TeenHelp
Support Forums Today's Posts

Get Advice Connect with TeenHelp Resources
HelpLINK Facebook     Twitter     Tumblr     Instagram    Hotlines    Safety Zone    Alternatives

You are not registered or have not logged in

Hello guest! (Not a guest? Log in above!)

As a guest on TeenHelp you are only able to use some of our site's features. By registering an account you will be able to enjoy unlimited access to our site, and will be able to:

  • Connect with thousands of teenagers worldwide by actively taking part in our Support Forums and Chat Room.
  • Find others with similar interests in our Social Groups.
  • Express yourself through our Blogs, Picture Albums and User Profiles.
  • And much much more!

Signing up is free, anonymous and will only take a few moments, so click here to register now!


Current Events and Debates For discussions and friendly debates about politics and current events, check out this forum.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  (#1 (permalink)) Old
Magic. Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
Magic.'s Avatar
 
Name: Poppy
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Location: Brisbane

Posts: 1,441
Join Date: January 16th 2009

Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 10th 2011, 09:16 PM

This thread has been labeled as triggering by the original poster or by a Moderator. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

I saw a facebook poll the other day that a lot of my friends have been answering. It asks this:
In Australia, if a pregnant woman is involved in a car accident because of a drunk driver and her unborn baby dies, the drunk driver will not be charged with the baby's death, just because it is not "breathing". If a pregnant woman is assaulted and the baby dies, the person that assaulted her will be charged with her assault, but not with the baby's death. Do you think there should be a law protecting unborn babies in Australia??

The answers available are: Definately; No it's not neccessary; They should at least be considered; and I don't know.


I was just wondering what people on here thought?


Personally I think that the life of unborn children should be a concern in these situations. A life has been lost. A life that the mother had chosen to create, or at least keep. I think the life of a child should be the mothers choice to control, and so any actions of another person that affect that life should be at least considered in any fatal situations. If they hadn't commited the actions they did, the baby would (most likely) have been born and had a life.


You can't move mountains by whispering at them.

Take a look at my art here:
http://attemptedart.tumblr.com/
   
  (#2 (permalink)) Old
Daivia Offline
Why Hussie? Why?
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Daivia's Avatar
 
Name: Maeve
Age: 25
Gender: Female
Location: The Peach State

Posts: 878
Blog Entries: 13
Join Date: July 30th 2011

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 10th 2011, 09:26 PM

Hmm, this is a tough one. Yes, a "life" has been lost. But if a woman went skydiving or got drunk or did something equally dangerous towards her unborn "child" then would she be committing manslaughter/murder?

I guess I don't know.
   
  (#3 (permalink)) Old
Voldermorts Stalker
I can't get enough
*********
 
WhisperingSilence's Avatar
 
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Location: where ever the coffee is

Posts: 3,466
Blog Entries: 1474
Join Date: January 6th 2009

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 10th 2011, 09:54 PM

Hmm I would say it depends on the circumstances, and it depends how you look at it. But if this law was put in place surely then abortion would become illegal ? But then people say that abortion is murder as you are killing a growing baby. I guess that could be the same with if a woman gets attacked and loses her baby ect the person who attacked the woman has therefore killed a growing baby. Like I said It really does depend on how you view the circumstances and the situation and the other factors.



BADGER BADGER BADGER.........MUSHROOM!!!
Videos team
, articles team and helplink mentor and associate live help operator.
   
  (#4 (permalink)) Old
Heretic Offline
The Architect
I've been here a while
********
 
Heretic's Avatar
 
Name: [060191.1723]
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: 43.337557, -89.638498

Posts: 1,695
Blog Entries: 9
Join Date: January 6th 2009

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 11th 2011, 04:24 AM

Begin the slippery slope arguments.


Ethos
Pathos
Logos

050516.0029
  Send a message via MSN to Heretic  
1 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
  (#5 (permalink)) Old
Magic. Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
Magic.'s Avatar
 
Name: Poppy
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Location: Brisbane

Posts: 1,441
Join Date: January 16th 2009

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 11th 2011, 07:37 AM

I know it's a slippery slope . I myself can think of situations where I think the person should be charged, but others where I don't think they should. But I do think that the loss should be considered, because in some (admittedly very few) cases the attacker may deliberately trying too cause the loss etc etc.
I just found the whole debate interesting and wondered how others would react. Most of the people I know think it's completely uneccessary in all situations ...


You can't move mountains by whispering at them.

Take a look at my art here:
http://attemptedart.tumblr.com/
   
  (#6 (permalink)) Old
Marguerite Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
Marguerite's Avatar
 
Name: Marguerite
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: Australia

Posts: 1,064
Blog Entries: 2
Join Date: June 1st 2010

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 11th 2011, 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil View Post
Begin the slippery slope arguments.
It's not even a slippery slope argument. It's pretty upfront. It's not saying, oh, if you do this, it will lead to this. It's saying if you call the death of an unborn baby murder, well, it's murder.

It would be completely illogical to call this murder and then allow people to have abortions.

I feel for anyone this has happened too. A close family member had two miscarriages earlier this year and I can say that is was not the same experience as the people I've known who have had abortions. It's because one, while hard, is something that is chosen as the best option availible at the time, and the other is something you've gotten emotionally attached too, something you've imagined and hoped for and maybe even named.

But the law can't opperate on 'it's murder, depending on how much you care about your unborn child.' That leaves all kinds of contradictions and impossible quandaries, like, what if someone shoots a pregnant woman in the stomach the day before she has an abortion preformed? And, of course, abortion itself.


To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget

~Arundhati Roy
   
2 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
  (#7 (permalink)) Old
Magic. Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
Magic.'s Avatar
 
Name: Poppy
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Location: Brisbane

Posts: 1,441
Join Date: January 16th 2009

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 11th 2011, 07:54 AM

See I agree with that, but then ... say someone has a car accident that isn't their fault, maybe caused by a medical problem like a stroke, which causes a woman to lose her baby. I don't think that should be charged. It wouldn't be intentional, it wouldn't technically even be "death by dangerous driving" because they weren't just being stupid/drunk ...
But yes pretty much every other circumstance I think the baby's life should be considered and any loss or damage charged as if they were any other human.


You can't move mountains by whispering at them.

Take a look at my art here:
http://attemptedart.tumblr.com/
   
  (#8 (permalink)) Old
Marguerite Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
Marguerite's Avatar
 
Name: Marguerite
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: Australia

Posts: 1,064
Blog Entries: 2
Join Date: June 1st 2010

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 11th 2011, 09:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic. View Post
See I agree with that, but then ... say someone has a car accident that isn't their fault, maybe caused by a medical problem like a stroke, which causes a woman to lose her baby. I don't think that should be charged. It wouldn't be intentional, it wouldn't technically even be "death by dangerous driving" because they weren't just being stupid/drunk ...
But yes pretty much every other circumstance I think the baby's life should be considered and any loss or damage charged as if they were any other human.
But again, how can you justify intentional death of an unborn baby in one circumstances murder, and abortion (i.e intentional death of an unborn baby) not murder?


To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget

~Arundhati Roy
   
  (#9 (permalink)) Old
Harmony♥ Offline
Proud Military Girlfriend
Jeez, get a life!
***********
 
Harmony♥'s Avatar
 
Name: Shannon
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Location: IRAW!

Posts: 5,741
Blog Entries: 11
Join Date: March 31st 2010

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 11th 2011, 03:05 PM

I don't know how true this is, and if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me, but in the states, people can be charged with the murder/assault/whatever the circumstance may be of an unborn child. I've seen it used on the news and on TV shows.

Now, though I've heard it used before, I don't really know what to answer here. Coming from an up-coming aunt (my niece is due in February), I'd be devastated and would expect legal action to be taken if someone injured or killed my sister's unborn child (and of course, if they did anything to my wonderful sister!). I'm just a little conflicted, I suppose. I guess my answer right now is going to be 'I don't know' with leaning more towards yes, if this makes sense to anyone!











I may wear the glass slippers; But my hero wears combat boots <3 I love you, Lieutenant




HelpLink Mentor 6/13/2011
Pregnancy & Childcare Moderator 11/26/2011
Fashion & Style Moderator 12/28/2011
Social Groups Moderator 12/28/2011
  Send a message via AIM to Harmony♥  
  (#10 (permalink)) Old
Snufkin Offline
XO
I've been here a while
********
 
Snufkin's Avatar
 
Name: Scott
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Glasgow

Posts: 1,982
Blog Entries: 104
Join Date: January 17th 2009

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 11th 2011, 04:55 PM

The law in Scotland states that you are alive once you draw your first breath, and I pretty much go with that. If a woman is involved in a car crash where it's the other driver's fault that she loses her child, sure, charge him for something, but don't make it murder or manslaughter.




   
  (#11 (permalink)) Old
Stargazed. Offline
Outside, huh?
**********
 
Stargazed.'s Avatar
 

Posts: 3,532
Join Date: October 3rd 2010

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 11th 2011, 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelophobia View Post
I don't know how true this is, and if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me, but in the states, people can be charged with the murder/assault/whatever the circumstance may be of an unborn child. I've seen it used on the news and on TV shows.

Now, though I've heard it used before, I don't really know what to answer here. Coming from an up-coming aunt (my niece is due in February), I'd be devastated and would expect legal action to be taken if someone injured or killed my sister's unborn child (and of course, if they did anything to my wonderful sister!). I'm just a little conflicted, I suppose. I guess my answer right now is going to be 'I don't know' with leaning more towards yes, if this makes sense to anyone!
This. I heard a story about a month or two ago in my town saying that a man was charged with murder. He beat his pregnant girlfriend to death. SOOO, here it is a law. I think it's important to protect the unborn. If someone intentionally does something to kill an unborn baby, then something needs to be done legally. However, if it was an accident.. I don't know. I think it should be "forgiven" because surely they didn't mean for something so terrible to happen and people get away with accidents everyday. I don't know. I'm a little biased too because I have about 5 pregnant ladies in my family and if anything happened to them or their unborn baby, I'd be devastated.
   
  (#12 (permalink)) Old
Magic. Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
Magic.'s Avatar
 
Name: Poppy
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Location: Brisbane

Posts: 1,441
Join Date: January 16th 2009

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 11th 2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
But again, how can you justify intentional death of an unborn baby in one circumstances murder, and abortion (i.e intentional death of an unborn baby) not murder?
I'm answering this from my personal, pro choice point of view. I believe that abortion should be legal, and that the life of the baby should lay in the mothers hands, up until the 24 week cut off (or however long depending on where you live), after that the babies life cannot legally be altered by anyone including the mother.
I guess I see it as similar to suicide. Our own lives are in our control. If a person chooses to commit suicide it is not punished, and by that I mean those who survive the attempt. They are given help, but not punished by law. A mother who holds the control of the life of her baby can legally control it for those first 24 weeks, noone else can.
So with that in mind, I still think abortion is acceptable up until the legal limit. But if someone else intentionally or through an irresponsible accident ends the life of an unborn child, it should be considered as murder or manslaughter.


You can't move mountains by whispering at them.

Take a look at my art here:
http://attemptedart.tumblr.com/
   
1 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
  (#13 (permalink)) Old
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
ShimmeringFaerie's Avatar
 
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Location: Australia

Posts: 1,990
Join Date: March 22nd 2010

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 12th 2011, 04:03 AM

Well, according to Cleo (I know, but let's assume their facts are right), the cut-off between a miscarriage and a stillbirth is 20 weeks. If a baby is stillborn, then it is registered as a birth. So in my mind, there should be legal protection for unborn babies after 20 weeks.

I am pro-choice and I would never want to take away a woman's right to an abortion, but I think having the cut-off date for abortions be the date that unborn babies are legally protected would make sense. Obviously, there would have to be a loophole for special circumstances, like if carrying to full-term would risk the mother's life. I also think there would need to be some protection for mothers; a lot of women lose their babies after 20 weeks for no known reason and I think it would be wrong to prosecute them. But there are cases where partners/family members have beaten a pregnant woman and caused her to lose the baby, and I really think there needs to be some justice for them.



PM me!

Dreaming about the day
When you wake up and find
That what you're looking for
Has been here the whole time.
   
  (#14 (permalink)) Old
Visionary
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
~Mr. Self Destruct~'s Avatar
 
Name: Matt
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Location: Australia

Posts: 639
Blog Entries: 8
Join Date: June 16th 2010

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 12th 2011, 06:11 AM

The reason this law is in place is because the only way you can commit murder is if you kill a human being (a LEGALLY defined human being).
As unborn children are not considered people in the eyes of the law, no they aren't considered.
Personally I'd have to agree, because unborn children cannot be considered individuals in a legal system due to their innability to act on their own accord or at all.
I'm not certain, but I do think damages can be sought via civil suits.


One million miles away...
   
  (#15 (permalink)) Old
FlyingTrue Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
FlyingTrue's Avatar
 
Age: 27
Gender: Male
Location: United States (FL)

Posts: 1,048
Join Date: March 31st 2010

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 12th 2011, 08:03 AM

I think the proper layout of the law in these types of circumstances should be:

In the case of the death or miscarriage of an unborn child as a result of an illegal action, where the victim's intention was to continue the pregnancy with the purpose of bearing and birthing of the child and the primary cause of the depravity of the life of the child was the result of a wrongful intervention, an unforeseen and unwarranted criminal act which directly or indirectly created a condition which caused irreparable harm to the fetus that has resulted in or will result in a failure of the pregnancy, such act should be considered as defined under the classification of first degree murder.
  Send a message via Skype™ to FlyingTrue 
  (#16 (permalink)) Old
Stupidity Kills
Outside, huh?
**********
 
OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!'s Avatar
 

Posts: 4,500
Blog Entries: 10
Join Date: December 19th 2009

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 12th 2011, 08:31 AM

Fetuses are living human beings but they are not people as they have no chance of interacting in society and have no social or legal responsibilities. Hence, they're not covered under the law, they have the same status as a dog. If someone is driving and they get into an accident causing the dog to die because it flew out the window, the dog would have the same legal status as a fetus. So, there should be legal protection but it should view the fetus as a non-human animal, not privy to the legal status of humans who are deemed people.

If the mother loses her pregnancy, depending on the situation, the person should pay her medical damages and could be brought to civil court.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingTrue
In the case of the death or miscarriage of an unborn child as a result of an illegal action, where the victim's intention was to continue the pregnancy with the purpose of bearing and birthing of the child and the primary cause of the depravity of the life of the child was the result of a wrongful intervention, an unforeseen and unwarranted criminal act which directly or indirectly created a condition which caused irreparable harm to the fetus that has resulted in or will result in a failure of the pregnancy, such act should be considered as defined under the classification of first degree murder.
First-degree murder requires planned action that results in the death, yet you stated if the act was unintentional, then it's still first-degree murder, even though if the victim was an adult it would likely be 3rd degree murder or manslaughter. That's like saying if I'm playing baseball, hit a home-run and the baseball flies off somewhere, hitting a pregnant woman, causing her fetus to be damaged resulting in death, then I'm guilty of first-degree murder. That doesn't make any sense. If I waited for her to go somewhere and take batting practice on her belly, then I can see your point of first-degree murder but that isn't unforeseen or unintentional.

However, what if the mother did something that resulted in the death of the baby? For example, she was carrying laundry down the stairs but took a tumble and the fetus became a human pinata as well as dead. Should she be charged with any crime? Practically it seems silly but the proposed legal definition suggests otherwise.


I can rip you off, and steal all your cash, suckerpunch you in the face, stand back and laugh. Leave you stranded as fast as a heart-attack.
- Danko Jones (I Think Bad Thoughts)
   
3 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
  (#17 (permalink)) Old
FlyingTrue Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
FlyingTrue's Avatar
 
Age: 27
Gender: Male
Location: United States (FL)

Posts: 1,048
Join Date: March 31st 2010

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 13th 2011, 03:29 PM

What I mean is that, for example, a pregnant woman is robbed at gunpoint and as a result has a miscarriage. The robber did not have the intention of killing the child but to steal money, but since it was his action that caused the miscarriage, he should be charged with murder.

I referred specifically to an illegal criminal action as being the cause.
  Send a message via Skype™ to FlyingTrue 
  (#18 (permalink)) Old
Visionary
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
~Mr. Self Destruct~'s Avatar
 
Name: Matt
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Location: Australia

Posts: 639
Blog Entries: 8
Join Date: June 16th 2010

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 14th 2011, 04:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingTrue View Post
What I mean is that, for example, a pregnant woman is robbed at gunpoint and as a result has a miscarriage. The robber did not have the intention of killing the child but to steal money, but since it was his action that caused the miscarriage, he should be charged with murder.

I referred specifically to an illegal criminal action as being the cause.
There was no malice aforethought, therefore, no it was not murder.
"Manslaughter" seems to qualify for the charge you're dicussing. And even then, you'd have to redefine "person" in legal terms, something which would make a fetus legally reponsible. That obviously does not work pragmatically, or even perhaps theoretically.


One million miles away...
   
  (#19 (permalink)) Old
Stupidity Kills
Outside, huh?
**********
 
OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!'s Avatar
 

Posts: 4,500
Blog Entries: 10
Join Date: December 19th 2009

Re: Legal protection of unborn babies. - November 16th 2011, 04:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingTrue View Post
What I mean is that, for example, a pregnant woman is robbed at gunpoint and as a result has a miscarriage. The robber did not have the intention of killing the child but to steal money, but since it was his action that caused the miscarriage, he should be charged with murder.
Fair enough, although to be more specific, I'd support charging him with manslaughter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingTrue
I referred specifically to an illegal criminal action as being the cause.
If the mother were to, say, get high on cocaine and drunk from alcohol, then drive a car, resulting in her crashing into someone else, your definition states she should be charged with first-degree murder since it was an illegal action that was unforeseen.


I can rip you off, and steal all your cash, suckerpunch you in the face, stand back and laugh. Leave you stranded as fast as a heart-attack.
- Danko Jones (I Think Bad Thoughts)
   
3 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
babies, legal, protection, unborn

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All material copyright 1998-2019, TeenHelp.
Terms | Legal | Privacy | Conduct | Complaints

Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000-2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search engine optimization by vBSEO.
Theme developed in association with vBStyles.