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OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! April 10th 2010 11:29 AM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PunkRoxS9 (Post 363046)
So are you implying that because you think breasts are sexual objects, they should not be used for anything else in public?
WTF? No, not at all, he's implying that there is a psychosocial taboo on female breasts, one whereby they should be covered up otherwise it breaches the accepted and recognized norm of society. They can still have other uses, just having them shown out in society isn't very accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emma01 (Post 363059)

I was talking about motorways, where one cannot just pull over. And on the busy streets, there can be traffic jams blocking the road for ages.

I know it was me that brought it up, but this is getting a bit off topic. Im going to say that I think babies don't need to be fed right away, and in certain circumstances, they cannot be fed right away! So surely they can wait until somewhere private!
Depends on how long they have to wait. When a baby cries for food, the parents don't suddenly jump to it because they feel like it, they do so to feed the baby as they need to be fed asap. If the wait is very short, then feeding them in privacy shouldn't have much of a negative effect but if it's a long wait, then unfortunately, it needs to be done then and there.

If there are traffic jams, then the car isn't moving, so quickly feeding the baby, even if it's not feeding it until it's full is doable.

L'espoir April 10th 2010 12:25 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by emma01 (Post 362397)
And if its human rights to be allowed food, well next time im at school and im hungry, I will leave right in the middle of class! At pre-school even, kids have to wait until play lunch or lunch!
You think these 2 things are the same? So, when you don't get fed do you start screaming and crying that you want food? :p

PhoenixAlive April 10th 2010 01:12 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
I know that I've come into this late, but I have read through all of the posts, so I know how crazy this thread has gotten. I just thought I'd put in my two cents. I'm not going to quote all of the posts I'm replying to because that would just get ridiculous.

Firstly, I do agree with breast-feeding in public only if the mother is discrete about it. I know some have said that the breast virtually disappears behind the baby's head and that you can't see any nipple action, but as someone who has breast-fed, I know that it doesn't work that way.

For some (including me) breastfeeding is something that you really have to work on to get used to and its very difficult to latch correctly. When you don't latch correctly it is very painful for the mother and frustrating for the child because they won't get enough milk.

So in order to learn to get the correct latch you have to have lots of room (so breastfeeding in a public toilet would be near impossible unless the mother was already practiced), be in a good position with pillows propping you up and such or in a chair with armrests, and you have to be able to see your breast and your baby's mouth. You can't be covered up with a blanket or anything. I couldn't get coordinated enough to breastfeed without seeing what I was doing for several weeks.

Because of this, I only breastfed at home. When I was out, or if immature relatives were around and made a fuss, I took bottles of pumped breast milk and my baby ate that.Some women don't want to do this because of the idea that sucking from the nipple of a bottle and sucking the mother's nipple requires different techniques (a baby has to work less to eat from a bottle) and the baby might get confused and then refuse the breast. This eventually happened to me. This was very frustrating for my baby and myself.

The problem with this is that you cannot produce breast milk by pumping alone if you are not also breastfeeding. So my milk dried up and my daughter had to go on formula. You may say that there is nothing wrong with bottle feeding a baby and they get enough nutrients that way, and I agree. However, in order to exclusively bottle feed our daughter, it costs us over $150 a month in formula alone. That really adds up, and I can see a mother being okay with offending a few people to save that much money every month.

So really, you have to think of the big picture. Is seeing a woman breast-feeding a baby off-putting in certain situations? Yes. Especially in nice restaurants. But in the long-run is it worth the frustration and financial difficulties to force a woman to bottle feed in public? No.

EDIT: And as an added note about a woman breast-feeding in a public toilet or running out of a meeting and returning after breastfeeding, or even breastfeeding in a traffic jam, in average, breastfeeding a baby takes at least 20 minutes, sometimes up to 45 minutes. By that time your food is cold and everyone is ready to leave without you. This is from personal experience as well as research. http://info.k4health.org/inforeports...ng/index.shtml

DeletedAccount64 April 10th 2010 08:20 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dement (Post 363087)
You think these 2 things are the same? So, when you don't get fed do you start screaming and crying that you want food? :p
I'm all pro breastfeeding here, but I will point out that some kids do start making a fuss if they're hungry. I'm fifteen and I have awful tantrums when I get hungry and I'm not allowed to eat. My cousins are pretty much the same, and they're older. The only difference is, we choose to have a tantrum, the baby doesn't know any other method of communication or getting what it wants x

emma01 April 10th 2010 08:21 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dement (Post 363087)
You think these 2 things are the same? So, when you don't get fed do you start screaming and crying that you want food? :p
Oh yes totally! :P Man you should see me!

(lol i am kidding!)

Toast April 11th 2010 02:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefaithlove (Post 362832)


That is really irrelevant to the debate. Babies don't know any better than to be self centered. When there is a baby, their needs are the most important thing at the time. Babies and children are VERY different. Feeding a baby has nothing to do with being selfish.

You're the one that brought it up.
Quote:
Boy oh boy do I feel bad for some of your future babies.
Why? Because they won't exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!YOU'RE$NUCKING$FUTZ!!! (Post 362972)
Abstract thinking such as that requires certain parts of the brain to be developed, which in babies, isn't fully developed, so you're hating on them for something they cannot control even if they somehow wanted to.
Do people just not read my posts or something? Why do you think I said "it's not their fault, but..."

hopefaithlove April 11th 2010 03:48 AM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toast (Post 362236)

Maybe, but you did imply it.


Because the whole "I think this so you should all have to deal with it and I don't care what you think because you should think this" attitude is definitely not selfish at all.
You brought it up right here.

OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! April 11th 2010 05:07 AM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toast (Post 363544)
Do people just not read my posts or something? Why do you think I said "it's not their fault, but..."
How should I know what you were thinking then? I'm not a mind-reader. It makes no sense when you say it's not their fault but I hate them anyways for that reason, so people may think you're not being serious, mistyped something or they're misunderstanding you. The common thing then would be to ask for clarification or restate it back to you to see if that's what you meant. You've clarified it now so there's no reason to further ask.

Toast April 11th 2010 03:52 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefaithlove (Post 363587)


You brought it up right here.
No, I wasn't talking about the baby there.

L'espoir April 11th 2010 04:21 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toast (Post 363820)
No, I wasn't talking about the baby there.
To be honest it's not important who brought it up and when. The whole point is that it's not selfish for a woman to want to feed her child when it's hungry.

The Kira April 11th 2010 08:52 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
The person who told a young mother to not breast feed in public in my opinin, is an ignorant idiot! I wonder how they would feel is their child were hungry and their wife (or them) was told not to breast feed! That is one of the stupidest things I have eaver heard! I personally am disgusted bu such people

emma01 April 11th 2010 10:02 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dement (Post 363832)
To be honest it's not important who brought it up and when. The whole point is that it's not selfish for a woman to want to feed her child when it's hungry.
That is true, i do not agree with breast feeding in public, but a woman does have the right to feed her baby. Maybe to satisfy everyone, they should put rooms in the big malls to provide a room where breast feeding mums can go. So they can do it there and then, maybe just have to walk for 10 mins to go to the room. That would sort it out!

PhoenixAlive April 12th 2010 10:42 AM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by emma01 (Post 364074)

That is true, i do not agree with breast feeding in public, but a woman does have the right to feed her baby. Maybe to satisfy everyone, they should put rooms in the big malls to provide a room where breast feeding mums can go. So they can do it there and then, maybe just have to walk for 10 mins to go to the room. That would sort it out!
Actually, I've seen malls that have those. The Hillcrest Mall in Richmond Hill, Ontario has a mother's lounge with several changing tables and comfortable seating for breastfeeding, as well as a few bathroom stalls. But that doesn't solve the issue of breastfeeding in other places. Many public establishments aren't going to have the space or money to make separate areas for mothers to breastfeed, and there are no malls in rural areas, so I don't believe that would fix the problem.

Brandon April 12th 2010 02:57 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kira (Post 364011)
The person who told a young mother to not breast feed in public in my opinin, is an ignorant idiot! I wonder how they would feel is their child were hungry and their wife (or them) was told not to breast feed! That is one of the stupidest things I have eaver heard! I personally am disgusted bu such people
Way to bash people for their beliefs just because they disagree with yours. That's real effective in debates. </sarcasm>

Maloo April 12th 2010 04:49 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
I honestly think this thread should just be closed. It's turning into a bitch-fest with no new points at all.

ThrashAttack April 12th 2010 04:59 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
I agree so much.

Mods, you know what to do

Blackwing April 12th 2010 06:58 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashAttack (Post 364625)
I agree so much.

Mods, you know what to do


I agree........

C0co April 12th 2010 06:59 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon (Post 362967)
Yes! That's exactly what I'm saying!



So because you think of breasts as sexual, babies are going to think of them that way as well instead of seeing them as a source of food?

Maloo April 12th 2010 07:36 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by C0co (Post 364703)
So because you think of breasts as sexual, babies are going to think of them that way as well instead of seeing them as a source of food?
Uhm. No. That wasn't even close to what he was saying. He was saying why it's seen as inappropriate for women to breastfeed in public, because it's a social taboo for women to have their breasts exposed in public.

forfrosne April 12th 2010 07:42 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
I see nothing wrong with it, as long as you don't get OTT about it, eg. you take your top off and stand in the middle of the path haha!

iHEAVENn April 12th 2010 08:07 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
As a MOTHER I'm going to reply to this thread.

While I don't like seeing breasts out in the open, if another mother is covered up neatly feeding her child then fine.
They do have rooms in malls now where a mom can go to feed her baby... Some rather nice rooms with comfy sofa's and nice music etc.

However no restaurant that I've been to, offers such a room. So if a mom brings a feeding blanket, and needs to feed the child then fine. I'd personally rather have a quiet feeding baby nearby than a screaming angry unhappy infant.

Baby's are also fed on a schedule. Sometimes mom's go out during that schedule and it's out of their control. We shouldn't have to sit at home an extra 2 hours waiting for feeding time to roll around. We are people too, and if we would like to go out then so be it.

Like I said before, as long as feeding is kept undercover where's the problem at?

People bitch all the time because baby's are crying in restaurants etc.... but then they turn around and bitch because the mother's are trying to take care of the crying infant?? Honestly, where's the logic in that kids?

I know one mother who's infant was hungry, and she was on the interstate coming home.. She was able to pull off into a grassy patch and feed that child.. A cop did come along and ask what was up but when he found out she was taking care of the infant he sat behind her making sure no one came along etc.

Also, if you're in a restaurant trying to eat your meal and you get sat by an infant simply ask to be moved to where the mother/child is out of sight. Then there wont be an issue for you, and the child that needs food, can get fed.


I see a lot of 15 year olds replying saying they hate it etc... When you become a parent, come back to this group and then let us know how you feel about it. Until such time, you do not know how the mother feels, you do not know how the infant feels and you do not know what is best for that infant at the time.

emma01 April 12th 2010 08:43 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myss (Post 364620)
I honestly think this thread should just be closed. It's turning into a bitch-fest with no new points at all.
YES i totally agree!

LucyLouWho April 13th 2010 02:16 AM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashAttack (Post 360184)
In my personal opinion i think it is disgusting , there is a time and place for that type of thing and i dont really want to walk past it whilst im eating my Greggs sausage Roll.

I dont really care if you shoot me down for this, i dont think Breastfeeding should happen in public.
So you'd rather hear a screaming, hungry infant (who isn't going to stop until s/he is fed) than see a little bit of boob while a baby is being fed?

LucyLouWho April 13th 2010 02:22 AM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
I'm almost certain that every single person in this thread saying that breastfeeding shouldn't be done in public don't have any kids. Right?

You'll understand when you have children that when your little one is hungry and upset, you'll do anything that you have to do to feed your baby and make sure that s/he is taken care of, nourished, and loved. And you're not going to give a damn what anyone thinks about it either.

Breasts are FOR breastfeeding. That's the whole reason that women have them. So why in the hell are we not allowed to use them in public for what they were intended for? Because some people can't get the connections of boobs and sex off their mind? Sounds like the breastfeeding mothers aren't the ones with the problem.

Blackwing April 13th 2010 03:19 AM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsCVBerg (Post 364970)
I'm almost certain that every single person in this thread saying that breastfeeding shouldn't be done in public don't have any kids. Right?

You'll understand when you have children that when your little one is hungry and upset, you'll do anything that you have to do to feed your baby and make sure that s/he is taken care of, nourished, and loved. And you're not going to give a damn what anyone thinks about it either.

Breasts are FOR breastfeeding. That's the whole reason that women have them. So why in the hell are we not allowed to use them in public for what they were intended for? Because some people can't get the connections of boobs and sex off their mind? Sounds like the breastfeeding mothers aren't the ones with the problem.
I will say it once more.... worse things happen in public other then ^

Maloo April 13th 2010 02:15 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Maybe this thread could go somewhere if people left the attitude out of their posts when they're trying to state a point. Everyone's entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to be rude about it.

LucyLouWho April 13th 2010 02:34 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myss (Post 365233)
Maybe this thread could go somewhere if people left the attitude out of their posts when they're trying to state a point. Everyone's entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to be rude about it.
Oh, I've seen much more rudeness in religion debates. This is nothing.

ThrashAttack April 13th 2010 03:22 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
So you'd rather hear a screaming, hungry infant (who isn't going to stop until s/he is fed) than see a little bit of boob while a baby is being fed?
I took back that statement if you botherd to read the whole thread...

Maloo April 13th 2010 03:45 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsCVBerg (Post 365241)
Oh, I've seen much more rudeness in religion debates. This is nothing.
That's not really the point though. It shouldn't be happening anywhere. People should be able to discuss things without being rude to one another.

Jocelyn. April 13th 2010 04:00 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myss (Post 365270)

That's not really the point though. It shouldn't be happening anywhere. People should be able to discuss things without being rude to one another.
People get heated when they feel their views are being judged... that's just how it goes. If someone is easily offended, then I suggest the stay out of the Debates forum.

I personally don't think anyone is really being rude, just stating and defending their opinions. Maybe some a little more harsh than others, but no one is really being rude.

Maybe the person who keeps saying this thread is going nowhere because of pointless posts should stop making pointless posts....

Maloo April 13th 2010 04:04 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadFish (Post 365276)
Maybe the person who keeps saying this thread is going nowhere because of pointless posts should stop making pointless posts....
And that's the attitude I'm talking about.

And I contributed to this discussion earlier, I'm just saying that it's run its course, and I think it should be closed. Other people agreed with me as well, so I don't personally consider it pointless.

ThrashAttack April 13th 2010 04:08 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Im personaly sick of seeing people squable on this thread

L'espoir April 13th 2010 05:53 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadFish (Post 365276)
People get heated when they feel their views are being judged... that's just how it goes. If someone is easily offended, then I suggest the stay out of the Debates forum.

I personally don't think anyone is really being rude, just stating and defending their opinions. Maybe some a little more harsh than others, but no one is really being rude.

Maybe the person who keeps saying this thread is going nowhere because of pointless posts should stop making pointless posts....
I agree with this completely. I don't see anything rude going on, I think that some people see it as rude just because their opinion has been debated. Anyway it's not up to people to decide when it has run it's course or whatever, it will close when people stop posting.

Mizu-Kun April 13th 2010 06:43 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
If breast-feeders want to do so in public, let 'em. If they don't want to, then that's their choice. It's society's responsibility to stop being so afraid of seeing a boob and just let 'natural' happen.

Quote:
I'm just saying that it's run its course, and I think it should be closed.

You haven't read many of the posts have you? MrsCVBerg, iHEAVENn, and PhoenixAlive all posted new points, but you ignored them.

DeletedAccount64 April 13th 2010 08:02 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizu-Kun (Post 365363)
You haven't read many of the posts have you? MrsCVBerg, iHEAVENn, and PhoenixAlive all posted new points, but you ignored them.
[/size][/color][/font]
High five! Why close the thread just because a few people are getting a bit arsy. If you don't like it, leave, don't post irritating "lets close this thread" messages.

Anyway, I don't get why its offensive or innapropriate for a women to breastfeed in public when a) you dont see anything b) worse things happen and c) you wouldn't want a screaming baby crying for food while you eat, giving you a headache and disrupting your meal. What is innapropriate about something so natural??

Brandon April 13th 2010 08:03 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
I personally don't think anyone is really being rude, just stating and defending their opinions. Maybe some a little more harsh than others, but no one is really being rude.


Here is an example of rudeness:

Quote:
The person who told a young mother to not breast feed in public in my opinin, is an ignorant idiot! I wonder how they would feel is their child were hungry and their wife (or them) was told not to breast feed! That is one of the stupidest things I have eaver heard! I personally am disgusted bu such people
There's a polite way to disagree with someone's opinion. Just because I don't support breastfeeding in all public places doesn't turn me into an old fashion white slave owner. It doesn't mean that I'm discriminating against women, or pregnant women, or babies. Nor does that mean I don't support breastfeeding. I have morals just like everybody else. To say that I'm disgusting because I hold an opinion is kind of absurd? We're all different, we've all been raised in different environments, and we've been taught different things. The best part is that I am doing no physical or mental harm. I'm not demoralizing women any way shape or form. And to say that I'm ignorant just because I'm a male? Just because I'm not a woman nor a woman with children doesn't mean I lack knowledge. I could know everything about pregnancy and have personally dealt with crying babies, but the bottom line is that...it's all just an opinion. It's no different with religion...you could tell a person ANYTHING you wanted to...but the bottom line is people believe what they want to believe. And there's polite ways to say what you believe without calling the other person stupid or disgusting just because they don't agree with you. Just because they disagree with you isn't a valid enough reason to make false assumptions. The name calling is irrelevant. The debate is about nothing but breastfeeding in public and your opinion. If you disagree with someone, you disagree with someone. Fine...you can't expect everyone to agree with every belief/opinion...whatever that you have. But we're civilized human beings, and we've dealt with how powerful words can be. Just one word can throw your whole belief of. "All" guys are assholes, "all" women are bitches, "if you were a mother, you would understand", "all" women breastfeed. "I disagree with your opinion because you're an idiot". And to me, there's a fine line between disagreeing and being rude, and from what I've seen in this debate is the same stuff and "what if" scenarios...."what if I was in the middle of the Sahara desert and these was a restaurant and my baby started crying...would you let me breastfeed my child now asshole?!"

I encourage breastfeeding, but I don't encourage breastfeeding in all public environments. I guess peeing outside isn't the most hygenic thing that you can do outside...but hey, it saves millions of gallons of water. That's a good thing, right? If I can't pee on a tree at a soccer game and everyone knows that I'm pissing on a tree and they just can't see my penis...it is a 'natural' bodily function. People don't complain because it's unhygienic...they complain because it's "inappropriate". If they were completely watching the game, they would have no idea. Even though breast feeding is a natural thing, there's still people who consider it inappropriate in public. Why? Cause we're all different and believe different things. It's just the way we are.

Maloo April 13th 2010 11:38 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon;365429[COLOR=Navy

I encourage breastfeeding, but I don't encourage breastfeeding in all public environments. I guess peeing outside isn't the most hygenic thing that you can do outside...but hey, it saves millions of gallons of water. That's a good thing, right? If I can't pee on a tree at a soccer game and everyone knows that I'm pissing on a tree and they just can't see my penis...it is a 'natural' bodily function. People don't complain because it's unhygienic...they complain because it's "inappropriate". If they were completely watching the game, they would have no idea. Even though breast feeding is a natural thing, there's still people who consider it inappropriate in public. Why? Cause we're all different and believe different things. It's just the way we are.
I very much so agree with this, and I like the way you worded it.[/color]

forfrosne April 14th 2010 12:07 AM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon (Post 365429)


Here is an example of rudeness:

There's a polite way to disagree with someone's opinion. Just because I don't support breastfeeding in all public places doesn't turn me into an old fashion white slave owner. It doesn't mean that I'm discriminating against women, or pregnant women, or babies. Nor does that mean I don't support breastfeeding. I have morals just like everybody else. To say that I'm disgusting because I hold an opinion is kind of absurd? We're all different, we've all been raised in different environments, and we've been taught different things. The best part is that I am doing no physical or mental harm. I'm not demoralizing women any way shape or form. And to say that I'm ignorant just because I'm a male? Just because I'm not a woman nor a woman with children doesn't mean I lack knowledge. I could know everything about pregnancy and have personally dealt with crying babies, but the bottom line is that...it's all just an opinion. It's no different with religion...you could tell a person ANYTHING you wanted to...but the bottom line is people believe what they want to believe. And there's polite ways to say what you believe without calling the other person stupid or disgusting just because they don't agree with you. Just because they disagree with you isn't a valid enough reason to make false assumptions. The name calling is irrelevant. The debate is about nothing but breastfeeding in public and your opinion. If you disagree with someone, you disagree with someone. Fine...you can't expect everyone to agree with every belief/opinion...whatever that you have. But we're civilized human beings, and we've dealt with how powerful words can be. Just one word can throw your whole belief of. "All" guys are assholes, "all" women are bitches, "if you were a mother, you would understand", "all" women breastfeed. "I disagree with your opinion because you're an idiot". And to me, there's a fine line between disagreeing and being rude, and from what I've seen in this debate is the same stuff and "what if" scenarios...."what if I was in the middle of the Sahara desert and these was a restaurant and my baby started crying...would you let me breastfeed my child now asshole?!"

I encourage breastfeeding, but I don't encourage breastfeeding in all public environments. I guess peeing outside isn't the most hygenic thing that you can do outside...but hey, it saves millions of gallons of water. That's a good thing, right? If I can't pee on a tree at a soccer game and everyone knows that I'm pissing on a tree and they just can't see my penis...it is a 'natural' bodily function. People don't complain because it's unhygienic...they complain because it's "inappropriate". If they were completely watching the game, they would have no idea. Even though breast feeding is a natural thing, there's still people who consider it inappropriate in public. Why? Cause we're all different and believe different things. It's just the way we are.
This has to be the first good post in about a page.

ThrashAttack April 14th 2010 10:40 AM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
High five! Why close the thread just because a few people are getting a bit arsy. If you don't like it, leave, don't post irritating "lets close this thread" messages.
Dont be so rude about it....

Yes im getting tired of people saying that as well

BabyIndia April 14th 2010 04:28 PM
Re: breast feeding in public
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myss (Post 365233)
Maybe this thread could go somewhere if people left the attitude out of their posts when they're trying to state a point. Everyone's entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to be rude about it.

And you haven't been rude?

Gah this thread has become so annoying.

Some people agree with breast feeding.
Some people don't.

Lets just all get on with our lives for christ sake instad of arguing over petty little things.


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