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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Kraziee65 Offline
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Domino's and Baptism. - October 31st 2014, 06:35 AM

I'm a Christian, and plan on being Baptized. If some of you don't know what Baptism is, it's basically saying "I believe and worship God. I love Jesus, and acknowledge him as the savior. I will do anything for God, I will die for him, I will speak for him. I will never turn away from God, not for one second. Not even through the Devil's hand, or humanity's schemes. No matter what happens, I'll stand proudly as a Christian. For God, and the savior." So, yeah, that's a HUGE statement to make, and to make it as a ignorant 15 year old boy with hasn't read the bible, stopped going to church at age 11, and has gathered all his information about God on Christian websites, would be bad. "Show me the proof" some would ask, well. That's what I wanted to talk about today.

Today at school, Thursday, a religious discussion started up on my lunch table. There was 1 Pagan, what seem to be 3 Atheist, my best friend who claims he's christian but has never went to church or read the bible, and then there's me. The one guy who's been researching Christian Theology, because he plan's to get baptized. During the discussion, my friend brings up a statement. "Technically, we don't know that the bible was just made up, or if it is true". I argued against it, saying that if the bible was just made up, then all of our history books were made up too. See, the proof of Jesus isn't in science, it's in history. History is a set of domino's, one event happens then the next, there is no "this event was made up" and then "Big religion starts and changes world history". It has to go in order. An example of this was with Buddhism, Siddhartha was born and founded Buddhism. There couldn't be "Siddhartha was maybe born we don't know but he founded the largest religion in several countries." That wouldn't make sense. In order for Christianity to exist, there needed to be Jesus. Without Jesus there would be no Christianity. Jesus was born a poor man, he was baptized, went around performing teaching miracles, then was crucified. All this happens in the bible, all this happened in history. So therefore, the bible couldn't have been made up. I was later talking about why the Jewish people don't eat pork, then the pagan girl told me I was wrong and should "Know my shit" before talking about religion. The more I think about today, the more I think I'm ready for baptism. I'm not here to start a argument, just state something I noticed.

Sorry for the lengthy post.


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Re: Domino's and Baptism. - October 31st 2014, 05:11 PM

Congrats on your plan to get baptized! While I may not be a Christian, I'm happy that you found something that you believe in that makes you happy.

Plus, if you ever wanted a debate, I would promise a clean one without telling you to "know your shit."


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Re: Domino's and Baptism. - October 31st 2014, 05:22 PM

That pagan girl needs to mind her tongue. It's one thing to point out a perceived lack of knowledge on your part, but it's another thing to be entirely disrespectful toward what you've learned about other religions, especially without providing proof to counteract your knowledge.

Going by your first paragraph, I'm not certain whether you're the fifteen year old boy you described, or the person attempting to instruct someone in what may be a bad mistake. Regardless, it sounds like you understand the seriousness of this. Baptism, or permanent initiation into any religion, could be an amazing thing; or it could be a terrible thing. It's important to gather information on other perspectives before undergoing any sort of initiation into any religion. It's part of making an informed decision.

Myself, I'm neither Christian nor atheist (I'm a pagan of sorts, myself). I do tend more toward reason, however, which means that I - being the insufferable know-it-all that I am - am here to point out the flaw in your reasoning.

At risk of offending you deeply:

Quote:
See, the proof of Jesus isn't in science, it's in history.
There is proof of Jesus in history, yes, but there is no viable proof that he was the Son of God. The only supposed "proof" that Jesus was the Son of God is contained within the Bible. As there aren't any other historic documents to back up the Bible's claims, there is no substantial proof that Jesus was actually the Messiah.

Now, if you choose to believe in the Bible, then that's faith. Faith is different from truth. Faith is a belief, not a fact. If you have faith that you feel a connection to Jesus as the Messiah, then within your own mind, you are correct. It still isn't a fact outside your own faith that it is, so don't debate with others based on the presumption that it is fact.

Quote:
An example of this was with Buddhism, Siddhartha was born and founded Buddhism.
This is true. But, Siddhartha didn't ask people to believe he was a divine messenger, or that he was the Son of God. Siddhartha shared his inner philosophy with the world, and the world loved it so much that some of his followers - despite his disagreeing - began to worship him as a God. Buddhism, as it was founded, is a philosophy, not a religion. Therefore, it doesn't require faith, because it's simply another path toward spirituality.

Quote:
In order for Christianity to exist, there needed to be Jesus. Without Jesus there would be no Christianity.
Precisely why there are so many non-Christian people in the world.

Quote:
Jesus was born a poor man, he was baptized, went around performing teaching miracles, then was crucified. All this happens in the bible, all this happened in history.
Jesus was born a poor man, and he was crucified. That's document by history.

His miracles are not documented by history, except within the Bible.

Quote:
So therefore, the Bible couldn't have been made up.
The Bible was written by multiple authors over the course of thousands of years. Christians believe that the Bible was divinely inspired. If you believe the Bible, then you believe that God inspired the words written there. Because Christianity isn't a universal religion, there are many variants from that belief.
  • Some believe that the Bible was written by a collection of similar-minded, slightly deranged people over the course of time.
  • Some, like myself, believe that the Bible was written by a collection of people who wanted to control the divine message. I.e., they didn't want the Divine to inspire people to faith directly. They wanted to prescribe a set way of living, and threaten people with Hell for failing to adhere. This, if one believes my way, was all done so that whole civilizations of people could be controlled by several men and their delusions. Harsh, I know. But it is what I believe, so I felt like sharing.
  • Some believe that the Bible, particularly the New Testament, was written by a collection of Jesus's disciples, who'd been deluded into believing into his holiness. Jesus was a brilliant speaker (no doubt about that), but so was Hitler. Both possessed a talent for swaying individuals to believe their own personal delusions, resulting in the persecution of thousands.

And, because I know you'll disagree with that last line (that Jesus's followers persecuted thousands): It began with the first Christian Roman Emperor, who executed followers of the Ancient Greek and Roman religions. It continued with witch burning throughout the middle ages. It continued with the practical obliteration of the Native American religions, through forced attendance to mission schools. Today, we pagans and Christians thankfully have no reason to be afraid of one another.

If, after all this, you still feel absolutely no doubts, then I say you're ready to be baptized.
   
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Re: Domino's and Baptism. - November 1st 2014, 01:30 PM

I'm a sumerian-pagan. I'd like to point out that the old testemant stories actually come directly from my holy book, the ancient Sumerian tablets. Sumeria was the first civilization on earth, the bible says this as well... Therefore, the old testemant is not inspired by jehova, but by enki.


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Re: Domino's and Baptism. - November 1st 2014, 11:17 PM

Quote:
Jesus was a brilliant speaker (no doubt about that), but so was Hitler. Both possessed a talent for swaying individuals to believe their own personal delusions, resulting in the persecution of thousands.
For most of your reply I agreed, but this one I'm strongly against. In the quote you've literally compared Jesus to Hitler. A religious prophet who loved the people of earth so much that he died a painful and horrible death for their sins to a sociopath dictator that brainwashed Germans to kill over six million people. That sir, is just disgustingly disrespectful.

I know that you might have a extreme hatred for Christianity, or faith, but at least have respect.


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Re: Domino's and Baptism. - November 2nd 2014, 12:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraziee65 View Post
In the quote you've literally compared Jesus to Hitler. A religious prophet who loved the people of earth so much that he died a painful and horrible death for their sins to a sociopath dictator that brainwashed Germans to kill over six million people. That sir, is just disgustingly disrespectful.

I am Christian, however I do not agree with some aspects of Christianity. First off congratulations on your choice to become Baptized. Secondly, I do not by any means want to offend you by what I am going to say. I merely want to disagree with what you said, and give my reasons behind it. I do not mean to ramble, but I want to mention a few reasons out of many that I have found.

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (John 8:44-47)

"Considering the Satanic skill which these evil counselors displayed, how could their unfortunate victims be blamed? Indeed, I found it extremely difficult myself to be a match for the dialectical perfidy of that race. How futile it was to try to win over such people with argument, seeing that their very mouths distorted the truth, disowning the very words they had just used and adopting them again a few moments afterwards to serve their own ends in the argument! No. The more I came to know the Jew, the easier it was to excuse the workers. Should the Jew, with the aid of his Marxist creed, triumph over the people of this world, his Crown will be the funeral wreath of mankind, and this planet will once again follow its orbit through ether, without any human life on its surface, as it did millions of years ago. And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord." (p. 45-46 Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf)

If you read these two passages, both have evaluations of the Jews which are homogeneous.

Hitler believed he was doing the Lords work, and in several of his speeches he mentioned his beliefs of the Christian faith. Hitler was aiming to protect the Lord's image as he referenced "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26) on page 89 of Volume two of Mein Kampf. "A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape."
"The Lord is a man of war" (Exodus 15:3) Hitler was the cause of World War II, therefore making him a man of war. "At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them--men, women and children. We left no survivors" (Deuteronomy 2:34). Hitler took several cities as well as countries, he may not of killed every single individual in each BUT the actions he used while taking control of the areas resulted in the deaths of men, women, children all of which were innocent of any crime.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler's speech on 12 April 1922. Hitler believed himself to be a Christian and that he was following through with a duty bestowed upon him.


I believe in some aspects of Christianity as that was how I was raised by school and by church, but my own studies into certain aspects have led to my questioning of those aspects. I believe that while Jesus Christ was as you said,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraziee65 View Post
A religious prophet who loved the people of earth so much that he died a painful and horrible death for their sins.
He was also behind the massacre of thousands, while it may not of been on the same scale as Hitler, it was nonetheless from the persuasion of their individual beliefs to their followers..

   
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Re: Domino's and Baptism. - November 2nd 2014, 12:45 PM

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He was also behind the massacre of thousands, while it may not of been on the same scale as Hitler, it was nonetheless from the persuasion of their individual beliefs to their followers..
You can't honestly say that Jesus taught the word of God with the intention of ethnic cleansing, and persecution of men and women. Hitler did claim to speak the word of God, but it was not the word of God, it was the word of a diseased psychopath who wanted to deceive the people of Germany. The German population is still a majority christian, and back when the Nazi regime began Hitler took note of this. Hitler used God and Christ to deceive Germany into using them as butcher's in his horrible holocaust. There is no similarity between him and Christ. For Christ spoke so he can better mankind, not by ethnic cleansing, but by teaching humbleness and forgiveness. Hitler only spoke so that he can rise to power.


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Re: Domino's and Baptism. - November 6th 2014, 05:54 AM

They were comparing Hitler and Jesus in their ways of persuasion. They were both very persuasive, one in a truly horrible way, and the other in a positive/neutral/negative/false way depending on how you look at it.


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