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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
Marvin Offline
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Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 17th 2009, 08:57 PM

JUST TO HIGHLIGHT, THIS ISN'T ABOUT WHO SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO GET 'MARRIED', IT IS NOT ABOUT THE PROTECTION OF MARRIAGE, WHETHER OR NOT MARRIAGE IS DEFINED AS A MAN AND A WOMAN. THIS IS A THEORETICAL DISCUSSION OF WHAT THE ACTIVIST AGENDA SHOULD BE, AND SO ON. READ MY WHOLE POST, AND AT LEAST SKIM THE LINK TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I MEAN.

The whole 'should same sex couples be allowed to get married', love vs tradition, argument is fought again and again on TH, and well, everywhere. Generally when we think of the gay marriage debate, it's about 'whether same sex couples should be allowed the same rights as straights'. For some of us, marriage is important (e.g. for religious reasons). Personally, it is important for me, so I do feel we should be allowed. On the other hand, I've recently listened to some interesting ideas from within the queer community that I think would be interesting to discuss.

Should we be fighting for same sex marriage? In the present, or should we wait till other issues are addressed, or should we just never do it. Is marriage a heteronormative ('straight' social norms. And not just heterosexual, but things that fit this rigid sorta frame work that comes out it. Look up the term) convention, it allows the state to be involved in your romantic life, and its discriminatory (e.g. in terms of wealth). Is fighting for marriage an attempt to assimilate into straight culture, and be all 'look at us, we are just like you?'. Does fighting for same sex marriage in the way that many are detract from and ignore more pressing queer issues?

Here's an interesting read:

http://queerkidssaynomarriage.wordpress.com/

Also, I want to outline once more, this isn't a discussion on whether or not we should have the right to get married, in terms of religion, or 'the definition of marriage' (no offence, but thats an absurd argument anyway), but more a discussion on if its what queers should be aiming for, or should they reject it, or what. I don't want to see anyone being all 'God says its wrong', or 'marriage is between a man and a woman'. Thankyou

I hope I've been clear. And perhaps this should be in the Sexuality and Gender forum, but at the same time, there are some straight members on TH that I think may be interested in this, and have something to contribute.

Last edited by Marvin; November 18th 2009 at 01:33 AM.
   
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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 17th 2009, 09:25 PM

I personally only see it for the monetary benefits. If the other rights and monetary benefits were stripped from marriage and marriage was just a title and nothing more, I wouldn't care the slightest. I just think it's silly that the government values heterosexual union but not homosexual union. And no one bring the crappy offspring argument, many heterosexuals marry with no intention of having kids.


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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 17th 2009, 10:10 PM

Honestly? If two people love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together it shouldn't matter what other people think. Homosexuals who wish to get married shouldn't think of it like being assimilated in to the 'straight' way of life.
I'm a firm believer that marriage should only be for love, not for money, for status, for legal reasons or for monetary reasons. Marriage is about love, and should stay that way. Just because homosexuals are fighting for the right of heterosexuals doesn't mean they wish to be like them, or change who they are, it's for all the same reasons. Love.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, fighting for the right to marry seems like a noble cause to me, and shouldn't be seen as a waste of time or trying to be 'straight'.


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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 17th 2009, 11:16 PM

One could argue you don't need marriage for love, and in many cases, the two are unrelated.
   
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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 18th 2009, 12:09 AM

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Originally Posted by Invert View Post
One could argue you don't need marriage for love, and in many cases, the two are unrelated.
I agree. I don't agree with marriage at all, to be perfectly honest. With divorce rates going up, marriage is less sacred (IMO) and more of written documentation basically saying that if the marriage messes up (which is a high possibility) and she decides to get as much money from me as she can from me (which women will do that), she legally can because of the documents that I've signed. Oh, and she gets to change her last name to my last name. Whoop dee doo.

I don't agree with people's arguments about "Oh...government shouldn't be involved with love" because I think that you don't need written documentation and spend thousands of dollars and time to tell the person that you love them. Marriage and love is something completely different. If a woman wanted to get married to me, I'd look at it as instead of "I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you", it's more like "I love you, and now I want to latch off your income, kthnx". I can name a couple people that I know who aren't married but have a family and a house. I only can name a couple people because I mostly know people my age instead of people in the 30's and 40's :P
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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 18th 2009, 12:12 AM

It's a term that I think should be changed... Like... For example. When I hear about how two girls "slept" together... It just makes me want to laugh. Because I think of how far they could actually go, and It's not that far. So when I hear marriage, thinking of two guys getting hitched in a church is just a little weird. There should just be another word for it. Maybe someone should create an environment for same sex marriages.


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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 18th 2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
I agree. I don't agree with marriage at all, to be perfectly honest. With divorce rates going up, marriage is less sacred (IMO) and more of written documentation basically saying that if the marriage messes up (which is a high possibility) and she decides to get as much money from me as she can from me (which women will do that), she legally can because of the documents that I've signed. Oh, and she gets to change her last name to my last name. Whoop dee doo.
See, I am always so confused by the idea of sacred. Does that mean valued? Why is marriage valued anyways?


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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 18th 2009, 12:54 AM

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Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post
It's a term that I think should be changed... Like... For example. When I hear about how two girls "slept" together... It just makes me want to laugh. Because I think of how far they could actually go, and It's not that far. So when I hear marriage, thinking of two guys getting hitched in a church is just a little weird. There should just be another word for it. Maybe someone should create an environment for same sex marriages.
Ok, your analogies are nothing alike, not to mention your understanding of lesbian sex is lacking. Using a strap on for example, or a double ended one at least is pretty much the same experience. Nonetheless, good sex is not based often on the intercourse alone. Infact. Intercourse is only a small part of sex, which doesn't even last particularly long. An orgasm is an orgasm. Sexual intimacy is sexual intimacy, and to suggest otherwise shows a complete lack of understanding of human sexual behaviours and reasons.

But, you COMPLETELY missed the point of the topic. Did you read my post, at all? I mean really, or just the title? If you read my post, and really didn't understand a word I said, read the link I added.

The discussion isn't or not gays should be allowed to get married, its more of a discussion, about if it should be a priority, should we queers reject marriage as a flawed institution (which if you didn't know is particularly classist, amongst other issues). And does it take focus away from more important issues. So its about same sex marriage from a queer-affirming point of view, not 'the protection of marriage' point of view.

Though I'm still bewildered how ignorant you are over gay issues, considering how often you feel like throwing your 2 cents in.
   
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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 18th 2009, 01:28 AM

In my short little opinion, don't feel like going into detail for once, I still think that if a gay person wants to get married, then fine. They should be able to.
But perhaps they should focus more on other issues, I'm sure there are other rights that gays don't have. For instance, if you're openly gay, you cannot be in the military. While that may not affect a lot of gay people, I'm sure there are other rights they don't have, right?

(when it comes to the no gays in the military, I kind of understand their reasoning, those men and women become very close to eachother, share rooms and change with eachother, and while I can understand why they might feel uncomfortable, perhaps they should grow up and realize that a gay man might not actually be interested in every single penis he sees.)



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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 18th 2009, 02:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post
It's a term that I think should be changed... Like... For example. When I hear about how two girls "slept" together... It just makes me want to laugh. Because I think of how far they could actually go, and It's not that far. So when I hear marriage, thinking of two guys getting hitched in a church is just a little weird. There should just be another word for it. Maybe someone should create an environment for same sex marriages.
Your right, we need another word for it. While we're at it, how about different schools and separate drinking fountains?


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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 18th 2009, 04:42 AM

Quote:
See, I am always so confused by the idea of sacred. Does that mean valued? Why is marriage valued anyways?
That's what I'm getting at. It's not valued, or at least not as much as it used to be. It used to be a wonderful experience, like virginity...people consider virginity sacred because some men and women consider it special. Since divorce rates weren't as high as they are now, people would be getting married and mostly staying married. But now, just because you're married doesn't mean it's going to last for the rest of your life because you could just get a divorce and move on with your life. So I guess getting married used to be like a woman using her virginity...it was a special moment and a moment that you can't really relive again. There's no more "first time" after your first time. I guess that's what I mean by sacred.

And why is marriage valued? Why is marriage such a big deal to homosexuals when it's a "flawed institution"? Sure, I can understand that homosexuals should have the right to make their own choice, but I think that I should also have the choice without consequences of whether or not I want to go into the male or female bathroom.

Last edited by Brandon; November 18th 2009 at 04:48 AM.
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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 18th 2009, 04:57 AM

lol the same issues that might make marriage a flawed institution would also criticise genered toilets. It's basically feminist and queer theories.

And I mean, marriage feels like a big deal, because its a visible 'priveledge' given to one set of people and not others, and it is really visible. We all grow up in this world where you are going to grow up, get married, have kids. And even when by your very existance you challenge a lot of the norms of this society, its hard to cut all connections to it and the bind it has on you. So I guess it just makes marriage seem more pressing, even with the flaws in marriage, then the less visible inequalities.
   
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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 18th 2009, 10:12 AM

I think that marriage should be allowed for heterosexuals and homosexuals and that there should be a new name invented for religious marriages.

Personally, marriage is sacred to me because it is trusting my partner to stand up in front of those who are important to us and say they love me and want me in their life and that they want the important people in their life to acknowledge and witness this pledge. It's an important thing because maybe it's just me but I've had quite a few partners not introduce me to their friends as their partner or tell their parents about me either at all or until I was living with them and that actually hurt my pride.
   
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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 19th 2009, 01:46 PM

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Originally Posted by Double X View Post
I personally only see it for the monetary benefits. If the other rights and monetary benefits were stripped from marriage and marriage was just a title and nothing more, I wouldn't care the slightest. I just think it's silly that the government values heterosexual union but not homosexual union. And no one bring the crappy offspring argument, many heterosexuals marry with no intention of having kids.
This. I think you summed up most of what I had to say.

Although, perhaps just the word "marriage" is a heteronormative thing? The LGBT could come up with a unique word on it if they thought it was that big of an issue, to show that it isn't them conforming to "straight" lifestyle. Then they could still get the same monetary benefits that heterosexual couples get, but not be "conforming" to a kind of heteronotmative behavior.... But I don't really see it being that much of an issue that I'd lobby for such a thing.

Oh, and as an after thought. Do you think maybe marriage between two same-sex people should have some benefits that might specifically benefit them? Such as something to help them adopt easier/cheaper, in case they did want to raise children of their own?




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Re: Same sex marriage. A different debate. - November 19th 2009, 04:00 PM

If you are below a certain wealth level, marriage actually doesn't really aid you at all. The benefits are not universal. Also, apparently when civil partnerships in the UK were introduced (ok, not marriage, but I think it illustrates my point), apparently many same sex couples who previously got co-habitating benefits, no longer were allowed them, like the criteria got stricter, so many of them lost out. It also basically meant that in order to get a recognised relationship back, they would have to get a civil partnership.

I think it'd be inaccurate to suggest a word is the heteronormative issue. Particularly here. I don't personally believe marriage cannot be reformed or used in a broader, non-heteronormative way, but the impression I get from some, it's the institution, and the tradition.
   
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