Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT)/Traditionalists Hell - Page 2

Of Mike and Men · 02:38 PM

In the meantime, I will say this, I didn't properly define aion, I thought by now it would be unnecessary. The word aion is used as age-lasting. So, it is indeed an adjective. I just say, "an age," because since this topic has been so thoroughly discussed, I didn't think it necessary to say otherwise. Though, if it even is the world eternal, annihilation, as you said, is eternal. The difference is the wicked are only told they will see death. While the righteous receive life. It seems inconsistent to think the NT writers meant death to mean, "eternal life while consciously suffering." You'd have to manipulate scripture far more to read death as anything but death. Especially when considering the OT.

BigBL87

Like I said, I honestly have an understanding of hell closer to what you describe than ECT. I'm just bringing up the Greek because with the words I discussed, it honestly seems like you are heavily reading your theology into them rather than taking it from them, which is why I asked the question about eternal life. You honestly kind of skirted the question with your answer about how/why we have eternal life. Again, for me this is more of a hermeneutical issue than it is a theological one.

Of Mike and Men

I didn't skirt

I'll respond later, like I said. I'm on my phone so it's a bit inconvenient to respond in depth. Can you explain how I read my theology into the text? Paul says the wages of sin is death. Not eternal conscious living torment. And that the gift of G-D is life, the ETERNAL spirit. But, I have an explanation based on Gehenna I'll get to later. Also, have you read the Fudge book? He is more or less an authority when it comes to annihilation. He goes into hermeneutics, the early Church, the OT, BY, etc.

BigBL87

Quote:

Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men

Can you explain how I read my theology into the text? .

I wasn't so much talking a specific instance as I was with this statement from you:

"For me, I believe it all depends on the context. However, I cannot find one instance in the NT which it is used to mean eternal. Now, let me clarify what I mean. I do not believe the word αἰώνιος can ever be proven to mean eternal, infinite, forever and ever, etc."

With that, and the fact that you subsequently stated that you think it means age lasting, does that mean that we do not inherit eternal life, and instead only inherit "age lasting" life, which is indefinite but finite?

Of Mike and Men · 09:38 PM

Okay, let me start from the beginning to explain myself clearer.

The word aionios, as you have correctly said, is an adjective. But, the age, however long it may be, is unspecified. The wicked may inherit and age that is less than that of the righteous. Which, is clearly the interpretation of the OT. You, as a bible student, probably won't need proof texts for this. The Old Testament is clear that the wicked will have a shortened life for their disobedience, while the righteous will endure a long life.

Now, let me ask you, before I move on: Many wicked people seem to prosper and live LONGER in this life. So, when the Old Testament speaks of this, could it not be they are mentioning the NEXT life? That their life will be cut short, while the righteous will live eternally?

I don't mean to sound brief with you, but this is an overall theme in scripture. The wicked do not live as long as the righteous. But, clearly this isn't the case in this age.

Anyways, we are speaking of two different words. In Matthew 25:46, the word used is aionios. Not aion. Aion is the word for age, which is where we get aionios. Ios is the suffix and it means pertaining to. Therefore, literally aionios means, "Pertaining to the age." It doesn't mean eternal. So, when it reads, "Aionios kolasis," it is pertaining the age of punishment that G-D has prescribed for the wicked.

But, even if we consider aionios, it is still an undefined amount of time. Certainly, it could mean eternal. I have no objection to this. And it in no way even means the wicked are tormented forever. I know you lean towards annihilationism, but I'm just being clear. Even if it were to mean forever, it just means their punishment (annihilation) is forever. Like the death punishment is the annihilation of this life. G-D, rather, destroys both body and soul.

The word we were most discussing though is the word used in the Revelation passage, aion, which means an age. But I still stand that I do not believe aionios can be proven to mean eternal.

So, this would then mean, when it says "eternal life," it is: "Pertaining to the age of life."

But, despite this, we have a clear picture in the OT that the wicked will lay waste, dead. They will perish, be destroyed etc. While, the righteous will come into life. Now, we enter into Revelation which tells us when G-D remakes the Heavens and the earth, there will be no more death. Therefore, if the righteous will be with G-D when this happens, they cannot die because there will be no more death.

Which, means that the wicked could not eternally be tormented if we are to interpret death as ECT.

Thus, we are told, essentially, that the righteous WILL live forever in the age of life. Not only by Prophecy, or scripture, but by logic. If our life is hidden with Christ in G-D, and we have received G-D's Spirit, then logically the age of life is eternal. While the age of punishment is death.

The confusion was in the Greek. I was on my phone so we were discussing aion and aionios. I assumed we were speaking of aion, so I'm sorry for the confusion. Hopefully this clears it up.

Of Mike and Men

Oh, and I forgot to mention, when Greek Literature has used aion, it has always meant a finite amount of time, to my knowledge, and they only ascribed eternity as "aidios" -- the word which I said means eternal. They ascribed aidios to G-D, while in the same writings would ascribe an aion to a man's life, and aionios. So, even in literature apart from the Bible it was used in the same way I am stating.