re: Abortion???
 

In places where it is illegal, it is considered murder. In places where it is legal, it not murder. You can't have an opinion on the definition of a word. You can incorrectly use it, but you can't change the definition. You can think it is a brutal and horrifying killing of an innocent person, but you can't decide whether it is murder or not. Unless you think that abortion is a flock of crows... then go ahead and use it.

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

I don't think abortion is wrong.

I very much can't understand the pro-life point of view. To me, they have no argument. Abortion is legal as a matter of necessity. The reason abortion is legal is because when abortion was not legal very large numbers of women were dieing or seriously injuring themselves via dangerous illegal abortions. According to The Lancet in 2003 48% of all abortions worldwide were unsafe, and more than 97% of all unsafe abortions were in developing countries [Source] and the BBC state that 10,000 women die every year in Nigeria (where abortion is illegal) from unsafe abortions [Source]. This just shows that just because abortion is illegal does not mean that people will be discouraged. It's a simple logical case of one death is better than two. While many may not personally like abortion it seems to me that nobody should say that it is unnecessary or should be illegal.

As for abortion in general, I think it's fine. The only abortions I really have a problem with are late term abortions and considering only 1.6% of abortions are late term abortions it's not such a massive deal, I wouldn't be against lowering the time limit to 20 weeks or slightly earlier. 87% of abortions take place before 12 weeks, before the brain is even working [Source]. An unthinking ball of tissue, which potentially (barring miscarriages and other possibilities) could be a human, can't be allowed to have more rights than a living person.

At worst abortion is a necessary evil.

Re: Abortion???
 

I'm not attacking you. I'm disagreeing with your point of view, as well as everyone else who thinks like you. That's the point of debating... And I understand that you were sexually abused, but there is a huge difference between sexually abuse and becoming pregnant as a result of rape. I'm not trying to downplay what happened to you, but it isn't the same thing, and I do think you are being insensitive. And since you didn't respond to most of the points I made in my post, it seems like you aren't actually considering what I'm saying or what you're saying, you're just repeating the same things.

I think abortion is incredibly tragic. But in certain circumstances, it is far more preferably to the alternative. There are plenty of horror stories about foster homes. Would you like to place your child somewhere where they might get beaten up or sexually abused for years or would you rather give them a humane, painless death? There are an awful lot worse things you can do than taking someone's life away.

Abortion is not the same as murder. I believe in places where it is illegal, women don't actually get prosecuted for murder? It's a different crime, and regardless, putting scared and hurt women in the same category as hardcore criminals who murder for fun is just insensitive.

And like Darth Cara said, there are mental disorders that make people more likely to commit violent acts, that can be passed on, which is the point I was making in the first place. No, not everyone turns out like their parents, but if you thought there was the possibility of your child being a rapist, wouldn't you be a little too scared to take that risk?

Re: Abortion???
 

I don't connect a 4 or even 10 week old feotus with a baby in my mind. The two do not connect. Obviously I am only talking with limited knowledge here since as I am not in the situation I can only hypothesise, but if I got pregnant I would defintley consider having an abortion. I'm not old enough to have a baby, I'm about to start medical school, I do not have a stable relationship, I am not financially secure. I'm not in the position in my life to raise a child. Right now, I would not be a good mother. I would defintley consider adoption but as I said, to me something the size of a full stop is not a baby in any way, shape, or form.

In our country the abortion limit is 24 weeks gestation. I was part of a campaign in my college to encourage the government to lower this to 18 or 20 weeks, something that will probably happen in the near future. I am completely pro-choice and support whatever decision the mother makes, but at after 18 weeks it's a different story for me. There have been studies showing feotus' can feel pain from 20 weeks, etc.

I can see why people would be opposed to abortion. I just don't agree with the logic behind it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if you do not want to have an abortion, you do not have to. No one is going to force you to. Forcing somebody to carry and deliver a baby against their will though is something I would consider beyond cruel.

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

This is the point I try to make all the time. Making abortion illegal will not stop people from getting it done. If that were the case then in the years before it was legal there wouldn't have been so many people getting illegal ones.

My aunt got an illegal abortion. She was 14. She didn't die but due to that and some other stuff in her past she could not have kids. She was devastated and a part of her did regret the abortion but at the same time she knew she couldn't have had a kid at that age and she also knew her dad would have beat her to a pulp.

I agree that at worst abortion is a necessary evil. Abortion is sad. I wish people did not get into situations where they needed them but stuff happens mistakes are made.

Re: Abortion???
 

This is a debate forum, people will argue against you if they feel inclined to do so. Attacking you would mean insulting you and what happened to you, which is not happening. When someone says you're insensitive, it's their perception of you so it doesn't matter if you describe yourself as being sensitive, it's their judgment on your behavior and in this case, also text.

Sexual abuse is one thing, rape is another thing so while I sympathize with you, I think it's irrelevant to mention you've experienced abuse that was not rape.

Think about it this way: suppose the mother keeps the fetus growing inside of her and everyday has to look and have others comment on her pregnancy, each time to be reminded of the rape and the part of the rapist that's growing inside of her. But let's take your way, let's say she does continue the pregnancy. The baby now has no father it will know, unless the rapist decides to be a father so in all odds, the mother will have to raise the child herself. If she gets family or friends to help out, especially if she is a teenager, she may be an unfit mother. Thus, we have a baby whose mother is likely traumatized, the baby has no father it knows and the mother may not be a very fit mother. I mentioned traumatization because it's been shown the rape victims over 15 years after the incident still are traumatized (i.e. PTSD diagnosis, rape trauma syndrome).

So the mother has to have the part of the rapist growing inside of her and then once born, look at a baby who is 50% her rapist? Seems rather cruel to me.

Are you also aware that foster homes are not exactly the most pleasant place in the world, especially for young children? You keep the children alive but from what I've heard, including from on TH, foster homes are not a wonderful place. As it currently is, foster homes are over-crowded and under-funded, with many being shut down left, right and center. It's great when the child gets adopted but waiting to be adopted, being sent back or getting adopted by an abusive family are all possibilities.

To me, it seems like your concern is not the well-being of the soon-to-be child but rather simply keeping it alive and whatever happens after its alive happens, and whatever the mother and other people involved experienced you have ignored.

True but the same is said for numerous behaviors. Also, you don't need a single gene for a single behavior, if anything it's a combination of genes (ignoring the psychosocial contribution). There are also adaptive behaviors a person can have, so even if they were abused or statistically their risks should make it more likely they'd have a certain disorder, their protective or adaptive behaviors can counter those risks. Amazingly, there is no single gene for any of these either, so your single-gene argument is dismissed.

Murder is a crime and according to the law, abortion is not murder. You can disagree all you want but when you say it's murder according to the law, you're going to have to use the law which disagrees with you. Allow me to explain. A fetus is a human being but it is not a person because a person has duties, responsibilities, must adhere to certain laws and so forth. A fetus can do none of that, thus it is not a person.

Another reason though, there are various types of murder and the one closest to abortion is infanticide, however, that's applicable to an infant or a baby. For an abortion, that is not the case, it's a fetus, hence, abortion is not murder.

If you have a counter-argument that takes into consideration the law, then I'd be happy to hear it.

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

So a woman should be forced to continue her pregnancy if there is a severe health risk for her and it's very possible that she might die? You say that there is no excuse to kill a person, but refusing abortions to women in a situation like that, will kill them indirectly.

And why should a child have to grow up feeling completely unwanted? An unwanted child can either end up in a foster home (some of which will emotionally, physically, and sexually abuse the child) or will be kept at home being abused in the same way. Personally I think that's far more inhumane than allowing them a peaceful, painless death. If a child is aborted because it is unwanted, at least it doesn't have to suffer a lifetime of knowing that.

Re: Abortion???
 

Let me interrupt your guilt-tripping argument by saying that a fetus has no control over the environment outside the womb which it is in and so when it is born, the mother, father and whoever else (assuming a father and someone else are present) need to care for it. If they cannot, then keeping the child is only going to harm the situation they are in (i.e. financial), which in turn harms the child's well-being. But if it is brought into the situation, it can either be unwanted and rejected by its parents or it can be in such a poor condition it may be given away and feel rejected then too. The good news is the child is still alive but that's about where it ends.

Also, you might want to look up the law because killing any non-human is not murder as the organism is not a person nor a human.

Suppose protection and the pill were used but by chance, both were unsuccessful. Do you support abortion? Why or why not?

Re: Abortion???
 

[font="Century Gothic"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by emma01 (Post 361745) I disagree with abortion! If your stupid enough to do it without protection, and still stupid enough to forget the morning after pill, then you're either trying to get pregnant...or just plain stupid.

What if a condom was used and another form of contraception such as the pill? What if both of those failed?
If the condom split and the woman was on the pill the maybe they wouldn't think it an emergency to take the morning after pill as they'd assume the pill would be working.

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

But what constitutes a genuine reason? You say that being too young is not an excuse. But what about those girls who have never been taught about sex or contraception? A lot of people believe that you can't get pregnant your first time, or that the withdrawal method is effective, or that you can't get pregnant on your period. It isn't that they're stupid or careless; them not knowing more about sex is the result of their parents' and their schools' failure to teach them. Why should they have to suffer because of someone else's mistake?

And even for those girls who are just careless, pregnancies for women under the age of 20 carry significantly higher health risks. I wouldn't condemn a woman to die or become infertile or anything like that, just because she made a mistake.

Re: Abortion???
 

You didn't answer my question actually, so I'll ask again: supposing the couple used protection and the female used the pill but both failed, do you support the abortion then if she is either above or below 18? In either case, there is evidence she did think about pregnancy as protection was used.

Also, what is a "genuine reason"? According to you, abortion due to underage pregnancy is not a genuine reason so what is?

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

So any hereditary disease would be a genuine reason to abort the baby if the mother wanted to? Some are more severe than others (obviously) but some are simply things such as an extra finger or toe or two. To me, that seems completely in a different ball-park than the baby having a hereditary disease where it'd die in a few painful years or live longer but require immense assistance for everything. Suppose for example Proteus Syndrome was detectable before its onset (not sure if it currently is but I think it isn't), that's nothing compared to polydactyly, and aborting because of polydactyly seems ridiculous.

If you want you can continue to but there's no need to say your opinion because it's redundant.

When you say too young to have a baby, do you mean too young to physically have one or too young to provide proper care to it without the assistance of others?

Re: Abortion???
 

But as I said before, the majority of teenagers who get pregnant are the ones who don't have a proper knowledge or understanding of sex and contraception. They might not understand how high the risk of pregnancy is or how ineffective a certain form of contraception, like withdrawal, is. How is someone supposed to be responsible for their actions if they don't understand the risk?

For example, a 10 year old who has an older boyfriend. She has never been taught about sex before, and the older boy takes advantage of that, telling her that having sex will demonstrate how much they love each other. She gets pregnant. How can you say this is her fault for having sex? How much did you know about sex at 10? Even at 16, some schools and parents only teach abstinence. If you've never been taught about sex and how to prevent pregnancy, how can you be expected to magically know how to not get pregnant?

You can't just say someone who is too young to have kids has to have one because someone else didn't teach them about sex. That just makes a bad situation worse.

Re: Abortion???
 

I believe in a woman's right to choose, so I'm cool with it. I'd prefer if the person kept the baby but it is their choice after all. To me, a foetus is a ball of cells that doesn't even have a nervous system until a couple of weeks anyway. A foetus is, in my opinion, not a person I do not count abortion as murder.

Re: Abortion???
 

Unfortunately I do not, so I will amend that. In my opinion, then, abortion is murder. I think if the baby is under 6 weeks then it is okay because at that point it is only a bunch of cells, and doesnt even have a heart. After that, it is human and therefore I think it is unnaceptable except in certain life threatening circumstances to have an abortion.
Back to the rape baby thing, if you don't want to give it up for adoption and put the baby into care as they can be horrible places, then why not, early on, have the fetus transfered to another womens womb? This can be done, and you would not necessarily have to pay for it - the women who wants the baby usually does.
And I apologise for accusing people of attacking me, I was feeling a bit sensitive, I am sorry, the point of a debate is to argue pretty much.

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

Re: Abortion???
 

So in your opinion, abortion is illegal? Why aren't people getting arrested for it then?

Re: Abortion???
 

So abortion isn't murder if it's at less than 6 weeks? So basically you're saying that abortion is okay, it's just an issue of timing?

Okay, I've never heard of a fetus being able to be transferred from one womb to another, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Would you care to provide some sort of website that details that procedure? However, it seems to me that there would be very few women in the world who would want to have a procedure like that. If they are in need of IVF, don't they usually use their own eggs?

Also, transferring the fetus still carries the issue of women seeing the baby as "a rapist's baby". There is still the issue of possible mental disorders and the child still carries that stigma. In cases where the women is simply too young or unfit or doesn't want the baby, this might be suitable; but, for pregnancies by rape, there are still all the same problems.


But if the boy isn't 16? If the boy doesn't understand any more about sex than the girl? I feel like you're ignoring the main point of my question. If someone gets pregnant due to someone else neglecting to teach them about sex, is an abortion reasonable? As I pointed out, even older teenagers still believe that withdrawal is an effective means of preventing pregnancy. Or that you can't get a girl pregnant while she has her period. A lot of that is due to the preaching of abstinence rather than safe sex. And if people have no idea that there is more to know about sex, how will they know to look for more information?

(And although it is unrelated, the majority of girls get their first period at 12-13, and a lot of 12 year olds do not know any more about sex than 10 year olds)

Re: Abortion???
 

First, we're all a bunch of cells so that's not an argument that applies only to the fetus. Second, the fetus is a human from the start because it has human DNA and was made by two humans. So why do you consider it a human then? Furthermore, before the time when you consider it a human, what do you consider it?

Does this happen in the majority of cases?

Well... yeah it's to argue in hopefully a civilized manner, what else would it be about?

You said specifically a hereditary disease, which does include polydactyly and many other diseases that may be a social inconvenience but are not life threatening. So either you need to be specific in which hereditary diseases or you accept all or none of them as viable reasons for having an abortion.

A pretty shitty life. We have some houses near where I live and the people take in handicapped people, either mental or physical. One in particular is a very thin man, not sure how old but definitely an adult and his "fun" is going to the end of the drive-way and having the wind flap some little toy or paper or something small. I haven't talked to him so I don't know his conversational abilities but I'd imagine they're not very sophisticated.

Why can you not agree? Putting aside the soon-to-be baby, the mother (and possibly father)'s lives as you mentioned are both flopped all around and their education, career and so forth are all delayed. For the baby, if they're in such an environment, then the mother's mother/father will need to take care of it but if they're busy, then it's day-care or having the mother's grandparents come into the picture. As you said, it'd be for the best and I agree with you on that but why can you not agree because your argument seems to be in favour of abortion in this case, not against it?