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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 12:21 AM

I am not going against people just for being atheists, don't get me wrong but at the end of the day, not having a religion doesn't make it right to make fun of other people's religious beliefs and core religious figures.

I am not Christian, I am Muslim, but at the end of the day, I don't go around making fun of Jesus, sporting "Slutty Jesus" Halloween costumes and disrespecting their ideals, because even though that's something I don't agree with or believe in, that's against my religion and wrong on an ethical level as well.

I don't go preaching Islam either because it defeats the purpose. If you're an atheist or know someone who is, can you answer this?

How come atheists think it's right to attack people who aren't and their religion? You believe what you do, but don't make fun of people who don't.

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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 12:35 AM

Atheists are not the sole group that does that. People in all religions have the potential to be disrespectful. Saying "behavior of atheists" implies that atheists are the only group that does this. A better title would have been "Making fun of other religions" as a variety of people will make fun of people's religions such as people who decide to depict the Islamic prophet in a cartoon format just to incite Muslims because it is not allowed.
   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 03:27 AM

The same reason certain Muslim groups use women and children as bombs.

But really, people do shitty things because the human race is shitty. Don't pretend like you're excluded or more ethical than others because you have religion. And don't hide behind the face of religion as if it gives you moral superiority. There have been plenty of atrocities committed in the name of religion. Much more harmful atrocities than someone dressing up in a slutty Jesus costume, or calling you a terrorist for being Muslim. As long as there are people in this world, there will always be those who think they are superior or know the "truth" and criticize those who don't know it.

Anyways, let's not be self-righteous.

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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 04:10 AM

I agree with the two other posters.
Generalization is indeed bullshit.
Your existence has proved that not all Muslims bomb buildings.
And my existence proves that not all atheists disrespect other religious ideals.


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 04:13 AM

Often it's a push against the reactionary influence of religion in contemporary society.
Atheists don't justify gender segregation, the condemnation of homosexuals or the outlawing of abortion on the grounds that a "sacred" text calls for it.
I can understand the frustration and offence derived from ridiculing traditions, but it's a far more benign assuaging of frustration than stoning apostates, in my opinion.
I don't do it myself, either. And I know many ago don't. Let's not generalise.
Plus, you know, we do have the right in most secular democracies.


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 08:20 AM

I'm an atheist, and I do not go around laughing at and making fun of other religions.

I know plenty of religious people who denounce atheists and devil worshipers and worse.

I know plenty of religious people who use relgion as an excuse to start wars, which most of our histroical wars have been over. World war (whichever one it was) was about Hitler destroying the Jews for example.

No one religious group can say that their religion has not looked at another faith and felt superiour and tried to do something about it.
Not individual people, but groups of people.

Sorry for my lame spelling today.. lol

and I am also good friends with a few muslims - no issues so far.. I just get curious about the burka - head scarf lol


My spelling is terrible, so I'm sorry for any spelling mistakes in my posts

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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 01:31 PM

Oh guys, stop accusing him of all the crimes of a select few Muslims. Be nice. He was not being self-righteous: He was simply bringing to light problems he sees within the atheist culture. Note that first sentence: "I am not going against people just for being atheists".

Read. Understand. Calm down before you reply, or risk making fools of yourselves and reaffirming his idea of what non-Abrahamic people are.


It isn't fair, also, to say that this is just a "push back" from people who have been oppressed by Abrahamic religions. By "pushing back," atheists are sinking to the same level of the Abrahamic religions that they left. They argue amongst themselves, mock people for being Christians or Muslims or Jews, and think they're superior to other religious people, simply because they choose to believe differently - or rather, not to believe altogether.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Pay attention to what you're saying, folks. "Because we are oppressed, we will oppress. Because we are judged, we will judge. Because we are hated, we will hate." Wouldn't that simply spin more hatred between the two groups? Isn't the whole purpose of being an atheist to be more open-minded than those of the Abrahamic religions? By insulting those who follow God or Allah or Christ, you are following in those same footsteps of the closed-minded people who drove you from the religions in the first place.

Until you begin to forgive, to understand, and to see where the other group is coming from - even if you don't agree - you will never be free of your hatred. You haven't let go of closed-mindedness: You're simply judging from the atheist point of view, rather than from the Abrahamic point of view. You have morphed your hatred and directed it against another group, not rid yourself of it completely. You are just as closed-minded as some of those generalizing religious people which you pass judgment on every time you see people loving their beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmergencyHugMaster View Post
I am not going against people just for being atheists, don't get me wrong but at the end of the day, not having a religion doesn't make it right to make fun of other people's religious beliefs and core religious figures.

I am not Christian, I am Muslim, but at the end of the day, I don't go around making fun of Jesus, sporting "Slutty Jesus" Halloween costumes and disrespecting their ideals, because even though that's something I don't agree with or believe in, that's against my religion and wrong on an ethical level as well.

I don't go preaching Islam either because it defeats the purpose. If you're an atheist or know someone who is, can you answer this?

How come atheists think it's right to attack people who aren't and their religion? You believe what you do, but don't make fun of people who don't.

OK?
OK.
You're being perfectly reasonable by asking people not to do this. I don't think people will change, but I also feel this frustration... I'm not a Christian, a Muslim, an agnostic, or an atheist, but my family is Christian. It offends me to see people deliberately insulting Christ and his followers, for my parents' sake. It offends me, also, to see people bringing up the crimes of others in your religion and judging you by those generalizations. You are very wise to be as open-minded as you are, but realize that we cannot change anything... The world had always been at odds according to its varying religious beliefs. Ranting is good, though: It gets some of that helpless, frustrated feeling out of your system.

It'll be fine. Just let the atheists go on judging. They need to accuse and to criticize and to mock to hold onto their unbelief; if they truly didn't believe, they would stop trying to disprove religion to themselves and everyone around them. It's themselves they are hurting through their rudeness, and it can only hurt you if you allow it to.


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 02:43 PM

I would like to clarify something. If one makes a claim about reality, and they try to convince me that it is the truth, I will address those claims with the same amount of scrutiny as I would with any claim.

There have even been times when I've said, "That view is ridiculous" in response to a claim about the universe or reality. This isn't the same as making fun of ones' views. It's just "ridiculous" to expect me to accept such claims without evidence.

Will I judge people for holding the views that they have? Well, yeah, sometimes I will. For example, if somebody said, "all gay people deserve to die and be tortured for all eternity", I would be personally offended. I'd feel sorry for that person for being brainwashed into believing that gay people are bad.

I think when it comes down to it there is a lot of perceived persecution from people that simply isn't there. This isn't limited to claims involving religious belief either. People that claim to be psychics, homeopaths, magicians and even scientists should realize that if they make a claim about reality, there will be people that want evidence. Asking for this evidence or analysing a specific truth-claim is not making fun of somebody.

However, I will admit that there are a lot of people that are just plain jerks. I'm not going to say that there are general groups of people that tend to be worse than others, because that would make me a jerk.
   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 03:31 PM

Okay, here goes: I am a Humanist, and I see no problem in challenging people's beliefs. Why should people not have to justify their beliefs?
I don't like stereotyping, but if we take as an example the idea of 6 day Creation: I find that absurd, and I will laugh at such an idea. If that offends someone, so what? Get on with life. Ignore it. I'm probably joking about.

One thing I would say: I will never attack someone solely for their beliefs. I will attack beliefs, like the idea that the LGBT community should not have their rights met. I will even openly criticise people for actions they take because of their religious beliefs, but never because they believe something.

So, the reason Atheists might laugh at a belief is that they find it funny, absurd that anyone might actually believe it. The reason an Atheist might criticise a belief or something someone does is because they find it immoral or ignorant.
And, frankly, I find creating humorous (and sorry if they're 'offensive,' but they aren't intended to truly upset people) images a damn sight nicer than beliveing the rest of humanity is inferior and will burn in Hell.

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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 03:56 PM

I think this quote from Rowan Atkinson basically sums up my opinions on the matter :

Quote:
To criticize a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous, but to criticize their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom. The freedom to criticize ideas, any ideas - even if they are sincerely held beliefs - is one of the fundamental freedoms of society. A law which attempts to say you can criticize and ridicule ideas as long as they are not religious ideas is a very peculiar law indeed.
(not intending to bring racism into this particular debate but the quote was in reference to a bill on racial and religious hate back in 2004)

I basically agree with him, I find religion silly and illogical and if somebody asks me my opinion on it that's what I'll say. I wouldn't go out of my way to ridicule a religion or a person but depending on the situation I'm not going to just hold my tongue in order to avoid offending somebody and even then I wouldn't intentionally be rude to them.

But yeah, I agree with the above posters saying that this is a big old generalisation.


   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 13th 2013, 09:15 PM

There are some people that I have seen do that whom are atheists (including one of my uncles), but I can tell you that as a whole, one person can't represent a whole group. That's like saying that one male pedophile makes all men pedophiles. Does that make sense when it comes down to generalization? Prejudice is wrong. People can believe in whatever religion they want. Just don't think that if one person does something, the group they belong to also do it as well.


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 14th 2013, 01:57 AM

[quote=SouthernBelle.;1079422]Oh guys, stop accusing him of all the crimes of a select few Muslims. Be nice. He was not being self-righteous: He was simply bringing to light problems he sees within the atheist culture. Note that first sentence: "I am not going against people just for being atheists".

Assuming this was, in part, directed towards me, perhaps you should take your own advice:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelle. View Post
Read. Understand. Calm down before you reply, or risk making [ a ] fool of [ yourself ]
The first part of my response was clearly sarcasm, hence the:

Quote:
But really,
in the following paragraph.

As far as being self-righteous, using the "define:" search on Google, I get this definition: "having or characterized by a certainty, esp. an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior."

The OP is certain their views on particular individuals are unbiased. The OP believes having a lack of religion or those who don't adhere to his ethical code of conduct, that people who mock particular beliefs are unethical.

I wouldn't define mockery as being an "attack" against religion, either. That's non-sense. That's a harsh term for an innocent jest. Sure, it might be offensive, a lot of things are. It doesn't give the right to demand censorship. I don't like certain aspects of religion. I don't care to read Church signs condemning me to Hell, or signs that say things like, "You think it's hot now, just wait till you're in Hell." Or signs that claim they know the truth, etc. while I'm deceived. But, guess what? I don't ask them to censor it. Or, hey, how about Sharia Law?

The world is a shitty place filled with shitty people who do shitty things. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can laugh at ourselves. Laugh at your religion, laugh at your atheism, laugh at your agnosticism. If your god is forgiving, then perhaps you should be as well. Look past it. Move on. It's not worth taking offense over. I'm sorry, that's just the way I see it. Don't let your religion, or lack thereof, define you as a person. Be yourself. Be original. And learn to laugh at your existential crisis.

We all die. Let's put our offense away and learn to accept others for being who they are and love them. Shittiness and all.


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 14th 2013, 04:29 AM

Alright, Time for me to shine. It's not really fair nor is it interesting if you don't hear both sides of the story huh? Let me give you a Christians point-of-view. I don't really want to say Atheist are assholes, but lets just say some of them (key word SOME) really like to abuse the right to be disrespectful to an old book, and the people that believe the book to be true. I did see quite a bit of that in this thread. The important thing to know that no matter what there is always going to be assholes. No matter where, for example, in the christian community we have our own version of assholes. They're called homophobic's. Constantly they yell at the top of their lungs spreading lies about how god hates homosexuals and so-on. Just like how the assholes of atheism constantly spread lies on God, saying he is worst than Satan. So whenever you see atheist being assholes, just shrug it off, there is going to be assholes no matter what. If you're like me, you'd just joke about it. Have a happy life, goodbye.


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 14th 2013, 04:54 AM

[quote=Of Mike and Men;1079517]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelle. View Post
That's non-sense. I wouldn't define mockery as being an "attack" against religion, either. That's non-sense. That's a harsh term for a innocent jest. Sure, it might be offensive, a lot of things are. It doesn't give the right to demand censorship. I don't like certain aspects of religion. I don't care to read Church signs condemning me to Hell, or signs that say things like, "You think it's hot now, just wait till you're in Hell." Or signs that claim they know the truth, etc. while I'm deceived. But, guess what? I don't ask them to censor it. Or, hey, how about Sharia Law?

The world is a shitty place filled with shitty people who do shitty things. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can laugh at ourselves. Laugh at your religion, laugh at your atheism, laugh at your agnosticism. If your god is forgiving, then perhaps you should be as well. Look past it. Move on. It's not worth taking offense over. I'm sorry, that's just the way I see it. Don't let your religion, or lack thereof, define you as a person. Be yourself. Be original. And learn to laugh at your existential crisis.

We all die. Let's put or offense away and learn to accept others for being who they are and love them. Shittiness and all.
And you've hit the nail on the head there, my good man. Absolutely correct... With the exception that I do think it's wrong for both parties to attack either party involved in the constant religious/irreligious argument, though that can't be helped. Which is essentially the same thing you said, which I initially said, which would make my repetition of what you said that I said that you said redundant.

But, end story, I agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraziee65 View Post
Alright, Time for me to shine. It's not really fair nor is it interesting if you don't hear both sides of the story huh? Let me give you a Christians point-of-view. I don't really want to say Atheist are assholes, but lets just say some of them (key word SOME) really like to abuse the right to be disrespectful to an old book, and the people that believe the book to be true. I did see quite a bit of that in this thread. The important thing to know that no matter what there is always going to be assholes. No matter where, for example, in the christian community we have our own version of assholes. They're called homophobic's. Constantly they yell at the top of their lungs spreading lies about how god hates homosexuals and so-on. Just like how the assholes of atheism constantly spread lies on God, saying he is worst than Satan. So whenever you see atheist being assholes, just shrug it off, there is going to be assholes no matter what. If you're like me, you'd just joke about it. Have a happy life, goodbye.
This guy's got the right idea, too. You've gotta kinda learn to just shrug it off. In an ideal world, there would be no problem between us. On this wonderful utopia of a planet filled with happily hopping pink fluffy bunnies, there is obviously no problem at all, and we have the option of just ignoring/avoiding the idiot madmen running around with hatchets trying to chop off the happily hopping pink fluffy bunnies' heads.

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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 14th 2013, 01:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBelle. View Post
It isn't fair, also, to say that this is just a "push back" from people who have been oppressed by Abrahamic religions. By "pushing back," atheists are sinking to the same level of the Abrahamic religions that they left. They argue amongst themselves, mock people for being Christians or Muslims or Jews, and think they're superior to other religious people, simply because they choose to believe differently - or rather, not to believe altogether.
It's not fair to say that it is, or it's not fair to do it itself? Please, the distinction is rather important.
I'd say it's more due to there being pressures, which typically accompany minority groups. And even then, not trying to justify it. Your strawman is deriving justification where none was given.

Quote:
Two wrongs do not make a right. Pay attention to what you're saying, folks. "Because we are oppressed, we will oppress. Because we are judged, we will judge. Because we are hated, we will hate." Wouldn't that simply spin more hatred between the two groups? Isn't the whole purpose of being an atheist to be more open-minded than those of the Abrahamic religions? By insulting those who follow God or Allah or Christ, you are following in those same footsteps of the closed-minded people who drove you from the religions in the first place.
"The purpose of an atheist to be more open-minded". You're conflating skepticism with atheism. Not the same thing.
Your strawman is again used to portray atheists negatively, acting as if the actions were hypocritical. You also seem to think ridicule entails close-mindedness inherently. I'd say that's rather dubious. Makes you a bit of a dick, sure. Maybe not close-minded, though.
I also think you misunderstand the social issue. Atheists are more vocal because we're a minority. Christians, Jews and Muslims aren't banned from holding office in 13 different US states. We don't have equal treatment in society. We also can't oppress a majority, can we? That's ridiculous. Being banned from public office is oppression. Insulting someone's religion is not.


Quote:
Until you begin to forgive, to understand, and to see where the other group is coming from - even if you don't agree - you will never be free of your hatred. You haven't let go of closed-mindedness: You're simply judging from the atheist point of view, rather than from the Abrahamic point of view. You have morphed your hatred and directed it against another group, not rid yourself of it completely. You are just as closed-minded as some of those generalizing religious people which you pass judgment on every time you see people loving their beliefs.
"Hatred". Not really sure most of it is real hatred. Of the religions, more believable. But of people, that's very doubtful. One can pass judgement as one pleases. So long as they're not actively suppressing someone else's autonomy to do so, or superimposing their own beliefs upon the citizenship's daily life, not many people are really going to object to that.

Quote:
It'll be fine. Just let the atheists go on judging. They need to accuse and to criticize and to mock to hold onto their unbelief; if they truly didn't believe, they would stop trying to disprove religion to themselves and everyone around them. It's themselves they are hurting through their rudeness, and it can only hurt you if you allow it to.
And here's where you hypocrisy is apparent. Don't treat hatred with hatred, eh? Well, seeing as you have the gall to really propose the absolutely idiotic notion that an attempt to "disprove" something shows a lack of real conviction or lack of belief, perhaps you should read your own post. You shouldn't be insulting people, right? Don't treat hatred with hatred.


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 15th 2013, 12:11 PM

See, I feel this needs to.be titled "behavior of stupid people." I saw Christians this year dressed as Native Americans, I saw one of Osama Bin Laden, and etc. There are stupid people of every religion.and.lack there of. Why only lump.stupidity and rudeness with atheism? We are certainly.not the.only.one..


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 16th 2013, 06:01 AM

If people could just focus on being nice to each other, and making this world a better place, rather than fussing over religious rules and country boarders, then there would be few wars. People are different. Most of these differences have nothing to do with race or religion, and I'm glad that people are different, because if they weren't, life woupd be very boring. Atheists generally do not abuse people for being religious, they just dont fit into any religion. Some atheists choose to only believe in what can be proven, others just havent found themselves yet. Ultimately, humans need to learn to get along, or we will die.
   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 22nd 2013, 02:07 AM

I agree with everyone saying that one shouldn't generalize and there are assholes in every group.

I have another slightly related question. I'm an agnostic, if I "disrespect god" in private is that still disrespectful to those who believe in him?


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 23rd 2013, 12:02 AM

my problem with this post is that it generalizes all atheists.
even if you're not talking about all atheists in general, it would still be considerate to say "SOME atheists" or "the ones who do this"
I myself, am not an atheist, but i'm part of a spirituality that doesn't get attacked by them usually.



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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 23rd 2013, 12:53 AM

I'm not really sure what I am spiritualy but I am probably closer to atheists than other groups. I guess I am an atheist or an agnostic or an apathetical person. And yes I will say things that might offend religious people sometimes. But I don't say them with the intent to offend. For me, I like to think of it as liberating to use my freedom of speech to criticize things I have issues with.

But I don't hate religious people. I am dating a Christian, as a matter of fact, so I have to watch what I say around him or I'll get into trouble haha
   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 24th 2013, 03:14 AM

Most people that try to push their own beliefs on other people aren't true believers in the first place. I'm not just talking about atheists either. Any true believer has a reason they believe what they believe. Some will push their believes on others because they can't stand anyone believing a different thing and don't understand believing anything else, they are the ones who are not true believers (in my eyes). On the other hand others will rationally try to explain their point of view, trying to help the other person understand where they are coming from and maybe convince them that they are thinking logically. A lot of the time those rational people are mistaken to be forcing their beliefs on other, which only happens because many people take being told anything that sounds anything at all like telling them that they are wrong as a complete and utter insult along with being a mean action, even though that wasn't the original intention.
   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 24th 2013, 05:37 AM

Ive always seen the more outspoken atheists as a group of complainers. I don't mean to make fun of them, but I tend to get that impression a lot. They fight to oppress their own oppression by oppressing the oppressors(That quote is now trademarked). They love the freedom to have any religion, because it allows atheism. Freedom of religion is supposed to provide openness towards religious beliefs. No religion is innocent of persecuting other people, but the way atheists do it strikes me as funny. A lot of them accuse the church of persecuting others, and yet they'll sue to separate church from state (which is already separate in the US) which usually ends up limiting religious freedom for the rest of us. I don't remember what case it was, but I know Ive heard this one before: A guy prayed publically in front of the senate (or other public building) and an atheist sued him or the state. Why do they care? That's my question.
Im aware this doesn't apply to all atheists.
   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 24th 2013, 03:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Ive always seen the more outspoken atheists as a group of complainers. I don't mean to make fun of them, but I tend to get that impression a lot. They fight to oppress their own oppression by oppressing the oppressors(That quote is now trademarked). They love the freedom to have any religion, because it allows atheism. Freedom of religion is supposed to provide openness towards religious beliefs. No religion is innocent of persecuting other people, but the way atheists do it strikes me as funny. A lot of them accuse the church of persecuting others, and yet they'll sue to separate church from state (which is already separate in the US) which usually ends up limiting religious freedom for the rest of us. I don't remember what case it was, but I know Ive heard this one before: A guy prayed publically in front of the senate (or other public building) and an atheist sued him or the state. Why do they care? That's my question.
Im aware this doesn't apply to all atheists.
Yes complaining does seem completely pointless but it's not just atheists. Some religious people will complain endlessly if they find out that you are atheist or even just a different religion. Your question kind of applies to more then just some atheists.
   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 25th 2013, 09:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Ive always seen the more outspoken atheists as a group of complainers. I don't mean to make fun of them, but I tend to get that impression a lot. They fight to oppress their own oppression by oppressing the oppressors(That quote is now trademarked). They love the freedom to have any religion, because it allows atheism. Freedom of religion is supposed to provide openness towards religious beliefs. No religion is innocent of persecuting other people, but the way atheists do it strikes me as funny. A lot of them accuse the church of persecuting others, and yet they'll sue to separate church from state (which is already separate in the US) which usually ends up limiting religious freedom for the rest of us. I don't remember what case it was, but I know Ive heard this one before: A guy prayed publically in front of the senate (or other public building) and an atheist sued him or the state. Why do they care? That's my question.
Im aware this doesn't apply to all atheists.
I agree with what you're saying, as well. It bothers me a lot, actually, that atheists are so adamant about having religion censored. What's even more annoying about it is they'll make statements like, "Religion causes this that and the other!" They'll make the claims that religion oppresses people, etc. And, of course, it has. However, the things they want censored or barred do not necessarily cause oppression. It MAY encourage it. However, I think religion should be practiced privately, and not in the open. I think this should be done as a courtesy, and not enforced by State and Federal laws.

While I do not appreciate open practice of religion, I oppose the banning of freedoms, more-so. It comes more from the Liberal atheists, which tends to have a lot of numbers. Very few atheists fall on the right-side of the political spectrum, and that's perhaps due to the prominent religious people that hold the majority of the right which disables young atheists in seeing an alternative to the left.

I also think a lot of ideology is indoctrinated into the atheists through the government education system, which I think should become privatized. That is, I do not think government should be involved with education, at all. A lot of teachers and professors hold a liberal ideology, and impose it onto students. They give the sense that the conservatives are bigoted idiots trying to ban freedoms and hurt the poor. When, in fact, this isn't true. Which is why I fall into a libertarian category. I would be Republican, but I disagree with the banning on gay-marriage, and abortion.

Anyways, not to give all my personal details, my point is, many atheists place a faith in the education system, which, is a joke. They trust their teachers and professors as being infallible, and so, are indoctrinated into a liberal theology which bars freedoms, like religion. Which is why I think you see many atheists wanting that "separation" all the while being hypocritical about it.

It all comes down to big government, in reality. Both Republicans and Democrats are trying to paint a atrocious picture of the other-side.

Republicans: Democrats are trying to ban our religious freedom and freedom of speech!
Democrats: Republicans are trying to ban or freedom from religion!

And there, a shining beacon of light...
Libertarian: Both sides are trying to strip our freedoms.


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 26th 2013, 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Anyways, not to give all my personal details, my point is, many atheists place a faith in the education system, which, is a joke. They trust their teachers and professors as being infallible, and so, are indoctrinated into a liberal theology which bars freedoms, like religion. Which is why I think you see many atheists wanting that "separation" all the while being hypocritical about it.
School merely teaches the things closest to fact (and the only reason I say closest to, is because pretty much nothing is fact because humans can't possibly know if they are right). I don't see how you even could take the education system and make it personal without ending up making most people never learn a thing because they would not have any reason to even try to learn anything. Not to mention that the current education system is about the most unbiased your going to get because almost any other system is going to make sure only their ideals are learned and if you leave education up to the pure choice of the people then people will be pressured to staying to the same facts and opinions as their family and friends, basically making sure that not a single person will ever move foreword. Most of the people your referring to are merely taking the information they were given wrong.
   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 26th 2013, 01:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AoiYami View Post
School merely teaches the things closest to fact (and the only reason I say closest to, is because pretty much nothing is fact because humans can't possibly know if they are right).
How do you know this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AoiYami View Post
I don't see how you even could take the education system and make it personal without ending up making most people never learn a thing because they would not have any reason to even try to learn anything.
You're assuming the current education system isn't already biased, nor flawed. You're assuming it is currently infallible and unimposed by various organizations, groups, or governments trying to control free-thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AoiYami View Post
Not to mention that the current education system is about the most unbiased your going to get because almost any other system is going to make sure only their ideals are learned and if you leave education up to the pure choice of the people
Again, read the above. You're assuming that the current education system is free of ideals. That educators aren't pressured to teach various things. We are not talking about science, or math-fields, as those things ARE fact based. But, when it comes to history, liberal arts, politics, economics, social sciences, and the like, it's VERY relative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AoiYami View Post
then people will be pressured to staying to the same facts and opinions as their family and friends, basically making sure that not a single person will ever move foreword. Most of the people your referring to are merely taking the information they were given wrong.
The problem is you're buying into what educators want you to think. Diversity isn't bad. It prevents a society full of robots who are taught what to think and not how to think.

The education system is not unbiased. When it comes to facts, sure, facts are facts. Any idiots can make that claim.

However, they purposefully distort information. e.g. The war between the North and the South was a war over slavery. This is incorrect. The war between the North and the South was a war over Federal vs. State rights. They also teach that European settlers killed the natives in the Americas. This isn't true, either. There was a plague that killed about 90% of the Natives. Teachers are told what they can and can't teach. Even in literature classes, students are given books that they must read to impose the ideals of various proponents of certain ideas and ingrain them into students. Not that this is all bad, but it is a form of indoctrination.

My point is, the government doesn't need to tell educators how to do their job. Nor do we need the government lending out money to students who can't afford the amount the government is lending and creating a HUGE financial burden for students. IF the government didn't give out trillions of dollars for students for Universities to take advantage of, University tuition would drop, dramatically. The government wouldn't be getting billions of dollars in profits from the loans, either. It's unnecessary.

http://www.cato.org/publications/whi...come-countries

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/education/

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/145...2&tag=rpcom-20

http://listverse.com/2013/01/20/10-l...-us-in-school/


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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 26th 2013, 02:42 AM

(unlike you I'm not going to dissect your post just to make my point, I'll just use "" quotes instead, if I need to.)

One science is basically all just theories, many of which have been proven wrong in the past. In reality although things like gravity seem like they are completely fact it is still a theory that can not be completely proven because we can not possibly know everything about the universe. But if you don't believe that I'm not going to argue with you over one stupid fact.

I did not even once assume that it is not bias at all, I said that it is the least bias, meaning it may be bias but all, or most at least, alternatives are more bias then it. Also nice try to redirect my thoughts but it wont work. My main point in that part of what I said was the fact that if no one is forced to learn at least SOMETHING they will never bother to learn on their own. The second thing I was getting at that you completely ignored is that if education is left to the people and not at all made by any authority that has anything to do with the government then all that will happen is that throughout the generations of people everyone will stay just as smart or as stupid as everyone else in their family.

History actually happened and although history is usually told from one side or another it is at the very least a truth in the way that side views it. How art is done, the history of art, what makes art (to an extent anyways, it is slightly subjective but not completely) are all the same throughout art. and the same basic concept goes for the rest of your list.

I never once said that diversity is bad, once again you assume something about me in order to attack.

I'm not saying that education should be completely trusted or anything. What I am saying is that you can't just go from one side or another. If you only believe in god and his teachings you are merely a blind follower who will never truly know if you are following god or the devil himself. You have to look at things from BOTH sides in order to be truly educated. The system, I'll admit, does neglect to teach thinking, but it is still needed for it's information and view. The problem is not the education system, or god, or the devil, or any other thing you can come up with, the problem is how people think of it. If people were to logically think about things and question reality and anything else then they could be truly educated. The problem about that is that society its self makes sure that they try their hardest to make this not happen. Society hates anything that is different. That goes for theism, agnostic, atheist, black, white, or any other race, child, adult, smart or stupid. Blaming any particular behavior on any group or thing only on its own is stupid. Nothing is ever black and white. circumstances always affect what is happening.
   
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Re: Behaviour of Atheists. - November 26th 2013, 08:18 PM

Going off topic slightly, but felt a response was warranted to a couple of claims made:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
The education system is not unbiased. When it comes to facts, sure, facts are facts. Any idiots can make that claim.

However, they purposefully distort information. e.g. The war between the North and the South was a war over slavery. This is incorrect. The war between the North and the South was a war over Federal vs. State rights.
Actually, the direct trigger of the American Civil War was in fact the slavery question. Politics in the 1850s was dominated by the issue, as typefied by the reaction to the Dred Scott decision and affairs in other countries (Great Britain had banned it completely, for example), and Lincoln's status as an anti-slavery proponent (however strongly he held the position) was the motivation for many Southern leaders threatening secession if he won the 1860 election (and acting on this threat when he did). Federal versus State rights was a factor in the build-up, no question, as were others, but claiming that it is "incorrect" to depict the war as being over slavery is, well, pretty much incorrect itself. Certainly contemporary figures framed the split as being in the context of slavery, on both sides of the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
They also teach that European settlers killed the natives in the Americas. This isn't true, either. There was a plague that killed about 90% of the Natives.
I'm assuming this must be a territory-specific teaching, because for my part I've never heard an account which claimed anything other than infectious disease being responsible for the vast majority of Native deaths. Where the blame finger tends to get pointed towards European settlers is in that they tended to bring an interesting combination of viruses and bacteria with them, which the Natives' immune systems were not accustomed to and hence struggled against. (As demonstrated by the story of Pocahontas, among others) That being said, those settlers who did engage in a bit of land-grabbing and bloodspilling didn't help the cause either, and they certainly did exist.

Indeed, the main point from both of your examples is the importance of context. Both statements you declare to be false are in fact true, albeit in a far more nuanced context than popular wisdom may accord them. Going from one extreme to the other, however, does not land at a more informed position.


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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