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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 8th 2012, 02:40 PM

I started talking to my friend about why I'm not Christian and she told me Jesus isn't the Jewish messiah he is the Christian messiah. I guess that is technically true, but it's weird to say because she's Christian. I thought Christians believed Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the messiah from the old testament and think he is the Jewish messiah, but the reason Jews don't believe is because they have different ideas of the prophecies.

http://bible.org/article/messianic-prophecies

Since Christians believe he fulfilled hundreds of messianic prophecies doesn't that mean they believe Jesus is the true, Jewish messiah?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

Jewish people don't believe Jesus is the messiah because he didn't fulfill what they consider the true messianic prophecies which are very different from what Christians consider prophecies.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 8th 2012, 02:52 PM

I'm officially lazy, so I copied this chart from a website so I didn't have to type a bunch. Here you go:


http://www.religionfacts.com/christi...ty_judaism.htm

So what I gather is that Judaism denies that Jesus was even a prophet, which is different than what I always believed as well. I thought the same thing as you. Jewish people deny that Jesus has yet risen. They believe that God will come to the earth in human flesh, but that it has not yet happened. As far as Christian beliefs, I am Christian and I have always been taught that Jesus was Jewish.





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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 8th 2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadPoet View Post
I'm officially lazy, so I copied this chart from a website so I didn't have to type a bunch. Here you go:


http://www.religionfacts.com/christi...ty_judaism.htm

So what I gather is that Judaism denies that Jesus was even a prophet, which is different than what I always believed as well. I thought the same thing as you. Jewish people deny that Jesus has yet risen. They believe that God will come to the earth in human flesh, but that it has not yet happened. As far as Christian beliefs, I am Christian and I have always been taught that Jesus was Jewish.
Jewish people don't believe the messiah will be God, or is to be worshiped. He will just be the messiah. Also, Jews don't call God Jehovah. I don't think my friend knew what she was talking about. I told her otherwise, but she told me I didn't know what I was talking about and it made me look ignorant.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 8th 2012, 04:28 PM

I admittedly don't know much about this subject, but from what I've been told the two beliefs that are shared among all the Christian denominations are the belief in the trinity and that Jesus is the son of God. Since Jews don't believe that, they aren't considered Christians. As far as I know they believe Jesus was a fully human prophet and rabbi.


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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 8th 2012, 04:31 PM

Yes, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He also saved non-Jews though and basically adopted us into the family even though we are not descendents of Abraham.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 8th 2012, 05:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kate* View Post
I admittedly don't know much about this subject, but from what I've been told the two beliefs that are shared among all the Christian denominations are the belief in the trinity and that Jesus is the son of God. Since Jews don't believe that, they aren't considered Christians. As far as I know they believe Jesus was a fully human prophet and rabbi.
I thought there were non-trinitarian Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism

The title rabbi didn't exist until after Jesus so he couldn't have been a rabbi in the sense we know today. It's Muslims who believe Jesus was a prophet, not Jews. Muslims call him Isa. Jesus did things a prophet wouldn't do like say he was the way to God and telling other Jews to symbolically eat him.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ask_...rt_Jesus.shtml
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 16th 2012, 09:46 AM

Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world, Jews included. The majority of Jewish people reject the notion of Jesus being the Messiah because he died. The Jewish Messiah isn't supposed to die, and Jesus proved himself a false Messiah by dying.


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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 19th 2012, 09:36 AM

Jesus was Jewish, therefore the Jewish Messiah - however after his crucifixion the two groups separated. Modern Jews do not see Jesus as their Messiah, modern Christians believe Jesus was the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.

Christianity should really be renamed reformed Judaism . . . :P
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 20th 2012, 05:14 AM

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Originally Posted by i_like_black View Post
Jesus was Jewish, therefore the Jewish Messiah - however after his crucifixion the two groups separated. Modern Jews do not see Jesus as their Messiah, modern Christians believe Jesus was the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.

Christianity should really be renamed reformed Judaism . . . :P
The beliefs of Christianity are foreign to Judaism.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 20th 2012, 05:34 AM

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Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
The beliefs of Christianity are foreign to Judaism.
Only because Christianity was the deviation from Judaism... and I would say they are hardly foreign with it. They have the only Old Testament to deal with, so I'd say from a quantity standpoint that they have a better chance of being more familiar with it than Christians do with their newfangled New Testament + the Old.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 20th 2012, 06:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Rosana View Post
Only because Christianity was the deviation from Judaism... and I would say they are hardly foreign with it. They have the only Old Testament to deal with, so I'd say from a quantity standpoint that they have a better chance of being more familiar with it than Christians do with their newfangled New Testament + the Old.
Lol, I didn't mean Jews don't understand Christianity. I mean the beliefs of Christianity are so vastly different to Judaism, Christianity is certainly not a form of Judaism.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 20th 2012, 10:00 PM

Up in the clouds: A schism divided the Jews from the Christians. Jewish people don't deny Jesus was a phrophet, however they do deny that he is the fabled son of God, and are waiting for the first comming of Christ, whereas Christians are waiting for the second comming that will end the world as we know it.

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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 21st 2012, 02:18 AM

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Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
Up in the clouds: A schism divided the Jews from the Christians. Jewish people don't deny Jesus was a phrophet, however they do deny that he is the fabled son of God, and are waiting for the first comming of Christ, whereas Christians are waiting for the second comming that will end the world as we know it.

- Justin
They do deny Jesus as a prophet. I asked an orthodox rabbi. He said they did not believe he was a prophet, god, or a rabbi and even told me scholars doubted his existence. If Jesus was a prophet in Judaism he would be included in the Tanakh.

Jews don't think the messiah will be divine.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 21st 2012, 02:22 AM

Up in the Clouds: They treat him as a false prophet at the very least.

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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 21st 2012, 03:19 PM

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Up in the Clouds: They treat him as a false prophet at the very least.

- Justin
What do you mean a false prophet? They just think he's not a prophet. A false prophet wouldn't really be a prophet at all.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 21st 2012, 04:30 PM

Up in the Clouds:

Some Jewish people believe he was a prophet, similair to John the Baptist. However they deny he was the Christ, the son of God.

The Old Testemant warns of false prophets, or people who claim to be sent by God, but are simply trying to trick us. If they don't believe he was of biblical signifigance they believe him to at least be the most signifigant false prophet.

Regardless of which of the two the person believes they have to acknowledge Jesus changed Judasim.

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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 21st 2012, 11:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
Up in the Clouds:

Some Jewish people believe he was a prophet, similair to John the Baptist. However they deny he was the Christ, the son of God.

The Old Testemant warns of false prophets, or people who claim to be sent by God, but are simply trying to trick us. If they don't believe he was of biblical signifigance they believe him to at least be the most signifigant false prophet.

Regardless of which of the two the person believes they have to acknowledge Jesus changed Judasim.

- Justin
I'm pretty much 100% sure Jesus is irrelevant to Judaism and it's just not discussed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...ddress=316x693
http://www.simpletoremember.com/arti...ewsandjesus/#2
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_Jew...s_is_a_prophet
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ask_...rt_Jesus.shtml

What do you mean by Jesus changed Judaism?
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 22nd 2012, 02:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
What do you mean by Jesus changed Judaism?
Quote:
30 CE: Some Jews, following the teachings of Jeshua of Nazareth (known by Christians as Jesus Christ), formed a Jewish Christian reform movement within Judaism.
-http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_desc1.htm

Quote:
Jews have traditionally seen Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history
-http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8616-jesus-of-nazareth

Quote:
The belief that Jesus (or any other human) is God, any deity, the son of God, or a person of the Trinity, is completely unacceptable according to every tradition of Jewish law, and incompatible with Jewish philosophical tenets.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus

Basically, Jesus was a prophet claiming to be God/God's son and taught the Old Testament. When people starting following him and writing down what he said, that became the beginnings of the New Testament (hence Justin's comment on 'reformed Judaism'.

But some Jews did and still do see Jesus as a false prophet because not only the idea that a God could be anything but God (there is no holy trinity in Judaism) does not fit into Judaism. Jesus didn't fit some Jew's idea of the Jewish Messiah, because the Jewish Messiah would not have died before bring in the Messianic age, as Jesus did.

Those who followed Jesus and his new teachings became Jewish Christians, and then eventually just Christians. That's how Jesus changed Judaism.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 22nd 2012, 02:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosana View Post
-http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_desc1.htm


-http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8616-jesus-of-nazareth


-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus

Basically, Jesus was a prophet claiming to be God/God's son and taught the Old Testament. When people starting following him and writing down what he said, that became the beginnings of the New Testament (hence Justin's comment on 'reformed Judaism'.

But some Jews did and still do see Jesus as a false prophet because not only the idea that a God could be anything but God (there is no holy trinity in Judaism) does not fit into Judaism. Jesus didn't fit some Jew's idea of the Jewish Messiah, because the Jewish Messiah would not have died before bring in the Messianic age, as Jesus did.

Those who followed Jesus and his new teachings became Jewish Christians, and then eventually just Christians. That's how Jesus changed Judaism.
She he started a new religion, he never changed the old one. None of the rituals changed, the holy days of Judaism didn't change, the observance of the laws didn't change.

The beliefs of the early Jews who be became Christians probably didn't mirror the beliefs of modern Christianity at all. When Constantine became Christian Gentiles became Christians.

Jews do not think Jesus is a prophet. Judaism and Christianity are totally different. Jews went on their own way, and Christians went on there's. Christianity is definitely not a form of Judaism, like the founder of Buddhism was originally a Hindu but Buddhism and Hinduism are two separate religions.

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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 23rd 2012, 06:36 AM

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The beliefs of the early Jews who be became Christians probably didn't mirror the beliefs of modern Christianity at all. When Constantine became Christian Gentiles became Christians.
Just a quick aside, there were a significant number of Gentile Christians prior to Constantine's conversion. If you read much at all of Paul's writings, he was very Gentile-oriented in his ministry.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 23rd 2012, 09:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
Judaism and Christianity are totally different. Jews went on their own way, and Christians went on there's. Christianity is definitely not a form of Judaism, like the founder of Buddhism was originally a Hindu but Buddhism and Hinduism are two separate religions.
I can assure you Christianity is very much a form of Judaism - I say that as someone with both Christian and Jewish ancestry (at least if what we know of my family tree is anything to go by). Both believe in the God of Abraham, the Ten Commandments and the covenant between God and the Israelites. Their foundations are very much intertwined, just as much as Judaism and Islam's are (the settlers of the Arab peninsula are believed to be descendents of Ishmael, one of Abraham's sons) - hence all three are classed as Abrahamic religions. (This is perhaps something many people, particularly those in the Holy Land, would do well to remember sometimes...) The comparison with Buddhism and Hinduism is, with respect, somewhat inaccurate - Buddhism carried over very little of the Hindu tradition and given its express nontheism (with some exceptions, as with most things) is in direct conflict with the pantheon of Hindu deities. It's also more accurate to view both Hinduism and Buddhism as offshoots of the earlier Vedic and Shramana movements, which paralleled each other but took very different leads. In contrast, much of Christian tradition and practice (including, but not limited to, the format of services and layout of buildings) takes it lead from Judaism and then develops it further.

(I realise I've linked to a lot of Wikipedia articles in this rather than other sources, but sometimes it's the best way of explaining things. Consider this one of those times. )


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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 23rd 2012, 11:12 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Christianity is a form of Judaism. Hasidic Judaism is a form a Judaism as is Reconstructionist Judaism. I think it would be more accurate to say that Christianity is a descendant of Judaism. Theologically, IMO, there is just too much difference between the two to call one a "form" of the other.

However, you do have a very close connection and arguably a blending of the two in Messianic Judaism. Really, when Christianity first started it probably would have been accurate to call it a branch of the Jewish faith as the early church was primarily Jewish. However as both faiths have evolved in the last 2000 years, Christianity has definitely moved beyond being a "branch" of Judaism, in much the same way you wouldn't call the Lutheran denomination a form of the Catholicism, even though it is ultimately descended from the Roman Catholic Church.

I think you had the best description in your post actually though, both of the faiths plus Islam are in the family of Abrahamic faiths.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 24th 2012, 12:03 AM

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I can assure you Christianity is very much a form of Judaism - I say that as someone with both Christian and Jewish ancestry (at least if what we know of my family tree is anything to go by). Both believe in the God of Abraham, the Ten Commandments and the covenant between God and the Israelites. Their foundations are very much intertwined, just as much as Judaism and Islam's are (the settlers of the Arab peninsula are believed to be descendents of Ishmael, one of Abraham's sons) - hence all three are classed as Abrahamic religions. (This is perhaps something many people, particularly those in the Holy Land, would do well to remember sometimes...) The comparison with Buddhism and Hinduism is, with respect, somewhat inaccurate - Buddhism carried over very little of the Hindu tradition and given its express nontheism (with some exceptions, as with most things) is in direct conflict with the pantheon of Hindu deities. It's also more accurate to view both Hinduism and Buddhism as offshoots of the earlier Vedic and Shramana movements, which paralleled each other but took very different leads. In contrast, much of Christian tradition and practice (including, but not limited to, the format of services and layout of buildings) takes it lead from Judaism and then develops it further.
The similarities stop there. Christianity has a belief in a man was God, the fufillment of the mosaic law, no biblical holidays, a triune God, original sin, a new testament, hell, proselytizing, a savior, baptism, churches, etc. Do you think this is still the same as Judaism?

When do you draw the line between "religious movement" and "new religion with very different beliefs"?
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 24th 2012, 05:27 AM

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When do you draw the line between "religious movement" and "new religion with very different beliefs"?
I imagine it is kind of an arbitrary thing, and just depends on your agenda/viewpoint/etc. You can get into the opposite conundrum when you look at Mainstream Christianity and how it relates to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Puts Christianity on the opposite side of the question.
   
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 24th 2012, 06:58 PM

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I wouldn't go so far as to say the Christianity is a form of Judaism. Hasidic Judaism is a form a Judaism as is Reconstructionist Judaism. I think it would be more accurate to say that Christianity is a descendant of Judaism. Theologically, IMO, there is just too much difference between the two to call one a "form" of the other.
Perhaps I should have been clearer - I use "form" in a fairly loose sense, much in the same way as one would describe both cars and buses as forms of wheeled, road-going transport. I would view both Hasidic and Reconstructionist Judaism as being schools of thought or denominations rather than forms, as it seems to me a more precise description of their standing within the wider Jewish faith. As Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic faiths, and the foundation of all of these is the Jewish tradition, I see no issue with describing Christianity and Islam as being forms of Judaism in the sense set out above - without Judaism, neither of them would exist. It is a shared foundation; however divergent they may be on certain points of theology, it is ultimately the same God they believe in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBL87 View Post
However, you do have a very close connection and arguably a blending of the two in Messianic Judaism. Really, when Christianity first started it probably would have been accurate to call it a branch of the Jewish faith as the early church was primarily Jewish. However as both faiths have evolved in the last 2000 years, Christianity has definitely moved beyond being a "branch" of Judaism, in much the same way you wouldn't call the Lutheran denomination a form of the Catholicism, even though it is ultimately descended from the Roman Catholic Church.
See above. Also, I didn't call Christianity a "branch" of Judaism - I called it a "form", as defined above. Subtle difference, admittedly, but in this context especially an important one. Messianic Judaism is a bit of a peculiarity and one which probably complicates things more than it clarifies them - as you say, it is very much a blending of the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
The similarities stop there. Christianity has a belief in a man was God, the fufillment of the mosaic law, no biblical holidays, a triune God, original sin, a new testament, hell, proselytizing, a savior, baptism, churches, etc. Do you think this is still the same as Judaism?
Please point out where I actually said "Christianity is the same as Judaism". I do not believe I did, or say anything remotely close to that. Also, with respect, the similarities do not stop there as you allege - if they did, I would not have bothered using the phrase "among others" in my last post. I have been using the English language for quite a long time now, after all. You do raise some valid doctrinal differences; however, I would point out that different sects of Judaism also possess some of these traits. For example:
  • Christians still believe in the God of Abraham, and Jesus has not superseded or supplanted Him. I won't get into the specifics of the trinity here and now because it would take a while, but suffice it to say "a man was God" is not particularly accurate;
  • Gehenna, according to some readings, possesses traits similar to Purgatory and/or Hell;
  • Rabbi Asher Meza, an Orthodox rabbi, has actively encouraged conversion to Judaism and less strict denominations such as Reform and Conservative Judaism also permit converts, which entails some degree of implicit proselytism;
  • The traditional Jewish messiah is generally taken to be a saviour of some kind, be that in a physical sense (i.e. a leader) or a metaphysical one as Christianity has decreed;
  • Baptism is a development of the ritual immersion of tevilah, as practised (presumably) by John the Baptist; and
  • A church is based on a synagogue, which is hardly surprising given Christianity's first practitioners were Jews.
I trust that you can see from the above that the differences you highlight are perhaps not as insurmountable as you alleged.


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Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
When do you draw the line between "religious movement" and "new religion with very different beliefs"?
I don't see what relevance this has to the debate, if I'm being entirely honest. My use of the term "movement" in relation to the Vedic and Shramana movements is based on the standard accepted terminology for them - I apply no value judgement of my own to them. I would therefore appreciate if you do not infer one on my behalf. In any event, given how I have explained my application of the term "form" above I do not feel there is a conflict between saying Christianity is both a new religion and a form of Judaism. Historically speaking, it's quite accurate.


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 24th 2012, 10:33 PM

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Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
Perhaps I should have been clearer - I use "form" in a fairly loose sense, much in the same way as one would describe both cars and buses as forms of wheeled, road-going transport. I would view both Hasidic and Reconstructionist Judaism as being schools of thought or denominations rather than forms, as it seems to me a more precise description of their standing within the wider Jewish faith.
Typically, they're called movements.

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Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
As Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic faiths, and the foundation of all of these is the Jewish tradition, I see no issue with describing Christianity and Islam as being forms of Judaism in the sense set out above - without Judaism, neither of them would exist. It is a shared foundation; however divergent they may be on certain points of theology, it is ultimately the same God they believe in.
I just really don't get what you're saying. Yes, they all worship the same God but are different in practices. They're descendants of Judaism. This is a very strange use of the word "form". Christianity has pagan elements. Is it also a form of paganism?
[*]Rabbi Asher Meza, an Orthodox rabbi, has actively encouraged conversion to Judaism and less strict denominations such as Reform and Conservative Judaism also permit converts, which entails some degree of implicit proselytism;

That Rabbi guy is insane. I'm not exactly sure what he's trying to accomplish. Proselyting is definitely not a typical practice. Judaism is open to converts but there's no walking around giving out pamphlets and telling people they need to convert, except maybe by that guy. I remember a Jewish website promoting people to burn down the Spinx for idol worship. That's defiantly not a mainstream idea.

I'm pretty sure all movements of Judaism permit converts. It's a tradition to be denied a few times before being allowed to start the conversion process.

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Re: Don't Christians believe Jesus is the messiah of Judaism - April 25th 2012, 08:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
Typically, they're called movements.
The terms I used are equally as valid, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to throw that one in. It comes across as a bit patronising, which is not a good debating tactic against someone 10 years older than you.

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Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
I just really don't get what you're saying. Yes, they all worship the same God but are different in practices. They're descendants of Judaism.
With respect, you're arguing about semantics here. If you look at how I defined form and your use of descendents, we're actually in agreement. You seem to be very hung up on the choice of words, however, and I find that somewhat odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
This is a very strange use of the word "form". Christianity has pagan elements. Is it also a form of paganism?
Once again, your comparison is flawed. Christianity takes its core beliefs from the Jewish faith, with paganism influencing some parts of its early development and some regional practices but playing no further part therein (aside from nicking the odd holiday/feast day). Take paganism out of the equation and some form of Christianity would still exist; take Judaism out of the equation and it wouldn't. The comparison therefore fails.

Also, rather than merely arguing it's a 'very strange use of the word "form"', you could perhaps explain why you feel this is so. Given that I made reference to a widely-accepted use of the word in illustrating it, I feel this requires some explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
That Rabbi guy is insane. I'm not exactly sure what he's trying to accomplish. Proselyting is definitely not a typical practice. Judaism is open to converts but there's no walking around giving out pamphlets and telling people they need to convert, except maybe by that guy. I remember a Jewish website promoting people to burn down the Spinx for idol worship. That's defiantly not a mainstream idea.
Be that as it may, he is (as far as I am aware) as much a Jew as any of his peers. That means, as I said in my last post, the existence of such practices is not as incompatible with Judaism as you allege. Much as Christianity (and practically all major religions) is not one monolith of dogma but various different subdivisions, so the same applies to Judaism - and in some areas they will be closer to other religions than in others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Up In The Clouds View Post
I'm pretty sure all movements of Judaism permit converts. It's a tradition to be denied a few times before being allowed to start the conversion process.
Be that as it may (again), you have evaded the point I was making - conversion requires implicit proselytism by way of instruction in order for the convert to successfully adopt their new beliefs. Without this, conversion will not be possible.

Also, the practice of encouraging non-Jews to abide by the Noahide Laws is arguably a form of proselytism in itself - it may not be a change of religion, but proselytism also encompasses changing someone's opinion or practices, which this falls under. I agree it's not the same as people standing on street corners thumping the Bible, but it still qualifies as proselytism.

Also, with respect, the essay you provided a link to has a number of flaws in its argument. For one, its comparison of claims regarding early Christians being Jews with Martin Luther and other Protestants originally being Roman Catholics actually undermines his argument rather than supporting it (both Protestantism and Catholicism being branches of Christianity, after all). The refernece to Maccabees is equally flawed, as Zeus is the figurehead of a completely different, independent pantheon of gods and goddesses with no links to Judaism whatsoever. Christianity has quite clear links to Judaism, so again the argument falls flat on its face. The author of the website appears to have something of an axe to grind against Christianity, if I'm being honest, so I'm not sure it's the best source to use.


"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." - Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
RIP Nick
   
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