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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Burkini Ban - August 25th 2016, 06:44 PM

15 French towns have banned the burkini (or a swimsuit which covers the body and head) on beaches temporarily. These bans all expire I believe at the end of the summer.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-on-nice-beach

When it comes to racist and religious persecuting laws, I can sometimes understand intention. In this case, I have no idea what they're thinking or how they think this is a valid terrorism prevention method. Beyond that most Muslims are not terrorists and this is basically forcing women to strip down to a level they're not comfortable with...doesn't this just make extremists angrier? Does anybody actually win?


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Re: Burkini Ban - August 25th 2016, 07:28 PM

I think its some bullshit. It basically forces Muslim women not to go swimming, and what kind of freedom is that? Its complete discrimination.
It's SWIMWEAR. What do they expect to happen? Do they expect Muslim women to hide an explosive vest under it while they swim? In WATER? I can't imagine they had anything else in mind other than to discriminate, because there is no logical reason to do this.


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Re: Burkini Ban - August 25th 2016, 07:28 PM

Yes, this is stupid. As long as people aren't hurting or threatening anybody and are appropriately covered (not naked), I don't see why someone has to change to make other people more comfortable. If this were any other religion, I doubt this would be the reaction. Not to mention, she's surrounded by 4 male officers, that would make any woman uncomfortable, but in the Muslim culture, it's even more inappropriate.


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Re: Burkini Ban - August 25th 2016, 07:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
When it comes to racist and religious persecuting laws, I can sometimes understand intention. In this case, I have no idea what they're thinking or how they think this is a valid terrorism prevention method. Beyond that most Muslims are not terrorists and this is basically forcing women to strip down to a level they're not comfortable with...doesn't this just make extremists angrier? Does anybody actually win?
I don't actually agree with the burkini ban. From what I've seen there is far too much grey area, and ambiguity regarding what people this may apply to. They are targeting Muslims with it today supposedly "in light of current events", but what happens in 10 years when things change? And what if this is a stepping stone to more invasive laws? Politicians often use what is called a "foot-in-the-door" strategy, and the direction in which this legislation is going, is actually more oppressive than liberating as a whole, if people think about the greater context instead of just today's problems.

I feel like it is more of a publicity stunt for the mayors in charge... I do not think this ban actually changes things for the better. I think it's just designed to keep certain right wing supporters happy. It's also creating a formidable distraction in the media, whether intentional or not. Some have also theorized that it's a social experiment designed to gauge the public's response to such laws, in which case I can understand the motive. Citizens may be willing to curb their own civil liberties in the long term, just to "get one up on the Muslims". It is as stupid as it sounds, but it is true for many people in various contexts (not just right wing vs. Muslims).

If France wants to do something about their Islamic extremism problem, then something else which they are doing that is far more effective, is law enforcement's more invasive presence in Mosques, which has already produced evidence of links to Jihadism and ISIS, and even uncovered small stockpiles of weapons if I remember right, although the details have escaped me. It's odd how this is getting less media attention. It is certainly much more significant, but getting much less publicity at the same time. This could also be deliberate. I first heard it mentioned briefly on some news channel (France 24 I think), and never heard it again. Then I searched the internet and found only scattered reports of it. It should be noted that France 24 lends the impression of a more liberal news source, so I'd expect it to avoid spreading news like this, which may inspire anti-Muslim sentiments. But I've not seen right wing news talking much about this either, just a few mentions.

.


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Re: Burkini Ban - August 25th 2016, 07:55 PM

I'm ok with this ban. Tolerance is weakness.
I have no problem with what arcane laws Muslims have on their own nations. I don't want it here.

If she wants to wear a burkini, she can go to Oman.

However I think expelling all of them would be more effective at curtailing terrorism. Charles martel had the right idea. His descendants are so weak; they're like adult children.
   
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Re: Burkini Ban - August 25th 2016, 09:24 PM

I do not understand the ban, to me it's the most ridiculous idea. Why allow people to wear full body wetsuits but not burkinis? I read somewhere that the point is the women are French before they are Muslim, which again I think is ridiculous. I just don't understand how this is an effective method against terrorism; how does following your religion suddenly make you a terrorist? To me this is totally illogical, and incredibly demeaning for women who are being forced to strip in front of four men. If it was any other religion I don't think there would be so large an issue. I see no point to this ban and I think it shows how we are just going backward in terms of acceptance and toleration.


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Re: Burkini Ban - August 26th 2016, 04:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominant View Post
I'm ok with this ban. Tolerance is weakness.
I have no problem with what arcane laws Muslims have on their own nations. I don't want it here.

If she wants to wear a burkini, she can go to Oman.

However I think expelling all of them would be more effective at curtailing terrorism. Charles martel had the right idea. His descendants are so weak; they're like adult children.
What shouldn't be tolerated in this case, modest swimwear or... tolerance?


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Re: Burkini Ban - August 26th 2016, 12:58 PM

But you do realize that burkas aren't worn by women because they WANT THEM, but because the supposed "humility" is required by their religion, and is otherwise heavily punisheable... right?


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Re: Burkini Ban - August 26th 2016, 03:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominant View Post
I'm ok with this ban. Tolerance is weakness.
I have no problem with what arcane laws Muslims have on their own nations. I don't want it here.

If she wants to wear a burkini, she can go to Oman.

However I think expelling all of them would be more effective at curtailing terrorism. Charles martel had the right idea. His descendants are so weak; they're like adult children.
Tolerance... is weakness only to some people. Some people see tolerance, good will, and trustfulness, as weaknesses to be exploited by others. Most developed countries have moved forward from that.

But some have moved too far forward, and become tolerant of intolerance itself, cherry picking sides whenever it suits their agendas. Deriding right wing nationalism, whilst ignoring or even excusing Islamofascism as "being Europe's fault in the first place", implying that Europe somehow "deserves" this. This is partially what has allowed Islamic extremism to thrive, even on university campuses (source). This is a form of corruption, double standards. It is wrong, but you're not helping by "compensating" in the opposite direction. This is the kind of thinking that got us in the mess in the first place.

Attempting to expel all of them from our countries... could cause unprecedented riots across Europe. Same as Trump's policy to deport over 10 million illegal migrants (in total, nearly 10x as many people as in American armed forces). It is simply impractical, and would be very expensive, and it is something which ordinary law enforcement agencies are certainly not equipped to deal with. I imagine only military force is capable of achieving something like it, but from what I know, military intervention of that sort is illegal unless a state of emergency is declared, which at the same time suspends many civil liberties. A case study-in-progress of this is Pakistan wanting to shoo out 3 million Afghan refugees, and I'm interested in how it will play out.

It took a war to displace about 6 million people from Syria. It will take something equally seismic, to deport similar numbers, and we're not talking about similar numbers. We're talking about larger numbers in total. If this done by force, it'll no doubt cause formidable collateral damage to other social groups (as is always the case with things like this). Let's not start a civil war on our own soil.

It's a dangerous idea. Focusing on the past mistakes is the wrong approach. Too many migrants were let in too soon, but it's done. As shit as the situation is, we have to work with what we've got now instead of seeking "retribution". Do whatever is necessary to close the borders, integrate the existing migrants some way or other, uncompromisingly deport the criminals (be it harassment, assault, or robbery), and move forward. A far greater problem now is that people are too fking angry to think rationally. If someone were to stand on a podium tomorrow campaigning for some public office and say the things I have said, they probably wouldn't win, because most likely someone else who is truly into right wing extremism, would out-compete that person with far more radical ideas. The choice now is either far right, or far left. I don't know which is worse at this point. Both make me puke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by St.Anger View Post
But you do realize that burkas aren't worn by women because they WANT THEM, but because the supposed "humility" is required by their religion, and is otherwise heavily punisheable... right?
Some do want them, some don't. Besides, Burkas aren't quite the same as these "Burkinis". Honestly, I don't like Burkas. I have made a thread about this before, but I can't find it.

Communication between people builds trust. Lack of communication builds distrust. 20% of communication is verbal, 80% non-verbal (body language). The Burka covers up pretty much all of the body, that is, 80% of communication. Additionally, the remaining 20% is not much good either if in many cases they can't even speak the native language. These are not statistics I've made up for my convenience (I've been accused of this), but estimates based of psychology research.

The distrust towards Muslims wearing the Burka is based off that. Although other controversies surrounding Islam add to that, it is coincidental.

Animals experience the same distrust and aggression when their owners do something stupid like put on a mask. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KIKrSG-Xzc

Lots more examples like that, with animals, with people. People wearing dark sunglasses are interpreted as less trustworthy on average.

I don't think banning Burkas or any of these things in public places is the way forward (for similar reasons as in my earlier post), but people should stop causing outrage when someone chooses to criticize them or ban them in places like private restaurants or shops, similar to how hoodies were banned in British shopping malls (although I recognize the motive was different behind that). People should be free to make their own rules, in their own privately owned space, without fear of getting bullied by some cretins on social media, or getting bricks thrown at their car.

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Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; August 27th 2016 at 06:01 PM.
   
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Re: Burkini Ban - August 26th 2016, 04:09 PM

I just read this article saying the burkini ban has been lifted:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7211396.html

According to the court, it was illegal and "has dealt a serious and clearly illegal blow to fundamental liberties such as the freedom of movement, freedom of conscience and personal liberty.” No evidence was found to back up the ban's claim that the swimwear was a risk to public order


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Re: Burkini Ban - August 26th 2016, 05:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Pan221 View Post
I just read this article saying the burkini ban has been lifted:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7211396.html

According to the court, it was illegal and "has dealt a serious and clearly illegal blow to fundamental liberties such as the freedom of movement, freedom of conscience and personal liberty.” No evidence was found to back up the ban's claim that the swimwear was a risk to public order
That's good news. If I remember the right, what might inspired the ban in the first place was a case of public disorder on a beach. There were various false reports and allegations, and ultimately I have no idea what the true version of events is.
  • One version was that some local residents were harassing women for wearing Burkinis.
  • Another version of the same event was that Muslim men were throwing stones at beach goers.
I'm inclined to believe it was somehow a combination of both of these versions. People generally do not want to be called out as liars, but at the same time have a habit of only telling half of the story... which skews perceptions.

I have a feeling that is what might have inspired the ban in the first place. It could have even been propaganda judging by current affairs. Made up entirely. Who the fuck knows. Gloves are off. Everyone is playing dirty by now.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; August 26th 2016 at 05:41 PM.
   
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