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Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 05:10 AM

I realize someone in the religious forums mentioned some sort of jesus camp or event or along those lines. This isn't meant to be an insult to that nor christianity. I know you get especially touchy if children are harmed but watch these clips from a documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

Thoughts? Do you think it's child abuse? Opinions on the actual belief or religion?
   
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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 05:30 AM

Yeah, I saw a similar (or perhaps that very one) show on History or Discovery or something.. I think it's outrageous how they're brainwashing these children. If you surround yourself with strictly religious influence, you're not going to have a CLUE as to how to operate in the real world. These kids are doomed.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 05:33 AM

I feel it is a form of mental child abuse. It is brainwash, these kids don’t understand that this is a belief not absolute truth. Most of these kids are not old enough to even understand hypothetical situations let alone the idea of God. I think it is just terrible, and it breaks my heart to watch it.




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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 05:48 AM

I was saved at one of these "camps" Even though it wasn't as strict as "Jesus camp" and all the kids have to be at least 12/13 years old to go.

It's powerful, and used in the right way, changes peoples lives.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 05:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post

It's powerful, and used in the right way, changes peoples lives.
Changed as in brainwashed to believe something or have it forced on you, and whatever other opposing belief you may have bashed?
   
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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 06:04 AM

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Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
Changed as in brainwashed to believe something or have it forced on you, and whatever other opposing belief you may have bashed?
It brainwashes a lot of people if not used in the right way. The camp I go too is not so much of brainwashing, but a week where God will show you his power if you're willing to accept it.

Bash what you want, that's what I believe. I'll be waiting for your response.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 06:19 AM

I guess kids are there to be molded, right? I mean, we teach kids in schools not to be murderers. Is that brainwashing?

Bottom line: kids are really easily molded into believing things. Let's be really careful about what we're teaching them!!! YIKES! Scared me half to death.

Holly, it sounds like your camp is really really really different from the one depicted in Jesus Camp. I don't have any issues with a bunch of preteens/teens getting together an loving any god they want. It's different when there's one adult forcefully and angrily preaching that the world is really bad right now and the only way to fix it is to militantly love Jesus.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 06:26 AM

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Originally Posted by SillyEvee View Post
I guess kids are there to be molded, right? I mean, we teach kids in schools not to be murderers. Is that brainwashing?

Bottom line: kids are really easily molded into believing things. Let's be really careful about what we're teaching them!!! YIKES! Scared me half to death.

Holly, it sounds like your camp is really really really different from the one depicted in Jesus Camp. I don't have any issues with a bunch of preteens/teens getting together an loving any god they want. It's different when there's one adult forcefully and angrily preaching that the world is really bad right now and the only way to fix it is to militantly love Jesus.

Yes. Personally I've watched parts of Jesus Camp. The kids are WAY too young to experience any real belief besides sunday school preaching.

The camp I go to is to bring the teens to God of course, but kids come back from camp as they came. Some have come several times and still remain atheists/agnostic.

Then again, you get one that came back like me. Changed. When I went I was going through hell and needed to experience God the way I did.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 06:31 AM

I'm glad your camp was just what you needed. It sounds like a nice place.

I also wonder what these kids really believe. I mean, as kids, we all parrotted what our parents, teachers, etc. said, right? How many of us still believe that? I wonder if this is the kind of stuff these kids will "grow out of" or if there's something about this camp that'll get them to hold onto these beliefs?

This interview's pretty good, too. It's George Strombolopolous from The Hour. I dunno if he's a very good interviewer (he interrupts the filmmakers sometimes), but it's interesting.CBC Interview with "Jesus Camp" filmmakers


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 07:06 AM

This particular camp feels awfully cultist to me...


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 01:09 PM

I remember watching this a while back... Yeah it's disturbing... Haven't they closed donw that camp after this?


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 03:31 PM

Just to let you guys know, I was raised in this type of environment and I came out just fine, but yes I do consider this brainwashing.

These kids aren't all gonna grow up to be freaks....unless you consider me a freak ._. lol
   
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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 05:27 PM

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Originally Posted by SillyEvee View Post
I guess kids are there to be molded, right? I mean, we teach kids in schools not to be murderers. Is that brainwashing?
The difference is this moral is taught based on facts and also abiding the law, whereas there is no proof that Christianity is true. I'm not saying there's no way it is, I just personally don't believe in it. This guy tried to convert me once and he told me to ask God to give me a sign that he is real. So I did. God failed to prove his existence to me.

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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 06:02 PM

I'll give you a link to the video of the camp I went to once I can. I've been more than once, I loved it so much. I believe I've been to five or six. That's how amazing some of these are.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 06:11 PM

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Originally Posted by SillyEvee View Post
I guess kids are there to be molded, right? I mean, we teach kids in schools not to be murderers. Is that brainwashing?

Bottom line: kids are really easily molded into believing things. Let's be really careful about what we're teaching them!!! YIKES! Scared me half to death.

Holly, it sounds like your camp is really really really different from the one depicted in Jesus Camp. I don't have any issues with a bunch of preteens/teens getting together an loving any god they want. It's different when there's one adult forcefully and angrily preaching that the world is really bad right now and the only way to fix it is to militantly love Jesus.
No, it's not brainwashing as those are not only the legal laws but also they're morals, with evidence to back it up. There's one thing to be molded but another thing to have the beliefs forced upon them. Some of the kids in the video were in tears, I'm sure that wasn't due to them being so over joyed at being at such a brainwashing jesus camp, nor to have the lady say something about being an "army of god" or something along those lines.

If the preteens/teens went in a church or group to pray or to discuss their religious views without having anything forced upon them, just a talk for the hell of it, that I have no problem with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx
It brainwashes a lot of people if not used in the right way. The camp I go too is not so much of brainwashing, but a week where God will show you his power if you're willing to accept it.

Bash what you want, that's what I believe. I'll be waiting for your response.


Now I'm curious, not so much for bashing it, but how does God show you his power? Does he grant a wish, does some random event happen that sudden is attributed to the miracle of God? How does he show you his power?


   
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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 06:16 PM

Haven't found a link for the video but here's info about the camp from a website.

"Each year we host approximately 1,500 young people at our Easter and two Summer Camps. Of these, many are from foster care programs and the inner cities of California and are able to come because of our scholarship program. Along with exciting team activities, students are given a safe environment of hope and healing, and are presented with the Gospel in a culturally relevant style. In the past twenty-five years of camps, we have had the opportunity to minister to more than 20,000 students, many of which have been called into full-time ministry. Each camp season has brought with it reports of lives that have been transformed by the power of God. Today, after years of ministry through Radical Reality youth camps, we are delighted to see that our Camp Staff is made up largely of people who themselves were once students at camp!"

The crazy thing is.. I might be a counselor this year at the camp. I'm not sure if I'm going though.

The coolest thing, is that the ministry that puts on these camps is called Radical Reality. They also do feats of strength, like bend crowbars in their mouths, break bricks, rip phones books. It's all pretty awesome. The testimonies are amazing.. and thes speakers are real. Darwin Benjamin, one of the speakers, was into drugs. He got a girl pregnant, and because he did drugs, one of the baby girls he had was born inside out... Another guy, Joey Steelman, was homeless on the streets of Sacramento, California. His brother was in Pelican Bay Prison, and his father didn't do anything for him. He said the reason he started doing weights is because when he hit his dad, he wanted his dad to feel his pain.

Anyways, that's my two cents about the camps. I told you too much information, but I have a heart for them.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 06:29 PM

THAT video, is indeed, ridiculous. However, I've been to children's seminars that are absolutely nothing like that. Winterfest is a good example. Acquire the Fire is another good example.

But standing there telling children that Harry Potter would've been put to death in the old testament and also telling them, "Okay, now we're going to talk in tongues. Do it.", isn't how it's supposed to be.

That's why so many people get Christianity mixed up with something that it's not, because of people like that.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 06:32 PM

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THAT video, is indeed, ridiculous. However, I've been to children's seminars that are absolutely nothing like that. Winterfest is a good example. Acquire the Fire is another good example.

But standing there telling children that Harry Potter would've been put to death in the old testament and also telling them, "Okay, now we're going to talk in tongues. Do it.", isn't how it's supposed to be.

That's why so many people get Christianity mixed up with something that it's not, because of people like that.
I love Harry Potter/fantasy Burn me at the stake.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 09:13 PM

I personally think any sort of institution to teach religion to children is a vehicle of indoctrination, and I want any kind of religious indoctrination banned (including faith schools which promote any religion e.g. Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc.). So it follows that I want Jesus camps banned too.

I hate the idea of children having their minds filled with religion. There's absolutely no reason to teach a child religious beliefs because they can learn morality without them, and if they choose to be religious later on then they can. I don't see why a Jesus camp would be necessary, because one can learn what one needs to know about a religion from its scripture. If one wants to learn about Christianity, they should read the Bible and make their own mind up - they should not have to go to a camp which won't present the full picture of the religion anyway.

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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 09:27 PM

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I personally think any sort of institution to teach religion to children is a vehicle of indoctrination, and I want any kind of religious indoctrination banned (including faith schools which promote any religion e.g. Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc.). So it follows that I want Jesus camps banned too.

I hate the idea of children having their minds filled with religion. There's absolutely no reason to teach a child religious beliefs because they can learn morality without them, and if they choose to be religious later on then they can. I don't see why a Jesus camp would be necessary, because one can learn what one needs to know about a religion from its scripture. If one wants to learn about Christianity, they should read the Bible and make their own mind up - they should not have to go to a camp which won't present the full picture of the religion anyway.
For once I absolutely agree with you, A.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 11:30 PM

I watched about one minute of that before I was sick. At first I wanted to know what the big deal was. It started out like a normal church service to me, but then I hated how the children were told to pray in tongues. Yeah, they really know what they are saying. I always think that children should be able to chose whether or not they go to church. I was forced to go to church as a child and I hated it. I think it was because I went to a church where I had to wear a dress and pantyhose. What kids wants that stuff on for a couple of hours?

As I've gotten old, I've just never bothered to go back. I've explored other religions and appreciate it when they aren't shoved down my throat. It would be hell if I was put through something like those kids had to go through. I definitely think that most of them weren't old enough to chose for themselves and they were probably forced to go by their parents. It would turn me off from religion forever.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 11:31 PM

Quote:
I feel it is a form of mental child abuse. It is brainwash, these kids don’t understand that this is a belief not absolute truth. Most of these kids are not old enough to even understand hypothetical situations let alone the idea of God. I think it is just terrible, and it breaks my heart to watch it.
I actually often feel the same way about only teaching children scientific viewpoints. Sure, scientific theories have...well...scientific evidence to back them up. But how many young children in schools truly understand empirical truth and that science has been 'proven'? They don't; they're only taught that science is right. Isn't this brainwashing? Growing up, I was always taught to be skeptical and questioning of religious beliefs. But I was almost never taught to question what I learned in science class. I was taught to assume that if it's taught in the science lab, it must be right.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 11:38 PM

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I actually often feel the same way about only teaching children scientific viewpoints. Sure, scientific theories have...well...scientific evidence to back them up. But how many young children in schools truly understand empirical truth and that science has been 'proven'? They don't; they're only taught that science is right. Isn't this brainwashing? Growing up, I was always taught to be skeptical and questioning of religious beliefs. But I was almost never taught to question what I learned in science class. I was taught to assume that if it's taught in the science lab, it must be right.
It is well known that science isn't 100% correct, what makes the difference is that science is accurate. Scientific theories have evidence to back them up, but as we learn and grow as a race, new evidence is discovered that either expands on or discredits what is already known.

Skepticism is expected and actually a solid foundation of science. If we weren't skeptical on what we know, how could we expand on it or disprove it? Science may never be perfect, but it's accurate. Where religious beliefs should be taken with a spoonful of salt, science should be taken with a grain.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 11:51 PM

What I mean is, if we're going to criticize people teaching children things that the children can't possibly fully understand, then why isn't science up for attacking too?

Quote:
It is well known that science isn't 100% correct, what makes the difference is that science is accurate
Yes, that's known to adults. But as a tutor I can tell you that almost no children under the age of 10 realize that science can, in fact, sometimes be wrong.

I remember being in a university class once, and we were debating Darwin vs religion. Everyone was on the side of Darwin. The teacher asked why we were so quick to side with Darwin, and everyone replied that it was backed up by science. He asked how it was backed up; no one could provide any of the evidence for Darwin's theories. Everyone in the class had merely been taught that since it was a scientific theory, it must be right and religion must be wrong.

Now don't get me wrong, I fully believe Darwin, and am in no way religious. I just think it's odd that we criticize religions for indoctrinating their children, when it seem to me that we do the same thing in science class.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 11:53 PM

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What I mean is, if we're going to criticize people teaching children things that the children can't possibly fully understand, then why isn't science up for attacking too?



Yes, that's known to adults. But as a tutor I can tell you that almost no children under the age of 10 realize that science can, in fact, sometimes be wrong.
BAM. And here we go. Science has been officially brought up.



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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 18th 2009, 11:56 PM

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What I mean is, if we're going to criticize people teaching children things that the children can't possibly fully understand, then why isn't science up for attacking too?



Yes, that's known to adults. But as a tutor I can tell you that almost no children under the age of 10 realize that science can, in fact, sometimes be wrong.
What children learn in school about science doesn't change their lifestyle nor does it force absolute 'right or wrongs' on them when morals are something subjective to begin with. Science simply teaches children about the world around us and how it interacts with everything, including ourselves. I fail to see how teaching a child Biology is even close to similar to force feeding the child a religious doctrine.

I don't see where you're going with this, using your logic, we could drag anything at all into this. We may as well be talking about the structure of a motherboard and how it operates in a computer, just because children may not fully understand it doesn't make it relevant to this discussion.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 19th 2009, 12:04 AM

Just trying to pull an alternate viewpoint into the debate. Sometimes its good to question the majority opinion.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 19th 2009, 02:05 AM

True, the kids probably don't understand the fully empiricism of a certain scientific theory or viewpoint yet they are taught it. However, does it influence their life to such a large extent? Is it forced upon them by fear, that if they don't believe this theory, then they will be damned forever? Are they recruited to be an "army of science" to bring down the non-scientific believers? No, no and no. This video and such jesus camps like this, the answer is yes, yes and yes.

Also, a kid can walk out of a science class. They may get in trouble for doing so but they still can get up and leave. For this jesus camp video, I'd be amazed if that was even allowed.

Those are most of the differences I see between this jesus camp and teaching science.
   
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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 19th 2009, 02:35 AM

I loved the part where the mother raises the child's hand. I forget where it is, but I saw it the last time I viewed the image.

I believe the actual camp that Jesus Camp was filed at was shut down. They might have reopened or I could be wrong. I also remember the site had a list of prophets or something along those lines. These kids supposedly said or did something that predicted the future.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 19th 2009, 07:44 PM

The camp in that video is sick. That woman should be locked up or something. She's making the kids cry. And some of them are so young. They should close that place down. She's not making their lives better, she's telling them that by trying to fit in, they are sinning, and that they are bad people for that. And that rubbish about harry potter being a sinner, and how we shouldn't have wizards for heroes? I bet some of those kids wanted to be like harry potter. they probably wanted to be like him as a person, not as a magician, but as a person. there are kids in that video who look about seven or eight. And that women is standing there, telling them that they're bad people, and the they should repent, or they'll go to hell. How can she sleep at night? and this is after watching only the first five minutes of that video... it better get better...



having watched it all... I'm horrified that someone can do that to those poor kids. there was one, a blonde boy, who looked like he was gonna habe a nervous breakdown. And that little girl, purpley red form crying... how can they do that to her? more, how can they do that, and not be sinners themselves? that little girl at the end, I feel so sorry for her. She's been brainwashed into thinking that she doesn't have to fit in, as long as she's good enough to get into heaven. saying there is a god and a heaven... what good is spending her whole life an outcast in order to get into heaven gonna do? She won't have many friends out side of jesus camp, she'll struggle to find a husband, and if she has kids, she's just gonna impose those beliefs onto the child, and then her child will be as damaged as her. it's not fair. how can people do that?


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 19th 2009, 08:03 PM

UN.FUCKING.BELIEVABLE. I saw that DVD in the video store and it looked interesting but my mom was raised in devout religion so when she sees church services she gets nervous. For her sake, I'm glad we didn't rent it. If it makes me nervous, it would have made her puke.

Those poor children are being brainwashed, and being used to brainwash other people.

I'd love to walk into their church shouting, "The power of Dumbledore compels you! The power of Dumbledore compels you!" And see what happens. xD


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 19th 2009, 10:05 PM

now I don't hate christians personally..it's just that the whole
"I allow god to speak for me" thing...it just makes us seem like puppets. Well that's my opinion...and that anti-warlock thing...give childrena chance to think for themselves! Talk about your anti-imagination thing right there...


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Originally Posted by Lorelei View Post
I'd love to walk into their church shouting, "The power of Dumbledore compels you! The power of Dumbledore compels you!" And see what happens. xD
But that....that was hilarious...i need to try this..
   
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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 19th 2009, 10:28 PM

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But that....that was hilarious...i need to try this..
Better yet: show up in full wizard garb, brandishing a stick. Hehehehe...


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 20th 2009, 06:37 AM

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The crazy thing is.. I might be a counselor this year at the camp. I'm not sure if I'm going though.

The coolest thing, is that the ministry that puts on these camps is called Radical Reality. They also do feats of strength, like bend crowbars in their mouths, break bricks, rip phones books. It's all pretty awesome. The testimonies are amazing.. and thes speakers are real. Darwin Benjamin, one of the speakers, was into drugs. He got a girl pregnant, and because he did drugs, one of the baby girls he had was born inside out... Another guy, Joey Steelman, was homeless on the streets of Sacramento, California. His brother was in Pelican Bay Prison, and his father didn't do anything for him. He said the reason he started doing weights is because when he hit his dad, he wanted his dad to feel his pain.

Anyways, that's my two cents about the camps. I told you too much information, but I have a heart for them.
Okay, first off what do you mean by the "baby was born inside out"? Do you mean that it had it's muscles on the outside and it's skin on the inside? Because i Have never heard of such a thing and have never heard of drugs causing it. I don't know of any drug that can cause such intense chromosomal damage to a man's sperm as to cause a baby to be born "inside out". Maybe the mother had a rare condition or something?
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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 20th 2009, 06:55 AM

I am a serious Catholic - I wear my Cross proudly, go to Church every Sunday, participate in Youth Group, teach 3rd grade CCD, and am involved with a orginazation for teens about a half hour where I live - and I myself, am horrified by this video. While camps like this are amazing, they should be practiced on the correct age group and by people who are educated and know what to do and how to act around children. In my opinion, those children are too young to understand, and that woman does not know what she is talking about nor does she know how to talk to those kids.

Like Holly, I was saved by one of these camps. One week there, and I was changed from someone just going through the motions of being a Catholic to actually being one. And I don't believe in forcing your religion on anyone, and that's not what happened to me. God came to me where I was just when I needed him to, and for that I am thankful. I do think, however, that when no practiced correctly and when used the wrong way, these "camps" are not the best of things.

I also agree with Chelsey; that is the reason that people judge Christians and Catholics. At my school, I'm called a "Jesus Freak" because no one stops to understand. No, because that would be too difficult, so everyone just judges. And that's why the world is so messed up.

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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 20th 2009, 07:44 AM

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Okay, first off what do you mean by the "baby was born inside out"? Do you mean that it had it's muscles on the outside and it's skin on the inside? Because i Have never heard of such a thing and have never heard of drugs causing it. I don't know of any drug that can cause such intense chromosomal damage to a man's sperm as to cause a baby to be born "inside out". Maybe the mother had a rare condition or something?
Well, I looked briefly in the mutants book for our genetic course and I didn't see anything. i know of spinal bifida (muscular bifida may exist, no idea). As for drugs, I know spinal bifida can be caused but not muscular bifida (assuming that exists).
   
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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 20th 2009, 02:19 PM

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Well, I looked briefly in the mutants book for our genetic course and I didn't see anything. i know of spinal bifida (muscular bifida may exist, no idea). As for drugs, I know spinal bifida can be caused but not muscular bifida (assuming that exists).
The only thing hat even remotely sounds like that is harlequin syndrome, which isn't drug related, and doesn't involve the infant being born inside out.

Though I have to warn you, if you are squeamish, DO NOT LOOK UP HARLEQUIN SYNDROME! BAD THINGS!


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 21st 2009, 06:21 AM

The parts which disturbed me were the cup breaking scenes and when the woman began chanting "this means war." I'm preeeetttyyy sure Jesus is anti-war, folks.

Most of those children are just too young. :[



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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 21st 2009, 03:01 PM

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The parts which disturbed me were the cup breaking scenes and when the woman began chanting "this means war." I'm preeeetttyyy sure Jesus is anti-war, folks.

Most of those children are just too young. :[
Jesus is anti-war? Have you read Revelations? If the bible is to be believed, Jesus is coming back to kill all but 144 000 of us. All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him (1:7). Or my personal favourite from Matthew, 10:34 - Think not that I [Jesus] am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword.

But back to the main point, the footage from this camp rather frightens me.


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Re: Jesus camp, thoughts? - February 21st 2009, 11:31 PM

lol its funny because in my upbringing stuff like that is commonplace to me and I don't get the shock horror reaction like all you?

No its not child abuse and its not brain washing, I mean they are just saying what they believe, none of the children are forced to take part, simply encouraged.
One of the things you have all expressed disgust about is the fact that she brought the kids to tears... the tears they were witnessing were not tears of pain? or guilt... or any of that. the basic concept is that they are so overcome with emotion after experiencing the holy power of god that they are brought to tears... its not a unpleasant emotion.

With the comments that they are being told they shouldn't fit in and this would basically make life very difficult... are you saying that kids who are different should be told to change what they believe in what they think and what they like to fit in?

The kids know there is alternative views, and trust me when they grow into teens they usually make a choice despite what they was brought up like (like myself I am a hardcore atheist despite going through all these having many epiphanic experiences with the holy spirit and speaking in tongues)

All I am saying is don't demonize them from a really quite biased video, its not as cult-like as it looks. what you see them experiencing is actually quite emotionally refreshing. With the harry potter books I think that Christianity can be a bit overboard with that, I remember when i was at a camp they had told us that pokemon was based on religious characters in some asian tribe and so therefore told us not to get them... well the youth from our church were outraged, we got our parents to complain!
god that wa swhen we was like.. 10 11 12... ha.

Besides Christians are under the impression that children are more open to god than adults, a passage where jesus says we ar eall children under the eyes of god... so they beliee that children are just as if not more likely to experinece god.

so yeah... and remember im atheisttt
   
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